Author Topic: star trek  (Read 330665 times)

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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #960 on: November 02, 2017, 02:09:07 AM »
Came across what I thought was the first truly great episode of Enterprise. There have been plenty of good to very good episodes of the show but arguably not so many where I could easily put it in a time capsule and say this is as good as it gets for various reasons.

Dear Doctor was a very good episode and similar to the one I'm talking about. Shockwave both parts are very good episodes. But Cogenitor is to me what Trek is about. A good moral dilemma that is evenly balanced on both sides so its hard to feel good with whatever decision is made.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cogenitor_(episode)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogenitor

I have a weird tick where if a piece of entertainment makes me tense, sometimes I'll just pause it and come back to it later right in the middle of the episode. It's odd. I wish I didn't do it, but its my way of dealing with an overload of tension. Sometimes just a minute is enough. Sometimes it takes 10 minutes. Sometimes I'll stop and come back to it the next day. This episode made me take three of those little breaks. I think this episode tensed me up because it telegraphs where its going super early so the tension builds to an inevitable easy to see climax that is still satisfying. But dealing with the tension the whole episode causes my little tick to surface.


btw this might be the shittiest trailer of all time for anything. If this is how they advertised the show, no wonder people tuned out. Completely misses the point of the episode.




chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #961 on: November 02, 2017, 02:16:06 AM »
 I’m still in season one of enterprise, and at the episode where the noncombatant members of the main foil Race are locked up in relocation camps. I got a nice giggle out of seeing Dean Stockwell and Scott Bakula on screen at the same time again in a new series.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #962 on: November 02, 2017, 02:19:19 AM »
I’m still in season one of enterprise, and at the episode where the noncombatant members of the main foil Race are locked up in relocation camps. I got a nice giggle out of seeing Dean Stockwell and Scott Bakula on screen at the same time again in a new series.

The funny thing is I've never seen a single episode of Quantum Leap despite it being sort of beloved among nerdom. Maybe I'll give that a try after I finish Enterprise.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #963 on: November 02, 2017, 02:21:20 AM »
I’m still in season one of enterprise, and at the episode where the noncombatant members of the main foil Race are locked up in relocation camps. I got a nice giggle out of seeing Dean Stockwell and Scott Bakula on screen at the same time again in a new series.

The funny thing is I've never seen a single episode of Quantum Leap despite it being sort of beloved among nerdom. Maybe I'll give that a try after I finish Enterprise.

 I’ve only seen a few episodes of it as well, but there are just a few veiled lines between the two of them that I thought were charming.

FatRiker

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Re: star trek
« Reply #964 on: November 02, 2017, 07:27:24 AM »
I'm currently flicking through episodes of TNG that I hadn't seen in... at least a decade.  I just watched "Force Of Nature", which is that one about those two aliens with the sideways vagina foreheads warning Starfleet about warp drive destroying the space ozone layer. It was okay.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #965 on: November 02, 2017, 08:22:17 AM »
Garrett Wang has been outspoken about that stuff for a very long time. Tim Russ and the rest of the Voyager people have regularly brought up tensions with Seven/Ryan, but Wang has always been the one to come right out and say it was Mulgrew being a bitch to her. And that was sorta how the whole cast bonded around Ryan was that they all hated how the show was being run and wanted to have there be no off set tensions between them and the newbie. I have heard that Mulgrew and Ryan have kinda made up and IIRC, she even mentioned not too long ago that she gave Ryan a hard time out of frustration with how the show was going and Seven's being shoved to the front past everyone who had been there on the show and she regretted not being more welcoming.

Enterprise was always advertised like that, even Voyager. UPN did a lot of ACTION ACTION ACTION THIS WEEEEEEEEKKKKK and then there's like a twenty second fist fight 40 minutes in and most of the episode is dialogue and technobabble. Voyager and DS9's promos always seemed like they were grabbing a ship blowing up from another episode and sticking it into the promo. :lol

FatRiker

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Re: star trek
« Reply #966 on: November 02, 2017, 08:30:26 AM »
UPN Star Trek trailers are like those ads for speedway events people joke about. Though if Enterprise actually had monster trucks and sprint cars in it, the show would have lasted 7 seasons.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #967 on: November 02, 2017, 08:30:43 AM »
this was peak promo probably

trailer:


the entire and only scene featuring The Rock:


The other 40 minutes of the episode don't involve the Rock's character at all.

ALSO: JEFFREY COMBS ALERT

FatRiker

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Re: star trek
« Reply #968 on: November 02, 2017, 08:42:13 AM »
I like how the only time Jeffrey Combs and J.G. Hertzler appeared on Voyager was in the episode with The Rock. It's more amusing that it should be.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #969 on: November 02, 2017, 10:04:31 AM »
I like that Enterprise is like, "We can never have too much Jeffrey Combs. I know he's already on DS9, but how about we bring him in as a Tholian for Enterprise!?"

Two episodes later: "Let's also bring him on as a Ferengi!"

…but it's true: You can't have too much Combs.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #970 on: November 05, 2017, 05:41:53 PM »
Finished up Season 2 of Enterprise.

It was okay. Probably not as good as season 1 for me. While I did absolutely adore that one episode I mentioned above, the season as a whole was missing some spark. It was basically the same as season one just with more meh episodes. They also seemed to drop the whole temporal time war thing that was in season 1. I mean it was barely in season 1 but outside of the first episode of Season 2, it was gone.

