Which of these two was the bigger cultural Icon for people born after 1970?

[Himu]

Jordan's are ugly as fuck.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

There is more talent top to bottom now than in the 90's. Just sayin

I'd disagree with that heavily.

And you'd be incorrect

2007 Mavericks: Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Erick Dampier, Devin Harris, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, DeSagana Diop, Greg Buckner, Devean George.

2015 Warriors: Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes, David Lee, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bogut, Marreese Speights, Shaun Livingston.

Are you kidding me???

His point is the 2015 Warriors are 2-3 star players deep EACH....so are the Cavs/Hawks/Thunder/Heat/Rockets/etc

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Jordan's are ugly as fuck.

Meh, they're hit and miss but I stopped wearing high tops when I was 25 so....

[CatsCatsCats]

You're just not gonna topple soccer. If anything, soccer is grabbing market share in America.

[Himu]

Basketball also requires indoor statdiums, hardwood floors, and baskets. Ultimately, it's still far more expensive than soccer. The reason soccer is popular the world over is because anyone can play it, and it's fucking cheap.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Basketball will at least challenge soccer for popularity within the next 50 years globally.

I think that's a long shot. And it would be pretty hard for it to happen, at least in any sort of meaningful sense unless

- FIFA doesn't develop the sport properly in the asian, african and north american conferences and continues to suck UEFA's dick. and I think they will, given recent overtures with the Goal Project.

- FIBA becomes a non-joke and other leagues in the world show signs of being at least decently consistent places for players to develop skills before they try their hand in the NBA. But as of right now... lol. Even with the right amount of investment and infrastructure building and skill development it's hard for a league to git gud.

Oh I don't know that it will ever exceed it globally, but with the American influence it will be in the discussion and will most certainly be the first American bred professional sport to expand to europe someday.

And much like basketball has done to boxing, football, baseball, and even soccer in some countries. It will steal the best athletes.

[CatsCatsCats]

Dunno, NFL coming to London, breh

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Dunno, NFL coming to London, breh

Don't hold your breath on that. I played over seas with NFL Europe. It was weird to hear people cheer louder for punts and field goals than 70 yard touchdown passes.

[Himu]

UK has a growing NFL market.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

UK has a growing NFL market.

I don't know how it's fair to players to travel that far to play a game as of yet. Will need a few teams to allow them to be there for few weeks.

[Himu]

What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA

[Am_I_Anonymous]

What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA

Less players on a team. Arena's are already built. And I see the absurd salaries soccer players make (Doesn't Messi make like 2 million a match?)

So I really don't know babe.

[Joe Molotov]

Need Tupac added to the poll.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Need Tupac added to the poll.

He'd be a solid 4th out of 3.

[seagrams hotsauce]

How exactly is being the billionaire owner of an NBA franchise (First black person to do so) mediocre in your book?

I was really just addressing his career as a player, but defend his career as an owner if you want

[ToxicAdam]

MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)

Pre-1984, Mtv was a glorified college rock radio station. Cable television was a luxury item for the rich and some of the middle class. Of those scant few subscribers, some cable companies didn't even carry Mtv (That's why early Mtv would spam their network with "I want my Mtv" ads). It wasn't even that influential on the music industry yet. The explosion in pop music in 1984 (and government deregulation) changed all that.

So, it doesn't even make sense for Mtv to cater to an audience that didn't have access to their network or even scoffed at the idea of paying for television.

 

[Am_I_Anonymous]

How exactly is being the billionaire owner of an NBA franchise (First black person to do so) mediocre in your book?

I was really just addressing his career as a player, but defend his career as an owner if you want (Image removed from quote.)

He won 6 titles and then played a couple of seasons in washington were he still averaged 20+ ppg.

And there is no such thing as a billionaire that's bad as his job, just saying. Results are in the wallet.

[Himu]

What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA

Less players on a team. Arena's are already built. And I see the absurd salaries soccer players make (Doesn't Messi make like 2 million a match?)

So I really don't know babe.

