Literary Snobs, Apply Here

[Raban]

Hey EB, I'm going to write a book next year. It's going to be a children's book and I have it all plotted out, but I haven't written anything in solid in quite some time. If it isn't a bother to anybody, I'm going to post some short stories and other things so I can receive some criticism on my style and hopefully with that some tips on how to improve it.

Do not spell check.

I proofread my own stuff quite a few times and tbh spelling and grammatical errors (most anyways) will eventually be eradicated, and since these short stories are warm-ups and nothing I'm going to shop around, it would be a waste of your time and mine if you bothered to correct that stuff. So please, just constructive criticism.

There was wind. It always starts with wind. James had been outside earlier today and felt the wind pushing him around. The invisible bully. That's the thing about wind. We always think we can see it. Cartoons and television make us believe wind can be seen in autumn leaves skittering across the sidewalk or the arms of a tree flexing up and down. But that's not wind. Wind can only be felt, or heard. Stand in a parking lot and feel it throw hook after jab into you. Leave your window open at night and hear the Gods of the suburbs emerge.

James had stayed awake long enough to hear them gather outside his house. The first one to arrive is the God of Green. The eldest of them. Watching over all plant life. Aged and weary. He's grown tired of humans and their sidewalks and roads being built next to his daughters. Their growth stunted. You could hear the pain in his voice.
   "It is time to meet, old friends." He whispered into the wind's bosom, and she carried it to the far reaches of the city. Suddenly the Goddess of Flesh appeared. She was much younger compared to Green. Her life seemed to renew with every year. She rode to the cul de sac outside James' house on ten wolves' backs.
   "Hello Green. It has been some time."
   "Indeed it has, Flesh. How are things in your domain?"
   "They've not been better. One of my kind still strays into the road to be hit by man's machines, but it is our curiosoty of the strange and terrifying that draws us there."
   "I know much of nature, miss. I understand your meaning."
   "Where is the God of Sky?"
   "He is always late, I do not expect him to make it while we are here."
The Goddess wore an expression of concern for a moment.
   "Is that all then?"
   "Almost. James, lift your blinds."

I was going to go further but the idea train got derailed into an orphanage. Something new will be posted every day, hopefully.

[recursivelyenumerable]

not really my thing, but you'll probably be able to do something decent eventually, if you work at it.

[Great Rumbler]

One thing that standouts is the conversation. It's just...there. There's nothing to indicate what any of the two characters are doing or thinking while the conversation is going on. Now, that doesn't mean that every line has to end with "He asked" or "She said", but there should be a few of those and some modifiers or verbs tossed in as well.

[Tieno]

Too much symbolic language with not enough description (I think), hard to get a mental image of the scene that's playing.

[Raban]

In that particular scene I was trying to convey a feeling of mystery, kind of putting you in James' place. You're only hearing them, not seeing them. I kind of betrayed that with "look of concern", but the reason I wrote it that way is James was going to draw his blinds open and I'd begin describing the Gods. This was a little thin for my first entry, though, it'll get deeper and deeper the more I write.

Just FYI, every entry is going to be completely different and unrelated to the last. If I didn't make that clear in the OP.

[tehjaybo]

Needs more vampires that sparkle.

[Raban]

Needs more vampires that sparkle.

Do I look like Stephanie Meyer? Or did you just compare my writing to hers? Either way

[Bocsius]

"Hey."
"Hey."
"How's.."
"Don't."
"For real?"
"Seriously."
"K"
"..."
"Where's.."
"Out"
"Where?"
"Dunno."
"So..."
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"Yeah what?"
"Why can't..."
"I told you."
"But.."
"But nothing."
"..."
"..."
"I gotta go."
"Good talking to you."
"Yeah."

[Raban]

"Hey."
"Hey."
"How's.."
"Don't."
"For real?"
"Seriously."
"K"
"..."
"Where's.."
"Out"
"Where?"
"Dunno."
"So..."
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"Yeah what?"
"Why can't..."
"I told you."
"But.."
"But nothing."
"..."
"..."
"I gotta go."
"Good talking to you."
"Yeah."

