Random Gaming Talk Thread

[Stoney Mason]

Here's a pretty good post regarding the uncomfortable truth in the game industry. Gamers by and large are irredeemable scum: http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574

We all know this. Everyone I personally know who's in the game industry agrees with this sentiment. In fact I know several high profile PR specialists who's job it is to deal with these people and they are genuinely distraught about it. It's a genuinely shitty situation when a sizable portion of your consumer base goes out of their way to destroy people's livelihood by pirating games and on top of that does what it can to ridicule and demoralize you and your team. The second half of the blog post does cover that even negative attention is a good thing but it's still crappy.

While I don't disagree with a lot of this, to be fair I saw enough on the other side also to see how many devs and publishers honestly seem to regard their customers as a pain and a nuisance and simply walking money bags to be exploited rather than earning respect and repeat business through quality work. The best devs probably have a lot less of this but I certainly saw it at the places where I worked.

It always seemed a very hard line to walk between:

* Honestly analyzing customer feedback and responding to it in a proper manner
* Trying to satisfy PR people who really only want to talk about NEW exciting back of the box bullet point features instead of understanding and marketing how actually making the game work properly in an balanced manner is more important than any single new whizbang bulletpoint
* And finally satisfying the dev desire to try something new and possibly innovate for once in an industry where that isn't encouraged very often.

After every project shipped I had the job of picking through forums and trying to pick out all the relevant bad stuff people were saying so we could improve it, and it was always a very dispiriting experience on pretty much all levels.

[Dennis]

Obsidian and CD Projekt for example seem genuinely well liked by their gamer customers.

I buy their games at full prize and am happy about it. CD Projekt have been extremely good in supporting both Witcher games. And I am sure there are plenty of other examples.

It doesn't have to be a shit relationship. But the way a lot of devs and pubs are treating the customers no fucking wonder they get shit in return.

[Great Rumbler]

Part of it is that there's a really vocal group, or groups, that absolutely just have to have everything catered to their every whim and usually still complain even when it is. The "good" customers, it seems to me, are generally less vocal about their support other than maybe a few positive message here and there, and wind up getting drowned out by the sheer hatefulness of the "bad" customers. Either way, PR of any kind is not a job I have even the faintest interest in, way too much stress and having to deal with loathsome people [even if they are far from representing the vast majority].

[a slime appears]

While I don't disagree with a lot of this, to be fair I saw enough on the other side also to see how many devs and publishers honestly seem to regard their customers as a pain and a nuisance and simply walking money bags to be exploited rather than earning respect and repeat business through quality work. The best devs probably have a lot less of this but I certainly saw it at the places where I worked.

It always seemed a very hard line to walk between:

* Honestly analyzing customer feedback and responding to it in a proper manner
* Trying to satisfy PR people who really only want to talk about NEW exciting back of the box bullet point features instead of understanding and marketing how actually making the game work properly in an balanced manner is more important than any single new whizbang bulletpoint
* And finally satisfying the dev desire to try something new and possibly innovate for once in an industry where that isn't encouraged very often.

After every project shipped I had the job of picking through forums and trying to pick out all the relevant bad stuff people were saying so we could improve it, and it was always a very dispiriting experience on pretty much all levels.

I've only seen that kind of disdain for customers from two camps: Top-level executives and mobile developers. I'm sure it happens elsewhere but I've never really seen it outside of those two areas.

I guess I should have also clarified that this isn't really a 'hot-button' issue for most developers since a majority of them are well outside the sphere of influence it has. It's just one of those accepted facts that people shrug about and move on. I just like to rant!

Part of it is that there's a really vocal group, or groups, that absolutely just have to have everything catered to their every whim and usually still complain even when it is. The "good" customers, it seems to me, are generally less vocal about their support other than maybe a few positive message here and there, and wing up getting drowned out by the sheer hatefulness of the "bad" customers. Either way, PR of any kind is not a job I have even the faintest interest in, way too much stress and having to deal with loathsome people [even if they are far from representing the vast majority].

Yeah, PR is something I would never want to get involved with. There are a lot of awesome perks to the job though, like constant free trips and great pay. Also, PR usually has a ton of hilarious stories to share. Journalists do and say some ridiculous shit at those events, lol.

[Rufus]

You can't deny that a lot of people dribble shit from their mouth the moment they open it. And it concentrates quickly. No wonder devs have this impression of their costumer base. Combine that with a tendency to only speak about the bad aspects you encounter (of which I'm guilty too) and you have a nice vortex of negativity.