I'm not talking about pro ball. I'm talking about kids. In soccer nations, those kids don't even need a goal to get good, or even play. They can just kick the ball around. Doesn't matter where: grass field, concrete street, whatever. Basketball, its only use is bouncing it on concrete/wood, and you need more than person to have fun with it. Poor nations, you'll have a field, the kids can play soccer on it. Basketball, they'll need two hoops, and tall ones in order to be good for an actual game. Soccer will always win because it requires far less to start a game. Kids is how you grow a sport, because it's something all pros do as a child, and I don't see basketball ever eclipsing that simplicity of soccer.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)

Pre-1984, Mtv was a glorified college rock radio station. Cable television was a luxury item for the rich and some of the middle class. Of those scant few subscribers, some cable companies didn't even carry Mtv (That's why early Mtv would spam their network with "I want my Mtv" ads). It wasn't even that influential on the music industry yet. The explosion in pop music in 1984 (and government deregulation) changed all that.

So, it doesn't even make sense for Mtv to cater to an audience that didn't have access to their network or even scoffed at the idea of paying for television.

The GOAT show.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA

Less players on a team. Arena's are already built. And I see the absurd salaries soccer players make (Doesn't Messi make like 2 million a match?)

So I really don't know babe.

I'm not talking about pro ball. I'm talking about kids. In soccer nations, those kids don't even need a goal to get good, or even play. They can just kick the ball around. Doesn't matter where: grass field, concrete street, whatever. Basketball, its only use is bouncing it on concrete/wood, and you need more than person to have fun with it. Poor nations, you'll have a field, the kids can play soccer on it. Basketball, they'll need two hoops, and tall ones in order to be good for an actual game. Soccer will always win because it requires far less to start a game.

But you're acting as if said nations don't already have basketball hoops/courts/etc. They all do.

[ToxicAdam]

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

[Himu]

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.

[seagrams hotsauce]

'Mediocre' is a relative term I guess. Those last couple seasons were by no means terrible, just him getting older and not being able to be as insanely athletic as he used to be. He didn't go out Kobe style.

I disagree about the last point. If your job as an owner is to turn a profit without concern to winning, sure, James Dolan is great at his job, and Jordan still sucks. Jordan isn't making those billions as an owner anyway though, he's making it from endorsements that net him thousands of dollars per second.


Another thought; no group of people will hate Jackson as passionately as 90s Knicks fans hate Jordan. I guess that actually kinda might push the needle in Jordans favor from a 'cultural impact' in a weird way.

[Himu]

I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.

1994

[Am_I_Anonymous]

'Mediocre' is a relative term I guess. Those last couple seasons were by no means terrible, just him getting older and not being able to be as insanely athletic as he used to be. He didn't go out Kobe style.

I disagree about the last point. If your job as an owner is to turn a profit without concern to winning, sure, James Dolan is great at his job, and Jordan still sucks. Jordan isn't making those billions as an owner anyway though, he's making it from endorsements that net him thousands of dollars per second.


Another thought; no group of people will hate Jackson as passionately as 90s Knicks fans hate Jordan. I guess that actually kinda might push the needle in Jordans favor from a 'cultural impact' in a weird way.

Bro, I played Billie Jean at a hillbilly club once before realizing my surroundings. They made the Knick's fans hate of Jordan look petty. Trust me ha ha.

Be a black man playing Michael Jackson at a club called "They Mosey Inn" brehs.

[Rufus]

I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.

And even if you did you probably wouldn't recognize it or simply agree with it, because that's just the kind of creatures we are.

[CatsCatsCats]

Uh oh King of Pop taking back his throne

[Am_I_Anonymous]

Uh oh King of Pop taking back his throne

But he ain't got this duuuuuuuudddeeeee

[Am_I_Anonymous]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

[CatsCatsCats]

Stealthfan probably thinkin Jackson is less black 

[Rufus]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

Didn't even vote.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

Congress not required to amend the vote

[Trent Dole]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

[Am_I_Anonymous]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

[Yeti]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

What does this even mean? Two of the five out of six people listed fucked up? What?

[Fifstar]

From a european (or more closely german perspective), this doesn't even feel close, its Jackson by a landslide. Nobody really gives a shit about basketball here. Yeah, the NBA got a push after the Dream Team in 92 and Jordan rise, but this has faded away over the last ten years (I'd say besides Nowitzki Kobe is the only star remaining for the german market) . Nowadays, NBA has no broadcaster here, not on pay nor free tv. Only one game a week on the german NBA website + the League Pass (national league also has barely any coverage).