[tehjaybo]

Needs more vampires that sparkle.

Do I look like Stephanie Meyer? Or did you just compare my writing to hers? Either way

You'll sell more with vampires that sparkle.  Just saying.  Not comparing at all, just telling you how to get it in there.

[Raban]

Needs more vampires that sparkle.

Do I look like Stephanie Meyer? Or did you just compare my writing to hers? Either way

You'll sell more with vampires that sparkle.  Just saying.  Not comparing at all, just telling you how to get it in there.

I'm not writing to publish a book. I may not even bother shopping it if it doesn't pass with certain people. I'm writing because I want to start and finish something.

I'll consider adding sparkly vampires though. There are already skeleton kings, ocean warriors and El Dorado in the story, I can fit vampires in there.

[recursivelyenumerable]

I am working on a book too BTW, which moreover will be just one part of my new multimedia megafranchise  

[tehjaybo]

I was writing a childrens book a while back, drawing inspiration from The Bore, but I ran into some...  complications with the character "Uncle Tauntaun".

[Great Rumbler]

I finished writing a fantasy story a few days ago, right now I'm doing some tweaking and editing. It turned out okay, but it needs a bit more work to get it where I want it to be.

[Raban]

I finished writing a fantasy story a few days ago, right now I'm doing some tweaking and editing. It turned out okay, but it needs a bit more work to get it where I want it to be.

How long had you been writing it?

[Great Rumbler]

I finished writing a fantasy story a few days ago, right now I'm doing some tweaking and editing. It turned out okay, but it needs a bit more work to get it where I want it to be.

How long had you been writing it?

Started it 25 days ago. It's about 300 pages, give or take.

[Raban]

I finished writing a fantasy story a few days ago, right now I'm doing some tweaking and editing. It turned out okay, but it needs a bit more work to get it where I want it to be.

How long had you been writing it?

Started it 25 days ago. It's about 300 pages, give or take.

Sheeit, NaNoWriMo?

EDIT: Wanna upload it somewhere and PM me a link?

[Great Rumbler]

Sheeit, NaNoWriMo?

No, I just felt like I needed to get a full-length novel written and I was keen on seeing how hard I could push myself.

EDIT: Wanna upload it somewhere and PM me a link?

I don't really have anywhere to upload it to, but I can attach it to an email. Just PM me your email address.

[etiolate]

1. Is this prose practice for your children's book? As in, what is the intended age group?
2. Will there be illustrations accompanying?
3. Transition between the opening paragraph and the conversation is a little jarring.
4. Is the wind an actual God or does James interpret the wind as a God? There is a question of where do these Gods come from.

If there is illustration to be had, then it can help both the feeling of who James is and where he is, along with smooth the transition between introduction and conversation.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Fuck me, that first paragraph was absolutely painful for me to read.  The second paragraph already gives away the message and shoves it in my face not unlike fake tits in a strip club.  It might be a children's book but you should let the little kids find out the message, not just serve it to them on a platter within the first 100 words.

Then again, I like very dry non-fiction, even when I was in 1st grade.

[Raban]

1. Is this prose practice for your children's book? As in, what is the intended age group?
2. Will there be illustrations accompanying?
3. Transition between the opening paragraph and the conversation is a little jarring.
4. Is the wind an actual God or does James interpret the wind as a God? There is a question of where do these Gods come from.

If there is illustration to be had, then it can help both the feeling of who James is and where he is, along with smooth the transition between introduction and conversation.

1. Yes, it's practice. Not going to be writing just young demographic stuff up here, I'm trying to refine parts of my writing style that I feel are loose. A lot of shit is going to get posted in this thread. And I don't mean volume. Age group for the actual book is like teens.

2. No.

3. I wrote this on the fly with no idea where I was going, really.

4. The wind isn't a God. This story stems from how when I was younger I'd hear a very violent wind outside my window (I always leave it open) and I'd stay up all night and imagine the things that could be going on. Sometimes it would be wars, other times discussions. I agree, the dialogue in that chunk is flat, but my dialogue has always been like that so I need more practice, obviously. Again I wasn't really going anywhere with this particular piece, I'm just trying to convey a scene. Bad way to start, looking back.

