spirituality/philosophy/religion thread

[lordmaji]

Enlightenment comes with age. Wait till you're older.

[Himu]

Hmmm.

Okay so, I became a Christian apostate when I was 18. That said, I still help out my old church. I've known those people my entire life, so I find it disrespectful to not help now and then when they need the support. More than that, I am of the opinion that all religions lead to the same ultimate goal, but you can go for your own favored method or philosophy. So I know there's some good people there trying to live their life to their God, and I've always respected that.

Further, the church is dying. Well, not literally. But the young adults it has is paltry compared to the numbers they had two decades ago when I was a child. People my age just aren't joining, and those who are members (such as myself) don't come. They've got a small stable of regular young adult members who are faithful to the church, and unfortunately, churches are like a business - they need new blood to continue on and the elder members aren't exactly getting younger. This of course, is a church-wide issue, and not exactly new. But it's a problem my old church faces.

So every now and they, as I said, I like to help out. They've tried to coax me into attending again, but I really only attend to support my family (family/friends being in plays, or choir singing, things like that). I got a letter in the mail that said they are holding a meeting for all young adults at the church to talk about some ideas to get more young adults.

Now, here's my dilemma. I'm an atheist, and if I'm going to help them going forward, I think i should be candid on my views and not throw kid punches. I'd like to help them, even if it's small. Should I reveal my lack of belief to them and then throw out some ideas? How should I present ideas to them from the guise of a non-believer without causing offense?

[Himu]

I was going to say that I'm a non-believer and give them data on low young adult attendance via polling research, and follow that up with ways that church organizations have communicated they can gain new young members. As in, express that I know a lot of people who are now non-religious, or even go as far as being non-believers, and these are the reasons they do not attend, here's way to connect with young adults who you potentially CAN reach.

Good idea?

[Himu]

I highly doubt anyone will watch this, but I'm a big supporter of Ajahn Brahm. I find him very wise. I haven't been practicing lately, I need to get back on that.



He makes some of the most beautiful dharma talks. 

[Himu]

At the same time, I feel like I should be honest. I don't think there's very little to gain by hiding it anymore.

[Madrun Badrun]

I've been getting heavily into Rastafarianism lately; mostly for rastacap.

[Himu]

Maybe I'm just not at the age yet where lying as a form of conflict avoidance bothers me.

It's not that it doesn't bother me too. It's just that I feel like I can help them more by telling them the truth rather than avoiding it, because there's many more like me - increasingly so - in the black american community.

[Stoney Mason]

I don't think you would be "helping them" them much by doing such a thing although in this context I don't really know what help means. You might feel better for being honest and getting people to stop trying to get you to go back to church which are probably good things but also separate things.

There are times for honesty and there are times for white lies. Each person decides when those thing best apply to their situations.

[Himu]

Well, I guess I should keep it to myself, but then the question will come up, why I don't attend. I feel as if it'll become a subject anyways.

Should I even go?

[Stoney Mason]

Well, I guess I should keep it to myself, but then the question will come up, why I don't attend. I feel as if it'll become a subject anyways.

Should I even go?

I'm not necessarily trying to influence you either way. If you tell them you are an atheist that's fine. If you don't tell them that's fine too. But it you think its a subject now and questions come up with your current stance, stating you are an atheist will only lead to more questions initially and maybe even stronger attempts to convert you. That along with a lot of judgment about you That's what religious people do. I'm not saying that's not potentially worth it. Honesty can be a good thing. I just also find that honesty can be a bit of a hassle in some situations.

With friends I've met as an adult I'm very obvious about my atheist feelings. With people I grew up with or family, I tend to keep it to myself. They get the impression afterwhile that I'm not religious and leave me alone on such issues when I don't engage back. That's probably not the most honest way to live but its also easier imo than having a religious debate with people who are very religious. Those conversations, I personally tend to find pointless as nobody convinces anybody of anything. If a young person in the family were to ask me my opinion, I would be honest with them though. I would tell them I don't believe in any one religion. I don't know what happens. And that's the way I live my life.