Jackson was super huge here. His death was on a level with Ladi Di's death, and that was long after his huge fall off. Peak Jackson was gigantic, far ahead of any level of popularity that Jordan ever had here.
I'd also assume that on a global level women in general care(d) a lot more about Jackson because most aren't remotely as interested in basketball or sports in general as they are in pop music.

[Am_I_Anonymous]

2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up

Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan

What does this even mean? Two of the five out of six people listed fucked up? What?

Go to bed.

[Himu]

I fucking cried when Michael Jackson died. I doubt I'll cry when Jordan dies.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.

1994

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1994

Good point.  I still like 1984 better but 1994 wasn't half bad.

[jakefromstatefarm]

I'd disagree with that heavily.

yeah that isn't true

The growth the sport's seen in the past 20-25 years is a direct result of the NBA's penetration () into the global market. That growth (along with the rise of 24/7 media coverage) has caused a massive shift in the scope of investment. And that's top down. Eligible draftees jump earlier and earlier to the NBA because a contract right now is a smarter career choice than amateur () development that may or may not pay off. High-major programs feature revolving door line-ups because the Association voraciously consumes young talent. 8th-12th graders are herded into shoe and agent camps like cattle. All of this happens at a way higher register than what it looked like pre-(or even during) Jordan. Accessing, investing in, and filtering talent has never been more centralized or voluminous, and we have the financial growth of the NBA (of which Jordan is most responsible, if we have to pin it down to one player) to thank for that.

Tbt I'd vote for Jackson, for no other reason than American pop >>>>>>> American sport in terms of permeation. Oddly, both arguments hinge on the same thing, that sport is the only product that American industry doesn't have a global cultural hegemony on.

[Himu]

I'd disagree with that heavily.

yeah that isn't true

The growth the sport's seen in the past 20-25 years is a direct result of the NBA's penetration () into the global market. That growth (along with the rise of 24/7 media coverage) has caused a massive shift in the scope of investment. And that's top down. Eligible draftees jump earlier and earlier to the NBA because a contract right now is a smarter career choice than amateur () development that may or may not pay off. High-major programs feature revolving door line-ups because the Association voraciously consumes young talent. 8th-12th graders are herded into shoe and agent camps like cattle. All of this happens at a way higher register than what it looked like pre-(or even during) Jordan. Accessing, investing in, and filtering talent has never been more centralized or voluminous, and we have the financial growth of the NBA (of which Jordan is most responsible, if we have to pin it down to one player) to thank for that.

Tbt I'd vote for Jackson, for no other reason than American pop >>>>>>> American sport in terms of permeation. Oddly, both arguments hinge on the same thing, that sport is the only product that American industry doesn't have a global cultural hegemony on.

What's not true? What I said or what AIA said?

[Himu]

I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.

The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music.  MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA.  All within like an 8 month period.

It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.

1994

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1994

Good point.  I still like 1984 better but 1994 wasn't half bad.

[jakefromstatefarm]

What's not true?

that the talent in the NBA 20 years ago >> the talent in the NBA today. it's WAY deeper right now and that's with 3 additional franchises

I wonder if we'll have basketball academies in 40 years. probably not. the USA loves watching amateur () sports

breh, the American public buys the Student-Athlete Integrity^TM narrative hook line and fucking sinker. I think it's so bizarre how American sports fans have this infatuation with the corporate virginity model of the sports-education complex despite the fact they skew conservative. Meanwhile in Socialist dystopia Europe, entertainment talent is farmed in a system that looks like it's straight out of Ayn Rand's wet dream.

[Himu]

Back then, you would have to have built your craft in college basketball. These days, a lot of ball players jump in without forming pro skills. The talent pool has suffered as a result, and the league's lack of talent has spread many teams thin. Back in the 90's, not all teams were championship material, but they still brought it and it was much better balanced.

I would argue that Jordan ruined basketball because now the NBA - Stern in particular, when he was in charge - is obsessed with creating a new Jordan and deifying basketball stars rather than teams. Michael Jackson however, did nothing but contribute awesome to pop music.