Fuck me, that first paragraph was absolutely painful for me to read.  The second paragraph already gives away the message and shoves it in my face not unlike fake tits in a strip club.  It might be a children's book but you should let the little kids find out the message, not just serve it to them on a platter within the first 100 words.

I don't even know what message you're talking about. And I don't know if I made this clear; what I posted is unrelated to the book I plan to write. This is just warm-up stuff. I'm trying to sharpen my pen, so to speak.

[Raban]

Inspired by a scene in The Informant! Unoriginal concept, but something that had the potential for dialogue etc. etc. Just read it

"Hello?"
"Yes ah..." Mark paused. Why is there a man answering my home phone? He continued.
"Yes, I'm looking to speak to Danielle."
"Sure, no problem, let me get her!" The strange voice left the phone and Mark alone. Murmuring was audible.
"Yes?" Mark found comfort in his wife's siren voice.
"Hi honey I just wanted you to know I'm going to be home a bit later, I'm a little swamped."
"Honey? Sir, I believe you're mistaking me for someone else." Danielle said, her tone caked in bewilderment. Mark's jaw came unhooked and slowly descended off his face. He recoiled with a smile, as if the conversation was face to face.
"Don't joke like that Dani, I'm being serious. Who was that man earlier?" Mark capped the sentence with a forced chuckle.
"That man is my husband-" Danielle tried to continue but the phone exchanged users and the man was back on the line.
"Hey buddy I don't know who the heck you think you are, but if I were you I'd hang up this phone right now."
Mark licked his lips, tasting the coffee on his moustache from earlier in the morning. His mouth reopened, since he was finding it hard to breathe. Mark's throat was dry, and he attempted to start a sentence several times before coughing out,
"Now wait just a minute-" The line went dead. What had happened? Is this some kind of joke? Mark let the phone slip from his face and laid it on his desk. He stepped across his office to look at the calendar. Not April 1st. Not even April. What the hell was going on? Wasn't his birthday, nor their anniversary. Mark paced a lap across the floor and stopped at the coat rack, donning his coat and jacket, and stormed out of his door. His rotund boss, Frank, was right outside conversing with Mark's secretary. He turned his tomato-red face and squeezed out a smile from inbetween his cheeks.
"Mark! Where you going?"
"Trouble with the wife, Frankie, you know how it is," Mark yelled from across the room without turning back. He entered the hall before Frank could retort.

As soon as he got downstairs Mark got into his car and slammed the door after him. The car roared to life and the lights flicked on, and Mark pulled out of the parking structure and into the snow-rimmed streets. The sky was low and grey, with beams of noontime sunlight leaking through holes in the patchwork. Mark burnt rubber to get home. As he pulled into his driveway he saw the car he was driving was parked in the garage. An exact replica. Down to the license plate and the bumper sticker Danielle had him buy that said "Killing one animal is unethical/Killing many is SCIENCE". Mark reversed a block down and decided to walk up the street to his house. He decided to come through the backyard and stopped when he saw his wife cross through a window. He hid behind a planter. It was there, crouched in his thrift-store khakis ready to burst open because they were so old, snow resting on the moustache he spent 30 minutes on after a shower trimming to perfection in the very house he now gazed at with unyielding fear and confusion, that he saw something that changed his life forever. He saw himself. He saw Mark, standing in the kitchen cutting vegetables for the soup that he talked to Danielle about that morning. He was wearing the cartigan that Mark had stared at longingly in his closet a week ago, thinking, "Man, it's been a while since I wore that cartigan."

EDIT: It ends so abruptly because I couldn't think of anything else to say after that.

[etiolate]

Dialogue takes longer to learn and smooth out. Some dialogue exercises might help you get more comfortable with your verbal exchanges.

[Raban]

Dialogue takes longer to learn and smooth out. Some dialogue exercises might help you get more comfortable with your verbal exchanges.

