THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Flannel Boy on September 08, 2006, 07:30:24 PM
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(http://www.utsa.edu/today/images/lectures/dsouza.jpg)
WTF?
WTF indeed Dinesh D'Souza.
In his new book, The Enemy At Home, Dinesh D'Souza "shows" how liberals, like Bill Moyer (not making this up), are responsible for 9/11. How? Angering Muslims, as well as other religious people, with their liberal culture. Also by opposing George W. Bush they have encouraged Muslims to blame America for their problems. Example? Blaming America for America's invasion of Iraq. How silly!
Freedom and gay marriage are also to blame (lol not joking).
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127 (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127)
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good for him the racist fuck.
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He's brown, so he can't be racist.
I wouldn't trust somebody who looks that white to be brown.
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(http://www.djfl.de/entertainment/djfl/1015/101534b2.jpg)
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNSS??
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YOU MEAN THE LIBERALS THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN THE WHITE HOUSE???
ZING
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such a whitebread movie.
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YOU MEAN THE LIBERALS THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN THE WHITE HOUSE???
ZING
Seriously.
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This is a fair point; if America were a Paleo-Islamic Theocracy, we probably wouldn't have been attacked. Turn in your freedom fries, boys.
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MARK IT DOWN
APF HAS A POINT!
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e37/DiablosGA/libruls.jpg)
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Here's an essay from a few months ago outlining the basic argument. (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dsouza200407020030.asp)
Let us concede at the outset that in a free society freedom will often be used badly. The Islamic critics have a point when they deplore our high crime and illegitimacy rates and the triviality and vulgarity of our popular culture. Indeed some Americans may be tempted to say, "The Muslims have a point about Jerry Springer and Howard Stern. If they will agree to stop bombing our buildings, in exchange for us sending them Springer and Stern to do with as they wish, why not make the deal? We could even throw in some of Springer's guests."
...
By contrast, the theocratic and authoritarian society that Islamic fundamentalists advocate undermines the possibility of virtue. If the supply of virtue of insufficient in free societies, it is almost nonexistent in Islamic societies, because coerced virtues are not virtues at all. Consider the woman in Afghanistan or Iran who is required to wear the veil. There is no real modesty in this, because the woman is being compelled. Compulsion cannot produce virtue; it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue.
The implication is that women covering themselves from head to toe in public is a virtue. It just doesn't count when they're doing it to avoid a stoning. That's the creepy thing: D'Souza assumes that our society has (or should have) the same concept of "virtues" as an Islamist reading Qutb.
He's sort of giving the game away by pointing out the similarities between fundamentalist Islam and American fundamentalist Christianity, which is typically something liberals do. I don't think this book is going to be too popular on the right. They jumped all over root causes with the Abu Ghraib photo release issue, but that was a pretty narrow circumstance.
How come this isn't being published by Crown Forum, RH's conservative imprint?
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By contrast, the theocratic and authoritarian society that Islamic fundamentalists advocate undermines the possibility of virtue. If the supply of virtue of insufficient in free societies, it is almost nonexistent in Islamic societies, because coerced virtues are not virtues at all. Consider the woman in Afghanistan or Iran who is required to wear the veil. There is no real modesty in this, because the woman is being compelled. Compulsion cannot produce virtue; it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue.
I actually argued the exact same point with Fight For Freeform several years ago. He was going on about how Islamic societies are "more virtuous" than western ones, and how this is more pleasing to God, and I noted that virtue is only virtue when it's not coerced. The ends might be the same, but the means aren't (and hence the intent -- generally the largest moral component of an act imo -- is usually not); to a God that cared enough about our autonomy to endow us with free will, it only makes sense that freely chosen virtue is the only sort which would merit His approval. To that end, free societies are the ideal social structure for producing behavior pleasing to God. Of course, the occurrence of "bad" behavior in free societies is also inevitable, but I tend to look at it as a necessary evil for the above reasons. Separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. ;) :P
But it's funny that someone made the same exact point (and made it using far worse prose ;)), even if I'm certain that I wasn't nearly the first person to take note of the issue. I need to write a book. :P Mandark's point above is a different one, yet entirely valid as well.
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Eternal damnation is a tenet spawned by religious fundamentalism of any stripe. Most progressive branches of Christianity (and yes, even Islam) tend to consider hell an eternal separation from God and focus more on the positivistic aspects of faith and their God's love.
