Socialism sucks

[TVC15]

I wish all the Republicans would die so there would be less war coverage on TV and more My Favorite Martian.

[Ganhyun]

Father Mike, I understand you've used the system, and I openly admitted the current system America has isnt a good one either. I'm just making a point that the link is from actual Canadians like yourself. 

My wrath was at The Card Cheat, who goes out of his way in threads to irritate me in some way.

[Ganhyun]

I'm not as charismatic, sadly.   

Well, keep working at it, you can do it. If thats what you want.

[Beardo]

I wish all the Republicans would die so there would be less war coverage on TV and more My Favorite Martian.

 
Republicans wish there was no war coverage.

[TVC15]

I wish all the Republicans would die so there would be less war coverage on TV and more My Favorite Martian.

 
Republicans wish there was no war coverage.

[youtube=425,350]Xwy-ZzPQw6o[/youtube]

[Eric P]

my mother the car is better!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Mother_the_Car

[Human Snorenado]

Socialist: raising the top tax rate from 35% to 39%

Free-Market: nationalizing the banks, massive investment in insurance agencies, limiting certain types of trades, raising the debt ceiling, and promoting government investment into stocks and bonds. And an emphasis on Red States.

It’s all so clear now!

[Beardo]

Socialist: raising the top tax rate from 35% to 39%

Free-Market: nationalizing the banks, massive investment in insurance agencies, limiting certain types of trades, raising the debt ceiling, and promoting government investment into stocks and bonds. And an emphasis on Red States.

It’s all so clear now!

Socialist: Government uses force to take your money and give it to dirty lazy hippies and lazy homeless people.

Free-Market: Its your hard earned money do what you wish with it as long as you dont infringe anyone elses rights.

[MrAngryFace]

Must be neat living in a world of impossible extremes

[Madrun Badrun]

Father Mike, I understand you've used the system, and I openly admitted the current system America has isnt a good one either. I'm just making a point that the link is from actual Canadians like yourself. 

My wrath was at The Card Cheat, who goes out of his way in threads to irritate me in some way.

People that are vocal tend to be the ones dissatisfied of against something. 

Only a very small, and I mean small minority of Canadians think medicare is a bad thing.  We all think it needs a good overhaul, and soon,  but we will never get rid of it. 

I have no idea where this false dilemma of comes from where people think it's pure socialism to want public healthcare.  Do you think anyone who says having public schools means your a socialist? 

[duckman2000]

wow, so actual Canadians giving testimony to their experience in the Canadian healthcare system means shit to you doesnt it? Go take your shit somewhere else hippie.

You read things, and you believe them. Fine, we all do that. But then you actually use your extensive knowledge on the topic as a base for argument. Well, we all do that too. But at some point, most of us know well enough to sit down and shut up about it when in the presence of people who know more. That is apparently an ability that you just plain lack. Go live somewhere else for a while, get some experience with these strange ideals and how they affect the daily lives of the people who live under these systems, and then make your argument for or against. Or by all means, stick to what you're doing now, but at least realize that you don't really know anything.

Father Mike, I understand you've used the system, and I openly admitted the current system America has isnt a good one either. I'm just making a point that the link is from actual Canadians like yourself. 

My wrath was at The Card Cheat, who goes out of his way in threads to irritate me in some way.

People that are vocal tend to be the ones dissatisfied of against something. 

Only a very small, and I mean small minority of Canadians think medicare is a bad thing.  We all think it needs a good overhaul, and soon,  but we will never get rid of it. 

I have no idea where this false dilemma of comes from where people think it's pure socialism to want public healthcare.  Do you think anyone who says having public schools means your a socialist? 

To some guys, it's always going to be Freedom Fries vs Communist. It must be nice to have such a clear cut, easily embraced or rejected view of things. It's just a shame that's not how things really are.

[Eric P]

I have no idea where this false dilemma of comes from where people think it's pure socialism to want public healthcare.  Do you think anyone who says having public schools means your a socialist? 

i could name a few gaffers

[Ganhyun]

wow, so actual Canadians giving testimony to their experience in the Canadian healthcare system means shit to you doesnt it? Go take your shit somewhere else hippie.