Instead they seemed to put in a minor plot thing about Archer and the Klingons having a beef but I never especially liked those episodes.

Readng up on the season after, this seemed to be a "controversial" episode as some people absolutely detested it, but I thought it was fine personally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Night_in_Sickbay




The episode I hated was this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_Point_(Star_Trek:_Enterprise)

Made zero sense to me.

Apparently season 3 is darker and more serial oriented so we'll see what I think about that.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 05:56:30 PM by Stoney Mason »

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #971 on: November 05, 2017, 06:08:42 PM »
You're ahead of me!

I'll likely continue falling behind, so I'm grateful for your largely spoiler-free reviews.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #972 on: November 05, 2017, 06:17:38 PM »
You're ahead of me!

I'll likely continue falling behind, so I'm grateful for your largely spoiler-free reviews.

lol. yeah, I tried not to spoil too much.


Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #973 on: November 05, 2017, 10:44:13 PM »
Discovery episode was average/fine when it came to plot advancement but not so good when it came to plot logic. Looks like next week is mid-season finale until they bring back the show in January.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
So Saru just assaulted two Star Fleet crew members and basically committed mutiny. They had an opportunity to just paste over this plot wise and say the aliens controlled his mind like in plenty of other star trek episodes and purposely chose not to.

That's as "bad" as what Burnham did but I have a feeling they will just ignore that plotwise and that's weird.

The klingon stuff was interesting but once again I don't understand why they klingon women did what she did. I mean she was going to defect. Decides not to and assumes that the leader is an idiot. Seems like plot shenanigans just to keep her there for the big battle next week.
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« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 10:53:59 PM by Stoney Mason »

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #974 on: November 06, 2017, 08:37:43 AM »
Just about to wrap up s1 of Enterprise. Probably tomorrow. I enjoyed the four-episode chain of trying to get to The Pleasure Planet of Risa for their shore leave. Thought the Vox Sola episode had a nice twist on the creepy, Alien-esque episode, including some nice literary mirroring with the offended aliens storming off due to a cultural difference about eating.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #975 on: November 06, 2017, 11:55:47 AM »
Just about to wrap up s1 of Enterprise. Probably tomorrow. I enjoyed the four-episode chain of trying to get to The Pleasure Planet of Risa for their shore leave. Thought the Vox Sola episode had a nice twist on the creepy, Alien-esque episode, including some nice literary mirroring with the offended aliens storming off due to a cultural difference about eating.

The episode about the alien monster was decent enough but I couldn't help thinking during most of the episode of those actors stuck in that silly looking webbing for the entire production lol.

Also here is a decent blog where they reviewed every single episode. Its fun to compare my thoughts to theirs after seeing an episde. And the good thing is that the reviews are done in the last couple of years. That's more interesting to me than what somebody thought when the shows first aired. The reviews are at the bottom of the page. Skip over the top portion as that is basically a review of the entire show overall.


https://them0vieblog.com/reviews-hub/star-trek-enterprise-reviews/

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #976 on: November 06, 2017, 03:48:28 PM »
The biggest crazy awesome Trek fanatic on the web did all his reviews in retrospect, as he's done all his reviews except the three new movies that way:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ent.htm

He gave A Night in Sickbay one of the five 0's he's given to a Enterprise episode. Enterprise has as many 0 rated episodes as TNG/DS9/VOY combined. :lol And TOS/TAS only adds three more.

Though he does appear to be doing Discovery as it airs which makes sense:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/dis.htm

Stoney, what did you think of The Catwalk episode where they have to hide out in the nacille's to avoid a storm? I really like that episode for doing some "ship world building" until they find somebody else on the ship and have to go a hunting for the last ten minutes or whatever. I thought it would have been more interesting to just keep with the drama/frustrations from being in such cramped quarters. (When even their regular ship locations are dinky compared to Voyager or Enterprise-D.) Enterprise to me always kinda had this problem, much like Voyager, where they've got a good premise but at some point they have to add in more garbage and the whole plot tips over.

Season three is mostly serialized, with subplots continuing from one episode to the next and throughout the season, it's not full on serialized though there's mini-arcs where what they did last episode leads directly into this episode. I'm not sure it's "darker" it's just that the show kinda delivers on the promise of what Voyager and itself could have been/should have been, as they head into unknown space and they can't pop back to safety, they have to keep going forward on this mission and where it gets "darker" is mainly the crew having to deal with this year long mission and its importance and what actions they're all prepared or not to take. It never really reaches that "Year of Hell" as an actual season level of despair.

Season four kinda splits the difference, there's no season-long plot. But there's a bundle of three or four or two episode arcs that are direct continuations from the prior episodes. And two of the arcs are related, and another pair share some thematic points.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #977 on: November 06, 2017, 04:58:39 PM »
Stoney, what did you think of The Catwalk episode where they have to hide out in the nacille's to avoid a storm? I really like that episode for doing some "ship world building" until they find somebody else on the ship and have to go a hunting for the last ten minutes or whatever. I thought it would have been more interesting to just keep with the drama/frustrations from being in such cramped quarters. (When even their regular ship locations are dinky compared to Voyager or Enterprise-D.) Enterprise to me always kinda had this problem, much like Voyager, where they've got a good premise but at some point they have to add in more garbage and the whole plot tips over.

