A Song of Ice and Fire discussion

[ZephyrFate]

Drogon chapter was brilliant though

[Phoenix Dark]

I thought Dany's last chapter in ADWD was one of the worst in the series, despite the interesting ending/twist *shrug*

[BlueTsunami]

All of Danny's chapters in ADWD meander. There was no arc there; in my mind I see it as a flat line for 3/4ths of the book then a slight spike. Its crazy how I somehow gleaned more enjoyment from the melancholy of a book that is AFFC with its off beat characters and felt like I was slogging through the book with the beloved ones in ADWD.

[Phoenix Dark]

I liked the politics of Mereen to a degree, I just wish there had been more progress instead of a replay of the same stuff Awesom-O listed.

One of the best things about Dany's POVs were her interactions with Barriston. The aftermath of the fight pit was amazing; Barriston has some of the best chapters in the novel

[Diunx]

I feel like I understand Fistful a little better now...

[fistfulofmetal]

Just finished ADWD.

It's unfortunate that PD spoiled

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Jon getting ganked

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because that would have been cool to have not know. The chapter was great tho with the letter.

Overall much better book than AFFC. Much better characters and situations.

I really liked Dany's final chapter.

I think the story is doing a good job transitioning from the previous arc to the current arc. Setting up new sets of characters and stuff.

[Phoenix Dark]

I definitely agree ADWD sets up an end game, or at least gives a glimpse of it, whereas AFFC did not. And once again I'm sorry for the spoiler, I still feel shitty

Question for you: do you believe the letter is real?

in terms of where the series stands:

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-Chaos at the Wall, which is going to get hit soon-ish. The public assassination seems extremely stupid when you consider nearly all of the wildlings respect Jon for saving them. Tormund is gonna fuck some people up, and I'd imagine Melisandre will preserve Jon's body; perhaps this further confirms Jon is a Targ, given Dany's vision of a blue rose in the Wall.

-Chaos in King's Landing. Sounds like they don't consider "Aegon" a major threat yet, and when Cersei regains power that will probably continue. No word on Margery's trial either, which could further ruin things. Seems like the Tyrells could presumably side with Aegon to me

-Dany a warrior queen again. I don't see the point of her killing the entire khalasar; she'll most likely kill the khal and everyone will bow to her. At which point she leads them back to Mereen to break the siege..? I have a feeling she won't go back immediately, considering what happened in Victarion's TWOW chapter

-Winterfell...well, I'll wait until everyone reads the TWOW chap

It really seems like winter is going to devastate a lot of people. Tywin burned the harvests in ASOS so we could see a lot of starvation and an uprising...which could be just the thing to convince the common folks to side with Aegon

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[whiteACID]

I'm not reading through all of this thread. I will just put out there that I was a little disappointed with ADWD. Dany turned into a giant pussy. Tyrion wasn't as funny as he usually is.

[Phoenix Dark]

yea but the Tyrion reaches his emotional bottom in the book, after what happens in ASOS. I loved reading him develop as his deeds finally caught up with him.

[whiteACID]

Ya whatever. I liked him better when he was cynical and didn't give as much of a shit. His best stuff was always when he was talking to Jon Snow.

[Phoenix Dark]

agreed on Dany. She went from warrior queen to bleeding heart loser

at least she seems to have woken up at the end of ADWD 

[TakingBackSunday]

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Wait, PD, you think Jon is dead?  I think he's alive.

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[Human Snorenado]

I'm not reading through all of this thread. I will just put out there that I was a little disappointed with ADWD. Dany turned into a giant pussy. Tyrion wasn't as funny as he usually is.

*fist bump*

That's my girl.

[ZephyrFate]

Ya whatever. I liked him better when he was cynical and didn't give as much of a shit. His best stuff was always when he was talking to Jon Snow.

Virtually impossible for him to return to that self after what happened in ASOS.

[Human Snorenado]

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Wait, PD, you think Jon is dead?  I think he's alive.

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A little long but you get the idea

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[whiteACID]

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Wait, PD, you think Jon is dead?  I think he's alive.

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The way I see it. He can't be. HE JUST CAN'T BE.
Tyrion, Jon, Dany. They are the holy trinity...I think if any of them were to die, the series would just be over for me. And a lot of people. I don't think GRRM would kill any of those 3 off.

[Phoenix Dark]

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He's dead, but that doesn't mean he'll stay dead. You don't survive getting stabbed in the neck, stomach and back. Melisandre has already predicted he'll be a man then wolf then man again, so he warged into Ghost. Melisandre might heal him like the other red priest healed Victarion.