You read things, and you believe them. Fine, we all do that. But then you actually use your extensive knowledge on the topic as a base for argument. Well, we all do that too. But at some point, most of us know well enough to sit down and shut up about it when in the presence of people who know more. That is apparently an ability that you just plain lack. Go live somewhere else for a while, get some experience with these strange ideals and how they affect the daily lives of the people who live under these systems, and then make your argument for or against. Or by all means, stick to what you're doing now, but at least realize that you don't really know anything.

To some guys, it's always going to be Freedom Fries vs Communist. It must be nice to have such a clear cut, easily embraced or rejected view of things. It's just a shame that's not how things really are.

how about you go fuck yourself? nowhere in that post was anything directed to you or at you. The Card Cheat can take up for himself just fine, and has done so plenty of times, lol. You showing up and being a pretentious ass just makes you more of a prick. Also, apparantly you didnt fully read the post, or you'd see that the part about it being from Canadians was directed to Card Cheat, not Father mike.

[Ganhyun]

Do you think anyone who says having public schools means your a socialist? 

Well, Federally funded schools dont work.  The schools are given a list of things that HAVE to be covered or they lose their federal money, which basically kills the school if that happens.  The problem? The American school system is broken already. Teachers have no way to force students to learn. This is a combination of many things. Lack of ability to discipline students. The decay of parental guidance on the importance of school. And many more such things.

Private schools run much better and have a much better graduation rate and college acceptance percentage than public schools. But then again, the big difference between the two? One has federal guidelines they have to follow and try and teach each quarter/semester/year, whereas the other is a pay to attend and thus makes parents much more liekyl to be concerned with their child's schooling.

But federally funded schools are technically a social program.

[Tieno]

Gayhun are your nightmares filled with commies?

[TVC15]

I think it's awesome that in the same year, we are going to get both Chinese Democracy and American Communism.  They've both been a long time comin'.

[Human Snorenado]

I think it's awesome that in the same year, we are going to get both Chinese Democracy and American Communism.  They've both been a long time comin'.

 

I still won't believe Chinese Democracy is coming out until I see it in a Best Buy.

[brawndolicious]

Posting that list and trying to start a discussion about it is stupid.  I don't know of any western country with socialist principles that is remotely like that and it's obvious that a US president in 2008 isn't going to either fully embrace socialism or capitalism.  I want a president that is at least willing to admit that economically, both ideas suck.  You need a little of each with a shitload of original thought.

This socialist owns four guns.  There goes that theory.

But minorities are the victim of gun violence at a far greater rate than whites. Why do you hate minorities?
SMH

But whites are at far greater risk of suicide by gun.  Why do you hate yourself so much?

Also, I believe that Berkeley only kicked out the Marines' recruiters.  Teens in Berkeley either go to a ivy league school or a ghetto school, so not a lot of people are going to believe the recruiters' bullshit about how badass you could be with a computer job NOWHERE NEAR IRAQ.  I've never seen anybody it Berkeley dislike the whole Marine corps but everybody of course hated the Iraq war ever since it started.

It also makes no sense to say private schools are better because of graduation rates or college acceptance rates.  Having a universal curriculum should be the main priority.  Texan history textbook publishers are lobbied not to say that the battle at the Alamo was a fight for slavery.  That's sort of an important event during the time period mainly because of the reason it happened but Texans don't wanna know that!  Darkies are OUR FREINDZZZZ!

Copy and paste that problem 50 times and you see a not so neglible problem.  You need to teach students that there are more shocking "sins" than a dude sucking another dude.  That means that either the school's curriculum has to actually teach kids something or you need to show the kids 2girls1cup every day.  For 12 years.

[max_cool]

Do you think anyone who says having public schools means your a socialist? 

Well, Federally funded schools dont work.  The schools are given a list of things that HAVE to be covered or they lose their federal money, which basically kills the school if that happens.  The problem? The American school system is broken already. Teachers have no way to force students to learn. This is a combination of many things. Lack of ability to discipline students. The decay of parental guidance on the importance of school. And many more such things.