I'm gonna spoiler tag all of this so I don't spoil stuff for chrono.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Your bolded is dead on for enterprise. I like the show more than voyager (although Season 3 a few episodes in starts to resemble voyager) but they often ruin an episode that has promise by not knowing what to do with it beyond the initial setup

The first season was really good for me. Looking back on reviews people seem to hate the first season but I don't. I think its really fun and exciting and has a lot of energy. Of course there are mis-step episodes but I really do feel like their heart is in the right place. There is an optimism and energy there that works for me. It just doesn't feel like a rehash to me.

The second season is problematic. Because the stories start to feel very star trek formula and their execution slips. I started finding myself annoyed with episodes and complaining in my head about how they should have done something in a particular way instead of what they did.

How you wished the catwalk episode would have gone is kind of the reason I like A Night in Sickbay. I like when they do Trek episodes that are relatively low stakes and are just about how the crew get along. I understand the complaints about it, but I just like scenes where the doctor is asking archer about his sex life and stuff. When so many episodes are about the ship about to be blown up or some evil alien about to do something bad, I like those episodes where we get to see the crew in non life and death situations. Even silly ones.

I'm a few episodes into Season 3 and the change is pretty clear and obvious. The show is darker. It's completely serial. etc. That being said, I thought the first few episodes of it are kind of terrible. I know its supposed to improve as the season progresses and I'm sure it will, but it kind of shows that just being serial in and of itself isn't a fix for some issues. I'm aware that a decent chunk of people really like this season though and season 4 until the finale (which I remember even when it originally aired that everybody hated) apparently so it will be interesting to experience it myself.
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chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #978 on: November 06, 2017, 06:22:48 PM »
Stoney, you're a gem. Thanks again for the spoiler consideration.

Just about to wrap up s1 of Enterprise. Probably tomorrow. I enjoyed the four-episode chain of trying to get to The Pleasure Planet of Risa for their shore leave. Thought the Vox Sola episode had a nice twist on the creepy, Alien-esque episode, including some nice literary mirroring with the offended aliens storming off due to a cultural difference about eating.

The episode about the alien monster was decent enough but I couldn't help thinking during most of the episode of those actors stuck in that silly looking webbing for the entire production lol.

Also here is a decent blog where they reviewed every single episode. Its fun to compare my thoughts to theirs after seeing an episde. And the good thing is that the reviews are done in the last couple of years. That's more interesting to me than what somebody thought when the shows first aired. The reviews are at the bottom of the page. Skip over the top portion as that is basically a review of the entire show overall.


https://them0vieblog.com/reviews-hub/star-trek-enterprise-reviews/
I'll check that site out, thanks.

Allay those fears about trapped cast members, lieutenant! The shooting schedule almost certainly shot each of those webbed-up scenes at once. Scenes are commonly shot non sequentially so the set and makeup don't have to be re-lit, re-built, re-done.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #979 on: November 07, 2017, 06:17:07 PM »


lol

relevant because of the recent direction of the thread.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #980 on: November 07, 2017, 06:47:45 PM »
:lol

Yeah, it fits, but DAMN that song is so late '90s…!

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #981 on: November 08, 2017, 04:27:28 AM »
like DS9 did halfway through its run, Enterprise also changed its theme song (as well as adding "Star Trek" to the title) with one that has an altered tempo and uses different instrumentation for the third and fourth season, just used youdubber with that video:
http://www.youdubber.com/index.php?video=tof6DUdM7IY&video_start=0&audio=LBUEQVS8kbQ&audio_start=0

actually lines up a little bit better with the imagery, including a stray cymbal when the ship disturbs the orange worm thing :lol

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #982 on: November 08, 2017, 04:40:32 AM »
Discovery's almost works as well for Enterprise, time offset because of the shorter credits for ENT:
http://www.youdubber.com/index.php?video=bbnTZREMEJI&video_start=0&audio=ZcTvrxwP6Is&audio_start=12

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #983 on: November 08, 2017, 08:48:31 AM »
like DS9 did halfway through its run, Enterprise also changed its theme song (as well as adding "Star Trek" to the title) with one that has an altered tempo and uses different instrumentation for the third and fourth season, just used youdubber with that video:
http://www.youdubber.com/index.php?video=tof6DUdM7IY&video_start=0&audio=LBUEQVS8kbQ&audio_start=0

actually lines up a little bit better with the imagery, including a stray cymbal when the ship disturbs the orange worm thing :lol

I went and looked up s3 Enterprise theme song and was sad that it's barely changed. It's like Kenny Loggins on Xanax.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #984 on: November 08, 2017, 04:52:07 PM »
I always thought voyager had a great intro and great music. The show never really lived up to it. gussied up version below






chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #985 on: November 08, 2017, 06:28:01 PM »
I'm trying to watch A Night in Sickbay right now, and it's really an odd-ball-out episode. Archer is being a whiny, defensive, unreasonable twit. It's out of character with the thirty episodes which preceded this. The Doctor is shown to be comic relief, but it succeeds only on making him out to be some kind of laughable freak, whose bodily secretions and waste materials are used symbiotically to keep the various creatures in his medical facility running. It's not funny, it's disturbing.