The price thing is a whole other problem. Spiderweb Software resisted the price competition for the longest time. I wonder what their books look like, and how quickly Vogel plans to enter the steam sale discount spiral with his next game.

[a slime appears]

It's a hostile codependency.  Both sides behave pretty badly to each other, and while I have no idea who threw the first stone, it doesn't really matter anymore.  Part of the problem is that devs and gamers are cut from the same unpleasant cloth, and as a result neither look very good when they're at their worst.

I vehemently disagree with that statement. Aside from a few high profile lynchings from the gamer mob on a developer who says something dumb I see nothing to substantiate the dev claim.

[demi]

DEVS = SELLOUTS

[Stoney Mason]

I've only seen that kind of disdain for customers from two camps: Top-level executives and mobile developers. I'm sure it happens elsewhere but I've never really seen it outside of those two areas.

Mobile was just sort of really starting by the time I got out but it definitely came from executives who are able to in many cases set the direction for development because the producers are always under pressure to satisfy these guys. So the whole cycle can be designed out of fear and pleasing the higher ups. If you have a strong dev structure with experienced and good people this is probably less likely to happen. But I saw it happen my fair share when those elements aren't up to snuff.

Part of it is that there's a really vocal group, or groups, that absolutely just have to have everything catered to their every whim and usually still complain even when it is. The "good" customers, it seems to me, are generally less vocal about their support other than maybe a few positive message here and there, and wind up getting drowned out by the sheer hatefulness of the "bad" customers. Either way, PR of any kind is not a job I have even the faintest interest in, way too much stress and having to deal with loathsome people [even if they are far from representing the vast majority].

90 to 95 percent of your customers don't know what they are talking about and are best ignored. Which is not to say that the things they complain about aren't valid. It's just they will give you no useful information beyond telling you that a bug exists in a shipped product.

5% maybe have actual useful feedback because even if they don't have the solution, they are identifying something more fundamental to the design process or expressing gamer interest in something the design team is either overlooking, not fully understanding, or it can spark something else in the dev's mind.

The thing is good devs can pull that 5% and make some really amazing stuff with it. But its hard.

[a slime appears]

That's fine.  Your experiences differ from mine, and I'd expect them to.  I've only ever been in the media box.  But I can tell you whatever the reality may be, gamers feel like the devs are hostile, and I think perception is unfortunately the more important side of things here.

That's a fair point and you're right. Perception, regardless of veracity, is often the most important.

There's been far too many examples of big companies actively screwing their consumers because they think they can get away with it. The reality behind those scenarios is fare more nuanced and complex but that is the perception. Regardless I'm genuinely happy to see consumers lash out and call out that shit but I just wish people were a little more cordial about it than death threats is all.

Mobile was just sort of really starting by the time I got out but it definitely came from executives who are able to in many cases set the direction for development because the producers are always under pressure to satisfy these guys. So the whole cycle can be designed out of fear and pleasing the higher ups. If you have a strong dev structure with experienced and good people this is probably less likely to happen. But I saw it happen my fair share when those elements aren't up to snuff.

I see. Fortunately I haven't been in that scenario but I can definitely see how that can happen. Good point.

Also I had to poll the internet for feedback on a project once. MAN that was hilarious. I didn't censor any of that shit and gave the CEO just a point blank assessment of the consumer's feedback using touchstone words that popped up often. Describing a specific feature as 'a pile of shit according to most comments' was a pretty hilarious highlight of my report. To be fair they were right, lol.

[Stoney Mason]

I see. Fortunately I haven't been in that scenario but I can definitely see how that can happen. Good point.

I'll give an example although I'll disguise it a bit as I like to keep my life private.

I remember one year a competitor had gotten really popular with a certain mechanic in a game. Let's switch genres and call it a combat system like in skyrim or something. So the system has a name like the dual wielding complete combat system. The game sells a shitload and everybody is talking about this dual wielding complete combat system they are marketing. So every executive gets freaked out at my company. Because if we are going to compete then by god we need our own gimmicky as shit combat system!

Instead of maybe just admitting that skyrim is a great game in its own right and the combat system is just a part of that, our entire focus now becomes coming up with something to counter point this system. We have shitloads of meetings about it. We spend an inordinate amount of time talking about it. We focus test all kinds of names for our combat system even though it hasn't even been designed. Now skyrim is driving how we design our game completely even though originally it wasn't there at all.

