Himumumu goes to Mecca

[Powerslave]

^uhh that looks more like an hindu woman.

[Himu]

[Powerslave]

and now you removed it

[Himu]

wrong link

[youtube=425,350]gG_ijIckaSE[/youtube]

[Madrun Badrun]

Why do I feel like we'll be getting a "So I joined The Nation of Islam" thread in a week or two?




Also I love seeing Malek get all worked up 

A pox to you all, my nonexistent god is angry.

There are good reasons to have beliefs and there are bad reasons to have beliefs. There is evidence for beliefs and evidence against beliefs. There are beliefs that clash with reality and there are beliefs that don't. Don't pick and choose based on your personal preference. Life is not a buffet of beliefs. Don't choose the ones that taste good. Choose the ones that are correct.

Very wrong. 

[Himu]

I'm not going to join Nation of Islam. If I'm going to become a Muslim, it will be orthodoxed Sunni.

CNN report on Muslim converts

[youtube=425,350]PN-EfgU7PW4[/youtube]

[brawndolicious]

why sunni?

and NoI are pretty radical and stupid.  at least they were when elijah mohammed was in charge, I don't know what it's like right now.

[Phoenix Dark]

why sunni?

and NoI are pretty radical and stupid.  at least they were when elijah mohammed was in charge, I don't know what it's like right now.

Well the NBPP pulled a gun on me a few years ago, so yeah...they're still radical. Just irrelevent

[captainbiotch]

Stop searching for another dumbass myth to fill the holes in your life theories and use your brain.

[Himu]

why sunni?

and NoI are pretty radical and stupid.  at least they were when elijah mohammed was in charge, I don't know what it's like right now.

Well, aren't 85% of muslims sunni? I just figure Sunni because my chances of being sunni do to the statistics like that are high.

Not that there's anything wrong with Shia

[Himu]

I am going to a Mosque tomorrow during final prayer, and I will be speaking to the Imam when they are done. We'll see where it goes from there.

[TVC15]

Oh Himumu, this is tragic.  There's nothing quite so sad as a grown man turning towards religion, not even out of tragedy, but out of interest.  I can understand indoctrination happening in the wake of death, or during chronic illness, or during other extremely trying times, but for a man at full capacity to desire baseless belief is, well, sad, and even more tragically, the probable cause of many of the shitty problems with the world.  You weren't raised in these things, so rejection should be easy, but you are apparently looking for some sort of set of answers, and instead of looking for yourself, you are going with what is easy even though it is irrational.

[brawndolicious]

you should probably research it more himu than just looking at the statistics.

and tvc, this makes more sense than becoming faithful after death or tragedy.  he's already indoctrinated into faith and now he's just looking at other ways of practicing that.  I have no doubt that if he finds that it doesn't match his opinion then he'll reject it.

[TVC15]

you should probably research it more himu than just looking at the statistics.

and tvc, this makes more sense than becoming faithful after death or tragedy.  he's already indoctrinated into faith and now he's just looking at other ways of practicing that.  I have no doubt that if he finds that it doesn't match his opinion then he'll reject it.

It doesn't make any sense.

I'm losing faith, thus I'm interested in Islam, another monotheistic religion. I want to test the waters and see if it's for me.

He is losing faith, and instead of looking at more rational and intellectual explanations, he seeks to drug himself with another sourse of the same delusion.  Fate, not faith, has gifted him with a chance to break free, but instead he looks to quickly bond himself to a new dealer.  What he is doing, in short, is against nature.  Enjoy your new artifice, himumu.

[brawndolicious]

I also disagree with having faith but this is what people usually do when they question their faith.

[TVC15]

I also disagree with having faith but this is what people usually do when they question their faith.

And talking to an Imam isn't a good place to look for answers if you are on the edge.  He's just going to tell Himuro what Himuro wants to hear:  Islam has the answers.  It will be some variation of that.  It would be similar to me telling Himuro to go talk to a Philosophy professor for answers.  It's a shortcut, a shitty shortcut.

I, as always, suggest reading.  If you have faith and believe Islam, then faith will come to you effortlessly; then go talk to the Imam.  Do not use him as a "salesperson," because he will only tell you what you want to hear.

