US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[Nola]

 On second thought maybe I’ll stick to it still being Pap.

[etiolate]

Bannon made Breitbart into Trump News and then gets ditched by both mostly because nobody likes him.

[Nola]

Nah, it’s simply because he lost the trust of the cult of personality and that threatened the business and the Mercer’s money clearly sees more value in taking Trump’s side over defending Bannon.

[Mandark]

WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.

[Skullfuckers Anonymous]

Pizzagate confirmed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/950793527084093442

[Steve Contra]

Kind of crazy to think that a multi-generational new york real estate development company might be involved in some shady shit, but here we are.

[benjipwns]

WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.

Are you suggesting that they faked the earthquake as part of getting into the country for 9/11?

[Steve Contra]

Also the like button disappeared for me a while back. Like this post to demand the mods fix it.

[shosta]

It's best to disregard the Bore "skeptics." I mean, they are willing to disregard that the POTUS penned a fake statement about Donald Jr's meeting with Veselnitskaya. If you listen to Benji he obstructed justice merely for shits and giggles   

I never mentioned the dossier before but intelligence is not infallible. I don't doubt that someone has been killed because of its publication. Russia has killed a staggering number of its nationals overseas in the past 3 years. I also don't doubt that Russia had "compromising" information about Trump with prostitutes in Russia. By had, I do mean past tense: after the pussy tape it's pretty obvious that Trump is immune to these kinds of scandals.

It could be that they were feeding him intelligence for "5 years". And it could be that they had damaging information on Hillary Clinton. But I didn't hear about any damaging information dumps on Hillary during the election. And if they'd been talking to him for 5 years, again, why do people point to Flynn, and then Papadopoulos, and all these other people around him. Most of the reporting done on this has alluded very strongly to Trump being slowly intersected by Russian intelligence efforts to communicate with him. And even with this baseline premise they can't get a coherent narrative together and just cash in on Trump hysteria. As etiolate would say: lay out the corkboards.

I'm willing to believe that any number of allegations in the dossier are true. But when, taken as a whole, none of the reporting last year or the last half of 2016 was coherent in the way that is necessary for a criminal conspiracy to unfold, don't blame me or anyone for being a bit skeptical of any charge laid out against Trump on this topic.

Not to mention the crime is still a mystery.

[Mandark]

AFAIK the stuff that has come out wasn't in the dossier, and the stuff in the dossier hasn't been confirmed.

[Nola]

Who is this “they” fella everyone keeps talking about?

The only person I have seen assert a definitive narrative around here has ironically been etoilet. (Most)Everyone else seems open to a wide range of explanations and possibilities of what this investigation will turn up.

[I'm a Puppy!]

they = Seth.....RICH

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seth Rich

[close]

[Steve Contra]

they = Seth.....RICH

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seth Rich

[close]

Who?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

<_<

spoiler (click to show/hide)

>_>

[close]

[close]

[Mupepe]

WH is revoking protected status for an estimated 200,000 El Salvadorans in the country.

Since this status goes back to the 2001 earthquake, lots of these people have been here well over a decade. Cool. Great.

Most of my wife’s family that’s legal 

[etiolate]

By far the greatest thing to come out of the Oprah Presidency hooplah:

https://inhabitat.com/ecouterre/oprah-draws-criticism-for-endorsing-face-cream-made-from-foreskins/

I kind of want to buy this just so whenever anyone says I look young for my age, I can respond with "the secret is baby dicks."

[benjipwns]

Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?

[close]

[benjipwns]

Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?

[close]

[Mandark]

even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred

oh?

[zomgee]

Not to discount that people can't be concerned about more than one thing at a time but I just lament the feeding frenzy mentality over something of which nobody who seems to follow every tweet storm or minor detail of dudes meeting dudes even takes the time to hypothetically allege the crime that is supposed to have occurred. Even the speculation is garbage about how there could be further speculation in the future. We can't even get the collusion allegation hooked up!

It feels like the endless desire for THE ONE RING TO END TRUMP has been going on for two and a half years now. Then we move onto the next one.

