Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 2965904 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13800 on: January 27, 2018, 07:00:01 PM »
The dutch story is more claims without evidence. You may want to check the other dutch sources and the fact that it may be propaganda for a new anti-privacy surveillance bill in the Netherlands.

There's some pieces critical of the claim, one pointing towards the idiocy Russia would require to put a hacker group in a university after it had been revealed that the NSA was targeting foreign universities.

But you just have to look at the claim that the Dutch told the US about it and nothing was done to stop it for two years. Kind of suspect to just let it go on. 

I'm not placing faith in deep state claims without evidence, and the fact that this group in the Netherlands was influenced by the NSA, is trying to get a bill passed, and got their story sprung around the net quickly... raises alarms. We've been down that road. What is the claim? That Russia hacked the DNC. We've heard that claim and I asked for evidence, but instead I get the same claim from anon US and Dutch sources? Recognize a shell game when you come across one

I do appreciate that kingv laid out his corkboard, including Wiki as a Russian truth launderer.  Because the claim is that what the DNC was doing got Trump elected, which is a shoot the messenger PR spin. (When you can't even properly ID the messenger lul.)

I would read the article where it specifically said that the Dutch warned about the dnc hack in April 2016, and the 2015 hack was about a hack into the state department.

Hoisted by your own distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.

Actually, you are half right. Cozy bear hacked dnc in 2015 and then again in 2016.

I read the article, son. It began in 2014. The point is that their warnings were somehow not heard or heeded. For two years. That this went on long enough for them to steal docs over a period of time is the suspect part.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13801 on: January 27, 2018, 07:02:23 PM »
The dutch story is more claims without evidence. You may want to check the other dutch sources and the fact that it may be propaganda for a new anti-privacy surveillance bill in the Netherlands.

There's some pieces critical of the claim, one pointing towards the idiocy Russia would require to put a hacker group in a university after it had been revealed that the NSA was targeting foreign universities.

But you just have to look at the claim that the Dutch told the US about it and nothing was done to stop it for two years. Kind of suspect to just let it go on. 

I'm not placing faith in deep state claims without evidence, and the fact that this group in the Netherlands was influenced by the NSA, is trying to get a bill passed, and got their story sprung around the net quickly... raises alarms. We've been down that road. What is the claim? That Russia hacked the DNC. We've heard that claim and I asked for evidence, but instead I get the same claim from anon US and Dutch sources? Recognize a shell game when you come across one

I do appreciate that kingv laid out his corkboard, including Wiki as a Russian truth launderer.  Because the claim is that what the DNC was doing got Trump elected, which is a shoot the messenger PR spin. (When you can't even properly ID the messenger lul.)

I would read the article where it specifically said that the Dutch warned about the dnc hack in April 2016, and the 2015 hack was about a hack into the state department.

Hoisted by your own distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.

Actually, you are half right. Cozy bear hacked dnc in 2015 and then again in 2016.

I read the article, son. It began in 2014. The point is that their warnings were somehow not heard or heeded. For two years. That this went on long enough for them to steal docs over a period of time is the suspect part.

You think it's suspect this was going on for 2 years when we let 1000s die in LA during Katrina because it wasn't "Cost effective".

Brah negligence is easily explained.

Nintex

  • Boy's Club President
  • Senior Member
🤴

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13803 on: January 27, 2018, 07:04:01 PM »
The dutch story is more claims without evidence. You may want to check the other dutch sources and the fact that it may be propaganda for a new anti-privacy surveillance bill in the Netherlands.

There's some pieces critical of the claim, one pointing towards the idiocy Russia would require to put a hacker group in a university after it had been revealed that the NSA was targeting foreign universities.

But you just have to look at the claim that the Dutch told the US about it and nothing was done to stop it for two years. Kind of suspect to just let it go on. 

I'm not placing faith in deep state claims without evidence, and the fact that this group in the Netherlands was influenced by the NSA, is trying to get a bill passed, and got their story sprung around the net quickly... raises alarms. We've been down that road. What is the claim? That Russia hacked the DNC. We've heard that claim and I asked for evidence, but instead I get the same claim from anon US and Dutch sources? Recognize a shell game when you come across one

I do appreciate that kingv laid out his corkboard, including Wiki as a Russian truth launderer.  Because the claim is that what the DNC was doing got Trump elected, which is a shoot the messenger PR spin. (When you can't even properly ID the messenger lul.)

I would read the article where it specifically said that the Dutch warned about the dnc hack in April 2016, and the 2015 hack was about a hack into the state department.

Hoisted by your own distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.

Actually, you are half right. Cozy bear hacked dnc in 2015 and then again in 2016.

I read the article, son. It began in 2014. The point is that their warnings were somehow not heard or heeded. For two years. That this went on long enough for them to steal docs over a period of time is the suspect part.