The Kreetassans are actually a great alien race, with their social mores being so different and their manners being so apparently unidirectional.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #986 on: November 08, 2017, 07:02:37 PM »
lol yeah a lot of the fandom detest the episode apparently. I didn't but I understand why people have issues with it.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #987 on: November 08, 2017, 08:33:56 PM »
lol yeah a lot of the fandom detest the episode apparently. I didn't but I understand why people have issues with it.
It's just weirdly inconsistent! When I thought about the Kreetassans being offended about eating rituals, it made me think about how Korean youths can't drink in front of their elders, and have to go through a bit of dinnertable theater to "hide" their drinking, despite the fact that everyone knows they're drinking. Hell, the elders would be offended if they didn't drink; the younger people are relegated to this ritualized hiding.

And as for eating, just imagine how Archer and his crew would react if some race took them to their vomitorium, or a group toilet where bowel movements were a ritualized social activity. They'd be shocked.

So Archer's baby-ish attitude, which hasn't been his hallmark, is front-and-center during the episode, it's weird.

I liked the 0-star review of it. It's pretty accurate. I'll try and finish it over lunch.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #988 on: November 09, 2017, 05:49:36 PM »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #989 on: November 10, 2017, 03:45:48 AM »
Enterprise related so I'll spoiler it out for chrono

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pretty deep into Season 3. Just finished episode 19.

So the thing is I'm very mixed on season 3. I think the highs are high but the lows are really low. Overall I have a lot of issues with it and some of those are thematic issues.

I don't know that I liked this direction for this version of Trek. It seems so clear to me that, this is a show that was envisioned to be one thing and it wasn't working so it was retooled to be something else and something to fit the times. Both in the sense of post 9/11 and a serial world where shows like 24 were exploding.

I understand why people latched on to it. Enterprise was definitely meandering in season 2. The show was losing appeal. And to make it something completely different and dark like this was probably super fresh to the audience watching at that point.

But to me a lot of it feels like try harding to make something dark. But its still not being done in a correct way imo. Like BSG was dark. And they embraced the darkness. Trek wants to be dark here but still be trek in that old school way of being Trek. And the two don't mesh. Often these episodes just don't mesh to me from one to another tonally or even within the same episode. I think the new show, Discovery, does this pretty well because its relinquished that version of old school trek.It was never meant to be old school. But enterprise was and so it just feels schizophrenic.

I just got through watching this episode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_(Star_Trek:_Enterprise)

It's probably the best episode of this season so far. It has the enterprise crew do something horrible. Which is very powerful and brave in its way from a writing perspective because its not something you've ever seen a trek crew do. But because it still has that old school trek thing going on, it wants you to still view them as the heroes. Because ultimately they are doing the "greater good". It's not handled elegantly. The only person who challenges the captain is Tpol who apparently has been free-basing trellium to feel more human all of a sudden. It's the type of episode that BSG (Or Babylon 5) handled effortlessly but this show struggles on imo.

There is a lot of that this season. It's very clumsy in its attempts to be dark because it can't go full on. It's still that old Trek and its simply not a part of its DNA to be that morally grey. It wants to have its foot in both world without really sacrificing anything to get it. And ultimately that's unsatisfying in significant ways to me. If you want to do this kind of episode it has to have a cost. And not just the soul of Archer or the crew. That is a given. There has to be a tangible cost like someone dying on either side to drive it home. This show just can't go that far. So I kinda feel like if you can't go that far. Why even start to take the trip. Haven't finished the season of course so maybe that happens later....although I doubt it.
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chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #990 on: November 10, 2017, 09:25:32 PM »

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #991 on: November 11, 2017, 02:51:14 AM »
Enterprise related so I'll spoiler it out for chrono

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pretty deep into Season 3. Just finished episode 19.

So the thing is I'm very mixed on season 3. I think the highs are high but the lows are really low. Overall I have a lot of issues with it and some of those are thematic issues.

I don't know that I liked this direction for this version of Trek. It seems so clear to me that, this is a show that was envisioned to be one thing and it wasn't working so it was retooled to be something else and something to fit the times. Both in the sense of post 9/11 and a serial world where shows like 24 were exploding.

I understand why people latched on to it. Enterprise was definitely meandering in season 2. The show was losing appeal. And to make it something completely different and dark like this was probably super fresh to the audience watching at that point.

But to me a lot of it feels like try harding to make something dark. But its still not being done in a correct way imo. Like BSG was dark. And they embraced the darkness. Trek wants to be dark here but still be trek in that old school way of being Trek. And the two don't mesh. Often these episodes just don't mesh to me from one to another tonally or even within the same episode. I think the new show, Discovery, does this pretty well because its relinquished that version of old school trek.It was never meant to be old school. But enterprise was and so it just feels schizophrenic.

I just got through watching this episode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_(Star_Trek:_Enterprise)

It's probably the best episode of this season so far. It has the enterprise crew do something horrible. Which is very powerful and brave in its way from a writing perspective because its not something you've ever seen a trek crew do. But because it still has that old school trek thing going on, it wants you to still view them as the heroes. Because ultimately they are doing the "greater good". It's not handled elegantly. The only person who challenges the captain is Tpol who apparently has been free-basing trellium to feel more human all of a sudden. It's the type of episode that BSG (Or Babylon 5) handled effortlessly but this show struggles on imo.