Meanwhile, how many active criminal conspiracies are ongoing involving the Trump Administration? Either that they inherited or started. Indictments of former Trump lackeys for perjury are so far afield of affecting any of that.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

And what about the criminal conspiracy THAT IS THE STATE ITSELF HUH?!?

[close]

I wonder sometimes if this is just the mirror image of the desperation that the talking points right used while Obama was president. Every single article listed on /r/politics is some sort of impeachable offense, mental issue which demands removal from office, illegal use of power, financial impropriety which will surely get the entire family arrested next week, and so on.

[zomgee]

#IamSethRich

[benjipwns]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

[benjipwns]

I wonder sometimes if this is just the mirror image of the desperation that the talking points right used while Obama was president. Every single article listed on /r/politics is some sort of impeachable offense, mental issue which demands removal from office, illegal use of power, financial impropriety which will surely get the entire family arrested next week, and so on.

For some it's a kind of defense mechanism that by denying the legitimacy that somehow makes everything better. I knew people who always acted like the worst thing about W. was "selected, not elected" rather than you know, all the stuff he did in office.

Hell, I'd still see on GAF from time to time people who couldn't take mentions of him without "correcting the record" about how he stole the office and was never actually elected.

Rather than actually asking the important questions like who authorized a handful of WHITE MEN 230 years ago to decide we even have something called a President who can enforce and enact laws over us without our prior approval?!? Some due process I say!

[Nola]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.

My background is the ever useful field of economics, not criminal law, so I'll leave it up to actual legal experts to fill that in. But I will say, if following that and other incidents, a person, say the president, knowingly knew of such arrangements or perceived criminal exposure to people he cared about, did something like run around trying to obstruct an investigation looking into those crimes, even going so far as to admit the motive on national TV, there is a good chance that president is setting the grounds for credible accusations of abuse of power and obstruction of justice for the political process that was designed by the founders to address that.


And I think all of that, plus the numerous other suspicious behavior and events, warrants a thorough investigation of the Trump campaign. And if there are some hyper-partisans, who's fever dreams get the best of them, I guess I don't really care all that much. And if people get too obsessed with he followers of the investigation that it influences their thoughts on the actual investigation, I kind of see that as a personal failing on that individual's part, no offense.

[benjipwns]

I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.

Are you talking about John Podesta's e-mails?

[Steve Contra]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

You seem genuinely confused as to the nefarious possibilities of what could be uinvolved in influencing an election. Have you ever heard of the CIA? If not I suggest a quick look.

[Nola]

I think the part where that communication may have involved the acquisition or coordinated dissemination of knowingly criminally acquired private information, perhaps with an implied quid-pro-quo, is a piece of context that you might of left out.

Are you talking about John Podesta's e-mails?

Sure, amongst the other things Seth Rich Ocean's 11'd out of the country before the Clinton's gunned him down in cold blood before he could escape to the patriotic Russians that just wanted to help Trump MAGA by exposing Hillary's criminal behavior that cost Bernie Sanders the primary.

[benjipwns]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

You seem genuinely confused as to the nefarious possibilities of what could be uinvolved in influencing an election. Have you ever heard of the CIA? If not I suggest a quick look.

While I believe that Obama and his administration played a role in the outcome of the 2016 election, I'm skeptical as to the extent to which he involved the CIA.

[Mandark]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries.

oh

[shosta]

If "influencing an election" is a crime then Obama Girl should be put in prison and never see the light of day again.

[kingv]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

[shosta]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

[benjipwns]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

[Mandark]

The publicly available information, with the gaps filled in by Trump family statements taken at face value, show no criminal activity.

Touché.