How do you know their warnings were not heard nor heeded?

The US doesn’t work for the Dutch, and has no responsibility to tell them what they did or didn’t do in response.

This is also the same US intelligence agency told about 9/11 in advance....

D3RANG3D

  • The Bore's Like Bot™
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13804 on: January 27, 2018, 07:04:18 PM »
(He's Bi)

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13805 on: January 27, 2018, 07:07:01 PM »
You do realize that you're spinning off of the main point stated at the very start of my reply.

Also, the russian bots (which we should have verified independently if we have not) were also tweeting both sides of #BLM back and forth, creating their own fights.

This is trolling, but its also the same divisive stuff that's been going on for decades. From the USSR times. It's not new. It might be some trolls with bots or it might be the same old shit. Even the Bloomberg article that guy cites calls the usage as "creating discord".

« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 07:11:27 PM by etiolate »

benjipwns

  • Senior Member

Nintex

  • Boy's Club President
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13807 on: January 27, 2018, 07:28:03 PM »
Has Trump lost weight or is that his body double  :doge
🤴

team filler

  • filler
  • filler
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13808 on: January 27, 2018, 07:45:13 PM »
t h i c c bois
*****

Nintex

  • Boy's Club President
  • Senior Member
🤴

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13810 on: January 27, 2018, 08:22:54 PM »
Remember when those stories came out about how they were going to drop a billion on the 2016 race.

And then they essentially sat it out (less than $25 million combined on contributions and lobbying in the cycle) when they saw the clusterfuck that was the Republican primaries. And even stopped given their token amounts to the GOP when Trump became the nominee.

That article even reads like the ones I remember from three years ago. THE BIGGEST MEETING, SECRETIVE, THE KOCH NETWORK, etc.

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13811 on: January 27, 2018, 08:24:41 PM »
Quote
Also Saturday, the Koch network, whose policies are clearly conservative but lean libertarian, lauded Trump for the framework he introduced to provide legal status to the "Dreamers," illegal immigrants brought to the U.S. as young children by their parents through no fault of their own.

“Immigrants are essential to the success of our country and addressing the plight of the dreamers is a top priority for this Network. We are committed to working with Congress and the White House to find a solution that does this without arbitrarily reducing the number of people who come here to contribute,” Brian Hooks, co-chairman of Koch's Seminar Network, said in a statement.

The Koch group was pleased to see Trump put legalization on the table for the full population of Dreamers. But it is concerned about the parts of the president's framework that propose reducing legal immigration significantly and possibly abolish "chain migration," also known as "family reunification."

“We applaud the president for taking this important step towards a bipartisan compromise that delivers enhanced security for our nation and permanent legal status for 1.8 million Dreamers, ensuring they have the legal certainty to plan their lives and increase their contributions to America," Daniel Garza, president of the Koch group, The LIBRE Initiative, said in a statement.

"That said, we cannot support arbitrary cuts to future legal immigration levels. We welcome a debate about whether our current legal immigration policy properly balances family and skills-based migration. But that broad debate should not distract from the immediate goal of providing certainty to Dreamers and enhancing security," Garza added.
:noooo but but all the cool countries!!

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13812 on: January 27, 2018, 08:29:42 PM »
Quote
The Koch Brothers are launching a pilot program to help prisoners reintegrate back into society.

Alongside the Texas Public Policy Foundation, the Koch network is pouring $4 million into Safe Streets and Second Chances—an initiative that will study criminal rehabilitation programs in Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Pennsylvania. Each state will receive $1 million in funding for a trial experiment on 1,000 prisoners intended to prepare them for the workforce.

“Over 95 percent of people who are incarcerated will eventually be released, so it’s in everyone’s best interests to make sure that these individuals are better when they leave prison than before they went in,” Koch Industries executive Mark Holden said in a statement.

In addition to job training, prisoners will receive counseling and treatment for drug addiction.
holy shit, these bastards, does Jeff Sessions know about this?!?

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13813 on: January 27, 2018, 08:43:46 PM »
You do realize that you're spinning off of the main point stated at the very start of my reply.

Also, the russian bots (which we should have verified independently if we have not) were also tweeting both sides of #BLM back and forth, creating their own fights.

This is trolling, but its also the same divisive stuff that's been going on for decades. From the USSR times. It's not new. It might be some trolls with bots or it might be the same old shit. Even the Bloomberg article that guy cites calls the usage as "creating discord".

The rest of your post isn’t really based on anything. It’s just dissembling that you think it’s “fake news” without any concrete evidence to argue about.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13814 on: January 27, 2018, 08:47:26 PM »
Quote
The Koch Brothers are launching a pilot program to help prisoners reintegrate back into society.