Private schools run much better and have a much better graduation rate and college acceptance percentage than public schools. But then again, the big difference between the two? One has federal guidelines they have to follow and try and teach each quarter/semester/year, whereas the other is a pay to attend and thus makes parents much more liekyl to be concerned with their child's schooling.

But federally funded schools are technically a social program.

I'm sure the disparity  in performance among private and public schools has nothing to do with wealth inequalities and everything to do with the evil gubment. I mean, a single mother should be able to work two jobs and provide as high of quality of care and education to her child/children as a family that has two parents, only one of whom works because he/she makes enough to support them all. Obviously the single mother is just lazy.

[MrAngryFace]

Teachers really need to get paid more, for starters. I mean their classrooms are overloaded, in some cases they have to buy supplies from their own pocket for the kids, AND the govt requires that they take tests constantly to validate their existence. Not just that, but you dont get paid shit until you have like a goddamned masters, and this is gradeschool level crap. Its really stupid what is asked of teachers. No wonder they burn the fuck out in 2 years and quit.

[MrAngryFace]

You'd think from what all republicans say Obama was PURE SOCIALISM.

[Van Cruncheon]

the republican fear of socialism is an implicit acknowledgment that they themselves are not elite material

[Beardo]

I wonder how much michael moore would cost the canadian healthcare system if he lived there.

[laesperanzapaz]

wow what a shithold of a thread

i still welcome you conservativs among our fold

in any case, i despise unflinching conservatives such as yoruself just as i despies unflinching liberals.

i learned through life that i don't really have the patience for people who put ideology over this complex, gritty thing called 'reality'

- it's so amusing to see conservatives are comparing Cuban/NK-style Stalinist socialism with European/Canadian notions of welfare democracy, or socialist democracy.  Does it make sense if I compare your RonPaulian libertarian right wing paradise with Nazi Germany?

- conservatives proudly and smugly boast against the evils of too much presence of the government.  Yet they quickly deny or - more often, do not mention at all the evils of too much control from the private corporation...whose influence can be just as good or bad as government.  Government answers to the people.  I will repeat this:

Pros:
Government elected by the people and governed by agreed-upon rules - Constitution, laws, etc - exists by the people, for the people. 

Similarly, private entities compete to bring the best fruits of competition, and results in wonderful, groundbreaking advances in many many industries, for the benefit of society in general.


Yet, as with reality, as with life, there are the dark sides, when it is taken too far:
- Government in excess can take you to China, or places where Govt has too much power. To the detriment of society.

- Private entities can also have too much power, to the detriment of society.  In the US, see the health care, or teh broadband 'progress' [lol] to name just a few, to see this in effect.


There's a saying: A libertarian is the political opposite of the communist, and just as braindead. 

Lemme ask you this: what do a libetarian, and a communist, and fundamentalist Christian, fundamentalist atheist, a racist, a sexist, a hardcore modernist, or a pure traditionalist have in common?

Answer: they put ideology over reality.  When things don't pan out as they first predicted, they blame what's happening around them to avoid compromising their little walled garden of simple rules, unbreakable concepts, and clean theories.

Now, there's a ton of liberals at GAF, and at Evilbore, and I don't agree with alot of what they may say.  This is why I am at heart, a moderate.  I believe in the greatness of capitalism, yet greed - the engine of capitalism - sometimes involves in breaking the rules to the significant detriment of others, and sometimes collective means - what you call socialism - is necessary.



And as a parting note: it's so nice you use convenient labels like 'socialism.'  And i agree - it is arguably socialist elements in things like UHC.  So how about I return the favor and label your conservative lbieratarian principles as 'social darwinism?'  I'm sure it's only fair, no?