[shosta]

Looking up all these old debates and speeches led me to this snippet of John Kerry speaking at the Congress of Vienna:

Kerry's view, on the other hand, suggests that it is the very premise of civilized states, rather than any one ideology, that is under attack. And no one state, acting alone, can possibly have much impact on the threat, because terrorists will always be able to move around, shelter their money and connect in cyberspace; there are no capitals for a superpower like the United States to bomb, no ambassadors to recall, no economies to sanction. The U.S. military searches for bin Laden, the Russians hunt for the Chechen terrorist Shamil Basayev and the Israelis fire missiles at Hamas bomb makers; in Kerry's world, these disparate terrorist elements make up a loosely affiliated network of diabolical villains, more connected to one another by tactics and ideology than they are to any one state sponsor. The conflict, in Kerry's formulation, pits the forces of order versus the forces of chaos, and only a unified community of nations can ensure that order prevails.

[benjipwns]

Since it was specifically mentioned on the last page, maybe I can do a little to clear up my positioning here and where my skepticism and nonchalance lies on a variety of things. I mentioned this before but I find it really strange that it's somehow beyond the pale for a presidential candidate to discuss foreign policy changes privately, when he or she is spending a lot of their time doing it publicly. Just to take Obama, he not only was conducting foreign policy as both President and Senator (except that he didn't show up amirite Sean Hannity) but advocating for extensive changes in foreign policy from the Bush Administration in debates on and on the stump and so on.

There's an inherent quid-pro-quo in establishing better relations, or getting out of conflicts like Vietnam or Iraq. And it's a two-way street, both for not only American candidates, but foreign ones too. Not to mention both parties in our system.

To step back in hopes of clearing up my view some, lots of people accuse Nixon of having committed treason in 1968 by messing with the Paris Peace Talks. Aside from any problems with the factual record (like Kissinger's role and the fact that he was expected to join a Humphrey administration as well) there's the problem of LBJ being able to direct foreign policy to elect Humphrey and this somehow being fine. All while the candidates are making public statements, earlier in that same election you had the revolt against LBJ by McCarthy and RFK. In 1964, LBJ covered up the Gulf of Tonkin while working with the media to portray Goldwater as eager to get involved in Vietnam and drop nuclear weapons on it.

I know I'm losing the plot here, but that's actually the point. This whole assumption about foreign policy and foreign meddling in elections is kinda essential to the whole shebang. Especially considering the role of the Presidency.

That's the grander argument being made and it makes no sense to be applied solely to Donald Trump's campaign nor solely to Russia in just this election. Especially considering how that nation dominated our politics for 70 years.

If we're talking about John Podesta's e-mails, my issue is that the timelines don't add up and the whole plot makes no sense.

I guess I need to reiterate that I don't claim any innocence on Trump's part merely that the current propositions make no sense and/or only are relevant if you start constructing massive conspiracy theories on top like in the Uranium One blockbuster scandal, nor would I care to deny theories about his companies having business deals that wind up involved with criminals Russian or otherwise, or as Steve Contra better put it above:

Kind of crazy to think that a multi-generational new york real estate development company might be involved in some shady shit, but here we are.

There's also a firm layer of skepticism in Donald Trump himself here, I've seen the guy tune out things happening in front of him and construct his own reality to replace it. His relationship with someone like Omarosa is a perfect example of how others can take advantage of him for their own ends. Hell, Bannon is. And those are losers operating for personal gain. I don't think any real serious masterminds are going to look at Trump, his sons, his organization and say "yep, these are totally people we should collude with on regarding the largest media spectacle of its age" to where I should assume continued investigations are going to find anything new and in increasingly amazing fashion.

That's part of why I don't think an obstruction of justice charge would ever be brought by someone who wants to be good at their job like Mueller. It seems entirely plausible that Trump is completely clueless and would back into a charge like that. I mean, the guy can't even put out the Fake News Awards on time and it's making us all get testy and snipe at each other instead of our normal lovemaking!

Regarding any SECRET massive information hiding in the bowels of the FBI that will blow this whole thing open any day now when the rest of us are finally made privy to it after three years, I find that hard to wait in anticipation for when we're already getting the personal text messages of the staff. Not to mention that Trump hasn't tweeted about it.

[agrajag]

Ignorance is not an excuse. If the guy obstructed justice, wittingly or unwittingly he needs to face the consequences.