Personally I think he'll be frozen under the Wall and could stay there until Dany arrives, or Stannis. Dunno

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[TakingBackSunday]

seriously.  out of anyone, I could see Tyrion kicking it near the end

[Human Snorenado]

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He's dead, but that doesn't mean he'll stay dead. You don't survive getting stabbed in the neck, stomach and back. Melisandre has already predicted he'll be a man then wolf then man again, so he warged into Ghost. Melisandre might heal him like the other red priest healed Victarion.

Personally I think he'll be frozen under the Wall and could stay there until Dany arrives, or Stannis. Dunno

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Bran could have something to do with it as well, imo

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[Phoenix Dark]

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He's dead, but that doesn't mean he'll stay dead. You don't survive getting stabbed in the neck, stomach and back. Melisandre has already predicted he'll be a man then wolf then man again, so he warged into Ghost. Melisandre might heal him like the other red priest healed Victarion.

Personally I think he'll be frozen under the Wall and could stay there until Dany arrives, or Stannis. Dunno

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Bran could have something to do with it as well, imo

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TWOW sample spoiler:

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In Theon's chapter, Stannis is about to burn Theon until the ravens start screaming "tree, tree" at which point Asha dares Stannis to behead him on the weirwood tree. Sounds like Bran does indeed have something planned. Perhaps Theon's kingsblood in exchange for Jon's life?

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[fistfulofmetal]

one thing that i really let go over my head is Jon and who his parents are

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so people think Ned is not his father?

there's enough back story and i'm real bad at keeping track of all the Targaryeons and who fucked who, who killed who etc etc. i just barely remember the fact that the little kid Aegon was supposedly killed by Gregor Clegane. so i'm all wtf. can someone run the theories down for me plz?

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[TakingBackSunday]

read this

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories

[Phoenix Dark]

On Aegon..
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p844r/adwd_spoilers_and_speculation_septon_meribald/

Also on Jon, the producers of the show pretty much confirmed R+L=J. They said when they first sat down with Martin, he tested their knowledge of the series by asking who Jon's parents were. Weiss said he told Martin what he thought was the answer, and he confirmed they were correct...

[TakingBackSunday]

squee.  that makes me happy.  Also guarantees Jon is gonna be a muthafugin wolf king

[Phoenix Dark]

There's really nothing else they could have possibly told Martin, it has to be R+L.

Now the question becomes: did Rhaegar marry Lyanna. Also is there any proof of their union, or proof that Rhaegar is the father. Howland Reed is the only person who would know for sure

I always found it weird that despite Rhaegar allegedly raping and beating his sister, Ned never says or thinks a single bad thing about Rhaegar. Instead he remembers him as being a decent dude. So yea...

[TakingBackSunday]

Allegedly? I'm about a third through ADWD, but from accounts I've read regarding the entire theory, Rhaegar was actually quite taken with Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhal.  Who knows, maybe the "abduction" was simply a way for Lyanna to be with Rhaegar, maybe she felt the same.  Their recklessness causing the Rebellion?  I don't know, perhaps.

[Phoenix Dark]

I say allegedly because that's the official story. But if Ned truly believed that we would know by now.

ADWD throws a couple wrenches into the theory, dunno if you've gotten to those parts. But I think they may just be red herrings.

[Bebpo]

So I'm reading Book #3 and I just was lalalala reading this chapter tonight and

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WTF THEY JUST KILLED ROBB AND CATELYN 

FUCK
FUCK
FucKKKKKK

I HATE YOU GRRM 

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[Phoenix Dark]

Serious post? I thought you read the series already 

[Bebpo]

Currently reading it, started after HBO S1 ended.

So yes, serious post.

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Between this scene and the books never ending, I kind of feel like what is the point in even reading this series any further :\

Really really pissed off right now.  I kind of expected he might die at some point, but didn't expect the mother as well.

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[Bebpo]

Just finished ASOS.  Was good.  I can't imagine having to wait 10 years to see the next chapters for some of these characters.  Makes me worried about catching up and having to wait for book 6

[ZephyrFate]

Currently reading it, started after HBO S1 ended.

So yes, serious post.

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Between this scene and the books never ending, I kind of feel like what is the point in even reading this series any further :\

Really really pissed off right now.  I kind of expected he might die at some point, but didn't expect the mother as well.

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Because the books are great, so it's worth it for that.

