US Politics Thread |OT| THE DARKEST TIMELINE

[Himu]

Only problem I've got is creating laws through "morality" or very, very subjective opinions like "people who kill others forfeit their humanity". Can you imagine a government actually espousing that view?

Naw, I just don't think a fetus that is in utero is actually a human until x amount of months. I completely disagree with the conception argument, and have not seen any science suggesting it to be true. You won't ever see me support abortion past a specific period of time unless it's shown to harm the mother or the mother was raped. But even then I'm pro-choice, but it's not up to me to rule my views over others. Plus, how could I ever have such an opinion? I can't even give birth ().

Also, you should take notice that pro-choice does not necessarily mean pro-abortion.

[Himu]

Ah, the naive Conservative/Libertarian viewpoint that laws are laws, especially in regards to managing human life,  and can never be abused or go wrong while at the same time propagating a want for LESS government rears its head again!

I remember talking about weed among some conservatives at a Final Fantasy fansite once. "There's no reason to smoke it! Laws are laws! It's against the law!" as if there exists some realm where all laws are just. I'm thoroughly convinced you were a part of that group, Jay. Did you ever post on SquarePedia? That forum for SG rejects? A lot of your debates come off as SQP argumentation 101.

[Himu]

Man, you'd fit in so well at SQP.

[CatsCatsCats]

Hey man, abortion isn't murder, it's eviction. Not my fault the little fucker couldn't pull up his bootstraps and develop lungs.

Very striking to me how JD can empathize with a burgeoning lump of tissue but not an adult human who killed when humans have been killing each other since existence.

[CatsCatsCats]

Sorry, your hypocrisy is too blunt. You seek to humanize the embryo and yet if a man breaks the wrong law you wish to strip him of his humanity. I'd rather be a Neanderthal than have no ability empathize with my fellow man.

[Himu]

Don't fight with conservative gamers or nerds. Won't end well. Never does.

[Steve Contra]

Can we get back on topic?  I swear to god you guys can't you just ignore libertarians LIKE EVERYONE HAS BEEN FOR EVER AND EVER

[CatsCatsCats]

Murderers don't turn into cats

[Himu]

Can we get back on topic?  I swear to god you guys can't you just ignore libertarians LIKE EVERYONE HAS BEEN FOR EVER AND EVER

(Image removed from quote.)

someone needs to bring back squigglevision

[Steve Contra]

Squigglevision was the worst.

[Himu]

holy fuck, contra. fuck you, i'm marathoning Home Movies tonight it seems. You jerk.

[Steve Contra]

Squigglevision was only the first season of Home Movies

[Himu]

IT STILL INSTANTLY REMINDS ME OF IT DAMMIT

[Kara]

You cannot break all the chains, except one. You cannot say you want to be free of exploitation and oppression, except you want to keep the oppression of women by men. You can’t say you want to liberate humanity yet keep one half of the people enslaved to the other half.

agree unironically

[Mandark]

No, I will simply tell you the scientific fact that an organism's lifespan begins at conception, which has always been the case and won't be changing.

Over and over again you people reinforce the notion that the only reason you support what you do is due to your own ignorance, be it willful or a function of stupidity.

This is actually not a scientific fact, it is a way humans have chosen to conceptualize a set of observations.  Further, it's a concept carries no inherent moral weight.

[Joe Molotov]

You cannot break all the chains, except one. You cannot say you want to be free of exploitation and oppression, except you want to keep the oppression of women by men. You can’t say you want to liberate humanity yet keep one half of the people enslaved to the other half.

agree unironically

What about sexy chains, tho?

[Great Rumbler]

What about the chains of love?

[Shadow Mod]

This now includes present company.

 

[Steve Contra]

What about the chains of love?

The gays were right all along

[Kara]

You cannot break all the chains, except one. You cannot say you want to be free of exploitation and oppression, except you want to keep the oppression of women by men. You can’t say you want to liberate humanity yet keep one half of the people enslaved to the other half.

agree unironically

What about sexy chains, tho?

What kind of animal would break a Campagnolo Record 11 speed chain? Disgusting.

[TakingBackSunday]

since when was it a scientific fact that life begins at conception

Like I think I would have heard that after years and years of science classes

[Himu]

Are eggs actual chickens now too?