I don't plan on mastering it overnight. Why are so many people assuming I have super high hopes for any of my writing? I grew up loving to read and I wrote some stuff when I was younger, all my peers and teachers said my writing was great, I posted my writing on the internet years back and got my shit slammed on pretty hard. Writing is just a hobby and nobody I know in person reads real books, they're either comics or manga or non-fiction. Thus I've used the internet. I don't have hope of becoming an overnight literary success or even making money off of writing a children's book. I just want to write a children's book.

I've almost completely lost the imagination I once I had, and realizing that has had a devastating effect on my mood. I've been meaning to write this story forever and I just want to actively engage my creative mind in hopes that I'll reconnect with my own childhood through writing a story for kids.

I hope that didn't sound like an LJ entry or a cry for help, if so I'll just edit it out. But it seems as though if I don't fully explain myself, people keeping getting the wrong idea with this thread and my goals.

[Raban]

Edit: nevermind that.

I like this sentence a lot:

The sky was low and grey, with beams of noontime sunlight leaking through holes in the patchwork.

Some of the other descriptive phrases could use improvement. But that's a nice one. You have some amount of potential.

Thank you so much

[recursivelyenumerable]

imagination comes and goes.  as i said, keep working and i'm sure you'll come up with something worthwhile sooner or later.  no need to be defensive.

[recursivelyenumerable]

btw as an eb exclusive i will reveal the first four words of the book I am currently working on!

"As Felice watched herself"

the name of the heroine might change, though

[Raban]

imagination comes and goes.  as i said, keep working and i'm sure you'll come up with something worthwhile sooner or later.  no need to be defensive.

Eh I'm not really trying to be defensive, just explaining things is all. Thanks though.

[etiolate]

Dialogue takes longer to learn and smooth out. Some dialogue exercises might help you get more comfortable with your verbal exchanges.

I don't plan on mastering it overnight. Why are so many people assuming I have super high hopes for any of my writing?

You asked for constructive criticism. =P

I am looking at what you're writing and giving feedback. I figure since you want some feedback and felt your dialogue needed work that a suggestion of dialogue exercises might help.

I grew up loving to read and I wrote some stuff when I was younger, all my peers and teachers said my writing was great, I posted my writing on the internet years back and got my shit slammed on pretty hard. Writing is just a hobby and nobody I know in person reads real books, they're either comics or manga or non-fiction. Thus I've used the internet. I don't have hope of becoming an overnight literary success or even making money off of writing a children's book. I just want to write a children's book.

Unfortunately, the internet is not the best place for writing feedback.  In between a fanfic website and something like Zoetrope's community, there is a wide gap in worthwhile discussion and that gap is mostly filled with people not worth listening to.

[Van Cruncheon]

ignore green shinobi. he's wrong. read this dude's remarks instead: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/arts/writers-writing-easy-adverbs-exclamation-points-especially-hooptedoodle.html

[Raban]

ignore green shinobi. he's wrong. read this dude's remarks instead: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/arts/writers-writing-easy-adverbs-exclamation-points-especially-hooptedoodle.html

Extremely helpful read.

[Great Rumbler]

ignore green shinobi. he's wrong. read this dude's remarks instead: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/arts/writers-writing-easy-adverbs-exclamation-points-especially-hooptedoodle.html

2. Avoid prologues.

They can be annoying, especially a prologue following an introduction that comes after a foreword. But these are ordinarily found in nonfiction. A prologue in a novel is backstory, and you can drop it in anywhere you want.

There is a prologue in John Steinbeck's ''Sweet Thursday,'' but it's O.K. because a character in the book makes the point of what my rules are all about. He says: ''I like a lot of talk in a book and I don't like to have nobody tell me what the guy that's talking looks like. I want to figure out what he looks like from the way he talks. . . . figure out what the guy's thinking from what he says. I like some description but not too much of that. . . . Sometimes I want a book to break loose with a bunch of hooptedoodle. . . . Spin up some pretty words maybe or sing a little song with language. That's nice. But I wish it was set aside so I don't have to read it. I don't want hooptedoodle to get mixed up with the story.''

3. Never use a verb other than ''said'' to carry dialogue.

The line of dialogue belongs to the character; the verb is the writer sticking his nose in. But said is far less intrusive than grumbled, gasped, cautioned, lied. I once noticed Mary McCarthy ending a line of dialogue with ''she asseverated,'' and had to stop reading to get the dictionary.