Alongside the Texas Public Policy Foundation, the Koch network is pouring $4 million into Safe Streets and Second Chances—an initiative that will study criminal rehabilitation programs in Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Pennsylvania. Each state will receive $1 million in funding for a trial experiment on 1,000 prisoners intended to prepare them for the workforce.

“Over 95 percent of people who are incarcerated will eventually be released, so it’s in everyone’s best interests to make sure that these individuals are better when they leave prison than before they went in,” Koch Industries executive Mark Holden said in a statement.

In addition to job training, prisoners will receive counseling and treatment for drug addiction.
holy shit, these bastards, does Jeff Sessions know about this?!?

This shouldn’t really be surprising to anybody... but Koch’s actually are pretty good on prisoner reform and felons rights issues. One of the few things I agree with them on.

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13815 on: January 27, 2018, 08:48:46 PM »
Quote
The Koch Brothers are launching a pilot program to help prisoners reintegrate back into society.

Alongside the Texas Public Policy Foundation, the Koch network is pouring $4 million into Safe Streets and Second Chances—an initiative that will study criminal rehabilitation programs in Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Pennsylvania. Each state will receive $1 million in funding for a trial experiment on 1,000 prisoners intended to prepare them for the workforce.

“Over 95 percent of people who are incarcerated will eventually be released, so it’s in everyone’s best interests to make sure that these individuals are better when they leave prison than before they went in,” Koch Industries executive Mark Holden said in a statement.

In addition to job training, prisoners will receive counseling and treatment for drug addiction.
holy shit, these bastards, does Jeff Sessions know about this?!?

This shouldn’t really be surprising to anybody... but Koch’s actually are pretty good on prisoner reform and felons rights issues. One of the few things I agree with them on.

They're also surprisingly not that racist.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13816 on: January 27, 2018, 09:07:51 PM »
As for the Russian bots amplifying trump and amplifying Wikileaks, there are lots of things in this whole Russian interference that could be coincidence, taken individually, but I feel like you have to really stretch credibility to say it was coincidence when you see it all added up.

Like theoretically, I guess it’s possible that Trump hires a campaign manager who worked for free thst has ties to Putin, and that the Russian Government hacked the DNC and shortly after set up a meeting with Trump with the promise of sensitive government information to help with the election, then Instead of promising to share the hacked emails, instead shared a garbage dossier with no real information.

Similarly, it’s possible that Wikileaks actually got the DNC emails from somebody else other than russia, who was simultaneously hacking the DNC. It could also be coincidence that Russia is offering Trump assistance in the campaign, and then also retweeting Wikileaks while Wikileaks is also offering  trump campaign advice, and simultaneously Wikileaks is not talking to Russia at all.

It’s also theoretically possible that everybody associated with the Trump campaign chose to lie about meetings with Russia, even though they did nothing improper.

All of these things are possible, but it’s not the simplest explanation by a long shot.

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13817 on: January 27, 2018, 09:17:52 PM »
no no no, when you talk about coincidences you're supposed to quote this as the final part


Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13818 on: January 28, 2018, 01:26:16 AM »
As for the Russian bots amplifying trump and amplifying Wikileaks, there are lots of things in this whole Russian interference that could be coincidence, taken individually, but I feel like you have to really stretch credibility to say it was coincidence when you see it all added up.

Like theoretically, I guess it’s possible that Trump hires a campaign manager who worked for free thst has ties to Putin, and that the Russian Government hacked the DNC and shortly after set up a meeting with Trump with the promise of sensitive government information to help with the election, then Instead of promising to share the hacked emails, instead shared a garbage dossier with no real information.

Similarly, it’s possible that Wikileaks actually got the DNC emails from somebody else other than russia, who was simultaneously hacking the DNC. It could also be coincidence that Russia is offering Trump assistance in the campaign, and then also retweeting Wikileaks while Wikileaks is also offering  trump campaign advice, and simultaneously Wikileaks is not talking to Russia at all.

It’s also theoretically possible that everybody associated with the Trump campaign chose to lie about meetings with Russia, even though they did nothing improper.

All of these things are possible, but it’s not the simplest explanation by a long shot.


There is an interesting phenomena that occurs with humans in how we can often find ourselves deriving strongly held opinions.

Cognitive scientists and behavioral economists have done a lot of studies that confirm basically this same underlying thing. For instance, to distill it down, if you take a person that either has a neutral position or an opposite position on a two-sided issue, and you ask that person to make an argument for one side(in the case of the neutral participant) or the opposite(in the case of the already biased person), the more they engage in arguing for that side, the more they will come to actually believe in it. What is even more crazy, if another person comes in and challenges that person on the argument they are defending, even with overwhelming empirical evidence, it basically calcifies the argued position into the arguer even more.