If you are interested in going it on your own (brotherhood be damned; we are in this thing alone), I'd suggest starting with Sartre's Existentialism and Human Emotions.  Turning away from religion is easy for people with a fraction of a brain, it is finding a way to fill the gaps that is difficult.  Existentialism will not fill the gaps, it is not a prescriptive philosophy, but it is a useful philosophy, and for many, it opens up a whole world of meaning outside of religion.  A whole world of actually useful meaning.

I went through a crisis of faith as a teenager.  I rejected religion when I was about 12.  When I started pursing intellectual things when I was 18, it became apparent I would have to address the faith and religion issue.  While not offering a ready-made, pre-baked solution, I credit Sartre for making me the best possible Seeker that I could be. 

So, himumu, you don't have to take my suggestion--there are many other roads and paths out there, all of them more worthwhile than Abrahamic religion--but don't think that the first "answer" is the best one.  Question everything.  Do not talk to the Imam if you consider yourself emotionally in a position where you can be taken advantage of, wanting to get drunk off blind faith like the old days.  I just ask you to read.  Read every sentence over and over and over, and do not move on until you understand it.  That's kind of my little rule in life.

[MCD]

And remember, in Islam, you can't just go Muslim one day and then abandon it the day after.

well, yes you can do that but the Muslims around you may not take it lightly, so think carefully.

[Himu]

TVC: I don't know if it's the answer or not. I am getting the Qu'ran and going to a mosque today. When I finish reading the Qu'ran, and all of the reading material I am currently gathering - from comparing Christianity, Judaism, and Islam; to hardcore OPPOSITION to Islam so I hear their views; to different points of view entirely. I am sure I will know if it is for me after all of that. I am far from becoming an Muslm so don't sweat it.

And talking to an Imam isn't a good place to look for answers if you are on the edge.  He's just going to tell Himuro what Himuro wants to hear:  Islam has the answers.  It will be some variation of that.

Well, I'd PREFER talking to a convert which is why I'm going to an Imam. He will most likely direct me to other converts at the mosque so they can tell me their story and if Islam is for me.

Reading Jack Chick related stuff.

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/default.asp

And remember, in Islam, you can't just go Muslim one day and then abandon it the day after.

well, yes you can do that but the Muslims around you may not take it lightly, so think carefully.

In America, you can leave your faith freely.

[Van Cruncheon]

yeah, trading christianity in for islam seems like a total non-event; like trading in a rusty ford for a rusty chevy. in the end, what difference does it make, other than the very temporary novelty of pointing out you have a different ride?

[Mandark]

[youtube=425,350]dJd3MgIcbnA[/youtube]

.

[FlameOfCallandor]

yeah, trading christianity in for islam seems like a total non-event; like trading in a rusty ford for a rusty chevy. in the end, what difference does it make, other than the very temporary novelty of pointing out you have a different ride?

That about sums it up.

[Himu]

Picked up the Qu'ran and a guide to American Muslims while Xmas shopping today.

[demi]

now you can threaten jihad on those evil godless taco bell workers at the drive-thru

[Himu]

Well, not really. Jihad means inner struggle, it does not mean holy war.

[demi]

durka durka burrito

[Himu]

give me a chalupa or i will commit jihad against your fine mexican establishment

[Himu]

give me a chalupa or i will commit jihad against your fine mexican establishment

[youtube=425,350]dJd3MgIcbnA[/youtube]

.

what is this from 

[Himu]

I went to the Mosque located in my town tonight. It was a pretty pleasant experience. I thought the way they prayed to be absolutely beautiful. After they prayed I talked to the Imam and we both agreed that I should read the Qu'ran before making my decision. He and a few Muslims gave me multiple pamphlets regarding the religion and told me various phrases and traditions I should know - such as how to treat the Qu'ran - you never put it on the ground since it is a holy book, and also things like "In Sha'Allah" (which translated to If God Wills) which is what Muslims say when discussing future events since we do not know if we will arise tomorrow or not.

