Triumph plays THE CITIZEN KANE OF GAMING: FINAL JUDGMENT on post #111

[archnemesis]

The horse AI is great. You just need to learn how to control it. As long as you don't press forward it controls beautifully.

[brob]

He has a poor understanding of how trees work and he can't see cliffs or ledges further than a horse length. The game doesn't demand a smart horse, so it's no biggie. But the horse is still stupid.

[etiolate]

Ico is like a 3d Flashback/Out of this World with a different mood and setting. Anyone getting mad at it has some insecurities. It sets out to do something and it does it exceptionally well. It's like an adventure through a child's nightmare with an mid 80s fantasy vibe.

[Human Snorenado]

Ico is like a 3d Flashback/Out of this World with a different mood and setting. Anyone getting mad at it has some insecurities. It sets out to do something and it does it exceptionally well. It's like an adventure through a child's nightmare with an mid 80s fantasy vibe.

Not really. You just seem to have a lot of insecurities with people not agreeing with you on Ico. You're better than this, man.

no he isn't

[etiolate]

People get mad at things trying consciously to be art, always have always will. It mostly just depends on how successful you personally think it was in that goal that determines how rustled your jimmies are.

Right. However, the boy's treehouse aspect of vidya seems to worsen this. "Arts for fegs, but vidya gaems can't be for fegs so what r yoo doing to my vidya GWARG"

[Human Snorenado]

For me it's more along the lines of, "art is cool and vidya are cool, but trying to present vidya as art usually just detracts from what makes vidya enjoyable so let's not do that."

I mean, Asian food and cheese are both fucking delicious, but you don't mix the two because it doesn't work.

[Human Snorenado]

I can't really tell whether triumph or exodust are against games as art, i think it's more likely that they're a little cynical and internally groans whenever they think they see a game overextending itself, possibly coming off as hoity toity or pseudointellectual. There's nothing wrong with that imho except that it makes a lot of developers afraid to take risks with shit.

That's pretty much it for me.  I would go further and say: Art is awesome.  Games are awesome.  Art is by and large a passive experience, and games are by and large an interactive experience.  Do we see where trying to mix the two might result in something that's both shitty art and a shitty game?  Get your art in movies, music, galleries, etc.  Get your games from, well, games.  I just don't think it's worth the effort to cross the streams.

[Rufus]

I don't think Ueda sets out to make art. He just has a hard-on for cooking things down to their essentials. He doesn't put something in a game just because that's what you do. What results gets held up as art simply because it's different. He also seems to be a  perfectionist special fellow, which is why we'll see The Last Guardian in the PS4s last year of life, if ever.
SotC for instance gets a lot of mileage out of authenticity where it counts, with a lot of nothing in-between, because there's no need for it. Agro actually behaves like a horse, his animations look very convincing and you can even pet him. Part of that makes people hate how he controls, but I liked that he was a creature and not a vehicle.

[Positive Touch]

SotC for instance gets a lot of mileage out of authenticity where it counts, with a lot of nothing in-between, because there's no need for it. Agro actually behaves like a horse, his animations look very convincing and you can even pet him. Part of that makes people hate how he controls, but I liked that he was a creature and not a vehicle.

and there's the problem i have: that making a game thats trying to make you feel something means you have to sacrifice gameplay.

there's no reason sotc's world had to be so empty and flat; you could just as easily make a landscape that required the dude to interact with the world and navigate more complicated terrain. but when you're trying to keep it from being videogamey then you're gonna try to avoid typical videogame-logic puzzles and scenarios. but its really hard to think of a new, untested framework for interactivity in 3d game worlds, so devs just give us that "quiet wonderment" b.s. that is boring as shit to play. or even worse, we get something like ico, where they put a lot of time into the scenario but half-ass the shit out of the game mechanics and hope we dont mind too much.

you can create an infinite number of ways to make an interactive 3d world, but when you are using the framework that's been established by the last 30 years of action gaming, you are working with waaaay too limited of a template.

[Positive Touch]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

my life for typing that up

  ueda for his fails

[close]

[Joe Molotov]

So how bout that Last of Us?

[Human Snorenado]

I've only been able to play up until the part where you meet up with Ellie.  In about a week, I'm off school until the middle of August, and I'm planning on doing nothing but cat assing games when I'm not working.

[Positive Touch]

edit:

 

[chronovore]

I've only been able to play up until the part where you meet up with Ellie.  In about a week, I'm off school until the middle of August, and I'm planning on doing nothing but cat assing games when I'm not working.