There are a lot of varying explanations about why this happens, but we know that it does. Overwhelmingly so in study after study. It basically exposes how the very act of arguing a position creates a long-term path dependency that biases and increasingly calcifies a person's favoritism toward that bias.  It's one explanation for why a society may have so many climate change denialists and creationists that are incapable of being persuaded no matter how convincing the persuader is. No matter how overwhelming the empirical facts become. Because they were pushed down a certain path at the beginning, or took on a certain position initially, and because of that initial indoctrination(self induced or influenced), it becomes almost impossible to change that without intense self skepticism. Which most people will not engage in.

That is basically etiolate. He jumped in on one side of the argument, and despite literally every single piece of evidence he previously cited going belly up, a narrative on ground as shaky as creationism, he still clings to that narrative.

Before he put me on ignore, he basically inadvertently admitted to this happening to him, when he inferred that he essentially is at the point where he takes it on faith that the Seth Rich thing will pan out for him. Despite the entire Fox News story, and the waves of evidence to the contrary, tearing that narrative apart in spectacular fashion.

My point is, I would just keep that in mind, because at least by doing so you can be entertained while he engages in an ever intensifying game of self-delusion as the evidence against him piles up. As he puts more and more people on ignore that trigger him. Under the illusion that is is them that are intellectually lacking.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 01:30:36 AM by Nola »

team filler

  • filler
  • filler
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13819 on: January 28, 2018, 01:33:53 AM »
I was with you until you brought Godtiolate into this.
*****


team filler

  • filler
  • filler
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13821 on: January 28, 2018, 01:58:05 AM »
 :lol
*****

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13822 on: January 28, 2018, 02:41:16 AM »
quite frankly, i don't believe slaves should be counted at all for apportionment purposes, no matter what CNN thinks

Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13823 on: January 28, 2018, 02:43:43 AM »
quite frankly, i don't believe slaves should be counted at all for apportionment purposes, no matter what CNN thinks

How about a compromise?

3/5 sound good?  :doge

benjipwns

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13824 on: January 28, 2018, 03:04:42 AM »
ha! never!

this "union" is just a monarchical plot to create big government to transfer wealth to the upper class, give the south the power to enforce slavery on the rest of us and enthrone an unchecked executive to endlessly involve us in foreign wars!

shosta

  • death to one's self
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13825 on: January 28, 2018, 04:09:37 AM »
Before he put me on ignore, he basically inadvertently admitted to this happening to him, when he inferred that he essentially is at the point where he takes it on faith that the Seth Rich thing will pan out for him. Despite the entire Fox News story, and the waves of evidence to the contrary, tearing that narrative apart in spectacular fashion.
This hilarious game of intellectual sadism aside, I want to say that an important part of communicating with people is giving them the opportunity to save face instead of trying to own them into the dirt. I think if people just got off etiolate's ass about it, he'll just come to accept the truth, even if he'll never admit it, and nobody has to win their internet points for the day, we can all just be nice to each other.

And for those of you who will say that he's hardly a nice person himself, I think he's a brawler type like Trump is. He digs in and punches back at anyone who throws one first, even if it's over something stupid. Just my thoughts for the day. Carepost?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
每天生气

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13826 on: January 28, 2018, 04:13:11 AM »
This hilarious game of intellectual sadism aside, I want to say that an important part of communicating with people is giving them the opportunity to save face instead of trying to own them into the dirt.

Counterpoint: Christopher Hitchens is bad and liking him makes you bad.

shosta

  • death to one's self
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13827 on: January 28, 2018, 04:31:36 AM »
Christopher Hitchens is like the only person I like anymore, besides Keith Olbermann.
每天生气

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13828 on: January 28, 2018, 12:50:19 PM »
There is no truth to admit to. Talking about behavioral science while sitting in your confirmation bias. :lol fucking clowns

If you think Russia trying to mess with the USA during election time is new or remarkable? You're naive.
If you believe deep state claims without evidence? You're a schmuck.

Proof. Proof that the public can verify. Remember, you're trying to prove collusion that got Trump elected. You've probably lost track of that along the whole roller coaster ride.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13829 on: January 28, 2018, 01:31:47 PM »
Remember, you're trying to prove collusion that got Trump elected.

False.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13830 on: January 28, 2018, 01:41:46 PM »
There is no truth to admit to. Talking about behavioral science while sitting in your confirmation bias. :lol fucking clowns

If you think Russia trying to mess with the USA during election time is new or remarkable? You're naive.
If you believe deep state claims without evidence? You're a schmuck.

Proof. Proof that the public can verify. Remember, you're trying to prove collusion that got Trump elected. You've probably lost track of that along the whole roller coaster ride.

Should’ve added  “wake up sheeple” to the end.

That said, I think that trying to talk about proving “collusion” is a dead end that gives away that the person saying it has set a standard so high it will probsbly never be met. I see it in Benji, Shosta, and Etiolate that their standard of “proof” is something akin to a recorded meeting where trump and Putin get together and say “I’ll help you win the election if you drop sanctions” or something like that.