There is a lot of that this season. It's very clumsy in its attempts to be dark because it can't go full on. It's still that old Trek and its simply not a part of its DNA to be that morally grey. It wants to have its foot in both world without really sacrificing anything to get it. And ultimately that's unsatisfying in significant ways to me. If you want to do this kind of episode it has to have a cost. And not just the soul of Archer or the crew. That is a given. There has to be a tangible cost like someone dying on either side to drive it home. This show just can't go that far. So I kinda feel like if you can't go that far. Why even start to take the trip. Haven't finished the season of course so maybe that happens later....although I doubt it.
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The show wasn't ready to go there thematically yet. Season three is a funny bird because it's serialized and introduces so much yet it's also when Berman and Braga were checking out of the series as both were starting to look at other projects to move onto, but also wanted to do all this 9/11-War stuff that the season is sucking hard on. Manny Coto had just jumped on and was starting to take the show over. They also had the episode order and budget cut after the season opened with poor ratings (that only got worse) which is why they start dropping out all the "we're on this mission, but there's also stuff along the way we'll see" aspects of the EXPANSE for what's a pretty dumb mcguffin plot in the first place.

The episode you mention is a good one, I also like all the Degra stuff, maybe because of the actor. But the show never really does get away from what we talked about earlier regarding how they'll take a few steps in a direction and then suddenly run away from it. They even sorta treat the addition of the MACOs as Voyager treated its Maquis and Equinox crew. Relevant for a little bit, then abandoned as plot points and integrated as normal background characters/redshirts.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The episode where they're trying to con Degra, I wish they kept up the ruse on us longer and then we start wondering why Archer is acting weird, aligning us more with Degra, before revealing it's a simulation on the Enterprise and the whole plan to get stuff from him. That they made it all the way to the end of the first act before showing us their hand is decent for VOY/ENT era Trek but if they had pushed it just a bit longer and had the malfunctions and stuff without us, the audience, knowing what was going on, only the Archer character, it would have been a really great episode.

Regarding "Damages", apparently they also scripted a line for Phlox referencing his argument with Archer about ethics all the way back in the first season. But the line was cut. Which makes sense, as they probably forgot that they changed the original ending for "Dear Doctor" where Phlox would have disobeyed Archer in the end, since Paramount wanted it changed because everyone was supposed to follow the Captains orders. So T'Pol was the only one left in the episode to even question him.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #992 on: November 12, 2017, 03:50:03 PM »
Finished up Season 3 of enterprise. I'm gonna take a break before I start Season 4. I inhaled a lot of enterprise in a short of amount of time so I'll give the final season some resting room. 

Pretty much all I said before still stands. There is a lot to like and a lot to dislike about Season 3. It starts off kind of as a mess but has a strong finishing end stretch. I mean you gain some benefits like the stakes being raised and more drama and urgency being added but I think you also lose a lot that makes Trek Trek. There is also a part of me that wonders if they would have picked Scott Bakula as captain if they knew where they were going to go with this show. Which is not to say that he does a bad job at all. It's just Bakula strengths are friendship and optimism.

On one hand its fun to see them throw him into hell to see how he would respond. But I bet they originally picked him because they had a very different vision of the show.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #993 on: November 13, 2017, 02:02:40 PM »
Good mid-season finale episode. First episode they actually gave some character to the security chief to flesh him out. I hadn't care for him up to this point because he just seemed too perfect with no depth.

Some thoughts 9 episodes in.

The look of this show is just amazing to me. This comes after watching a shit-load of enterprise in the last month and the orville. I don't say this to shit on those two shows because both of those shows use traditional TV style camera-work and cinematography. But Discovery just makes them look amateurish and old. The way the camera moves. The way they set up shots. It looks like a film. It often looks better than stuff that was in the last 3 star trek films. Not always. But sometimes. That's hella impressive for a TV show.

I think the tone is super dead on. It feels like a new breed of Trek. It feels modern. It feels progressive. It feels like its of its current age. It doesn't just feel like homage to old trek even though there is plenty of connections to the trek of the past.

As far as plotting I think its just been average. I would have liked some more twists or some more tricky stuff happening. I don't know that there has been a truly great episode yet. There have been plenty of good episodes. And for a first season of a Trek show, its been especially competent in that regard compared to the other shows. Hopefully it keeps growing like trek shows tend to do and really finds itself. I will say the serial nature of the show has worked and it hasn't been as narrow as I feared a serial Trek show would be.

I hope they continue to explore the crew and give other members time to shine. Lorca and Burnham, and Stamets are the core 3 characters so far and all of them are good but I want them to give more time for lesser members to shine also. I want to get to know the bridge crew for example outside of battle scenes.




Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #994 on: November 14, 2017, 01:42:07 AM »
I REALLY like Discovery!

The visuals in the episode when they go down to the planet was easily the most beautiful Star Trek has ever looked to me. I adore the characters. I wish there were more on the doc, but I think we'll get it later. I really love the tone. It feels legitimate Trek but with more modern sensibilities without going overboard about it. I am also enjoying the fact the series is self contained and yet still has an episodic serial-based structure. I disagree with Stony about the plotting and find it just about right for my tastes. I am really impressed and can't wait for more!
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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #995 on: November 14, 2017, 03:32:53 AM »
The visuals in this episode really reminded me of Mass Effect 2. The show seems clearly inspired by that title.
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desert punk

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Re: star trek
« Reply #996 on: November 14, 2017, 07:20:59 AM »
I'm only at episode 6 for now but Discovery is indeed a great show.

When I grew up the only time I was allowed to watch tv was for an hour or two in the early evenings. And the only Trek show that aired during that timeframe back then was Voyager. I didn't think it was a particularly good show even back as a kid tho I still watched it. But I think it was partly responsible for why I never really got into the other Trek shows later on.

