He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]

[Great Rumbler]

I keep trying different MMOs, thinking that maybe one of them will be really good. After all, RPGs are my favorite genre by a good stretch, but...MMOs fail me each and every time. No matter how hard I try, I just can't find in MMOs the things that I enjoy so much about single-player RPGs. It's just not there.

[naff]

I've never played one for more than an hour tho I like the idea of a persistent online world I have never seen anything that looks appealing game play wise. I'm pretty interested in WC Star Citizen, but I have no idea how it will compare to a traditional mmo

[etiolate]

GTA3 has an end state, come on.  Don't be disingenuous.  Yeah, you can fuck around in it and a lot of people only do that, but the game is designed with a proper ending.  Animal Crossing also has an ending.  At some point, you will collect everything, and then it's done, there's literally nothing left to do.  Competitive games end when each match ends.  That's the start, beginning, and end.

MMOs are different.  They're endlessly appended to, and developers work with that in mind.  There's rarely a big payoff, because if they do that, people will stop playing, and that runs contrary to what a successful MMO is intended to do.  You mention the monetization is a problem, but monetization is intrinsic to the design of these games.  It's like saying there's nothing wrong with F2P models on iPhone games or w/e.  The monetization is built in, the game is designed around it, and there's no escaping that short of going "fuck it, we don't want to make as much money as we can", which is pretty unlikely.

You can finish the personal story in Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR. I have defeated the big bad dragon in GW2 and I'm still playing. The game does continue on past a traditional 'end point' with more things to do. Same as a game like GTA3 or even Skyrim. People continue on in Animal Crossing after having paid off their house debt. What these games reveal is that players create their own goals and things to do in a virtual little world and community.

Also, competitive gaming doesn't ever end. The match ending isn't really the end of those sorts of games. It's all about continual challenge and self-improvement. It's like arguing you finished Ridge Racer because you beat the first track.

Yes, MMOs continue to grow, but that's not a bad thing. They do need to make money to support this, but there are MMOs that haven't monetized in such a terrible way as to accomplish this.

Basically, there's a lot of outdated and cynical view of MMOs out there. They become a scapegoat for some people, but there are some really fine MMOs that are good games regardless of the genre they are in. Rumbler said he played Vindictus. The combat in Vindictus shits on most RPGs out there. Fights can be intense and interesting. It's silly to ignore that because you think 'UGH MMOS".

[etiolate]

What is your point besides "there is no big ending to these games."

[Damian79]

Maybe "ending" isnt the word.  "Closure" might be a better word.

[etiolate]

Ah. Well there's some closure in some of them. I want to try Secret World because the story stuff in that is pretty interesting. The genre is more episodic in nature.

[etiolate]

Don't think I agree with that. MMOs tend to get better with time. Almost any MMO is at its worst on launch. They are games that keep adding things to do and refinement of what they have to do.  Certain parts of the game can get old or tired, but the game itself grows so much that whenever you bore of one thing you move on to the next thing.

An important aspect here is why people play MMOs. Outside of the manipulative bullshit, the thing that draws people back to the games is the virtual world and community. Those things aren't subject to wearing themselves thin over time. Stories may drag, characters may drag, and features may become outdated or tired, but a world is something that always remains.

[Cerveza mas fina]

early WoW raids>just about any gaming experience you losers had in the last decade

This should be quoted again.

People really don't know what kind of experience they have missed.

Vanilla WoW and maybe TBC are such a rare and near perfect phenomena that I don't think they will ever be recreated again.

[magus]

wouldn't getting your character to max level and kill the strongest monster there is what would be considered the end state for a mmo?

i mean i tought the point of many WoW expansion was to raise the level cap

[Cerveza mas fina]

The strongest monsters are in raids.

Plus that's where you get the best gear, or used to at least. This gear is needed to progress to the next big raid.

[Human Snorenado]

Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...

[Human Snorenado]

Diablo 3 and I are just seeing different people right now. 

[Human Snorenado]

That was implied 

[etiolate]

Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...

 I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

Though just for your benefit, the difference between D3 and GW2 is that people actually love GW2.

[magus]

magoose - yes, until they append more. Which they always do.

eeeehhhh but if you are enjoying the game what's wrong with that? or you could just take your marble at home and be done with it if you start getting bored...

and besides you say it like as soon as someone reach max level they pop out new content,admitely i don't know much shit but didn't it take quite a while before catacylsm got released?

[Human Snorenado]

Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...

 I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

Though just for your benefit, the difference between D3 and GW2 is that people actually love GW2.