[benjipwns]

The problem in the Mueller case is that there may be no crime. That's literally part of his commission, to determine if any crimes were committed, it's totally up to him.

[kingv]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

I do think this article is a good example of what benji is talking about above. Like the headline says one thing, but the article doesn’t really warrant the headline. I do think it’s newsworthy, but doesn’t rate the front page hyperbolic headline they gave it.

That said, I think you both are nuts for giving trump the benefit of the doubt and are willfully ignoring or downplaying some pieces of information that at least suggest that a crime may have been committed, (apart from the obstruction of justice which is pretty much proven with publically available evidence.

[agrajag]

The problem in the Mueller case is that there may be no crime. That's literally part of his commission, to determine if any crimes were committed, it's totally up to him.

And I am ok with waiting and seeing where his findings lead. You and Shostakovitch are so hell-bent on appearing impartial and reasonable you end up looking the opposite.

[benjipwns]

But I don't disagree with you on the former, I'm just responding to posts and such that act like every little piece of news if you read it with a suggestion and speculation that heads in one direction is the start of a tsunami that washes away Trump and the Republican Party forever when basically all of it has been totally unrelated to the 2016 election. The supposed timeframe of this grand conspiracy.

I guess I'll just refrain from commenting at all on posts here about the case until Mueller issues his final report. (This is the one thing he's actually legally required to do, I am not, in this instance, being snarky about it being all that he'll do.)

[Mandark]

posts and such that act like every little piece of news if you read it with a suggestion and speculation that heads in one direction

those are your posts, my man

[agrajag]

No don't stop sharing your views. I am far from an arbitrer of what's acceptable to post or not. I just think you try to paint some of us as ridiculous when we are asking fair questions. Like you say there's no crime in campaigns communicating with other countries. And I say sure, but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow.

And if I were to guess, my personal analysis is that Trumpnis a profoundly ignorant person. By my estimation, Russia views him as a useful idiot. I don't believe anyone is arguing that he personally made quid pro quo deals with Russian operatives. But it seems like everyone around him, in his campaign, had shady dealings with people tied to Kremlin. And if he had any kind of knowledge of it, he is complicit. And his ignorance, lack of caring and stupidity is not a shield.

[benjipwns]

but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow

This is the exact disconnect I'm talking about, I don't assume any of these premises are necessarily facts. And they have to be established as such or else we're never going to get rid of Trump except through an election, a term-limit or death.

I don't know the amount of communcation the Trump campaign had with Russian officials and how it compares to other campaigns and their contacts with foreign officials. Nor the Trump campaigns communication with other foreign officials.

I don't know that Russia should inherently be presumed to be a hostile or enemy nation let alone treated as one presumptively. Nor that they desired the election of Trump any more than they would have Obama in 2012. I mean this from a non-strategic stand-point where you assume all nations are hostile actors. Especially Canada. Definitely Canada.

And if their best shot at throwing an American Presidential election was Facebook posts, twitter bots and releasing ten month old John Podesta e-mails that had nothing in them I start to question their operational competence as well considering all the actual options that are on the table. (They almost got her with the Pneumonia but she fought that off...or more likely, they already had the double ready to go expecting it. Since it's the kind of thing they would do to their political foes.)

No don't stop sharing your views

Nah, it's worth less than standard masturbatory garbage that doesn't add anything to the discussion and just perpetuates the nonsense instead.

[kingv]

I also think it’s highly likely that Trump was just eating fucking cheeseburgers and yelling at Hope Hicks for forgetting the machine, acting like cable news was interactive, and generally acting like he has early dementia while like 1/4 of the people in his campaign were on the Russian dole. And vaguely this just continued into the Presidency to some degree.

That said, if his campaign collaborated in any way with the hack on the DNC/Podesta/whatever, whether that’s asking for it, using the information prior to it being public, coordinating with where and how to leak it, or even being aware that it occurred or was going to occur outside of “I read it in the paper/saw on fox and friends/etc” then a crime occurred.