It was an overall pleasant experience. The people were very understanding, thoughtful, and extremely friendly. It was amazing how friendly they were. Every time a Muslim walked into the Mosque he shook every single person in the vicinity's hand. I don't think I've ever seen nor experienced such hospitality in a church but this just goes to prove my theory that Muslims all treat everyone as brothers. I truly did not feel like I did not belong there.

This Friday I will be going back at 8:00 am and maybe 1:40 pm. They told me that they will be celebrating a once a year activity and I figured I could go ahead and go. In the mean while I am studying Christianity and Islam so I can make my choice between the two. My father is supportive in my decision to find what is for me, but I can tell he does not want me to leave Christianity and gave me a good talk about Jesus Christ and the meaning behind Christianity's revering of him, something I just don't agree on.

Over all it's been a nice day. I'm currently reading this before I dive into the Qu'ran.

[TVC15]

You do Barnum proud, Himumu.  I hope you find the answers you are looking for; on the other hand I am disappointed that ou have illustrated that you would rather have thinking done for you than to exhibit control over your own life.  I guess the world requires all kinds.  Keep in mind that I'll still be content when you are having your next crisis of faith, in a few years.

[Van Cruncheon]

you really ARE shopping for a religion! if you're in it for the superficial trappings -- the prayers, the lore, the ritual -- why not just observe it from afar?

[demi]

they are like brothers? do you really miss GAF that much? :x

[TVC15]

I like how it's between christianity and islam.  Those are the only 2 paths worth following in Himumu's world!

As I just said to someone else:

I am respectful of religious people, but I'll have no pity on people like Himumu.  He has been given an opportunity to explore every option for fulfillment in the world, and instead he decides to walk back into a church.  I'm not sure people come much dumber.  In a decade he'll be a born again christian.

[Himu]

I'm not shopping for a religion. I agree with pretty much every single thing I've learned about Islam so far, I just don't know if I agree with all of it. What is wrong with noticing something eloquent and important like praying?

[Van Cruncheon]

is it eloquent and important? or is it just a paint job you react to?

[Himu]

I like how it's between christianity and islam.  Those are the only 2 paths worth following in Himumu's world!

As I just said to someone else:

I am respectful of religious people, but I'll have no pity on people like Himumu.  He has been given an opportunity to explore every option for fulfillment in the world, and instead he decides to walk back into a church.

What other faith should I choose? I believe in only one God, I am not atheist nor agnostic.

[TVC15]

I agree with pretty much every single thing I've learned about Islam so far, I just don't know if I agree with all of it.

This is what we call a non sequitor.

[Van Cruncheon]

why choose a specific faith?

[Himu]

Why not? I've studied through all the various faiths for the past year and a half. As of now, I identify with Islam the most.

[TVC15]

Why are you so caught up in ceremony?  Why not go for a form of religious humanism?  You clearly have not even looked at all SPIRITUAL options.  Nope, islam and christianity, those are the only two religions in the world!

[Van Cruncheon]

because if you have an intellectually vigorous mind, you'll find nothing of worth in ritual and dogma?

[TVC15]

Why is Islam the one, Himumu?  Why not any of the zillion flavors of Christianity?  Why not Judaism?  Why not Bahai?  Why not one of the monistic forms of Hindu?  Sikhism (that is monotheistic, right?)?  Zoroasterism?

If you want to expand your definition of god, why not more eastern mysticisms, like buddhism or taoism?

[Van Cruncheon]

and what if you pick the wrong one, huh?

[demi]

God is in the drive-thru speaker

[Van Cruncheon]

"i'd like a religion that has the cultural outsider status that is appropriate for my self-aggrandized sense of personal uniqueness, but with the history and ceremony necessary to validate it -- and please don't recommend any boring old flavors of christianity, they're so, so, so unexciting"

"would you like fries with that?"

[brawndolicious]

it doesn't seem to me like he's the type to get convinced because of the way they pray or anything.  if he does convert, it'd probably be because he agrees with the five tenets of islam and  since at that point islam would be the closest religion that he agrees with, he'll believe in that and then decide on every other issue for himself.  that's how another muslim convert I know of thinks (like I said before he doesn't announce his beliefs to everybody).  also himu, don't debate islam with anybody who is not a convert or that you do not know.  I never tried it that hard but it might turn into a "because the quran says so" type of thing.

and prole, I doubt he'll be too enthusiastic about the ceremony aspect of it.  there's like 20 holy days where you're mourning somebodies death and 2 holy days where you're supposed to be happy.  surely there will be some culture shift there.