[benjipwns]

did we ever decide this? we arrest the doctor and the woman right? and we investigate the father too? obviously everyone who helped order and prepare the hit on the kid

and the roads they traveled on...put there by the state!

follow the money

[Shadow Mod]

since when was it a scientific fact that life begins at conception

Like I think I would have heard that after years and years of science classes

The irony of choosing this point in time is what I was getting at earlier. A lot of conception happens but shit tons of failure to implant does too. Do embryos that fail to implant go to limbo also?

[Himu]

did we ever decide this? we arrest the doctor and the woman right? and we investigate the father too? obviously everyone who helped order and prepare the hit on the kid

and the roads they traveled on...put there by the state!

follow the money

[Mandark]

This is actually not a scientific fact, it is a way humans have chosen to conceptualize a set of observations.

Wrong.  Scientific terminology is objective, not subjective.  It is based on evidence and observation, not speculation or opinion.

As short as I keep my posts, you could at least read the whole thing if you're gonna respond.  I don't have time to Strunk'n'White them down any further.

[Mandark]

Again

"[c]haracteristics that define an individual living organism" are characteristics chosen by humans to create a definition.

A biological definition does not mean anything in and of itself in terms of morality.

[CatsCatsCats]

JD do you have children?

[Madrun Badrun]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/12/opinion/when-innocence-is-no-defense.html?emc=edit_th_20150812&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=59924205

[CatsCatsCats]

A definition isn't a fact, it's an accepted pointer to a concept. How thick is u? Our definition of life is somewhat arbitrary and isn't even concretely agreed upon in the scientific community. 

[TakingBackSunday]

JD do you have children?

who would procreate with him

[Great Rumbler]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/12/opinion/when-innocence-is-no-defense.html?emc=edit_th_20150812&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=59924205

This is as equally troubling to me as the conservative notion that if you are killed during the commission of a crime, no matter how petty, then you're just getting what you deserved and nobody should feel any sympathy towards you.

[Himu]

I love how JD calls us barbarians and neanderthals and stuff, when he's totally pro-death penalty, and if this were any other point in history, would probably be one of the many people completely glad to bring popcorn to a beheading under the pretense that they deserved it.

[Brehvolution]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-defends-planned-parenthood-responds-to-gop-critics-on-hannity/

Hannity threw a few softballs at Trump, but also pressed him a little on specific policy proposals for Obamacare, the economy, and even Planned Parenthood.

And Trump kind of surprised Hannity by defending them, saying that abortion is only a “fairly small part of what they do” and overall they do a great service for women, so “we have to look at the positive also for Planned Parenthood.”

He also hit back against his conservative critics and pointed out that Ronald Reagan used to be a Democrat and wasn’t even as conservative as people remember him as.

[Himu]

He also hit back against his conservative critics and pointed out that Ronald Reagan used to be a Democrat and wasn’t even as conservative as people remember him as.

[/quote]

Tell that to the state of California.  Or Black Americans in general.

[Great Rumbler]

Stick a fork in that asshole.  He can vent his hot air all he wants, but after that garbage, he's done.

Wish in one hand and crap in the other, see which piles up quicker.

[benjipwns]

we gotta investigate any "miscarriages" too right? especially if they happen at home with few authoritative witnesses and they hold a little funeral instead of reporting the negligent manslaughter to the police

maybe there could be some kind of system where as soon as conception happens the baby's temporary housing is locked away for safety in a big building until the baby can exit safely

it'd have to be guarded for their safety, and only one mother to a suite, can't allow harmful things in their suite such as other mothers, and they're locked in at night so nothing goes afoul

i'd imagine the LIEBERALS would want this place run by the state instead of some free market entrepreneurs

[Mandark]

Is there testable, falsifiable evidence of the definition of life/organisms/species/etc, published as papers in peer-reviewed journals?

Would love to read about it.  Hopefully it's a publicly available pdf, but pretty sure I still have a way in to jstor if it's not.

[Himu]

Does a forensic medical exam / criminal investigation accompany every death of a born human?  No?  Oh, okay then.

That was a nice point you tried to have.  Unfortunately, it was never going to make it.  Don't blame yourself, I'm sure you did your best, but these things happen.

For now on I'm replying to all of your posts with a gif.

[Brehvolution]

Does a forensic medical exam / criminal investigation accompany every death of a born human?  No?  Oh, okay then.