[huckleberry]

The reason UHC is such a big issue is because health care is prohibitively expensive for those who don't have insurance. The summer before my second year of college, I got in a bike accident on my way to work. Banged up my chin pretty bad, but nothing major. I went to the local hospital and got stitched up, and they gave me a precautionary X-Ray. I was in and out in about an hour. Then a month later, I got a bill for something like $2200. My insurance claim was denied, because university insurance only covered me while school was in session, and my father had been laid off from Oracle due to downsizing, so we didn't have family insurance.

Do you know how much it sucks to not have health coverage? $2200 for some stitches and an X-Ray. It would have taken me a month and a half at the job I had then to make that money. What if it had been something major, like my appendix bursting? I'd have been looking at a bill of over $20,000, easily. Do you know that $20,000 is more than you'd make in a year on a minimum wage job? It's half of what a normal entry level college grad makes before taxes. This is for one procedure. It's fucking outrageous. Meanwhile, Big Pharma makes tens of billions of dollars in profit annually, and the hospital industry makes tens of billions more, and we pay twice what other countries pay for the same care. Fuck that.

I'll go out on a limb and say that anyone who says we don't need UHC gets pretty good coverage from their employer, university or parents.

You are obviously a dirty poor librul....jesus, get a job and then you can have some health insurance.

[MrAngryFace]

Didnt you hear, McCain will give you a WHOLE 5000 dollars to buy health insurance.

[brawndolicious]

I agree with the conservatives that a completely socialist system would be bad because if the government is capable of giving you everything that you want, then it's also capable of take everything away from you.  The best system would be the government only giving you what you need to reach the career that you want (as long as it's realistic).  Giving government-funded healthcare and education makes society makes society a lot more stable.

[laesperanzapaz]

i support only practical, most basic services being mandated and provided by govt

such as basic education [however you define that is up for debate]
and basic health care [ditto]
the military [again, up for debate as to the extent of militarization we really need]
i'm sure i'm missing something else, but that all i can come up right now

the fact is, if the individualist approach results in most or all people getting collectively screwed in the name of outcompeting each other, then the collectivist approach is the answer.  It's really basic Economics 101. I believe you call it the Prisoner's dilemma.

[Fresh Prince]

I'm not quite sure what this threads supposed to be about. Most of the people on the left know that communism and to a lesser extent socialism does not work thank to the failure of the USSR. And if the recent finacial crisis has shown us unrestrained capatilism does not work either.

Most rational people realise you need a mix between socialism and capatilism for a functioning democracy.

[Mandark]

Private schools run much better and have a much better graduation rate and college acceptance percentage than public schools. But then again, the big difference between the two? One has federal guidelines they have to follow and try and teach each quarter/semester/year, whereas the other is a pay to attend and thus makes parents much more liekyl to be concerned with their child's schooling.

No, the big difference is that the students at private schools come from families that can afford to send their kids to private schools.

There is an absolutely huge correlation between class* and academic success no matter what type of school.  It's crazy disingenuous to act like private schools get a higher graduation rate out of their trust fund kids than inner city schools get out of their welfare cases because of the Invisible Hand of the Market.



*Income/wealth of the parents, along with wealth of the grandparents and income/wealth of the classmates' parents being used as the closest proxy of "class".

[demi]

Didnt you hear, McCain will give you a WHOLE 5000 dollars to buy health insurance.

Health Insurance? That's a big screen TV and a whole ton of vidya games.

[Mandark]

Didnt you hear, McCain will give you a WHOLE 5000 dollars to buy health insurance.

Health Insurance? That's a big screen TV and a whole ton of vidya games.

Actually, you only get $2,500.  $5,000 is for families.  And you don't get it; it goes right to the insurance company from the govt.

So what you need is a street urchin willing to pretend to be your kid, and a Best Buy willing to pretend to be an HMO.

[demi]

Oh well that sounds like work to me. What do you think this is.

[TVC15]

Oh well that sounds like work to me. What do you think this is.

Demi, just please, chop off my legs and an arm and poke out an eye.  Once I am finally free, you can fuck my mouth, my ass, my eye socket.  I'll even give you a cut of my SS.  All yours, baby.

[Ganhyun]

I wonder how much michael moore would cost the canadian healthcare system if he lived there.