[Himu]

I don't talk about it either. But in this case, where we are trying to discuss ways to get the church new blood, I feel it could be pertinent. You're right though, it could backfire. I almost feel just going would backfire since I go to church once or twice a year, so them sending me an invitation to the meeting is already a form of conversion attempt.

[Stoney Mason]

I find myself debating the morals of my friends/family religion with them rather than the legitimacy of the concept of religion itself. Because I feel I might change their opinion on the former but have very little chance on the latter.

I constantly tell them their views on gay people are ignorant and backwards. We as black people should be the last people to be prejudiced toward other groups. So I feel like I get the good feelings of honesty I want without the immediate hard stone block that the word atheist conjures for religious people.

But that's just me. There is probably equal merit and potential gain from just being honest which some other person might be able to elucidate on.

[Himu]

I don't say shit about it because I know that's a touchy issue. One time when I was teen, I was watching a Moses movie with my dad and they get to the part where they put blood above the homes to protect them from God's wrath on Egypt, where he kills all first born children. I blurted out loud,"welllll...that's fucked up" and my dad got pissed that I would call what he believes fucked up. I try not to bring it up and try to be respectful at all times when I'm in the company of believers.

My parents know of my non belief. I'm definitely candid when the subject comes up.

[Himu]

edit

[Himu]

New Ajahn Brahm dharma talk.

Have you ever gotten upset or angry when people don't appreciate all the kindness you've shown them? Ajahn Brahm explains how to keep giving without expecting or getting any reward.

Very wise, intelligent man.

[Himu]

Instead of going to the meeting I wrote a four page letter detailing the nature of how they can get their young adult ministry healthy again. I detailed pragmatic approach that discussed the church's lack of diversity, conservative sermons, and emphasis on non legitimate attempts to get the church booming again (for example, a guitarist) that young adults will sniff out as a desperate plea for new life. I told them I was not alone, that this was not their problem but a church-wide problem and that they would do better combining their heads with fellow churches struggling with the same problem. With the lack of young adults coming to church, competition shouldn't be the focus anymore, naturally. I talked about things such as Christian exceptionalism, the Christian bubble where they think they are one giant club and don't have to confer to anyone else. I printed out articles that go over the young adult church exodus and ways to help it. I thought my letter was pragmatic, respectful, and shining in realism.

I went to church the next week and apparently the lady I sent the letter to "keeps it with her at all times" so I tested her and asked if I could see the letter so I could edit something in. She didn't have it. she said it was insightful and that she respected my opinion and that the letter was amazingly telling of what they're up against. I apologized if she felt the letter rude or curt. But I stressed that I really care because I've known the people my whole life.

she said my peers want a more contemporary service, and that includes...I'm not even sure. They're not even sure. I gave them a solid game plan and ideas and they discarded it.

My mom later told me that she really thought the letter was "negative" and that I shouldn't bother going to the next meeting if I'm going to be negative and that my letter was not constructive. She was bemused as to how a someone who rejected Christianity at 17-18 would have any interest in helping a Christian church. Really?

They were also offended by some of my suggestions. I suggested they implement something from a dharma talk. Dharma talks are Buddhist sermons where after the person giving the sermon the whole group has a dialogue about the subject, a "talk" so to speak, and that allows the people there to ask the person giving the talk for advice. It's practical and it includes everyone in the room. It makes everyone feel more connected than just listening to one dude tell us how to feel for half an hour. They were insulted I brought up dharma talks and my mom asked if I would bring up Christianity at a Buddhist temple. Yes, I've met many Christians at the zen center.

But that's besides the point, I'm highly annoyed the lady I mailed the letter to - who is someone I've known since I was born - she lied to my face about how she felt, and that they proved me right with their Christian Club exceptionalism (tm), which sadly disappointed me even more.

I'm not sure what I was expecting. I don't think I'll be going to the church again except to support my family. The next time they ask me to do something for them, I will flat out tell them, I don't believe in Jesus, leave me alone, in the nicest way possible unless it's something that actually helps people (food bank).

[Squiddy]

You think too highly of people, Him-chan.

[Himu]

You can never think too highly if people. I just wanted to help. I see the church dying in ten-fifteen years.