With the possible exception of trump being a complete moron, I can almost guarantee that no conversation like this ever occurred. So if that is your standard,you are probably correct, but you should also state that so the rest of us can realize that you have set an almost impossibly high bar of proof.

That said, even if that didn’t occur, it doesn’t mean there wasn’t a crime committed. I think you could make a pretty damn good case that there were campaign finance violations, misprision of a felony, and a conspiracy to conceal both just from reading Donald Jrs. Emails and knowing that Russia hacked the DNC.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13831 on: January 28, 2018, 01:52:01 PM »
The press and you guys are the ones that set collusion as a standard. :lol


Remember that collusion was the word the media used. That was the scare word from the very start.

Tasty

  • 🌺 Neo Flower Child 🌸
  • Senior Member

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13833 on: January 28, 2018, 03:25:56 PM »
The press and you guys are the ones that set collusion as a standard. :lol


Remember that collusion was the word the media used. That was the scare word from the very start.

This is a world where dumb trump motherfuckers say shit like “he didn’t obstruct justice because he never told Comey to lay off Flynn, he just asked him if he would”...

But I would argue that if the Russian government contacts the trump campaign, and then says “hey doodz we have Hillary dirt” and the trump campaign replies “cool beans! Love to see it later this summer, but don’t tell anyone”

That is collusion by the dictionary definition on its own:

Quote
col·lu·sion
kəˈlo͞oZHən/Submit
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
"the armed forces were working in collusion with drug traffickers"

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13834 on: January 28, 2018, 03:57:04 PM »
You're lacking a grand conspiracy, and the intent to cheat or deceive others.

I will say this about "collusion", it was chosen for its malleability. As a word choice, it has the ability to wander from vague idea to legalese. Behind the word usage is the idea that the Americans were cheated by the Russians working with Trump to give him the election. That's the calming, "we didn't really elect Trump" mentality it appeals to people with. Around that idea, you can stir up a bunch of smoke and fear.

I advise you to set your standard for "proof" to be actual proof. Not the smoke, fear and shell game antics that have been going on for months. Considering how many people in government have gotten away with crimes and violating the constitution, violated the people and the world by starting wars for profit and gotten cleanly away with it? And this is with actual evidence of this wrongdoing? You should realize that to take out Trump that you need real proof and if you take him out without that, you will plant the seeds for civil war. (Which, if you understood the aim of divisive propaganda, would be the actual goal of foreign governments.)

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13835 on: January 28, 2018, 04:21:00 PM »
Dude, grand conspiracy has no meaning apart from regular conspiracy.

Using or soliciting DNC emails hacked illegally by another country is cheating in an election, yes or no?

If what you call our fevered dream of a story is true, Russia hacked the DNC then offered those emails to the Fonald Trump campaign, and the Donald trump campaign said “great thanks for the help, we love it!”do you think that is “cheating” in the election?

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13836 on: January 28, 2018, 04:22:41 PM »
As for Donald trump getting impeached, I don’t really care either way.

He’s an incredibly unpopular ineffective president, that will likely be dealing with a split congress in a year. If they impeach him great, if not he’ll lose in 2020.

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13837 on: January 28, 2018, 04:36:58 PM »
et, you still banking on that Malia Zimmerman story panning out?

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13838 on: January 28, 2018, 04:37:43 PM »
Before he put me on ignore, he basically inadvertently admitted to this happening to him, when he inferred that he essentially is at the point where he takes it on faith that the Seth Rich thing will pan out for him. Despite the entire Fox News story, and the waves of evidence to the contrary, tearing that narrative apart in spectacular fashion.
This hilarious game of intellectual sadism aside, I want to say that an important part of communicating with people is giving them the opportunity to save face instead of trying to own them into the dirt. I think if people just got off etiolate's ass about it, he'll just come to accept the truth, even if he'll never admit it, and nobody has to win their internet points for the day, we can all just be nice to each other.

And for those of you who will say that he's hardly a nice person himself, I think he's a brawler type like Trump is. He digs in and punches back at anyone who throws one first, even if it's over something stupid. Just my thoughts for the day. Carepost?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To be fair, that olive branch has been offered up to etiolate on multiple occasions, for months. And every time he smacks it away, often with unprovoked and crass insults toward the person he is speaking with. Which is ironic given the situation he finds himself in defending conspiracies that fall apart on him time and again. People have actually made a number of good faith efforts(with pretty minimal snark, including right now) to lay out for him the weakness of his case and the ever strengthening evidence affirming the currently held consensus of Kremlin origin with regards to the 2016 hacks. However, as expected, he just digs in further, like is happening now. Getting increasingly hostile as any conversation goes on.