That was a nice point you tried to have.  Unfortunately, it was never going to make it.  Don't blame yourself, I'm sure you did your best, but these things happen.

(Image removed from quote.)

Mucus abortion. All those clumps of live cells aggressively murdered.  Why don't people think of the boogers?

[benjipwns]

Does a forensic medical exam / criminal investigation accompany every death of a born human?  No?  Oh, okay then.

But this isn't just death, this is potentially murder. They definitely should be investigated considering any of these so-called "miscarriages" could actually be the parents performing an abortion themselves or hiring contract killers.

The investigations could uncover entire rings of contract killers to bring down.

[benjipwns]

A woman was pregnant, now she's not. But there's no baby. She didn't report her "miscarriage" or "stillborn" to the proper authorities who confirmed it was not a murder. Clearly foul play is at hand. The question now is only how many others were involved and the first step is investigating the would be mother considering she was present at the crime.

[Himu]

Benji is always serious. I'm not sure how you gleaned he was joking from his post, JD. Benji isn't exactly known for being a sarcastic poster. He's the forum straight man.

[Steve Contra]

We have straight men here now?  Gross.

[Himu]

We have straight men here now?  Gross.

Agreed. I don't think we are doing our best efforts to spread The Agenda on this site, and quality is going down the drain as a result.

[benjipwns]

We have straight men here now?  Gross.

Did you miss the Supreme Court ruling?

[Himu]

We have straight men here now?  Gross.

Did you miss the Supreme Court ruling?

How does it feel to be forced to marry a man against your will, Benji? What can you tell us about the straight male persecution in Obama's America?

[benjipwns]

It's really only the marriage part I have a problem with.

[Himu]

It's really only the marriage part I have a problem with.

It makes sense, I don't blame you. The government forcing you to do this is genocide. How will humans be able to reproduce if they force people to marry the same gender? It's even worse than abortion and our government is completely complicit. Ronald Reagan is rolling in his grave. Humanity will be wiped out in a generation.

[Shadow Mod]

Involuntary manslaughter/negligent homicide is what you're looking for benji.

[benjipwns]

It makes sense, I don't blame you. The government forcing you to do this is genocide. How will humans be able to reproduce if they force people to marry the same gender? It's even worse than abortion and our government is completely complicit. Ronald Reagan is rolling in his grave. Humanity will be wiped out in a generation.

I mean just the marriage part, I don't really care about genders or numbers.

[Shadow Mod]

since when was it a scientific fact that life begins at conception

Like I think I would have heard that after years and years of science classes

I mean, he's not wrong. After conception it's a living organism that undergoes cellular mitosis.

The distinction I make is whether or not it's sentient life. I only support an abortion ban (with exceptions) at such time as the fetus becomes sentient. Which is probably around 6 months, which matches up with the laws most states have on the books. And nearly all abortions happen well before the 6 month mark.

The ones that happen after 6 months, usually something has gone horribly wrong. Most pregnant women don't decide to get a late term abortion/third trimester abortion "just cause."

since when was it a scientific fact that life begins at conception

Like I think I would have heard that after years and years of science classes

I mean, he's not wrong. After conception it's a living organism that undergoes cellular mitosis.

The distinction I make is whether or not it's sentient life. I only support an abortion ban (with exceptions) at such time as the fetus becomes sentient. Which is probably around 6 months, which matches up with the laws most states have on the books. And nearly all abortions happen well before the 6 month mark.

Your distinction still isn't specific enough. Do you eat meat?

[benjipwns]

Which is probably around 6 months, which matches up with the laws most states have on the books. And nearly all abortions happen well before the 6 month mark.

This reminds me of some stuff I read a month or so back in some policy book, most of Europe is more restrictive than the "average" U.S. state because of federal rulings.

One article I grabbed from a quick google search: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/

In Germany, women seeking first-trimester abortions are subject to a mandatory three-day waiting period and a counseling session. Abortions after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy are forbidden except in cases of grave threat to the mother's physical or mental health. The Netherlands mandates a five-day waiting period between initial consultation and abortion; clinics must provide women with information about abortion alternatives. Abortion is then legal until viability (legally defined as 24 weeks, usually interpreted as 22 weeks). In Belgium, where abortion was illegal until 1990, there's a six-day waiting period and the woman must claim to be in "a state of distress" before receiving a first-trimester abortion.