4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb ''said'' . . .

. . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances ''full of rape and adverbs.'

I don't really agree with these. Sure, overuse of them can be a problem especially if you're just throwing them around to try to appear clever, but that's true of pretty much anything. And, basically, these three can be found in pretty much every work of fantasy that's ever been written.

[etiolate]

And once your dialogue zings, you won't ever need adverbs and exclamations accompanying them. The tone will convey itself. Think of a real life conversation you've had that was uncomfortable. The words may not have been said any particularly special way, but the words picked and the situation made you uncomfortable.

translated: Let the words speak for themselves.

[Van Cruncheon]

most works of fantasy are awful plus for just that reason

[Great Rumbler]

most works of fantasy are awful plus for just that reason

Even A Game of Thrones and the Wheel of Time do those things. Not every other sentence, obviously, but you can find a number of examples without too much trouble, and both have prologues.

[recursivelyenumerable]

the prose style dissuaded me from reading past page 4 of book 1 of game of thrones, fwiw.  but i don't necessarily dislike florid prose, just Martin's florid prose.

[Raban]

most works of fantasy are awful plus for just that reason

This is why I hate fantasy, specifically for the above reasons.

And coincidentally the first thing I thought of reading that list was, in fact, A Game Of Thrones.

You asked for constructive criticism. =P

I am looking at what you're writing and giving feedback. I figure since you want some feedback and felt your dialogue needed work that a suggestion of dialogue exercises might help.

Unfortunately, the internet is not the best place for writing feedback.  In between a fanfic website and something like Zoetrope's community, there is a wide gap in worthwhile discussion and that gap is mostly filled with people not worth listening to.

Don't worry, I'm not angry at you or anything, heh. And yeah, the internet isn't the best place to work, but I don't know of any writing group or anything in this area, probably because Californians are so creatively bankrupt.

[Raban]

I don't agree with rule #3 100% of the time. "Said" should be the most common verb you use to carry the dialogue, but I think there are certain cases where you would want to use a different verb. Just as an example, here is a line of dialogue written once with said and once with another verb:

"I loved your father more than a brat like you could ever know," she said.

"I loved your father more than a brat like you could ever know," she snapped.

I much prefer the second one. We get a much better idea of the character's tone and the emotion she might be projecting.

I had a pretty good idea of how she said it because of the words she used. Words spoken hold a lot more weight than words outside the dialogue, imo. I know at least when I'm reading and authors put really complex verbs to describe how someone said something, it kind of kicks me out of the book.

[Van Cruncheon]

most works of fantasy are awful plus for just that reason

Even A Game of Thrones and the Wheel of Time do those things. Not every other sentence, obviously, but you can find a number of examples without too much trouble, and both have prologues.

pulp is pulp. if your aspiration is to write pulp and hew to cliches, even the terrible ones that limit the fantasy genre's appeal and keep it in the literary gutter, then ignore leonard's advice. or you could consider developing a more effective style, rather than aping a turgid one (which previously aped the awful prose of tolkien).

i'm not saying "florid" prose is always bad, but most of you ain't faulkner. yet. get the basics down, then evolve a style.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I hate writing dialogue.

[Great Rumbler]

most works of fantasy are awful plus for just that reason

Even A Game of Thrones and the Wheel of Time do those things. Not every other sentence, obviously, but you can find a number of examples without too much trouble, and both have prologues.

pulp is pulp. if your aspiration is to write pulp and hew to cliches, even the terrible ones that limit the fantasy genre's appeal and keep it in the literary gutter, then ignore leonard's advice. or you could consider developing a more effective style, rather than aping a turgid one (which previously aped the awful prose of tolkien).

i'm not saying "florid" prose is always bad, but most of you ain't faulkner. yet. get the basics down, then evolve a style.

I'm not saying that you can just toss his advice aside and throw four or five adverbs and adjectives in every sentence, but I also think that they're not iron-clade, never to be broken for any reason, hard and fast rules. It's good advice and everything should be used in moderation and for the benefit of the story.