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Isn't this drifting close to the idea that any action (for which the possible effects are weighed) not taken is ultimately a coerced decision? If God isn't compelled to embrace every person eternally in heaven, then how is that consequence really coersion and not the effect of your own free will? (and if God is compelled in this way, you're arguing that God Himself doesn't have free will, which is kinda an odd path to take, because what force could be higher than the will of God?) Isn't that the choice modern religion presents us--the idea that we can either choose to accept the Godly way (or whatever the hell you want to call it) or not, and if you don't it's you who are pushing God from your life and not v/v? This is wholly different than, for example, arguing the obligtion of a state towards its citizens...
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(http://www.utsa.edu/today/images/lectures/dsouza.jpg)
WTF?
WTF indeed Dinesh D'Souza.
In his new book, The Enemy At Home, Dinesh D'Souza "shows" how liberals, like Bill Moyer (not making this up), are responsible for 9/11. How? Angering Muslims, as well as other religious people, with their liberal culture. Also by opposing George W. Bush they have encouraged Muslims to blame America for their problems. Example? Blaming America for America's invasion of Iraq. How silly!
Freedom and gay marriage are also to blame (lol not joking).
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127 (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127)
:lol
Wow, just wow. As an arab he should know exactly why many countries in the middle east (especially Iran) have been pissed at us
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Another thing that bugs me is in the description of the book, it lists "sexual liberty of women" as an abuse of freedom. He's sort of on the Leon Kass tip there. (http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001154.cfm) The idea that only women are having premarital, heterosexual sex is a bit improbable, but even these guys are reluctant to say "It's okay for men to do it, but the women should feel ashamed."
I actually argued the exact same point with Fight For Freeform several years ago. He was going on about how Islamic societies are "more virtuous" than western ones, and how this is more pleasing to God, and I noted that virtue is only virtue when it's not coerced.
That reminds me of an IRC conversation years ago. Paraphrased:
<Mandark> Oh boy, nrXic (http://www.fightforfreeform.com/oldname.html) just quoted a block of text from my Iraq post.
<Mandark> I'd rather he just stay out of it than have his support.
<Azih> There's nothing worse in those threads than having him or Refugee start agreeing with you.
<Mandark> I thought you were Refugee. You Muslims are hard to tell apart!
<Azih> That's true, Alpha.
<Mandark> :(
And you should totally do a book. Find one of your old Gamesquad-era posts, and cut it down by a third.
Phoenix Dark: He's not Arab. He's of Indian descent, from a Portuguese-language community.
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Loki, if a religious person avoids wickedness for fear of eternal damnation are his actions not coerced as well?
"Disobey me and face the most brutal violence imginable for all of eternity!"
Sounds like it to me.
Ideally a religious person does good things for two reasons: because they are in keeping with God's will, and thus pleasing to Him, and because he himself can see the merit in the action. I'm not a believer in doing things because you're afraid of "burning in Hell." Religious people who are actuated by such concerns aren't pious in the same way others are imo. But that's just me...
Are you telling me that religious followers don't consider their soul's fate when they choose a course of action?
I'm religious, and there are no such considerations made when I undertake most actions. I do things in keeping with my faith for two reasons, as mentioned above: one, I have been persuaded as to their wisdom/prudence by reflection; two, I have experienced the utility of said beliefs and the actions that accompany them in my own life, and so they come to have intrinsic merit (a posteriori).
And you should totally do a book. Find one of your old Gamesquad-era posts, and cut it down by a third.
:lol
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(http://www.utsa.edu/today/images/lectures/dsouza.jpg)
WTF?
WTF indeed Dinesh D'Souza.
In his new book, The Enemy At Home, Dinesh D'Souza "shows" how liberals, like Bill Moyer (not making this up), are responsible for 9/11. How? Angering Muslims, as well as other religious people, with their liberal culture. Also by opposing George W. Bush they have encouraged Muslims to blame America for their problems. Example? Blaming America for America's invasion of Iraq. How silly!
Freedom and gay marriage are also to blame (lol not joking).
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127 (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385510127)
:lol
Wow, just wow. As an arab he should know exactly why many countries in the middle east (especially Iran) have been pissed at us
you're a fucking idiot.
he isn't an arab.
anyway, are you people just now realizing how robotic this moron's defense of "conservatism" is?
for two decades, he's delivered the same spiel, the same mindless defense of white supremacy -- this is hardly new.
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god damn fucking 9/11 and me reading about it lately ><. I blame GAFs stupid thread.
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Dammit M Night Shamydong needs to stay out of politics
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I liked Unbreakable.
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I liked Unbreakable.
And Sixth Sense. The Village was my most anticipated movie of all time...and most disappointing of all time :(
Haven't seen Lady in the Water.
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I like Unbreakable too. APF, will you marry me (in a non-legal binding way, since gay marriage is wrong and we're conservatives)?
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I'm from Massachusetts :-* :-*