Many Western European countries have what might seem like odd requirements and exceptions to their abortion laws.

In Finland (home of the now-famous Finnish baby boxes and other enviable government benefits), abortion is available up to 12 weeks of pregnancy, unless the woman is under 17 years old, in which case she may have an abortion until she's 20 weeks pregnant. But even for early abortions, women must provide a "social reason" for seeking to terminate her pregnancy, such as poverty, extreme distress, or already having at least four children. While in practice most abortion requests are granted, it still forces women to prove to an authority the validity of their desire not to have a baby. In Denmark, abortion is available on demand up to 12 weeks of pregnancy. Afterward, exceptions are made for cases of rape, threats to the woman's physical or mental health, risk of fetal defects, and -- revealingly -- in cases where the woman can demonstrate lack of financial resources to care for a child.

Israel (though not part of Europe, obviously) has similarly idiosyncratic requirements and restrictions. Though 93 percent of American Jews support abortion rights in all or most cases, and the Torah has little to say about abortion, the Jewish state of Israel has fairly heavy-handed abortion laws. Abortion is illegal for married women between ages 17 and 40, except in cases of rape, incest, fetal malformation, or risk to the mother's physical or mental health. Women eligible for abortions (the unmarried ones, that is) must submit to ultrasounds, wade through rivers of paperwork, and plead their case to an expert.

Eastern Europe, a stronghold of liberal abortion laws under Communism, has become increasingly strict of late. Russia recently passed a law restricting abortion to the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and Russian clinics are also now forced to give (medically dubious) warnings about the health risks of abortion, which supposedly include cancer and infertility. After the fall of the USSR, Poland enacted some of Europe's strictest abortion laws , banning the procedure except in cases of rape, fetal malformation, or serious threats to the woman's health. The Ukraine is currently threatening to follow suit.

Sweden
Since 1974, abortion has been legal in Sweden in all circumstances within the first 18 weeks of pregnancy. After this point, abortions are only permissible to save the life or physical health of the mother, or if approval is granted by the National Board of Health and Welfare.

Ireland
The Offenses Against the Person Act of 1861 (originally enacted by the United Kingdom but parts of which are still active in Ireland) banned abortion in all circumstances. Later court decisions established an exception to save the mother’s life. In 1983, a constitutional amendment strengthened the country’s abortion restrictions by establishing a fetus’s right to life, equating it with a woman’s right to life. The lack of access to abortion garnered attention in 1992 when a 14-year-old rape victim sought to travel to Great Britain to terminate her pregnancy. She was permitted to travel to Great Britain for this purpose only after the Irish Supreme Court ruled that requiring the girl to have the child might lead her to commit suicide. According to experts, each year more than 7,000 Irish women travel to Great Britain to receive abortions.

Have a free interactive WEB FOUR POINT OH map: http://worldabortionlaws.com/

[Kara]

When planes are grounded in the UK they have boat in women from Norn Iron to Britain to get abortions. Kinda surreal / stupid. The joys of imperialism and patriarchy.

[Phoenix Dark]

Stick a fork in that asshole.  He can vent his hot air all he wants, but after that garbage, he's done.

How many times has this been said though? Outside of voicing support for affirmative action, I doubt there's anything he could say that will sink him. I think the sinking process will be natural and out of his control (more people paying attention, other candidates doing effective ground work in states, better debate performances than him, etc).

[ToxicAdam]

Once he has to start writing down platform ideas and plans, people will tear it apart. Trump talks about "making America great again" through rebuilding the infrastructure. Experts start putting price tags on that, then comes the question "how does this get paid for?" comes and  then it all falls apart.

[Human Snorenado]

THE FUCKENING IS HAPPENING, YOU GUYS

Trump at 22% in Iowa, Walker at 9, Bush at 5

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/polltracker/cnn-orc-poll-trump-iowa

[TakingBackSunday]

Part of me is happy, but part of me is tremendously sad

[chronovore]

Part of me is happy, but part of me is tremendously sad

It definitely speaks to the rift in the country's population. It's stunning to me that Trump looks attractive to anyone.

[Phoenix Dark]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/08/12/new-rand-paul-video-basically-calls-donald-trump-a-closet-democrat/

Recently, Rand Paul called me and asked me to play golf. I easily beat him on the golf course and will even more easily beat him now, in the world in the politics.