Nah, Michael Moore doesnt bother with Canada, he's a fan of Cuba's healthcare.

[Ganhyun]

Posting that list and trying to start a discussion about it is stupid. 

If you think the list and a discussion about it is stpuid, then obviously you are even more stupid for taking your time, since you think its stupid, to come and post about it.

[Ganhyun]

Does it make sense if I compare your RonPaulian libertarian right wing paradise with Nazi Germany?

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

[ShogunOfFear]

wow what a shithold of a thread

i still welcome you conservativs among our fold

in any case, i despise unflinching conservatives such as yoruself just as i despies unflinching liberals.

i learned through life that i don't really have the patience for people who put ideology over this complex, gritty thing called 'reality'

- conservatives proudly and smugly boast against the evils of too much presence of the government.  Yet they quickly deny or - more often, do not mention at all the evils of too much control from the private corporation...whose influence can be just as good or bad as government.  Government answers to the people.  I will repeat this:

Pros:
Government elected by the people and governed by agreed-upon rules - Constitution, laws, etc - exists by the people, for the people. 

Similarly, private entities compete to bring the best fruits of competition, and results in wonderful, groundbreaking advances in many many industries, for the benefit of society in general.


Yet, as with reality, as with life, there are the dark sides, when it is taken too far:
- Government in excess can take you to China, or places where Govt has too much power. To the detriment of society.

- Private entities can also have too much power, to the detriment of society.  In the US, see the health care, or teh broadband 'progress' [lol] to name just a few, to see this in effect.



Now, there's a ton of liberals at GAF, and at Evilbore, and I don't agree with alot of what they may say.  This is why I am at heart, a moderate.  I believe in the greatness of capitalism, yet greed - the engine of capitalism - sometimes involves in breaking the rules to the significant detriment of others, and sometimes collective means - what you call socialism - is necessary.

I agree with most of what you say, but I'd like to make a couple of points.  First the bolded, I can't say government has served the people these past eight years, perhaps some tried and just did a poor job, and this includes members of both parties.   I too believe in capitalism.  It did afterall help build the greatest nation on earth, however I can point out three reasons of its recent failures.  Corruption, Piss poor leadership, and IMO our education system that continues to decline and I'll explain why.  Empowering the individual for success is one benefit of capitalism, but if that individual has a poor education the chances of them obtaining that success isn't good.

[Beardo]

I love the lefts logic. Government works for the people. Except when I disagree with it (Iraq war) then its controlled by greedy corporations.



 

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

HAHAHAHAHA

[drohne]

capitalism

brb must go consume for the dirty poorletariat nom nom nom

[Crushed]

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

um

you do know that communists and nazis hated each other for everything the other stood for, right

[Beardo]

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

um

you do know that communists and nazis hated each other for everything the other stood for, right

Just proof that communists and socialists are so dumb they dont even understand their own political philosophy.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nazism, a short name for National Socialism

[close]

[ShogunOfFear]

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

um

you do know that communists and nazis hated each other for everything the other stood for, right

Just proof that communists and socialists are so dumb they dont even understand their own political philosophy.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nazism, a short name for National Socialism

[close]

 

[huckleberry]

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

um

you do know that communists and nazis hated each other for everything the other stood for, right

It really is simpleton logic to call the Nazis socialist; which I am guessing is because the word 'Socialist' was in the name.  In reality Nazis had a hodgegodge economic theory that included tenets of capitalism and socialism...anything that they thought would work.  Hitler himself said that "The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all." 

But I digress....it is much more fun to make fun of the topic at hand than to take it seriously.

[Beardo]

It really is simpleton logic to call the Nazis socialist; which I am guessing is because the word 'Socialist' was in the name.

Then I guess socialists are simpletons. 

[huckleberry]

It really is simpleton logic to call the Nazis socialist; which I am guessing is because the word 'Socialist' was in the name.

Then I guess socialists are simpletons. 

Were you born with a brain stem?