[Barry Egan]

Valis -

"In the average church, all you get is talk. There is no meditation and no spiritual discipline. They
interminably tell God what to do, as if He did not know. Then they tell the people what to do, as if
they could do what they're told, or even wanted to. Then they sing religious nursery rhymes. And then,
to cap it all, the Roman Catholic Church which at least had an unintelligible service that was real
mysterious and suggested vast goings on went on to put the service into bad English. They took away
incense, and became essentially a bunch of Protestants, and so now even the Catholics are at loose
ends. As Clare Boothe Luce said, "It is no longer possible to practice contemplative prayer at mass."
You are being advised, exhorted, and edified all the time, and that becomes a bore. Think of God,
listening to all those prayers. Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit. It is just awful; people have no
consideration for God at all."

[TVC15]

it doesn't seem to me like he's the type to get convinced because of the way they pray or anything.  if he does convert, it'd probably be because he agrees with the five tenets of islam and  since at that point islam would be the closest religion that he agrees with, he'll believe in that and then decide on every other issue for himself.  that's how another muslim convert I know of thinks (like I said before he doesn't announce his beliefs to everybody).  also himu, don't debate islam with anybody who is not a convert or that you do not know.  I never tried it that hard but it might turn into a "because the quran says so" type of thing.

and prole, I doubt he'll be too enthusiastic about the ceremony aspect of it.  there's like 20 holy days where you're mourning somebodies death and 2 holy days where you're supposed to be happy.  surely there will be some culture shift there.

But he clearly is affected by the way they pray, and the ceremony, and he clearly has not looked into other faiths, let along other belief systems.

He still has yet to say why Islam is attractive to him outside of fundamentally superficial things.

My theory, simplified, is that he is just looking for somewhere he will feel like he belongs, the sense of being a part of a group.

[Himu]

it doesn't seem to me like he's the type to get convinced because of the way they pray or anything.  if he does convert, it'd probably be because he agrees with the five tenets of islam and  since at that point islam would be the closest religion that he agrees with, he'll believe in that and then decide on every other issue for himself. 

I already agree with the five pillars of Islam.

[Himu]

it doesn't seem to me like he's the type to get convinced because of the way they pray or anything.  if he does convert, it'd probably be because he agrees with the five tenets of islam and  since at that point islam would be the closest religion that he agrees with, he'll believe in that and then decide on every other issue for himself.  that's how another muslim convert I know of thinks (like I said before he doesn't announce his beliefs to everybody).  also himu, don't debate islam with anybody who is not a convert or that you do not know.  I never tried it that hard but it might turn into a "because the quran says so" type of thing.

and prole, I doubt he'll be too enthusiastic about the ceremony aspect of it.  there's like 20 holy days where you're mourning somebodies death and 2 holy days where you're supposed to be happy.  surely there will be some culture shift there.

But he clearly is affected by the way they pray, and the ceremony, and he clearly has not looked into other faiths, let along other belief systems.

He still has yet to say why Islam is attractive to him outside of fundamentally superficial things.

My theory, simplified, is that he is just looking for somewhere he will feel like he belongs, the sense of being a part of a group.

Read what Chipopo posted. These are things that make a huge difference. Maybe not to you, but they are far from superficial. At the final prayer, all they did was pray to god for 10 minutes, and left. No bullshit, just praising God. That appeals to me. What the hell is wrong with that? That is a huge difference from going to church for 2-3 hours singing nursery rhymes and rolling your eyes at the fact people praise Jesus instead of GOD.

[TVC15]

That is the dumbest thing you've said in this entire thread.  The arcane factor, the mysteriousness of a religious service is NOT superficial?  It's the most superficial thing of all!  By your definition, the Mysterious Rite at the orgy in Eyes Wide Shut must be the most RELIGIOUS thing of all since it is nearly incomprehensible.  Sound and fury, sound and fury.