I've told him before, I don't hate him. The guy likes Boogie more than most actual Pelicans fans I know, that's decent people in my book. I think a lot of his opinions in the political realm are fucking moronic because whatever happened to him along his development path politically on certain issues, it has led him down a road of putting irrational faith into things like 4chan rumors, conveniently timed Fox News conspiracies, and conspiracy level simple narratives about complex topics, often to great comical effect.





shosta

  • death to one's self
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13839 on: January 28, 2018, 04:45:08 PM »
The guy likes Boogie more than most actual Pelicans fans I know, that's decent people in my book.
It's because he's a sac native. We all felt really betrayed when he got traded. Boogie was the only good thing to happen to our team in a long time and mismanagement proved they could snatch defeat from the jaws of hope.
每天生气

Nintex

  • Boy's Club President
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13840 on: January 28, 2018, 05:42:52 PM »
The Atlantic wrote a substantial piece on Manafort that is... quite something.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/paul-manafort-american-hustler/550925/

In my view Trump's friends were in way over their heads, knew they were walking timebombs (Manafort/Flynn etc.) but figured that he couldn't win anyway so they might as well join along for the ride to get something out of it for themselves. Influence in the party, maybe sell a book or two. Note how a few of them like Rudy have dropped completely off the planet since he took office. This was never how they thought it would play out.

Neither did the people who ran against Trump. Team Clinton thought that the Access Hollywood tape would do him in, and honestly it did. In fact the Clinton people like Podesta were so confident that hey were already planning the new cabinet and trying to get the best positions. The somewhat sensible folks still with Trump ran for the hills at that point, while only the true believers and those in it for themselves were left behind. And honestly I think that the Russians never meant for Trump to be elected either. That they just wanted to weaken the Clinton presidency as they had weakened US intelligence operations through Wikileaks. I honestly think that the Russians were trying to figure out what's what with the Trump campaign people. Like would this guy really go to Iraq again and take the oil, or kill are the terrorists and their families (some of which living in Russia). Imagine if in Russia a retired circus clown ran for office telling people he'd build a wall along the Chinese border, finish the job in Georgia and nuke Ukraine. US intelligence would at least try to ascertain just what this clown is talking about.

The Democrats and news media are trying to make us believe that Vladimir Putin himself selected Trump to be the lynch pin of an elaborate scheme to elect a puppet leader in the US.
They want to make us believe that the Russians bet on Trump as early as 2015 (or perhaps even earlier) to take on Hillary Clinton in the general election.
Either Putin has build a time machine or they've lost their minds.
🤴

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13841 on: January 28, 2018, 05:55:04 PM »
et, you still banking on that Malia Zimmerman story panning out?

You mean the Sy Hersh and Assange story?

Hey, instead of being a coward, how about you make a claim or two? Do you think Wikileaks is a Russian lackey?

Nintex

  • Boy's Club President
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13842 on: January 28, 2018, 06:17:57 PM »
et, you still banking on that Malia Zimmerman story panning out?

You mean the Sy Hersh and Assange story?

Hey, instead of being a coward, how about you make a claim or two? Do you think Wikileaks is a Russian lackey?
At some point I had Wikileaks and Russia Today on Twitter and I couldn't distinguish between the two.

The fact that Assange had Russian security guarding him and arranged for Snowden to be picked up by the FSB in Moscow might've rang a few bells as well.
🤴

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13843 on: January 28, 2018, 06:33:14 PM »
et, you still banking on that Malia Zimmerman story panning out?

You mean the Sy Hersh and Assange story?

Hey, instead of being a coward, how about you make a claim or two? Do you think Wikileaks is a Russian lackey?

No, I specifically mean the story with Zimmerman's byline that was published on the Fox News website. Do you expect that story to be vindicated in the future?

If you'd like to refresh your memory, it's here.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 06:40:04 PM by Mandark »

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13844 on: January 28, 2018, 06:57:05 PM »
You're reframing it via the spin job on the story and ignoring that Iv'e stated many times that my suspicions and all original suspicions emerge from Assange, and that the story you call the Zimmerman story is all birthed from Sy Hersh.


Now stop being a bitch and answer my question.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13845 on: January 28, 2018, 07:16:59 PM »
et, you still banking on that Malia Zimmerman story panning out?

You mean the Sy Hersh and Assange story?

Hey, instead of being a coward, how about you make a claim or two? Do you think Wikileaks is a Russian lackey?

FYI, this has been explained multiple times:
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=44608.msg2362570#msg2362570
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=44608.msg2279272#msg2279272

Hersh has called the info Butowski took from him as reckless hearsay and gossip that he puts no stock in. Made it clear the audio that you once posted here was selectively edited to take out the points in the conversation where he made it clear that the source was not verified and he himself has seen no evidence to suggest conspiracy(shocking, I know, that a Trump shill and Fox News surrogate would do such a thing in an "investigation" that was purposefully designed to find evidence toward a conclusion he wanted). Which is why Hersh was never going to report on this and said as much to Butowski.