When I got a bit older though, I really became enamored with the TOS movies. I re-watched all of them (except the first one) countless times (yeah, even the fifth one). I still do when I catch them on tv. That was Star Trek for me and even though I tried watching the other shows they never hooked me. But it ain’t Yoyager’s fault alone. The (perceived) lack of an overarching storyline just didn’t do it for me I guess. Babylon 5 fulfilled my needs for a serialized sci-fi show anyway.

But now I got exactly what I wanted from a Trek show. The overarching narrative with the war between the Federation and the Klingons is some epic and thrilling stuff (don’t really care that much whether it fits into the canon or not) without it being just a blunt spectacle, and they still find the time to properly exploring the characters. The actress playing Michael Burnham really impresses me but the others are fine too.

I’m not really a fan of the Klingon redesign tho. Don’t think the prosthetics allow for a wide range of emotions and expressions. And that they talk in actual Klingon constantly is really enervating. But other than that nothing really bothers me.

The show makes me want to try out DS9 for real. The parallels to Babylon 5 always interested me but I really don’t have the time to watch the whole show, so maybe I’ll look up some episode guide or something.

Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #997 on: November 14, 2017, 09:42:07 AM »
Watch DS9. It has overarching storylines and is serialized. And fuck episode guides. Those things are stupid and suggest things like "just skip to season 3" while ignoring entire seasons worth of character development.
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desert punk

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Re: star trek
« Reply #998 on: November 14, 2017, 05:20:03 PM »
Yeah I'm not in favor of skipping entire seasons. Then you might as well ditch the show, especially if it's as serialized as you say it is. I just don't wanna waste my time with really bad or flat out boring episodes. So I was just wondering if there's guide listing those kinds of episodes so I can avoid them.

naff

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Re: star trek
« Reply #999 on: November 14, 2017, 05:56:29 PM »
Good mid-season finale episode. First episode they actually gave some character to the security chief to flesh him out. I hadn't care for him up to this point because he just seemed too perfect with no depth.

I figured that was the point up until now, to seem too perfect/plain, to be intentionally unsettling and mysterious esp considering the Klingon capture. Burnum and Tilly talked about it a couple of times.

Discovery rules. Was keen to watch The Orville, but the number of idiots I've seen bitching about Discovery referncing how it's for sjws, then talking about how great The Orville is, isn't particularly selling me  ::)
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Himu

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1000 on: November 14, 2017, 06:38:49 PM »
Honestly Disco haters just seem desperate at this point :idont It's like they want to hate Discovery.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 07:03:21 PM by Cindi Mayweather »
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Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1001 on: November 14, 2017, 07:48:46 PM »
Discovery rules. Was keen to watch The Orville, but the number of idiots I've seen bitching about Discovery referncing how it's for Social Studies Warriors, then talking about how great The Orville is, isn't particularly selling me  ::)

I like both shows. I think Discovery is better than Orville but Orville is not remotely as bad as the critical reviews were. But yeah I have noticed a weird vibe from a segment of that community that uses some of the same code words as alt-right types to try to prop up that show and diss discovery. I have a feeling it comes from the fact that the lead character on discovery is a black women which probably triggers a certain type of nerd.

The show fortunately doesn't echo those sentiments. It's progressive in many ways like Discovery. The worf clone is married to another dude for example. (Although technically that race doesn't have females)

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1002 on: November 14, 2017, 07:53:58 PM »
Yeah I'm not in favor of skipping entire seasons. Then you might as well ditch the show, especially if it's as serialized as you say it is. I just don't wanna waste my time with really bad or flat out boring episodes. So I was just wondering if there's guide listing those kinds of episodes so I can avoid them.

Don't feel bad about using a guide. I still think a good guide should have you watching the bulk of episodes during a show run but for time reasons there is no reason to watch what many people consider to be the worst of something.

That being said, I often find myself being a bit of a contrarion and liking some of the episodes that the community widely derides.

HardcoreRetro

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1003 on: November 15, 2017, 09:26:48 AM »
I'm enjoying the original show instead. The outdated stuff people like getting upset about is basically the most charming thing to me.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1004 on: November 15, 2017, 08:07:01 PM »
Shatner's acting was some of the best stuff when I rewatched it last year or so, with Spock deliberately emotionless it sometimes seems like he's the only person who gives a shit about the stuff happening. Also you can use the budget cuts to create a fun meta-narrative that he's becoming increasingly unhinged from the fact that his ship keeps losing crew members and entire sections of it disappear and that all the planets look the same yet nobody on his Crew let alone anyone in Starfleet seems interested.

You can expand that into a fun little franchise meta narrative explaining all the insane Admirals are the result of them taking the insane captains and kicking them upstairs like they do Janeway when she comes back from terrorizing the Delta Quadrant.

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1005 on: November 15, 2017, 10:51:21 PM »
I think I'm in the mood to watch some of the trek movies. Most of them I haven't seen in forever although I watched the first one again like maybe a year ago. I'm one of those types who thinks the original motion picture is quite slow and boring therefore quite good. It feels unlike any other trek movie ever. Almost intellectual in a way the rest of the movies aren't. That's not a diss at the other movies. Just an observation.

 


chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1006 on: November 16, 2017, 12:43:54 AM »
Just, you know, do yourself a favor: skip NEMESIS.

TNG early spoilers just in case some of you are bitches.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well, didn't expect a major death so early on. Especially given some flashbacks show here and there.