A reasonable person can expect that something in the above might have happened, because Papa-D basically alluded to this with the Aussie dude in like May of 2016, and then turned states witness like a year later.

If any of that is proven, then its sort of immaterial whether or not Trump committed the crime, because he then tried to orchestrate a coverup and plainly tried to obstruct the investigation on multiple occasions. This scenario is similar to Nixon, who did not order the watergate break in, but tried to cover it up anyway.

IMO, this makes way more sense than the idea that Trump was too smart to get into trouble with the Russians, yet not smart enough to not obstruct justice for an investigation of crimes he was innocent of (which is still a crime anyway).  Maybe it makes sense if he was instead trying to hide a bunch of other unrelated pre campaign crimes, like money laundering, that he was afraid would come to light as a result of any increased scrutiny.

[agrajag]

damn you're so sensitive

[Assimilate]

Could you imagine the meltdowns people would have if Trump won again?

Part of me wants to see it 

[agrajag]

Most of you is dumbass.

[benjipwns]

I should correct an impression I gave above, as I realized I may have gave the impression that I would accept Mueller's report as some kind of finality. That's a straight up lie and I should have seen to be honest. I see no reason to accept a report that comes back as a summary of things 95% of which we knew about prior and brings no charges related to the 2016 election. Just useless bureaucratic churn and whitewash like the Rockefeller or 9/11 Commission or so on. So in reality I can't see there to be any future reason at all for me to comment on the case further other than said irritating masturbation regarding minutiae.

Maybe it makes sense if he was instead trying to hide a bunch of other unrelated pre campaign crimes, like money laundering, that he was afraid would come to light as a result of any increased scrutiny.

This has always been closer to my position than Trump never anything did untoward or is just a buffoon.

Though even there I prefer the stupid explanation. Like why Trump wouldn't release his taxes, I'm assuming it's less because of anything nefarious hidden in there than the simple fact it would show he's not as wealthy/successful as he claims.

Nixon didn't order the second Watergate break-in when they got caught due to bad tape (Hunt strongly suggested that was Liddy personally trying to fix something he had botched prior), but he did order a whole bunch of the rest of CREEPs activities and is on the tapes ordering things even more illegal but Halderman always kiboshed them as Nixon would forget about it after ranting.

And the whole reason Nixon installed the automatic tape recording system was because he wanted protection against what he expected to be in Kissinger's memoirs.

[thehunter116]

It's not to my knowledge de facto illegal for Americans to communicate with people from other countries. Which is usually what I am told is the crime that President of the United States Donald J. Trump and nasty woman Crooked Hillary committed.

Actually Trump's crime his corroborating and using illegally stolen information of a domestic political opponent from a foreign government, which by definition is espionage as well as nefarious and dubious relationships with said government.

However this is all conjecture until Mueller is finished. Obstruction of justice looks likely though. 

[thehunter116]

Here’s your quo:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-house-official-floated-withdrawing-us-forces-to-please-putin?ref=home



Not really... but interesting.

"Well, we're going to hit the reset button and start fresh because clearly the Obama administration believes that there are a number of important areas to discuss with the Russians. We're just at the beginning of this discussion, but I'm looking forward to it. "

"The basis for my discussion began with this simple premise, that Russia and the United States must establish a new relationship beyond that of the old cold war mentality. The cold war said loud and clear that we're opponents and that we bring the peace through the ability for each of us to destroy each other. Friends don't destroy each other."

"Russia is important to America. Our economies are connected. We share values, interests and friendship. We share security interests and heavy security responsibilities."

"...to further reduce tensions, I am directing that all United States strategic bombers immediately standdown from their alert posture."