Sy Hersh does not and did not find this single gossip source credible, so why do you continue to cite him in defense of your conspiracy?


« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 07:26:33 PM by Nola »

Great Rumbler

  • Dab on the sinners
  • Global Moderator
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13846 on: January 28, 2018, 07:26:09 PM »
This is a good insight.

Quote
At a certain point in “God and Donald Trump,” the recent theological gymnastics on display from Tony Perkins and Jerry Falwell, Jr., among others, to explain ongoing conservative Christian support for a president who (allegedly) paid off a porn star weeks before Election Day so she would keep quiet about their (alleged) affair become clear. There will be no point at which Trump’s most loyal evangelical and charismatic supporters declare they have had enough. Because to do so would be to admit that they were wrong, that God wasn’t behind Trump’s election, and that their Holy Spirit radar might be on the fritz. That it was, after all, about something as temporal and banal as hating his Democratic rival.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/27/millions-of-americans-believe-god-made-trump-president-216537?lo=ap_c1

Actually it probably comes from a similar cognitive failure as etiolate still banging on about Seth Rich, or Himu pretending the Comey Letter didn’t happen.

They'll continue to back him because it's not a religious issue, it's a cultural issue. And Trump will back whatever cultural issues that religious conservatives want him to back.
dog

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13847 on: January 28, 2018, 07:32:00 PM »
You're reframing it via the spin job on the story and ignoring that Iv'e stated many times that my suspicions and all original suspicions emerge from Assange, and that the story you call the Zimmerman story is all birthed from Sy Hersh.

No, I am asking because the Zimmerman story has some claims that go further and are more detailed than the more general case (ie Seth Rich was the source and Russia was not involved in leaking/hacking). I'm curious whether you believe those specific claims are going to be borne out in future reporting.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13848 on: January 28, 2018, 07:38:54 PM »
The more you dodge the question, the more my coward accusation lingers over your head.

curly

  • cultural maoist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13849 on: January 28, 2018, 08:31:50 PM »
but the one dodging the question...is you? :confused

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13850 on: January 28, 2018, 08:44:08 PM »
There have been various stories over the last year that basically said Putin didn't expect Trump to win, and that's my view. I think the tampering/collusion was largely an attempt to attack US democracy in general, and of course also cripple the incoming US president (Clinton), who Putin was reportedly upset with due to accusations from the State Department that his previous election was fraudulent. Russian bots were gearing up to question the results, assuming that Clinton would win. We've already seen Don Jr's correspondence with Wikileaks, who were asking Trump to question the results as well. It's pretty obvious what the plan was.

I'm not even sure Putin would consider the results a win for him, long term. Trump hasn't been able to remove the sanctions, and now the CIA/FBI/NSA/etc are investigating 2016 in a way they (presumably) wouldn't be if Clinton had won. Furthermore I'd argue that if Trump goes down and Pence becomes president, we'll see a return of typical GOP cold war fuckery towards Russia. Pence will have to prove to the American people that he had nothing to do with the collusion, meaning more sanctions and antagonism.

010

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13851 on: January 28, 2018, 08:49:24 PM »
but the one dodging the question...is you? :confused

hey instead of being a coward, how about you make a claim or two?

I'm a Puppy!

  • Knows the muffin man.
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13852 on: January 28, 2018, 10:56:11 PM »
So, I can't be the only one who upon hearing that trump wants to nationalize the 5g network thought, "oh. He's really done now. You don't take those people on and survive politically"
que

El Babua

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13853 on: January 28, 2018, 11:10:25 PM »
^That would make Trump the most socialist president in ages just based on that

But for now I'll chalk it up to something he decided to say and will change his tune on relatively quick

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13854 on: January 28, 2018, 11:46:45 PM »
^That would make Trump the most socialist president in ages just based on that

But for now I'll chalk it up to something he decided to say and will change his tune on relatively quick

Something tells me if this doesn't end up just like Trump's pledge to negotiate drug prices with pharm companies(meaning it goes nowhere once the industry cronies in his administration push back and Trump gets distracted by some other shiny object), it will end up being socialism of the lemon variety. I.E. The American taxpayer will be on the hook for the risk and costs, and they will find some convoluted way to give the operating profits to the oligopoly industries they will attempt to put in charge.


shosta

  • death to one's self
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| Oprah/Uma 2020
« Reply #13855 on: January 29, 2018, 05:12:59 AM »
We need a new running plot in this thread. I'll volunteer.
No, Nola, religious critique was not his "wheelhouse".