R.I.P. Tasha Yar.
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That actress has recanted her grievances about TNG, and is happy about that time in her life now. She wanted to say something more than just "Hailing frequencies open," week after week. She had a fantastic character, and I wish we'd seen what a season three or four arc for her would have entailed.

:teehee

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1007 on: November 16, 2017, 12:44:27 AM »
Shatner's acting was some of the best stuff when I rewatched it last year or so, with Spock deliberately emotionless it sometimes seems like he's the only person who gives a shit about the stuff happening. Also you can use the budget cuts to create a fun meta-narrative that he's becoming increasingly unhinged from the fact that his ship keeps losing crew members and entire sections of it disappear and that all the planets look the same yet nobody on his Crew let alone anyone in Starfleet seems interested.

You can expand that into a fun little franchise meta narrative explaining all the insane Admirals are the result of them taking the insane captains and kicking them upstairs like they do Janeway when she comes back from terrorizing the Delta Quadrant.
I like your version of TOS universe. I'd happily read a benjiscreed if you put one together on the topic.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1008 on: November 16, 2017, 01:50:14 AM »
Nemesis is way better than the garbage that is Generations or even The Final Frontier or the remake of Nemesis, Star Trek (2009).

The opening is killer, and so is the space battle. The main problem is that it only has half a plot, and then they keep trying to do subplots and have Picard drive vehicles for some reason. Or have two main characters engage in the worlds worst fisticuffs over a randomly placed bottomless pit. Whatever, just watch the opener and the space battle on YouTubes.

I always liked the sound effects for the shields in that movie. Temporary disruptions where the fire hits.

The funny thing is Stuart Baird came into Nemesis on the upswing of his career into finally directing after being the editor on a bunch of huge blockbusters and with the patronage of Richard Donner, took the job even though he knew nothing about Star Trek or science fiction and it basically killed off his attempt to move beyond editing. While John Logan, was a huge Trek fan who came into writing it off of his prior luck with Gladiator and Any Given Sunday, and has since racked up a whole bunch of written by and screenplay credits on big things in part because of his patronage from Sam Mendes.

Ten years later they both wound up on Skyfall, Logan writing it and Baird editing it (after rebuilding his career with hits like Salt and Green Lantern). Logan also created Penny Dreadful and has since wrote Spectre, Alien: Covenant.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1009 on: November 16, 2017, 01:53:38 AM »
They cut like an entire hour out of Nemesis, including plot lines that are referenced in the final cut but were never shown. :lol

Quote
Stuart Baird was brought in to film Nemesis by executive producer Rick Berman.  ... He wanted to add energy to the action scenes and added some set pieces, such as the car chase. He called that scene a "signature piece" for the film which turns dark after the crew is put in danger by the inhabitants of the planet. ... Despite Frakes' being on the cast, and having directed the previous two Star Trek films, Baird decided not to seek his opinion on the direction of the film.
Quote
Actors LeVar Burton (Geordi La Forge) and Marina Sirtis (Deanna Troi) have spoken unflatteringly of director Stuart Baird, criticizing him for not watching any of the episodes of The Next Generation.[24] Sirtis has bluntly called Baird "an idiot."[25] Jonathan Frakes, while praising both the character of Shinzon and actor Tom Hardy (who played the role), said that if he himself had directed, as he had done with the previous two Trek films, he would have made the film less villain-centric and given more screen time to the regular Next Generation cast.

Quote
During production of Nemesis, a script developed by John Logan and Brent Spiner was in the works for a fifth and final film featuring the TNG cast that would have wrapped up the adventures of the Enterprise-E crew, with tie-ins to historical aspects of the Star Trek franchise. However, the poor performance of Nemesis at the box office convinced Paramount that the franchise was suffering from 'franchise fatigue', and the script was abandoned.
ugh that would have been even worse probably, Data and B4 were the worst parts of Nemesis, especially because they're the reason Picard is driving all that crap.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1010 on: November 16, 2017, 02:22:04 AM »
You know more about this than I do.

But it's still a shitty, horrible movie.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1011 on: November 16, 2017, 02:38:33 AM »
It's far from the worst of the Trek films to sit through though. It's just generally blech. Generations, Into Darkness, Star Trek 09 and The Final Frontier are all easily as bad if not worse. All of those compete in their single minded desire to sap your entire will to live. Especially the first three as they drag on endlessly as if they'll never take pity on you and just end. Generations is so cruel it makes you relive the terrible events after an even greater pace killing incoherent stop and chat that lasts half an hour.

chronovore

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1012 on: November 16, 2017, 03:03:05 AM »
Yeah, that's fair.

You kept referring to "The Final Frontier" repeatedly, and I thought, I have no idea which film that is… and when I googled it just now, I was like Oh, Trek V… Yeah, we don't want to talk about that one! :lol It's horribad. And, yeah, Generations is schlocky and lame, and wayyyyy to ego-stroking about the two captains, and emo-feely. No, thanks.

To tell the truth, just for the damage it does via retcon, I think I dislike FIRST CONTACT more than any other film. It's the goddamned BORG, the scariest villain Star Trek has EVER PRODUCED, and it turns it into a queen-bee-driven-collective rather than the unfathomable hive mind it had been in the series. And the queen wants a boyfriend.