[Bebpo]

My favorite to least favorite viewpoints at the end of ASOS:

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Jaime > Tyrion > Davos (w/Stannis) > Arya >>>>>>> Cat (w/Robb) > Sansa (w/Tyrion/Littlefinger) >>>>>> Dany (zzz) > Jon (zzz) > Bran (zzz) > Sam (zzz)

Jaime/Tyrion/Stannis are the most interesting characters, Arya's trip is cool because she meets lots of great characters.  But Dany's story is just ok (she's annoying) and everything in the north is decent but a bit boring though it got better at the end when they mixed Stannis in.

Looking forward to seeing Arya's MAGIC ASSASSIN BROTHERHOOD trip to the east.  Not looking forward to more Dany and Zombie Cat at the end of ASOS had me shaking my head.  She was kind of an annoyingly cold bitter bitchy woman alive, I don't even want to think about how  she's going to be as a zombie.

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[Phoenix Dark]

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Dany...boring in ASOS? She goes full warrior princess and wrecks folks. Jon's ASOS stuff is great too, Sam has such a great first chapter. Agreed on Tyrion, Davos, and Jaime though - amazing stuff. But I'd include Jon in there, and Sam.

Bran's POV was great too, just painfully short. That chapter where the stuff comes out the well...oh man

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[Bebpo]

I started AFFC.  It's ok so far.  It feels like the chapters are longer than Books 1-3 and they kind of go on and on.  I like stories in them just as much as Books 1-3, and the dialogue is great, but it's just filled to the brim with descriptions of every rock, thought, and cock.

I'm gonna take my time with this book and book #5.  Just read them on exercise bikes and stuff a little a day.  Goal is to finish both before S3 of the TV version starts next April.

[Bebpo]

I'm 70% through AFFC.  I like a lot about it and have only a few complaints.  But this post is not about AFFC.  It's about how I was timing finishing up AFFC to coincide with the August 28th release of the paperback version of ADWD so I can keep going while it's fresh in my mind.  Then I got an e-mail this morning that the paperback of ADWD was delayed until March 26, 2013.

 

I think I might have to read a hardcover for the first time in years.  I really prefer paperback since it's easier to read on a treadmill or find a place to set it down in the bathroom.  Plus it won't match my paperbacks of the other books in the series.

Booooo


Best things about AFFC so far:

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The Dorne & Ironborn stories

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Worst things about AFFC so far:

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Cersei constantly sending off people to kill off/fuck everything up with characters you like & killing the hound in an off-hand comment by a priest  :'(  I liked his character a lot in Books 2-3 and was hoping he survived the end of book 3 and would still be a major character in the story (kind of thought he'd be brought back from the edge of death by Beric and the Outlaws and join up with them).  OH WELL.

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[Phoenix Dark]

If a body isn't provided, chances are that person isn't dead.

[Bebpo]

I normally would believe that, as that's typically how these stories roll.  Hence me not buying

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Davos death

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However, this elder priest guy says

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I found him on the riverbank, treated his wounds as best I could, but he died in my arms and I buried him deep in the earth and put his helm on top of the grave when someone came by and stole it.

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I'll be thrilled if he's still alive and kicking in the story when I read ADWD, but that seemed like a pretty legit off-screen death.

[Phoenix Dark]

Ah since you've read that part I'll just point something out

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Most speculation on The Hound points to him being alive, and actually the grave digger Brienne walks past while talking to the priest; he's described as very large with lame leg (the same one The Hound was injured in). The Hound's horse is also kept in the stables

Basically  the theory is that the septon tended his wounds, and he converted to the seven. Hence the language about The Hound dying, similar to the way many Christians would refer to themselves before finding Christ. In fact the priest tells a similar story about himself being a drunkard before he died, and was reborn after converting.

the basics:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62348-the-hound-spoilers/#entry3033268

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[Bebpo]

Cool, thanks.  That's interesting.


It'll be neat after I catch up at the end of ADWD to read all the speculation and theories from the series.  Not touching that wiki until I do though.

[Phoenix Dark]

On a side note imo the entire passage of AFFC featuring the priest/septon is the best written part of the series

[ZephyrFate]

On a side note imo the entire passage of AFFC featuring the priest/septon is the best written part of the series

ZephyrFate likes this.