[Kara]

Sorry it didn't work out, H, but you took a lot of initiative there and that's commendable.

[Himu]

Maybe it was because I wrote a letter and letters can be interpreted in their own way. In person may be lots better. Should I give it another shot?

[Squiddy]

Maybe it was because I wrote a letter and letters can be interpreted in their own way. In person may be lots better. Should I give it another shot?

Like you said, the church is probably going to die within the next couple of decades because of its myopism and inability to evolve at the same pace as society, why do you want it survive so bad then?

If it is because you like the position it has in your community, why not instead focus your energies on helping open up some sort of Multi-religious center where people of all faiths and creed can come and discuss without prejudice, and do stuff like Dharma talks regardless of their belief?

[Kara]

Maybe it was because I wrote a letter and letters can be interpreted in their own way. In person may be lots better. Should I give it another shot?

I've only read one of your letters but you seemed able to express yourself in that medium plenty fine.

If it matters to you, and it seems like it does, then another approach seems warranted given the response you received. What would you do differently in person?

[Himu]

I don't know why I care so much. I can't turn it off. I for some reason have a sense of duty to care about the churches future in some way. Despite not attending. Which is stupid. I'm not attached to the church. It is a thing to me. But the people within it are people who truly were or are vested in my opinion, and I feel like if I don't offer it, as someone with a perspective on why they're not gaining young people, it would do them a disservice.

As for opening up religious center, I think that community is important and as expressed in this thread multiple times, community be more than religion. However, it is nice for people of different religions to gather. For some reason, I have no desire to open a faith center for multiple faiths because I've already experienced that at the zen center through meditation classes and dharma talks. I feel like I have nothing to offer, spiritually, to anyone. I have gone from Christian to confused agnostic to experimental Muslim to a "finally can come to terms with the fact I'm an" atheist. So I don't think about that because I know that I offer very little in that venue.

[Himu]

Maybe it was because I wrote a letter and letters can be interpreted in their own way. In person may be lots better. Should I give it another shot?

I've only read one of your letters but you seemed able to express yourself in that medium plenty fine.

If it matters to you, and it seems like it does, then another approach seems warranted given the response you received. What would you do differently in person?

Well, in person we can talk about things. If they want to talk about a contemporary service, which is something the kids I grew up with - now young adults - think is crucial to the growth of the church despite pursuing that since we were 14/15 years old I would be able to deflect and try to make them think about more than just the latest fad. They've worked with fads a lot over the years. If they bring up a musician for instance, an easy retort to that is why would young adults choose our church over Lakewood Church, which is literally 10 minutes away? I'd be able to tell them that rather than mimicking larger churches, they should fill a niche that appeals to other people. Because if people want that contemporary mega church feel, Houston has one if not the largest mega church in the USA, so why should someone pick you over Lakewood and the black mega churches in the area? There's a church on the same street that's one minute away and they look exceedingly healthy. I'm going to emphasize visiting other churches and research on what they can truly do to individualize themselves. The fact that I'm going to approach it as a business is again, a big reason as to why I am no longer Christian.

[Himu]

Lakewood:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood_Church

[Himu]

I may do this Bodhisattva class.

I'm open minded to it. But I didn't do the introduction to Zen class. Unless they're talking about the introduction to Meditation class.

http://www.houstonzen.org/html/events.html

I wish I had the opportunity to go to ethnic zen places more often but they're all in Chinatown, which is on the edge of Houston.

[Squiddy]

Zen is cool stuff.
I'm a raging materialist with no spiritual beliefs now though.

[Himu]

Went to the meeting today. Last time I go to that church unless it's for a funeral.

These people are the same shallow, uppity, moronic middle class blacks they were a decade ago when we were teenagers. The premise of the meeting? Things we want done to worship to appeal to the young adults. But anyone with a brain - which these people do not have btw - would know that the problem of this church:



Isn't worship.