Looked up cat-assing, ended up watching Indian rat-eaters NatGeo special. THANKS, OBAMA.

[etiolate]

I pray that one day you all acquire a bit of taste.

[Human Snorenado]

I pray that one day you all acquire a bit of taste.

I pray one day you're able to pull your own head out of your ass, that's no way to go through life

[chronovore]

I'm of the opinion that videogames are just as much art as TV series or movies. Some are good, some are bad, and it doesn't matter if anyone agrees that what is or isn't.

A problem which does occur with the "our game is ART" crowd is when games start aping other media in order to rationalize their own position as capital-A Art. I'm sick of games where I finish off the boss, and then it cuts to a pre-rendered movie where the Player Character really-really finishes off the main boss. "Oh, hey. Thanks for that. Glad I played for 30 hours so the boss could be killed off in a non-playable sequence."

And I count QTEs pretty much the same way.

If games are art, they're still figuring out their way, and their parameters. It's exciting.

[etiolate]

Agreed, it's interesting to see the medium figure out how it works in its own unique way. It shouldn't really be this point of fury to even discuss the art subject as the discussion is likely beneficial for the whole of gaming. 

[chronovore]

My copy arrived! Looking forward to this!

[Stoney Mason]

tl dr

story good. Gameplay bad.

Also my opinion.

[Himu]

tl dr

story good. Gameplay bad.

Also my opinion.

you made this video, stoney?

[Stoney Mason]

Nah. Just a random youtube video.

[Bebpo]

Is this now the main thread for the game?  I put it on hold for a week or two while I was busy and playing other shorter indie games.  Got back to it this week and just finished it.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wow.  There are some things I think the game could've done to be even better, but good god, this is an 11/10 game is there was one.  Up there with Metal Gear Solid 3, Silent Hill 2, and Half-Life 2 for me.  Best story in a game this generation, and even counting stuff like Planescape Torment, this is the best script that's ever been in a videogame.  A movie version of this done right could easily be No Country For Men-ish Best Picture Oscar material.  Wow.

[close]

 

[Himu]

Wow.  There are some things I think the game could've done to be even better, but good god, this is an 11/10 game is there was one.  Up there with Metal Gear Solid 3, Silent Hill 2, and Half-Life 2 for me.  Best story in a game this generation, and even counting stuff like Planescape Torment, this is the best script that's ever been in a videogame.  A movie version of this done right could easily be No Country For Men-ish Best Picture Oscar material.  Wow.

JESUS CHRIST BEBPO GODDAMIT YOU FUCK FAPFIJDA;SJ;JDS;FSDF

Now I have to play it :sadbron

[Bebpo]

I think Silent Hill 2 is actually a really good comparison.  SH2 doesn't have amazingly deep or varied gameplay (some people may even say the combat is repetitive and sucks!), but combined with great level design and a very strong narrative + top-notch visual art/music it succeeds at being a overall monumental game experience.  That's basically TLoU to a T.

It's not like Half-life 2 has amazingly deep combat either.  The combat is pretty average for an FPS; but the overall experience is a fantastic one because everything is put together so well.


MGS3 is one of the only games where the gameplay is incredibly deep , fun and A++++ and the narrative/level design/visual audio/experience is incredible as well.  I replay MGS3 for the full package, whereas I replay SH2 or Half-life 2 for the story/adventure experience.  I know TLoU is going to be one of the very few games I replay every few years.  Would do another run now, but want to give some time for the whole thing to sink in, plus I've got other games I'm in the middle of to finish.


But I actually like the gameplay in TLoU quite a damn bit.  Fun stealth and some of the most intense gun/physical combat I've experienced in a game.  It does the "realistic" gun combat while still making shooting fun thing really well.  But just playing Devil's Advocate a bit for the gameplay haters.

[Himu]

Ordering TLOU from Amazon.

[archnemesis]

I had a lot more fun with the combat in The Last of Us than in Half-Life 2. HL2 did puzzles better though.

[Human Snorenado]

Ooops!  I was gonna say, listen to the next episode of the Cruncheons for a chance to win my copy of TLOU (complete with Shaka's art) but apparently you bought the game already Himu.

[chronovore]

I'll post to this thread, rather than the Backloggin' one, as this is topic specific.

Started this yesterday.