Like, "The big, red dog ran merrily down the hard, black road under the bright, warm sun," is horrifying. And tossing out lots of fancy words around your characters' dialogue is bad too. But I think adverbs have their uses in dialogue, provided that you don't OVERuse them.

[Raban]

Prole

[Great Rumbler]

You know what? Pulp is fun. Not everything's gotta be Steinbeck or Hemmingway or whatever. Get out there and write what appeals to you. If that's straight up fantasy pulp, then do it. Someone else out there will enjoy it. Don't let The Man tell you how you've gotta do things. In creative fields, rules are meant to be broken. Always. Without exception. So go break rules if you want to. Sometimes it'll succeed and something amazing will come out. Sometimes it'll fail and something terrible will come out. Doesn't matter. Go out there and write something that's so terrible and insipid that you feel sick to your stomach that you actually took the time to write it. Just fail utterly at something.

Then go back in there and write something amazing.

[Raban]

You know what? Pulp is fun. Not everything's gotta be Steinbeck or Hemmingway or whatever. Get out there and write what appeals to you. If that's straight up fantasy pulp, then do it. Someone else out there will enjoy it. Don't let The Man tell you how you've gotta do things. In creative fields, rules are meant to be broken. Always. Without exception. So go break rules if you want to. Sometimes it'll succeed and something amazing will come out. Sometimes it'll fail and something terrible will come out. Doesn't matter. Go out there and write something that's so terrible and insipid that you feel sick to your stomach that you actually took the time to write it. Just fail utterly at something.

Then go back in there and write something amazing.

Well what I'm planning to write for the children's book is a fantasy spoof like The Princess Bride. I really don't know how it's going to come out. I don't want to write something genius or critically acclaimed, I don't want to win an award of make a million dollars. I want to write a book like the ones I used to read as a kid. I want to convey the kind of emotions and attitudes I grew up reading that just don't exist anymore in children's literature, cartoons, television or anything.

I only want to write this one book, ever. I have other ideas for books but I have absolutely no faith in my ability has a writer to go through with them, so all I want to do is write this book, start to finish. As long as it's readable, and people whose opinion on books I trust very dearly give me the pass, I'm going to attempt to publish it. But that's not my plan from the start to get money. I just want to have fun writing something that isn't about dick-nipples or laser-cunts. Everything I've ever written is usually grotesque and ridiculously immature. I want to challenge myself to write a whole story to kind of repent for all the shit I've written before, and the story itself is a gift to a girl I met many years ago who originally came up with the story.

All I want to do is write this book. After that, I'm hanging up my pen forever, more than likely. But this thread is part of the research I'm putting into the book. I'm going to read Hans Christian Andersen, Little Nemo, and all the children's books I read growing up that I loved so much and take notes to try and capture what I loved so much about them.

[Great Rumbler]

Go for it then.

[Raban]

Go for it then.

Will do.

[MyNameIsMethodis]

I used to write screenplays in high school, took a class and got the highest grade. I've been meaning to get back into it, but I lost my script that everyone complimented on and don't think i'm half as funny as I was back in HS

[etiolate]

Screenplays and I don't mix due to my not wanting to adhere to age old rules of plot.

I might be writing the script for an iphone game and that will be an interesting venture.


Raban:

And if you're aiming at junior fiction, I find The Giver still one of the best pieces of junior fic. But don't try to remake what you read as a kid.  Write what you felt like as a kid and let the fantasy come in through that. You will have to force less scenarios this way. I think kids will know when you're not being real, so you got to keep it honest.

[Raban]

And if you're aiming at junior fiction, I find The Giver still one of the best pieces of junior fic. But don't try to remake what you read as a kid.  Write what you felt like as a kid and let the fantasy come in through that. You will have to force less scenarios this way. I think kids will know when you're not being real, so you got to keep it honest.

That's why I'm so excited to write this. Kids are the most real critics in the world. They know when they're being bullshitted most times. I'm not going to try and ape other styles, I'm just taking down notes for pointers. And writing what I felt like as a kid is exactly what I plan to do.