This church that I've been apart of since birth is a black church in the currently being gentrified neighborhood of Houston's Third Ward - think of the Wards like Sectors from FFVII. Instead of adapting to their neighborhood or being a foothold in their community, they're worried about how to make the church worship service be more contemporary. Let's have jazz music and young adult days while we ignore the fact that the pastors own daughter has found a new church. Instead of focusing on how and why they're driving people away, they sat there talking about how they're self conscious about what to wear to church. I fucking hate uppity middle class blacks so fucking much.

They focused on the fact that the young adults don't have much say in the church. Problem is, we talked about the same shit when we were pre teens and teenagers. We had to fight to be allowed to serve communion. Bunch of self important "educated" distinguished black fellows ran the church then, and ran the church now. So while they were fiddling with their AKA badges, I brought up the point that we've been having that dialogue since 1997 or earlier, and that we should focus on being a group that will make other people want to come. Did they respond well to that? Nope! "I agree, I can't invite my friends because they like to go to church wearing jeans and a t-shirt. I don't think they'd feel comfortable."

Fucking. Morons.

Then the pastors wife, who was in the meeting too, brought up that if we aren't comfortable amongst ourselves, we should to expect others to feel comfortable in our church. Well said, ma'am. Meanwhile, no one sat next to me. One of the pastors daughters even came to the meeting. Empty seat next to me. I don't stink, I look good, I've known you for years, bitch. She gonna go look for another seat, and dude goes out to get a new chair. I walked out after that. These people lack the awareness of someone both blind and deaf. Agreeing with the pastors wife that they need to get to know each other more while making me feel like a leper in their super, secret exclusive I've got a stick up my ass Black Christian club.

You know, I like to back up my arguments with evidence and analysis. So before going to "my" church I went to a church a minute away on the same street. Nice and healthy. I visited and they are everything "my" church needs. Look at the evidence yourself.

Since I'm on the topic of exclusivity,  which church looks more inviting as a spiritual community?

The church with cars packed out in front or the one where everyone parks in the back?






The church that appeals to a wider range of demographics that actually reflects the neighborhood?




Or the exclusive one that appeals only to blacks?



I resolved after leaving the meeting today that I have no place there. The people I once knew are now vapid strangers. I want nothing to do with them and their poisonous church. I tried. Time to put my coat up.

My dad agrees. But he won't leave because my mom is in the clique.

[Squiddy]

~LCD screens in a church~

American materialism 

[Himu]

[Kara]

I really admire your dedication to helping this community H, I'm just sorry they don't want to be helped.

[Squiddy]

In all seriousness, it is great you're being a helpful human being himu.
We could do with more people like you on this gay Earth.

[Himu]

All I did was to a meeting. I didn't do shit.

[Yeti]

Not for lack of trying though.

[Himu]

Meh.

[Himu]

I realize that a lot of those words I posted today were made in anger and frustration. They were not the right words to eBay, and it was an immature post created by own hubris and emotional state. I have a lot of work to do, I guess.

[Squiddy]

Find peace with Allah.

[Himu]

Hmm. Talked to friend about Sunday and I'm willing to try again.

I decided I'm going to take that bodhisattva class. Let the road of self improvement continue. though I am worried I am not up to the task, I'm willing to try. Nothing will hurt trying.

[Squiddy]

There is no try, there is only do or do not.

[Himu]

Watched some vid with Steve Buscemi and a monk about that very thing a few minutes ago.

Another Anahn Brahm talk, this time on living life without religious hierarchy.

https://m.

[Atramental]

After some more introspection I'm beginning to accept that psychedelics might not the best thing for me in this current stage of life I'm going through.

Once I have my own place I might purchase an isolation tank and use that as a means to sort myself out. 

[Himu]

Huh?

[Positive Touch]

After some more introspection I'm beginning to accept that psychedelics might not the best thing for me in this current stage of life I'm going through.

Once I have my own place I might purchase an isolation tank and use that as a means to sort myself out. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=cool+story+bro&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=EJW0U9DmDcGOyAT66oLACA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=960&bih=474

[Atramental]

Huh?

[Himu]

What does that have to do with spirituality/religion? I mean, LSD can create a spiritual experience, but it isn't spirituality in itself.