Cut to the release of our title and we proudly introduce the Combo kick ass duel system when our product launches!  It sucks. It sucks for lots of reasons. But part of that is because it was something jury rigged into the design just so we could match bullet points with some other game.  And we get a bit savaged in reviews for it.

Now there is a lot of ways this situation could have resolved in a much better manner. And its probably unfair to say that executives solely caused this problem. But it was definitely part of the problem, and stuff like that I got to see a lot.

[a slime appears]

Thanks for sharing your story. Wow that's awful.

Sorry, only registered users can see this content. Please Login or Register.

[Stoney Mason]

I don't want to make it seem all bad. We did ship some stuff I was quite proud of. And that is always a very good feeling when you ship something that is actually a good game because its very difficult imo. I think the difference was we had better designers and producers in charge at that point. I was kinda green at this point. I knew their were problems structurally but I didn't know enough about how to fix or address those problems.

[demi]

Ya? I'll determine that. Send me your game

[Stoney Mason]

lol

[brob]

maybe this is me being cynical, but considering how linearly video games (per genre or type) seem to evolve I always assumed that it was normal to syphon features from competing games.

If a costumer only buys one military shoot game every year EA wants that to be Battlefield while Activison wants it to be COD, so there is a bullet point arms race. Sustainability generally loses to maximization in these sorts of business affairs. 

[Stoney Mason]

maybe this is me being cynical, but considering how linearly video games (per genre or type) seem to evolve I always assumed that it was normal to syphon features from competing games.

It is normal especially for games that come out on a predetermined cycle, but its one thing to syphon features very early in your process. It's much much more difficult to do later in the process when a billion things need to get done and the thing you are stealing may not even really be best suited for the current design of your game. Great designers and devs can probably break the rules and get away with it. But most devs are average. And there is always a cost to such things.

[Great Rumbler]

It's also worth noting here that social media is the tool of the devil and should be shunned at all times.

[Takao]

No one on this page has noticed that Magus put a pair of boobs on a Toad. Adblocking that image can't erase it from my mind.

[bork]

No one on this page has noticed that Magus put a pair of boobs on a Toad. Adblocking that image can't erase it from my mind.

I noticed, I chuckled, I moved on.

[demi]

Pretty sure everyone here has jerked off at the thought. Why havent you?

[a slime appears]

The Gamasutra Game Career guide is out.

It's a pretty good catch all book of tips to help people who are new to the industry or just want to break in. This is also the publication where they publish the yearly salary reports so still a lot of gold in there for veterans as well. Worth a read if you're into this shit.

[Cindi Mayweather]

Anything on making indie games?

[cosmicblizzard]

Danganronpa 2 is amazing already.

[magus]

The new smash bros basicaly get released in 3 weeks, i remember being really excited for brawl but somehow when it come to this one all i can think off is how lame most of the new character are and how it feels like the game is coming out more because of inertia than anything else... I mean it doesn't even have a proper title, it's literaly SMASH BROS FOR 3DS

[I'm a Puppy!]

No one on this page has noticed that Magus put a pair of boobs on a Toad. Adblocking that image can't erase it from my mind.

Oh I noticed...and fapped.

woohoohoo!

[Beezy]

The new smash bros basicaly get released in 3 weeks, i remember being really excited for brawl but somehow when it come to this one all i can think off is how lame most of the new character are and how it feels like the game is coming out more because of inertia than anything else... I mean it doesn't even have a proper title, it's literaly SMASH BROS FOR 3DS

You're not playing the title. Who cares.

[Cindi Mayweather]

he doesn't even have a 3ds

[bork]

Tried Mighty Gunvolt for a bit last night.

This is the first time Mighty No. 9 has been playable...before his own game his out.  And he plays a little weird.  Basically he's like Mega Man, only charging your buster results in 9 propelling himself forward, like an M. Bison psycho crusher.  This can be used to get to ledges you can't jump to and kill some enemies, but the problem is that it doesn't kill all enemies and there seems to be no way to tell who you can or cannot hit successfully.

The Mighty version of the Gunvolt character himself is also different.  He can't slide like 9, but can double jump and charging gives you a long, snake-like energy beam that you can aim in different directions to fry enemies.  The trade-off is that you can't move when using this attack.  Didn't try the girl from Gal Gun yet.