"I believe that 1984 finds the United States in the strongest position in years to establish a constructive and realistic working relationship with the Soviet Union. We've come a long way since the decade of the 70's, years when the United States seemed filled with self-doubt and neglected its defenses while the Soviet Union increased its military might and sought to expand its influence by armed forces and threat. "

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

[benjipwns]

shit i think i linked to one of the podesta e-mails and have definitely described the contents of them

[thehunter116]

No don't stop sharing your views. I am far from an arbitrer of what's acceptable to post or not. I just think you try to paint some of us as ridiculous when we are asking fair questions. Like you say there's no crime in campaigns communicating with other countries. And I say sure, but communicating an extraordinary amount with a hostile nation that was at the time actively trying to throw the election in your favor is going to raise my eyebrow.

And if I were to guess, my personal analysis is that Trumpnis a profoundly ignorant person. By my estimation, Russia views him as a useful idiot. I don't believe anyone is arguing that he personally made quid pro quo deals with Russian operatives. But it seems like everyone around him, in his campaign, had shady dealings with people tied to Kremlin. And if he had any kind of knowledge of it, he is complicit. And his ignorance, lack of caring and stupidity is not a shield.

Bingo.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think Trump is some grand mastermind. He's an idiotic trust fund kid with dementia in over his head. That is still no excuse for so many illegal, corrupt actions within his own family let alone administration; specifically dealing with Russia. I do think he has some criminal acts involving Russia but not directly involved with Russian 2016 election meddling. I think he knew the basics but that's at most what he was in the know about.

That said he'd  still be guilty of conspiracy and espionage. If I am the get away driver in a robbery and my accomplice shoots and kills the cashier I am now an accessory to 2nd degree murder and can be charged with similar jail time. Same thing applies to all those around him; they clearly knew what they were doing and thus he is guilty by association and part of the "conspiracy" (which is legal definition of collusion). Alas we must wait and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. However, anyone with basic knowledge and two eyes can see where this is likely headed.

Watergate 2.0: Bigger. Bolder. More Russian.

[thehunter116]

shit i think i linked to one of the podesta e-mails and have definitely described the contents of them

Are you an elected official of 2016 and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

[benjipwns]

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

didn't they though?!?

In the runup to the 2012 US presidential election in November, English-language channel RT America -created and financed by the Russian Government and part of Russian Government-sponsored RT TV (see textbox 1) -- intensified its usually critical coverage of the United States. The channel portrayed the US electoral process as undemocratic and featured calls by US protesters for the public to rise up and "take this government back."

RT introduced two new shows -- "Breaking the Set" on 4 September and "Truthseeker" on 2 November -- both overwhelmingly focused on criticism of US and Western governments as well as the promotion of radical discontent.

...

RT aired a documentary about the Occupy Wall Street movement on 1, 2, and 4 November. RT framed the movement as a fight against "the ruling class" and described the current US political system as corrupt and dominated by corporations.

...

RT has also focused on criticism of the US economic system, US currency policy, alleged Wall Street greed, and the US national debt. Some of RT's hosts have compared the United States to Imperial Rome and have predicted that government corruption and "corporate greed" will lead to US financial collapse (RT, 31 October, 4 November).

...

RT runs anti-fracking programming, highlighting environmental issues and the impacts on public health.

You didn't build that, the Kremlin did.

Long-time Russian front organization condemns "corporate greed":


Coordinated attack on prominent Russian opponent and American patriot Mitt Romney by Obama White House:

Obama senior political strategist David Axelrod tied Mitt Romney to corporate greed on Tuesday as the president’s reelection campaign sought to play to the surging Occupy Wall Street protests.

“I think there’s some question as to what his core convictions are,” Axelrod said Tuesday on "Morning Joe." “I think, also, he says he represents business, but he really represents the Wall Street side of business in ways — you know, he stripped down companies and outsourced jobs in ways that I think reflect people’s concerns about the economy.”

...

Axelrod suggested the president wants to align himself with the concerns of those protesting Wall Street

And who was in office, having regular communications with the Russians during the 2016 elections that once again handed an L to his Clinton enemies? Barack Hussein Obama. Susan Rice. LORETTA LYNCH. JAMES COMEY.

All in retaliation for her knee-capping Bernie I suspect.

[thehunter116]

I mean...Russia hadn't directly involved itself in our elections at the time helping Obama so...

didn't they though?!?