From my exposure to GW2 fans, they seem to be the sort of people who will uncritically embrace a game that has rabbit eared furry shitthings

I also firmly agree with the notion that mmos are not only inherently poorly designed, but would go one step further and call them barely a game

[Human Snorenado]

All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

[magus]

All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

fair enough i guess

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Great Rumbler]

I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

I've played 'em all, baby, and they ain't for me.

[chronovore]

I had a friend who dropped out of school to play more Everquest.  He thought he'd be raking in thousands of dollars a month because he once sold a character for a few hundred dollars.

He now kills bugs for a living.

That is my only experience with an MMO.

so he still plays MMOs for a living, but in the real world.  His life is like the first 10 quests in any MMO over and over again.

[Freyj]

This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.

[Don Flamenco]

I dunno, i'd rather play some MMO over lots of different games.  Like a 80 hour Dragon Quest game vs. 80 hours in MMO, both would suck shit, but I'd take the MMO.

[Great Rumbler]

This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.

And your point is...?

[Freyj]

This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.

And your point is...?

That the genre itself isn't inherently flawed, but the last 4 odd years of it have been.

You might as well say that FPS is a shit genre due to the overwhelming number of by the numbers corridor shooters that have littered the market in recent years.

The unfortunate part is that you can't really rely on indies to save the MMO genre.

[brob]

Speaking of indie mmos... Did LOVE come out already?

[etiolate]

The unsatisfying lack of closure doesn't really exist so much with P2P dying off. Without the financial investment and the brain's need to justify that payment, people can do things they want to, take breaks when they want to, and play the game to their own point of satisfaction.

It's just rather silly to say one of the genre's strengths is a major flaw. What Segata sees as 'lack of closure", I see as continued growth.

[Rufus]

Speaking of indie mmos... Did LOVE come out already?

Unless you're joking... It both came out and (predictably) failed and was shut down a while ago. Love is over.

[Yeti]

MMOs are kind of fun at the start when you're hopping through quests left and right, different players joining in and dropping out of your play experience. But then you reach a point where you hit the grind. And I hate grinding in most single player games, but in MMOs their grinds are on steroids. It becomes a long, tedious chore to make increasingly incremental amounts of progress. By this point the developer is hoping you feel that you've invested so much time and effort (and money!) into the game that you just can't bring yourself to abandon it.

[Human Snorenado]

I actually like grinding, I just hate grinding for the sake of grinding.  I also hate games that make me play with other people or let you solve problems or progress through non-violent means.  I guess I'm the Walter Sobchek of gaming.

[chronovore]

I'd expect that what they actually hope will keep players involved is the community. I mean, maybe the change in focus to single-player raids reflects a change in the target players, but the larger picture my MMO friends gave me was that guilds and raiding were essentially social activities.

[Cerveza mas fina]

This is true, also the reason why I can't ever play a game like this where I am in life. Raiding is something you have to commit to, like sports. Set times etc.

No way I would want to schedule that in.

[The Sceneman]

mmos are for losers and freaks; mobas are for people that will spend 95% of their lives without physical human contact

I'm pretty sure mobas are the root of all evil. My mums boyfriends son wont even come to the dinner table when a delicious meal has been served, as he's too busy playing League of Legends. I tried talking to him about gaming and thats the only game hes played THIS YEAR. Yeah, that shit is fucked up. Your gaming diet needs to be varied

[The Sceneman]

This is true, also the reason why I can't ever play a game like this where I am in life. Raiding is something you have to commit to, like sports. Set times etc.

No way I would want to schedule that in.

Closest thing I've done to a raid is coordinating the tricky Liars Dice achievement in Red Dead Redemption. Had to get up at 7am and take notes of 5 others' gameplay. Was great to knock the cheev out, after 5 hours trying to get it legit, but not something I'd want to do again.

[archie4208]

I was in a top Everquest guild back in the day.  It eventually turned into a job.  I never want to do that shit again, especially since I almost flunked some classes because of my addiction.

mmos are for losers and freaks; mobas are for people that will spend 95% of their lives without physical human contact

I'm pretty sure mobas are the root of all evil. My mums boyfriends son wont even come to the dinner table when a delicious meal has been served, as he's too busy playing League of Legends. I tried talking to him about gaming and thats the only game hes played THIS YEAR. Yeah, that shit is fucked up. Your gaming diet needs to be varied

At least Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides have defined beginnings and ends and don't take 5 hours to finish one game.