[Ganhyun]

No it doesn't because the Nazi party was Socialist.

um

you do know that communists and nazis hated each other for everything the other stood for, right

National Socialist German Workers' Party

The party itself was socialist, but just as in Russia, a totalitarian regime was created. Stalin ruled Russia, Hitler Germany. The hatred was more of a fact that Hitler, and also the Nazi party, didn't believe in Marxist principles and believed Communism to be the work of Jews.


also: One of the big tenets of the Nazi party was socialism for pure Germans.

From Wikipedia:

the party's socialist policy was meant to give social welfare to German citizens deemed part of the Aryan race

[Beardo]

Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler did during all of WW2. 

[Crushed]

National Socialist German Workers' Party

Right, except it really wasn't a "socialist workers' party" at all.

also: One of the big tenets of the Nazi party was socialism for pure Germans.

From Wikipedia:

the party's socialist policy was meant to give social welfare to German citizens deemed part of the Aryan race

My God, welfare! They're practically communists! 

[Beardo]

National Socialist German Workers' Party


National Socialist German Workers' Party


National Socialist German Workers' Party


Socialist

[Crushed]

National Socialist German Workers' Party

What was socialist about them? They appealed to the middle class and protected capitalism.

Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler did during all of WW2. 

Nobody's defending Stalinism or communism. 

[huckleberry]

You were born with a brain stem.  Holy Jesus.  



Crushed:  Oddly enough for such a socialist country the middle class in Germany saw more economic gain than any other economic group - doesn't sound like the Germans liked dirty poors in their version of socialism much.

[duckman2000]

Yeah, that welfare system was basically the extent of it. You realize that guys are parodies of yourselves at this point, right? I can't for a second believe that you guys are honestly this stupid, so this must just be the too typical right wing noise campaign.

[Beardo]

u mad?

[Crushed]

A middle-class group that hated Marxist ideologies and that really didn't do anything "socialist" apart from welfare and some nationalization, neither of which are inherently socialist from definition. So you guys are trying to call them socialists for the heck of it, despite the fact that they really didn't do any of the Marxist things you hate so much.

The Nazis were repugnant because of their racial and totalitarian ideologies, not their hodge-podge economic policy.

[huckleberry]

u mad?

Not mad.  Just amazed that your parents decided to keep you instead of putting you in a landfill.  I always thought it weird when parents of dead babies brought home the fetus.  I guess their reward is in heaven.

[duckman2000]

u mad?

Troubled, if anything. Either you're pushing one of the most pathetic "argumentative" techniques known to man, or you're an honest fucking idiot. In either case, reason is clearly out.

[duckman2000]

A middle-class group that hated Marxist ideologies and that really didn't do anything "socialist" apart from welfare and some nationalization, neither of which are inherently socialist from definition. So you guys are trying to call them socialists for the heck of it, despite the fact that they really didn't do any of the Marxist things you hate so much.

The Nazis were repugnant because of their racial and totalitarian ideologies, not their hodge-podge economic policy.

But dude, it's in the name! Never mind if the argument makes sense, let's holler about it anyway and hope that people will let us win by simply walking away from the argument noise.

How very Republican.

[Crushed]

But dude, it's in the name! Never mind if the argument makes sense, let's holler about it anyway and hope that people will let us win by simply walking away from the argument noise.

How very Republican.

I wonder what Beardo and Ganhyun think of the Democratic-Republican Party. I mean, THE NAME! IT'S SO CONFUSING. THEY MUST HAVE BEEN ONE OR THE OTHER.

[Ganhyun]

But dude, it's in the name! Never mind if the argument makes sense, let's holler about it anyway and hope that people will let us win by simply walking away from the argument noise.

How very Republican.

I wonder what Beardo and Ganhyun think of the Democratic-Republican Party. I mean, THE NAME! IT'S SO CONFUSING. THEY MUST HAVE BEEN ONE OR THE OTHER.

Wow, what a fucking distinguished mentally-challenged fellow to go the router of a known socialist on this board.

Democratic party: Commonly liberal members, some extreme, some moderate.

Republican party: Commonly conservative. Some extreme, some moderate.