In the runup to the 2012 US presidential election in November, English-language channel RT America -created and financed by the Russian Government and part of Russian Government-sponsored RT TV (see textbox 1) -- intensified its usually critical coverage of the United States. The channel portrayed the US electoral process as undemocratic and featured calls by US protesters for the public to rise up and "take this government back."

RT introduced two new shows -- "Breaking the Set" on 4 September and "Truthseeker" on 2 November -- both overwhelmingly focused on criticism of US and Western governments as well as the promotion of radical discontent.

...

RT aired a documentary about the Occupy Wall Street movement on 1, 2, and 4 November. RT framed the movement as a fight against "the ruling class" and described the current US political system as corrupt and dominated by corporations.

...

RT has also focused on criticism of the US economic system, US currency policy, alleged Wall Street greed, and the US national debt. Some of RT's hosts have compared the United States to Imperial Rome and have predicted that government corruption and "corporate greed" will lead to US financial collapse (RT, 31 October, 4 November).

...

RT runs anti-fracking programming, highlighting environmental issues and the impacts on public health.

You didn't build that, the Kremlin did.

Long-time Russian front organization condemns "corporate greed":


Coordinated attack on prominent Russian opponent and American patriot Mitt Romney by Obama White House:

Obama senior political strategist David Axelrod tied Mitt Romney to corporate greed on Tuesday as the president’s reelection campaign sought to play to the surging Occupy Wall Street protests.

“I think there’s some question as to what his core convictions are,” Axelrod said Tuesday on "Morning Joe." “I think, also, he says he represents business, but he really represents the Wall Street side of business in ways — you know, he stripped down companies and outsourced jobs in ways that I think reflect people’s concerns about the economy.”

...

Axelrod suggested the president wants to align himself with the concerns of those protesting Wall Street

And who was in office, having regular communications with the Russians during the 2016 elections that once again handed an L to his Clinton enemies? Barack Hussein Obama. Susan Rice. LORETTA LYNCH. JAMES COMEY.

All in retaliation for her knee-capping Bernie I suspect.

I see nothing criminal here.

Again if this was just RT or Pac ads this would be a nothingburger. What happened with the DNC was watergate but virtual.

With foreign actors.

[agrajag]

I do think Trump has ties to Russian mob, is tied up in money laundering schemes, etc. The Mueller investigation looks like it has a broad scope, so I look forward to any and all of his illegal activities being uncovered 

[Trent Dole]

Could you imagine the meltdowns people would have if Drumpf won again?

Part of me wants to see it 

If Hill runs again he wins again, popular vote this time too.

[benjipwns]

Are you an elected official of 2016

Neither Trump nor Hillary were so I don't think this matters does it?

and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

Probably under the current set of federal and state laws. But actually I just wanted to point out that his e-mails were snatched in March 2016, near the end of an effort the DNI/CIA/FBI report said started in July 2015. I don't think Wikileaks has stated when they received them?

[thehunter116]

Are you an elected official of 2016

Neither Trump nor Hillary were so I don't think this matters does it?

and/or did you knowingly partake in a criminal conspiracy to acquire said emails?

Probably under the current set of federal and state laws. But actually I just wanted to point out that his e-mails were snatched in March 2016, near the end of an effort the DNI/CIA/FBI report said started in July 2015. I don't think Wikileaks has stated when they received them?

Benji c'mon man.

They've acknowledged Russia was the ones responsible for the hack.

[benjipwns]

huh? what are you responding to in that post with this? where was it started otherwise?

Again if this was just RT or Pac ads this would be a nothingburger. What happened with the DNC was watergate but virtual.

With foreign actors.

see it's stuff like this, like what do you even mean by it's "Watergate" because that encompasses an endless amount of directions you could head in with the comparison, not to mention "Watergate" had three dudes born in Cuba involved and helped the Democrats stop Nixon from defeating Communism in Vietnam (and then there's the foreign cash in Nixon's presidential campaigns)

we're never going to find Seth Rich's killer following this method