I can play 1-3 games of Dota a day and be perfectly content with that.

[Barry Egan]

Ultima Online was a revelation to me in Middle School.  havent been compelled to play an MMO since.

[etiolate]

I sense that MOBAs are where a lot of the terrible parts of the WoW/MMO community moved on to. There's like a whole generation of gamers that got sucked into one game and had that game define what gaming is about. These people kind of worry me for they have no real concept of what fun is about or hold no regard for fun when it comes to gaming. Their standards are defined by one or two games, and they struggle mightily with new concepts. Vidya is a status symbol for them within an equally minded set of peoples. This creates hyper-competitive conservative, libertopian types of folk who while possessive of their accomplishments are also obsessed with doing the least amount of work for the greatest reward. There are some really busted mentalities in the communities. If you tried to get them to define the difference between casual and hardcore, you quickly begin to realize that hardcore means socially unhealthy play habits.

[Fragamemnon]

I've GM'd raiding and hardcore PvP guilds (fear my people management skills!) spanning multiple games on and off over the past decade plus. What I've found-having interacted with people that are invested in MMOs and those that really don't like them (such as Rumbler and the majority of GAF) is that what the MMO player is looking for vs. what the kind of gamer on this thread are looking for are actually very different.

The biggest difference is that the hardcore MMO player wants to be skill tested in teamwork and execution, the single-player / casually online gamer just wants a steady stream of fresh and new experiences to enjoy. The hardcore MMO player wants be have some casual social interaction-sort of at the level you might find casually talking to people at a larger party, for example-while working towards their common goals. The single-player / causally online gamer wants to play with real life friends on occasion and sometimes play a set of games solo. The hardcore MMO player seeks excellence in achievement and recognition of that from in-game peers, the other type of gamer doesn't care about that at all.

It's just a completely different mindset. People like Rumbler here can play the games, but they aren't looking for the social hooks and constructs that make the game long-lasting and a "lifestyle" game for the players who play it. If you just play a MMO to strip mine content you will eventually come away disappointed. It is the game's social structure and all of the unexpected things that can come out of a multiplayer game that are the real hook-not the Skinner Box mechanics. That's why MOBAs, very much a cousin of the MMO in a lot of ways moreso than a relative of the online FPS, are so soul-sucking. People get into them and want to do their best, they want to get better and better and push themselves so that they can get up that ladder or get that recognition from the people they play with. That's the hook for those games as well.

[Rufus]

That pretty much describes every streamer I've seen play MOBAs, MMOs and ARPGs.

[Phoenix Dark]

Maybe "ending" isnt the word.  "Closure" might be a better word.

There has been closure in WoW, as I said earlier.

[Don Flamenco]

That reminds me of when I used to be a mental health worker and one of my clients with work expectations came in and wanted them deferred because he was a guild leader in WoW. 

God damn we had a good laugh about that for a while around the office.

what was his gaf username?

[Phoenix Dark]

Yes.  And it was to the detriment of the game's hook, as you also mentioned.

Yes. I of course am speaking from the perspective of a former hardcore raider, although as I said even non-raiders viewed Arthas the same way. There are more causal players who still enjoy fishing, pvp, pet battles, and all that other shit but even they seem fed up (given the sub exile).

Ultimately I think the other aspects of WoW allow players to determine when they have accomplished enough or "won" on their terms. Not only am I satisfied having defeated Arthas, I feel like there's nothing else for me to prove skill-wise; I'm a great tank and did just about everything a tank can do. Every now and then I get the urge to play, and I know I'll go back eventually, but it won't be for any meaningful amount of time. I'll check and see if any friends still play, figure out the top guilds now, check the auction house...shit like that.

[magus]

waiting simulator 2013

[Cerveza mas fina]

Great post from frag.

[Diunx]

Fantastic thread GR!

[headwalk]

All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

lack of satisfying closure is essentially endemic to video games at this point. they're either competitive experiences where everyone just gives up once they reach their glass ceiling, or they have their spluttering franchised corpse dragged along by arbitrary sequels and season pass obligations until everyone on the development team kills themselves.

[Positive Touch]

words

*thinks of who around here likes to play mmos

  makes perfect sense!

[etiolate]

It's not as binary as Frag describes. I know people who played WoW for thousands of hours who barely touched things like raiding or competitive PVP. It's just that the MMO/MOBA player that Frag describes is so insular a community that they don't realize there's anyone or any concept outside of themselves within the game.

[brob]

everybody sucking frag's dick but nobody bothered to like his post. smh.