[Phoenix Dark]

seriously bro we should just get married, we agree on everything omg

I also love the Doran Martell dialogue

I think the book would have been appreciated more if it had been released 1-2 years after SOS instead of five; the wait certainly soured people. Also perhaps moving some of the more action packed parts of ADWD into AFFC would have worked wonders for the attention deficit disorder crowd. Which of course would have left room for the two major things that were removed from ADWD due to time

[ZephyrFate]

i'm down, for the tax breaks. we'll just make it open so you can continue to screw women to hide your real sexuality 

[Bebpo]

Ok, finished AFFC.  I think it was almoooost as good as the other books.  The last 200 pages were really close to following the structure of the other books when MAJOR EVENTS began to happen:

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Jaime solving Riverrun, Bren fighting Biter, Cersei having her plans unraveled and thrown in a cell in the Sept.

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But then the last 100 pages, instead of continuing to be CONCLUSION MAJOR CHAPTERS for all the characters, were a bunch of transitory chapters setting up the next set:

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Sansa bringing Robert down the Eyrie and learning about her soon to be marriage; Sam getting into Oldtown and telling the Archmaester his story; Jaime ordering Riverrun cleanup

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so it kind of toppled down in the end.  There wasn't even an epilogue chapter or anything.  Didn't feel as satisfying because of that.  A different set of last 100 pages and I would have put it up there with books 1-3, but if those are 5/5 star books, this is more like a 4/5 star.  It's entertaining, very very well written, the characters are interesting with lots of good scenes, but yeah not a whole lot happens and every other chapter feels about 10 pages too long.  I used to finish chapters in one sitting, but with AFFC I'd sometimes stop 3/4ths through a chapter and finish it up next time.

Man, AFFC could have been as MAJOR as books 1-3 if it just went a step further:

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In having the rest of Cersei's story play out completely in AFFC; Jaime abandoning her and then hopefully her getting destroyed at trail and dying.

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AFFC though was Jaime & Brienne.  Their adventures were really good an interesting.  They were like grown up versions of Arya's adventure in Books 1&2.  Cersei started out lolz but just got really lame and I kind of hated all her chapters.  Samwell was ok but a little slow and dull.  Arya & Sansa actually switched in AFFC.  It used to be in Books 2/3 that Arya had good chapters and Sansa had boring ones.  In AFFC, ALL of Sansa's chapters were awesome, she really needed more of them.  Meanwhile Arya went from having an incredibly interesting story in Books 1-3 to having a couple chapters of standing around doing nothing

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outside of the awesome part where she murders Dareon the deserter from the wall by slitting his throat and tossing him in the river

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Arya needs to move on and start having an adventure again.

My favorite part in the book though was:

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When Margery is talking to Cersei in her cell at the end, and Margery realizes Cersei set it all up and she calls he a stupid bitch to her face.  So satisfying!  Jaime burning the HELP ME letter from Cersei was great as well

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Will start ADWD in a couple of weeks.  Just gonna get the hardcover because no way I'm waiting until March 2013 to read it.  I can't wait months between books!  (I'm going to be so screwed after I catch up and have to wait years ;_;)

[Bebpo]

Also, I don't like that it left on so many cliffhangers.  Felt like there were too many loose ends, and I don't like how they didn't work in the longass intro chapter until the very final chapter and more specifically the last few lines.

[Phoenix Dark]

While AFFC doesn't have an epilogue, the last chapter is a direct continuation of the prologue, and therefore could be seen as an epilogue:

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In the prologue, the alchemist asks Pate for a particular iron key to the Citadel, in exchange for a golden coin; he's called "the alchemist" because Pate observes he is trading iron for gold. After the exchange Pate bites down on the coin, and shortly thereafter dies.

Yet in the last chapter of AFFC, Pate shows up again and meets Sam. It's generally accepted that the alchemist was a Faceless Man, and impersonating Pate in order to access the Citadel with the key. Why? The Citadel holds a book that describes how to kill dragons, as well as how to birth them. In the last chapter, Marywn tells Sam that the maesters killed the dragons and are invested in destroying all magic. So why does a Faceless Man want the book? There are theories they want the book to learn how to kill Dany's dragons; the Faceless Men are descendants of Bravosi who were once enslaved by the Targaryen's, who ruled them with dragons. Whether that made them hate dragons to this day, who knows it's just a theory. They might also want the book to protect Dany's dragons.

Finally, the mind fuck:

Arya in ACOK, describing Jaqen changing his face

His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Pate in AFFC prologue, describing the alchemist

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man’s face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears.

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[Bebpo]

Hmmm, so

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Jahqen kills Pate and changes into him to infiltrate the Citadel and Samwell meets him.  Ok, cool, but still not particularly satisfying or interesting since nothing happens there in this book.