[bork]

The new smash bros basicaly get released in 3 weeks, i remember being really excited for brawl but somehow when it come to this one all i can think off is how lame most of the new character are and how it feels like the game is coming out more because of inertia than anything else... I mean it doesn't even have a proper title, it's literaly SMASH BROS FOR 3DS

There's some cool new characters being added, it looks to be way better than Brawl, and who gives a shit about the title?   Are you just putting it down because you can't pirate it?   

[magus]

The new smash bros basicaly get released in 3 weeks, i remember being really excited for brawl but somehow when it come to this one all i can think off is how lame most of the new character are and how it feels like the game is coming out more because of inertia than anything else... I mean it doesn't even have a proper title, it's literaly SMASH BROS FOR 3DS

There's some cool new characters being added, it looks to be way better than Brawl, and who gives a shit about the title?   Are you just putting it down because you can't pirate it?   

nah i hate all of the new characters they are adding, it's literaly all of the stuff they racked up during the wii and the ds era, it's like if they made a sega fan-game celebrating that weirdo chick that kissed sonic in sonic 2006, i mean stuff like the wii fit trainer and the villager are funny because they make for goofy character in a fighting game but at the same time i don't really give a shit about them... i guess at least you got megaman and pacman showing up like a bunch of washed up movie celebrity doing a cameo, and it doesn't look better than brawl, it looks EXACTLY like brawl, in fact aren't they removing stuff from brawl like adventure mode? i know everybody is like "WHO CARES ABOUT ADVENTURE MODE? IT SUCKED!" but for me it added to the charm

he doesn't even have a 3ds

i've played more smash than your sorry punkass bitch ass and i'm going to complain about the total apathy i have regarding this one!

[Cindi Mayweather]

I never claimed to be a fan of Smash.

[Dennis]

Two coming games that look like they may be worth playing.

The Vanishing of Ethan Carter:



Destiny:

[Beezy]

The new smash bros basicaly get released in 3 weeks, i remember being really excited for brawl but somehow when it come to this one all i can think off is how lame most of the new character are and how it feels like the game is coming out more because of inertia than anything else... I mean it doesn't even have a proper title, it's literaly SMASH BROS FOR 3DS

There's some cool new characters being added, it looks to be way better than Brawl, and who gives a shit about the title?   Are you just putting it down because you can't pirate it?   

nah i hate all of the new characters they are adding, it's literaly all of the stuff they racked up during the wii and the ds era, it's like if they made a sega fan-game celebrating that weirdo chick that kissed sonic in sonic 2006, i mean stuff like the wii fit trainer and the villager are funny because they make for goofy character in a fighting game but at the same time i don't really give a shit about them... i guess at least you got megaman and pacman showing up like a bunch of washed up movie celebrity doing a cameo, and it doesn't look better than brawl, it looks EXACTLY like brawl, in fact aren't they removing stuff from brawl like adventure mode? i know everybody is like "WHO CARES ABOUT ADVENTURE MODE? IT SUCKED!" but for me it added to the charm

This is why people hate "core" gamers.

[Joe Molotov]

Smash U is the real deal anyway. Smash 3D is just a taste before the feast.

[Takao]

Smash U is the real deal anyway. Smash 3D is just a taste before the feast.

Andrex alt?

[Joe Molotov]

Andrex doesn't even like Nintendo anymore. He's full of edgy teen angst now.

[magus]

not skeevy old men.

Explain ZSS then

[recursivelyenumerable]

But he looks like he's perpetually 12

[recursivelyenumerable]

Indeed it is

[The Legend of Sunblade]

http://forum.marvelous-usa.com/index.php?showtopic=27749

hey look, Tom is still being an idiot, this time without consent of his company AND after being told not to do so

Why is he still employed again?

[SpeedStats]

I was just gonna post that in here.

I dunno if I'm gonna buy their stuff as long as he's employed there anymore. Or until they tell him to stop doing PR.  Or until they put a leash on him. Whatever works.

Damn fool.

[magus]

so flappy bird guy made a new game



can't wait for the android market to be swarmed by flappy swing, swing birds, copter birds, fluctuating gyro and what else

 

[larrydavid]

he really can't help himself

why did i seriously just read through all of that, here is a for real phrase this idiot used: "But that's the subtle beauty of Akiba's Trip."

also this:

"Painting over the potentially hurtful elements of the game would be whitewashing history -- it would be like painting out the swastikas from early 1940s portraiture, or censoring every instance of the N-word in Django Unchained."

way to avoid saying "distinguished black fellow" as part of your 3000 word defense against political correctness and the unvarnished artistry of your stripping game, you dumb dumb creepster

[larrydavid]

haha that last line loses a lot of bite when it's board moderated, i wasn't being racist this time demi, i promise!