In short, only ever watch II: Wrath of Khan, IV: The Voyage Home, and VI: The Undiscovered Country.

benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1013 on: November 16, 2017, 08:59:37 PM »
heh Phlox was on Lucifer this week, i like when he pops up on shows

nachobro

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1014 on: November 16, 2017, 09:06:29 PM »
Data and B4 shit was the worst.  :yuck I wasn't a huge fan of the Borg Queen in First Contact but I actually liked the Janeway vs Queen dynamic in Voyager.

Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1015 on: November 16, 2017, 10:02:40 PM »
Nemesis isn't the star cancer to me that it is to so many. Out of all the garbage films, I dont know why it specifically pisses people off.


EDIT: Posting from bed  :picard
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:20:38 PM by Momo »

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1016 on: November 16, 2017, 10:36:15 PM »
I remember not hating nemesis as much as everybody. Not that it was good or anything but I remember when I left the theater, I was the only one not insanely pissed off at it in my group.

Outside of the infamous dune buggy chase, I don't legit remember any of it. Oh wait that's the shinzon one...

I have a feeling if I watched it now I would hate it just as passionately as most. Also it came at a time when the franchise in general just felt out of step and it was one of the deathblows.

The worst Trek movie for me that I can remember is Generations. I detest that one.

I also do not have a lot of nice things to say about that 2009 reboot movie. It always surprised me that people really liked that one. It's not a bad movie or anything. Just really average to me so I was surprised that it was so successful.

That being said, I'm the only Star Trek fan I know that likes Frontier so yeah my opinions on these things aren't really in step.


Momo

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1017 on: November 16, 2017, 11:22:14 PM »
I probably genuinely like (as in i'd rewatch it) at most 4 Star Trek films, shit's just whack on the whole. I'd rather watch Surf Ninja than some of that shit lol

Stoney Mason

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1018 on: November 17, 2017, 12:18:53 AM »
I like all five tos movies to varying degrees and probably first contact so there is enough there for me to have a good time. 


benjipwns

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Re: star trek
« Reply #1019 on: November 17, 2017, 01:02:37 AM »
Generations has long been my most detested of them all, it doesn't even a good premise of any kind. The entire thing is a giant nonsensical plot hole, even more both 09 and ID's plots which could be tweaked and fixed. There's no fixing GEN unless you decide that everything that happens after it is Picard still in The Nexus. The funniest part is that on the DVD commentary, Braga and Moore admit that they couldn't find an answer for why Picard couldn't go to literally any point and stop Malcom McDowell, he didn't need Kirk at all, let alone to go back and face a possible losing scenario. But they believed the rest of the garbage made up for it and compared it to The Terminator's plot hole. And were especially excited about crashing the D.

Nemesis completely fakes you out because it's got the best opening of the films:


And right after this intro it goes to the Riker Wedding and then to the dune buggy scenes. While Janeway exposition explains what exactly happened in the intro and why we should care.

Tom Hardy has some minor decent scenes with Patrick Stewart at the one point, I think they have dinner or something, and Shinzon basically explains why he's such a dick and Picard is like okay this is obviously a trap because otherwise we won't have a movie so I'll be going then.

Luckily you can totally zone out until they get to the battle, enjoy that and then totally zone out again as if this had just been a high budget episode:
spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Until watching this I forgot that Shinzon and Picard have that second conversation and Shinzon's like "you're completely right and there's really no down side to me just taking over this Empire BUT THE SCRIPT SAYS FUCK YOU DAD ALSO I'M DYING BUT ALSO FUCK YOU AGAIN DAD, ER CLONE, ER WEAK ME"

Even in glorious 480p YouTube I'm loving those shield hits. :lawd And I still like that firing in a circle to locate them and the fact that they actually try and turn the ship's weakside away. Even after II pointed it out directly as a failure of Khan's tactics, Trek still spent the rest of its history having everyone lining up the same way and fighting on a 2D plane for the most part.

I like how the Diana psychic connection to Ron Pearlman is basically cut out of the film, but then that's the whole hook they use for this stupid scene where she locates them through the cloak.

Speaking of Diana, I like the short lingering shot after Picard orders the Diana Maneuver of the two ships wedged together. A better film would have sat on that for a bit longer instead of jumping back to Riker fisticuffs in a jeffries tube. They do a longer lingering version of the shot after Shinzon rips the two of them apart and with it what's left of the movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7G8cEgiupg
Quote from: YouTube Comments on that part
"Damage report."
"Disruptors are down, and the cloaking device is lodged in the Enterprise's hull."
"What about the extremely delicate superweapon?"
"...Surprisingly, still operational, sir."
"Excellent.  Activate it while I double over in the horrible pain that defines my existence."
"Yes, sir.  Initiating Edgelord Array firing sequence."

Also, I love how many Trek battles have a moment where the person in command says "let's do an obvious trap" and someone else goes "WHAT?!?" and then the enemy ship falls for it. Hell, it's even in a bunch of TNG episodes. :lol

VI as a part of its determination to be the best film subverts it by Kirk ordering a physical backing off just for confusion, Christopher Plummer going "what?!?" and Kirk going "why did they stop?" then Plummer immediate fires at them again and blows a hole through the ship. VI :rejoice

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I love how the front of the bridge is blown off (because the Federation puts their bridges right up on top of the saucers except in the Defiant) and Picard just sorta looks at that dude getting sucked out and goes "medical teams to the bridge" like that wasn't a totally crazy thing that shouldn't happen so easily to ships that travel at above light speeds constantly and just fought a major scale war for three plus years.
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