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That reminds me, another issue I had with AFFC is there were waaaaay too many chance meetings where characters happened to run across other characters from the series to show where they are currently.  Like, books 1-3 didn't have anywhere near this amount of chance meetings.  It just got to the point where it felt a bit contrived and unrealistic.  Westeroes is BIG!  The chance of everyone running into each other so much is kind of low

[Phoenix Dark]

All the books feature cliff hangers though, and I thought they were good except for the Brienne one which leaves you hanging literally. Plus AFFC tells half of a story; it was originally one long ass book but was split into two. Dance addresses most of the cliff hangers

[Bebpo]

Sounds good.  Looking forward I starting it in a month or two. 

[Diunx]

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/News/Entry/Dominic_West_Passes_on_Game_of_Thrones_Role/

Damn he would have been perfect!!!

[Phoenix Dark]

Would have been a waste imo. I don't want a big name for Mance considering he doesn't have a huge role in the books. Which means the writers would have to create new scenes to justify the actor spending half a year in Iceland

same problem I have with Gillen as Littlefinger. Great actor but bad in the role, and the writers have given him a bunch of new scenes that are quite weak.

[Freyj]

They'll create new scenes regardless. Mance is interesting, he's different. Within a couple of seasons he'll be a completely different character than he is in the books.

Who knows how McNulty would've worked out though. I didn't particularly care for Gillen in The Wire (or any of the political shit outside of Clay Davis), but I've never liked him as Littlefinger.

[Human Snorenado]

Would have been a waste imo. I don't want a big name for Mance considering he doesn't have a huge role in the books. Which means the writers would have to create new scenes to justify the actor spending half a year in Iceland

same problem I have with Gillen as Littlefinger. Great actor but bad in the role, and the writers have given him a bunch of new scenes that are quite weak.

I really like the Littlefinger/Varys scenes, whatchu talkin' bout Maurice

[Bebpo]

He's talking about all the Littlefinger brothel scenes.

[Phoenix Dark]

Would have been a waste imo. I don't want a big name for Mance considering he doesn't have a huge role in the books. Which means the writers would have to create new scenes to justify the actor spending half a year in Iceland

same problem I have with Gillen as Littlefinger. Great actor but bad in the role, and the writers have given him a bunch of new scenes that are quite weak.

I really like the Littlefinger/Varys scenes, whatchu talkin' bout Maurice

I like those overall, but my problem is everything else. His accent changes from scene to scene, and most of his scenes are written oddly. Not every role needs a "big" name imo...

Sure Mance will get new scenes regardless of who plays him, but I feel like an established actor makes it more likely the writers stretch things

[Phoenix Dark]

New Martin interview with quite a bombshell
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71917-new-grrm-interview/

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Q: Did Howland Reed stand witness to the promise Ned made to Lyanna?
Martin: (Silence) No.

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boom. I'm actually glad. Many fans view that character as a deus ex machina who will explain everything, reveal The Hero, and lead him to his destiny. While the general R+L=J theory is more than likely true, this at least seems to kill the possibility that any character can actually confirm it 100%.

[Human Snorenado]

New Martin interview with quite a bombshell
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71917-new-grrm-interview/

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Q: Did Howland Reed stand witness to the promise Ned made to Lyanna?
Martin: (Silence) No.

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boom. I'm actually glad. Many fans view that character as a deus ex machina who will explain everything, reveal The Hero, and lead him to his destiny. While the general R+L=J theory is more than likely true, this at least seems to kill the possibility that any character can actually confirm it 100%.

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Other than, you know, when Dany gets to the wall and Resurrected Jon Snow tames a dragon n shit

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[Phoenix Dark]

New Martin interview with quite a bombshell
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71917-new-grrm-interview/

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Q: Did Howland Reed stand witness to the promise Ned made to Lyanna?
Martin: (Silence) No.

[close]

boom. I'm actually glad. Many fans view that character as a deus ex machina who will explain everything, reveal The Hero, and lead him to his destiny. While the general R+L=J theory is more than likely true, this at least seems to kill the possibility that any character can actually confirm it 100%.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Other than, you know, when Dany gets to the wall and Resurrected Jon Snow tames a dragon n shit

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I want to see what they do if they run into "Aegon." Assuming Dany ever leaves that shit hole continent. fuckin' Martin..

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[Human Snorenado]

I don't know why we're talking about this like it's ever gonna get finished before he dies