[demi]

Your racism is now available for everyone to see

[Cindi Mayweather]

so flappy bird guy made a new game



can't wait for the android market to be swarmed by flappy swing, swing birds, copter birds, fluctuating gyro and what else

This game sucks. Hard. The only good thing it has going for it is the "oh, I died, lemme try again for a few minutes" factor, which was the same thing I got from Flappy Bird.

[Great Rumbler]

Think about how much this guy gets paid per hour. Think about how many hours he's spent writing up posts defending the use of a single word.

Yeah.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

At least I think he gets paid, he might be doing all this for free.

[close]

[demi]

I'd rather he do this for free, I want some more fan translations released.

[Joe Molotov]

I'd rather he do this for free, I want some more fan translations released.

I'd like to read Tom's defense of the "I'll bet she fucks like a tiger!" line from DeJap's Tales of Phantasia translation.

[Cindi Mayweather]

Think about how much this guy gets paid per hour. Think about how many hours he's spent writing up posts defending the use of a single word.

Yeah.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

At least I think he gets paid, he might be doing all this for free.

[close]

Think of how many times he's jacked off to Loli anime porn.

[Great Rumbler]

Think about how much this guy gets paid per hour. Think about how many hours he's spent writing up posts defending the use of a single word.

Yeah.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

At least I think he gets paid, he might be doing all this for free.

[close]

Think of how many times he's jacked off to Loli anime porn.

Why would I want to do that?

[Rahxephon91]

Man I never knew that Ace Combat 3 was this amazing story heavy game.

I started playing Ace Combat 5 again for what seems like the thousandth  time. I've actually only played the PS2 and up games. So I just thought I'd google about the other ones and then I read about how amazing AC3 is with this story that sounds like Ghost in the Shell meets Macross Plus complete with branching story lines and anime cutscenes. Only to find out Namco took that all out for western release. Like what the fuck? AC3 sounded like the most interesting one. Makes me want to import the Japanese version. Guess it's another thing to add to my list.



It just looks cool. Something right up my alley.

[Cindi Mayweather]

Why in the world did namco do that when the game was released during the apex of the anime boom?

[Joe Molotov]

Probably didn't want to bother translating all them words.

[magus]

Probably didn't want to bother translating all them words.

AC3 isn't even the first example of namco botching a translation, tales of game pre-vesperia have tons of voice work cut out which is especialy hilarious in the case of gamecube symphonia where you have to watch the character flap their mouth like they are a bunch of fishes gasping for air



wow, someone on neogaf compiled a full list of namco translation fuckups!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2772926

my favourite is nightmare of druaga, it's a roguelike based on tower of druaga so like tower of druaga there is a lot of stuff hidden that you can find by using vague hints... well guess what? namco removed all of the hints! so you have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are supposed to do

good jon namco

[Positive Touch]

ahhh wtf I always wanted to pay Druaga dammit! fucking Namco, easily the worst of all the old big Japanese publishers.

[Cindi Mayweather]

If we are talking their primes, easily. But even namco gave us ridge racer 4 and Point Blank.

[Takao]

so flappy bird guy made a new game

can't wait for the android market to be swarmed by flappy swing, swing birds, copter birds, fluctuating gyro and what else

No need to wait. Never underestimate Google Play:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dong's Entertainment

[close]

https://twitter.com/___discovery/status/502481188838469632/photo/1

Also, I hope you're happy that Medabots has turned to the uguu school of character designs:

I was just gonna post that in here.

I dunno if I'm gonna buy their stuff as long as he's employed there anymore. Or until they tell him to stop doing PR.  Or until they put a leash on him. Whatever works.

Damn fool.

Outside of Falcom's stuff (of which XSEED will have little new to publish in the future, given Falcom's Trails focus) and maybe Corpse Party, it's not like you'd be missing much. Their parent company has become a Harvest Moon and boob game factory.

[larrydavid]

what i've learned from that namco fuckup thread is that ethel really liked tales games and 2006 era duckroll was concerned about bikini and panties related edits.

[magus]

so flappy bird guy made a new game

can't wait for the android market to be swarmed by flappy swing, swing birds, copter birds, fluctuating gyro and what else

No need to wait. Never underestimate Google Play:
(Image removed from quote.)

jesus fucking christ on a jumping pogo stick