[Van Cruncheon]

"In the average church, all you get is talk. There is no meditation and no spiritual discipline. They
interminably tell God what to do, as if He did not know. Then they tell the people what to do, as if
they could do what they're told, or even wanted to. Then they sing religious nursery rhymes. And then,
to cap it all, the Roman Catholic Church which at least had an unintelligible service that was real
mysterious and suggested vast goings on went on to put the service into bad English. They took away
incense, and became essentially a bunch of Protestants, and so now even the Catholics are at loose
ends. As Clare Boothe Luce said, "It is no longer possible to practice contemplative prayer at mass."
You are being advised, exhorted, and edified all the time, and that becomes a bore. Think of God,
listening to all those prayers. Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit. It is just awful; people have no
consideration for God at all."

and yet either way -- proselytic or esoteric -- it matters for nothing, since there are few phrases in this world more fundamentally meaningless (and possibly oxymoronic) than "spiritual discipline"

[TVC15]

I agree with the rules of fight club.  Let's worship!

[Van Cruncheon]

given the vast diversity of monotheistic religions, and the even more diverse rituals and ceremony adopted by each sect beneath them, which one do you think god likes best, himu, and why

[brawndolicious]

I personally am not sure how to deal with people having a crisis of faith.  I became an atheist just because I thought if there was a god, he wouldn't be dumb enough to have us choose a religion or else he would have us unable to comprehend the stupidity of that situation (if he was a sadist that just wanted to see us argue and war over religions).  and I went from there figuring go with science.  by that I mean I was figuring out what sorts of things should make sense to me then (scientifically and philosophically).  this of course happened over about year long period that I was deciding whether or not to have a conscience for the rest of my life and become a psychopath.  eventually I came to terms with the fact that there was no easy answer to achieving an identity you're satisfied with and now I feel I need physical proof of a god in order to believe in it.  that moment probably made me the happiest I've ever been in my life.

I figure most converts convert because they thoroughly studied islam and believe it questions their faith in the best way.  which is kind of a stupid thing and I won't sugarcoat that but you can't change somebody's opinion of having that sort of faith.

at the end of the day, we can't change any of his religious opinions.  this is the way he wants to research faith around the world, then we can't change that.  you're thinking about it backwards in my opinion tvc and prole.  you can't deconvert somebody unless they decide to.  it just does not happen.  they can be the most laid back and "open minded" guy ever, you can't just go up to them and explain a bunch of great science and philosophy against religion and have them stop believing in religion.  at least not when they're at a stage where they're considering conversion.

[Van Cruncheon]

i'm not trying to deconvert him, habib; he hasn't converted yet. if he has in fact converted, then WHY IS HE BRINGING IT UP i ask

[TVC15]

I'm not trying to deconvert him, am nintenho.  I'm not trying to give him answers; I'm just tring to make him recognize that he's done an inadequate job of looking around, and he appears to have picked one religion because, pardon the expression, he is judging a nun by the length of her habit; a completely shallow judgement.

[brawndolicious]

at this point, it's obvious that he has faith and you can't really take that out of a person.  people are pretty black and white on that.

[TVC15]

at this point, it's obvious that he has faith and you can't really take that out of a person.  people are pretty black and white on that.

I don't think any of us know anything about faith.  I do know that faith leads to any of a multitude of religions, and monotheism is the only thing Himu has said that leads him to Islam.  Five pillars, ten commandments, all very believable rules--all religions have generally agreeable tenets at their core, so the alone aren't the reason you pick one religion over another.  Ceremony and how faith are publicly displayed are as superficial as skin and clothing, and very little that is important is taken solely due to the attractiveness of its cover.  I'm still waiting for the number one question's answer:  why islam? 

[MCD]

why islam? 

Because he believes in one god and agree to the rules of Islam?

[TVC15]

why islam? 

Because he believes in one god and agree to the rules of Islam?

The 5 pillars aren't really anything that unique, aside from the praying thing.  As I said about the ten commandments and fight club, agreeing with the rules is not everything.  I am willing to bet that Himu agrees with the rules of Bahai, too.  Why not Bahai?  Because he hasn't looked into it.  He is not making an educated decision.