[Squiddy]

After some more introspection I'm beginning to accept that psychedelics might not the best thing for me in this current stage of life I'm going through.

Once I have my own place I might purchase an isolation tank and use that as a means to sort myself out. 

Good on you.
I think the best thing you could do is "get outside more".

Maybe getting a little bit of sunshine on you will help, you know vitamin D deficiencies and stuff.

[Atramental]

What does that have to do with spirituality/religion? I mean, LSD can create a spiritual experience, but it isn't spirituality in itself.

Spirituality, to me, encapsulates altered states of consciousness through psychedelics, meditation, sensory deprivation, etc. 

Good on you.
I think the best thing you could do is "get outside more".

Maybe getting a little bit of sunshine on you will help, you know vitamin D deficiencies and stuff.

Yeah, once I quit my 2nd job after July I'll definitely be outside more.

[Himu]

What type of meditation do you do?

How can you think psychedelics encapsulate a spiritual consciousness if you've never done them?

[Atramental]

What type of meditation do you do?

Vipassana.

I've only done around five 30 minutes sessions so far but once I quit my 2nd job I'll have more time to dedicate to it.

How can you think psychedelics encapsulate a spiritual consciousness if you've never done them?

From some of the accounts that I've read and listened to.

I mean, I am of the mindset that everything can be and is a spiritual experience to some degree.

[Himu]

Okay. What I experience did you have with vippasana?

Haven't done vippasana, but with zen, I get a better handle at taking my mind, and the brains stories, but I never considered it a higher level of consciousness. However it does help create some odd moments. The more you stare at the wall, the more shapes and light changes. It can be an odd, and somewhat frightening experience. One time while meditating, the room got black. It was really my eyes and the way they perceived light differently, but it helps to feed the idea that the senses are created by mere perception and what we perceive to be true, even if it is false. It truly makes one question our surroundings and what we are currently sensing. At least that was my interpretation, which cannot be wholly correct because that was my own personal experience.

One of my favorite things about zazen is the realization that our brains really aren't us. The brain is a part of us of course, but the more I meditate, the more it almost comes off like a parasite. When you sit in a room, staring at a wall, and pay attention to everything around you, it's incredibly hard to stop thinking. Of course, the goal isn't to stop thinking, but it's funny how the brain always comes up with irrelevant stories. It can't just shut up. I find that element fascinating, as it truly makes the rare moment of stillness all the more illuminating.


Don't you have to sit for long sessions in vippasana? My zazen meditation times are 20-30 minutes a sit.

[Himu]

[Atramental]

Okay. What experience did you have with vippasana?

Can't really say that I've "experienced" much so far. I mean, I'm just starting out.

All I do (or at least try to do) is focus on my breathing while thoughts, feelings, and sensations bubble up. And if I get too lost in thought I come to realization that I'm lost in thought and then I go back to focusing on my breathing.

Don't you have to sit for long sessions in vippasana? My zazen meditation times are 20-30 minutes a sit.

I don't believe there's really a set time limit for vipassana.

It's basically "do it for as long as you can stand to do it and don't try to force yourself into long, tedious sessions"

The reason why I'm trying out vipassana is because I've heard it's a good for people who are new to meditation (which I am).

[Himu]

There is no set time in zen. I just like 30 minutes.

[benjipwns]

[Himu]

well that's fascinating though not surprising

[Himu]

http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

[Squiddy]

http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982

Interesting statistics, shit article.

[Rufus]

When researchers asked people whether they had taken part in esoteric spiritual practices such as having a Reiki session or having their aura read, the results were almost identical (between 38 and 40%) for people who defined themselves as religious, non-religious or atheist.

    The implication is that we all believe in a not dissimilar range of tangible and intangible realities. Whether a particular brand of higher consciousness is included in that list (“I believe in God”, “I believe in some sort of higher force”, “I believe in no higher consciousness”) is little more than a detail.

[Kara]

So Jewish people like themselves the most eh.

Guess that's another stereotype annihilated.

[Himu]

http://www.tricycle.com/blog/dont-just-sit-there-do-something



Amazing piece

Took a steaming dump on passive western "buddhism"