Fuck a Jordan.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

basketball used to be my favorite sport

[close]

[cool breeze]

Uh oh King of Pop taking back his throne

But he ain't got this duuuuuuuudddeeeee

inspired by the Simpsons episode about Michael Jackson

[Himu]

basketball is overly star oriented to a stupid level, but

I would blame the perceived prevalence/dominance of iso play on how players are raised/trained , not NBA corporate or fan culture.

Sure, that factors in, but I don't think the other stuff really helps and Jordan arguably contributed heavily to that image.

[TVC15]

At least 2/3rds of Jackson's notoriety comes from negative associations. He's definitely the bigger icon, but very much so not the better one.

[jakefromstatefarm]

Back then, you would have to have built your craft in college basketball. These days, a lot of ball players jump in without forming pro skills. The talent pool has suffered as a result, and the league's lack of talent has spread many teams thin. Back in the 90's, not all teams were championship material, but they still brought it and it was much better balanced.

I would argue that Jordan ruined basketball because now the NBA - Stern in particular, when he was in charge - is obsessed with creating a new Jordan and deifying basketball stars rather than teams.

I mean, what are pro skills? Here are the rosters of Vancouver and Philadelphia in the 1996 season. Here's Boston in 1997. The draft has always been a crap-shoot, that hasn't changed. The most poorly managed teams invariably achieve the worst records year in and year out (sometimes intentionally), then turnover happens which may or may not affect the franchises 'culture,' that hasn't changed either. Teams don't take young talent in an effort to find a new Jordan, they take them because they're way cheaper than signing free agents for ever more expensive veteran minimums (thank you based collective bargaining agreement). I totally agree though, the Stern administration is at least as responsible as Jordan is for the landscape of basketball today. I'd say you really can't understand one without the other.

[nudemacusers]

jordan. dude made me want to buy overpriced sneakers as a kid. the other guy made me scared of old men.

[Himu]

on something that should be illegal I totally agree though, the Stern administration is at least as responsible as Jordan is for the landscape of basketball today. I'd say you really can't understand one without the other.

Throw in Nike, too.

[TVC15]

Hmmm, maybe Jordan is just as bad as Jackson when it comes to iniquity.

Jackson: raped a few dozen kids
Jordan: Sweatshop-enslaved millions of children

[nudemacusers]

yes, but since the children were forced into making shoes for jordan, they were out of the reach of jackson's bleached tentacles.

#dualities

[tiesto]

Gonna go with Jackson... hell around NY the basketball love pales in comparison to the baseball/football love. Don't know how different it is in the rest of the country.

[Phoenix Dark]

Bo was the best Jackson

[Eel O'Brian]

I'd say Jackson. He maintained a near-constant public presence throughout his life, via his music or his weirdness. Excepting Elvis, I don't think there's been any other pop culture figure with that kind of worldwide notoriety.

[Positive Touch]

is Elvis that big outside of the u.s.? I'd have to think that mj's popularity easily eclipses his.

[Phoenix Dark]

is Elvis that big outside of the u.s.? I'd have to think that mj's popularity easily eclipses his.

well he created rock n roll so sure

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[El Babua]

When I first came to America as a wee three year old, my cousin used to play Michael Jackson tapes all the time. To the point where he was the first artist I knew by name. There wasn't much bball discussion in that household other than my aforementioned cousin going gaga over the new phenom Shaq.

It wasn't until we moved out on our own to FL and I started watching basketball on my own did I know who Jordan was. But all the friends I had loved him even though most of them didn't know anything about basketball other than him. Space Jam was a fucking genius move brehs. Michael Jackson was pretty much out of the young youth's mindspace by that point.

So I'll say for late 70's - late 80's kids, it was Jackson, afterwards Jordan all the way.

[Eel O'Brian]

is Elvis that big outside of the u.s.? I'd have to think that mj's popularity easily eclipses his.

He was in European countries, for sure. Even The Beatles marked out when they had the chance to finally meet him. This is all a generation or so before MJ, and by his prime time TV/cable was so prevalent that yeah, he was more well-known worldwide. For about a decade between the mid50s/60s, though, Elvis was pretty much untouchable.