First, the bad:
PSN updated on game insert, took PSN time. Which is like geological time.
Beautiful particle system shows up for 5 minutes or so. Am I supposed to push something? Is this a loading screen? Finally a percentage shows up, and begins counting up, really slowly. Hopefully this was the one-time HDD install. It didn't say.
Finally, a Start Screen.
Gameplay seems to frequently limit player controls; Joel can't jog even when I'm trying to catch up with the NPC.
During indoor gameplay, some of the mid-distance buildings seen through windows look decidedly less detailed than the rest of the world.


Now the good:
EVERYTHING ELSE IS AWESOME.

The game's introduction, the horror movie-like opening credits, the placement of collectible and inventory items which make sense, little storytelling cues, voice acting and exceptional facial animation... It is crazy impressive.

I found it difficult to set down the controller. Both from a gameplay interest and wanting to know where the story is going next, I just wanted to play more.

Contrast this with Bioshock Infinite, where it all feels like a chore.

[Human Snorenado]

It was the best of times; it was the worst of times; it was the most maddeningly out of context times.

This was a decent game.  Judging it based on what Naughty Dog set out to do, TLOU is a home run.  Paradoxically, that doesn't mean that it's, you know, objectively good GAME design.  Combat is shallow, the game is seriously on rails, and there are (charitably) five types of enemies in the entire game: dude with melee weapon, dude with gun, infected, clicker and bloater.  The on rails criticism won't be bought into by some... but I personally believe that for the setting and content matter, the game would have been better served by being an open world, sandbox type of game.  It's not like we have anything that did that this generation to compare it to, though!  (snark intended)  Mechanically, the game is not very impressive.

It's not trying to be, though.  Which is where "judging something based on what it's trying to do" comes into play.  Look, this is probably never the sort of game I'm going to be predisposed to liking.  It's all about setting an awesome atmosphere and evoking feels in the player.  I don't generally buy into that stuff.  But... even I did here, to an extent.  So, when even a jaded jerkface like me will cop to catching feels, then you know that Naughty Dog accomplished their mission here.  For a console entry, the game is seriously gorgeous, even moreso when you consider that it's hampered by, you know, the whole PS3 thing.

If I had to give it a grade, I'd probably call it a B, B+, 8.5 out of 10, thumbs up, etc etc.  I enjoyed playing it, especially once I got out of the original QZ. 

One last note- it's impossible to talk about this fucking game without bringing up the cringe-inducing, jizz-spurting accolades the "video game journalist" set have heaped upon it.  I don't personally think that Naughty Dog set out to craft THE CITIZEN KANE OF GAMING, and it's unfair and possibly borderline insane to judge it on such a criteria.  Besides, Casablanca is better anyway- YEAH I FUCKIN SAID IT, WHAT?  WHAT?  But this reaction has sadly become par for the course for a bunch of bootlicking, hobby justifying, "me too" cretins that appear to be incapable of not only judging and appreciating games based on what they are and are trying to do, but also of any sort of useful function as a gatekeeper, critic and watchdog of the industry.  The sooner they all die in a fire, the better.

[chronovore]

I totally thought Tess was being played by the woman who played Nina Meyers in "24," and she appears to be visually built to resemble her... but it turned out to be a different actress from that series.



Got to play some more, soon, or I'm going to forget the controls. I'm at the first spot where there are a number of Infected, and a Clicker. It's a pretty simple problem to solve, but I keep messing up the timing of the initial grab, and get swarmed.

[Human Snorenado]

Chrono- ugh, yeah that first room screwed with me, too.  Once you get the initial guy, who just stands there with his back turned basically waiting to be killed out of the way, if you have a shiv I would try to get the Clicker with a stealth kill next, because that guy is an asshole.  If you keep having trouble with it, remember that the revolver has way more stopping power than the basic handgun if you have the revolver by that point, I forget.  Killing shit early on sucks because your weapons are all shitty and you probably have like, no ammo.  Once you get better weapons and can start upgrading them combat becomes, well, "less of a chore" is the word I'd use.  I took great pleasure in setting shit on fire.

[chronovore]

Yeah, the revolver is right at the start of that encounter. I can't seem to hit for shit though. There's some kind of sway built in? Or maybe just no targeting assist, and I suck?

After that first "gimme" kill, I'm going to try getting the guy in the back hallway again. His pattern implies I can gank him, then approach the clicker from the rear.

Gotta say, as pretty as the game is in general, clickers look weird, like they're artifacting graphically. I think the head may be luminescent, but it looks awkwardly palette-swappy.

Thanks for the advice!