Sure it was. It's where he actually consistently made reasonable and defensible arguments. His foreign policy was often lacking. Yes he separated himself from Harris in often critiquing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but he had the same sort of simple narrative causation analysis problem that allowed an over-emphasis on religion that clouded plenty of their judgement in how they witnessed and assessed the Middle East.
You're so far off base here that, again, I'm questioning whether you're even familiar with his work, which is a prerequisite for this criticism. Constraining this a little, his basis for the invasion of Iraq was fairly straightforward. It goes like this: the UN provides four conditions under which a nation loses its right to sovereignty. Either it infringes the sovereignty of another country, it commits an act of genocide, it violates the UN nuclear non-proliferation agreements, or it becomes a state sponsor of terrorism. Saddam Hussein had violated all four. Regarding Israel and Palestine, I've already linked you to one of his many articles on the subject which, if read, would not give the impression of an ideological dullard turning everything into a nail for his hammer. Accusing him of not having a sophisticated understanding of the development of Middle-Eastern countries is blatantly wrong on its face and would not survive a simple walk through his literature on any of those individual subjects. Are you sure you just haven't seen too much Sam Harris and projected your views of him onto Hitchens?
Quote
Of course that was after he wrote columns about how Clinton supposedly bombed the Sudanese to deflect from Lewinsky. An absolutely absurd, and still to this day, unfounded assertion, probably on the heels of another drunken contrarian deadline he had to meet.
This was a rather random insertion into an otherwise coherent paragraph, but I have two things to say about it. The first is that it was very common at the time to suggest that Clinton was "wagging the dog" with that bombing (and anything else Clinton did as president during the trial). This wasn't unique to him, even if it's to his discredit. The second is that in general he was rather convinced that Clinton was a psychopath and hated the man. I like Clinton but I understand why a Jerry Brown supporter and avowed liberal would be such a pioneer in Clinton derangment. If we're going to criticize him for anything, it should be this.

Quote
The cocktail of alcoholism and 9/11 on Hitchens only made his foreign policy judgement worse. Where he took 9/11 and Iraq and somehow managed to view that moment in time as some sort of existential battle for the future of humanity, played out through the absolute necessity of removing Saddam, often to the point of just blankly parroting Neoconservative talking points of the moment(probably helped he would regularly host Paul Wolfolwitz and his Office of Special Plans gang at his DC apartment).
You're off on the framing. He viewed Iraq as a moral imperative for civilized society similar to the Cold War, the Balkans, Rwanda, etc, both for world peace and also for justice against arguably once of the worst dictators left in the 20th century. This isn't some heinous position to take. I'm a millennial living in 2018 and I can quite easily say "the risk is too high", but placing yourself in the context of 2003 it's less clear. Certainly no one goes around saying Clinton's intervention in Bosnia was a mistake. Iraq is the ugly child in the family of intervention because it was mismanaged, built on faulty intelligence, and has lasted forever, but none of that is relevant before the war even starts from the public's perspective. Not to mention, according to Gallup, Democrats (and Republicans) are likely to forget what their own position on the war even was.

I just completely disagree that Hitchens was ever parroting neocon talking points, first from my own experience as he's one of maybe three people on planet Earth who have ever made convincing, historical, lucid arguments for invading Iraq at all (the other two being Tony Blair and Saddam Hussein) and second because he's said quite a few times in jest that if someone else made decent arguments for invading Iraq he wouldn't feel so much like it his responsibility to spend so much time on the circuit making his own.

Quote
Going on to be one of the most fervent outside supporters of the invasion, the actions, and the Bush rationale for the Iraq war. Including in the midst of and after the fact of Bob Woodward's contemporaneous accounts of the administration's purposefully deceptive rationales to the public, Thomas Rick's accounts of the military failures and Bush deception, and after Rajiv Chandrasekaran's Imperial Life in The Emerald City laid to rest any doubts that the administration's post invasion leadership was at best incompetent and at worse treasonously corrupt. Yet Hitchens still managed to find time to go on forum after forum, from Democracy Now to debating Scott Ritter - who had first hand accounts of Bush's handwaving of the Hans Blix reports that signaled with defining clarity they were about to embark on a historical mistake based on their unfettered findings inspecting the weapons in Iraq -  continuing to defend the choices and decisions of the Bush administration. and as Mandark points out, prime the pump to rationalize another adventure of garden theory regime change into Iran the moment Cheney and company started laying the groundwork for the rationale.
This is revisionist although I'm sure we can go back and forth on this for quite a bit. He never gave a blank check to Bush. He criticized the things he thought he did wrong, and defended him for the things he thought he did right (like the decision to invade in the first place). He absolutely condemned what happened at Abu Ghraib, the postwar management of Iraq by Paul Bremer, and especially the allegations of torture by the US government (like I said earlier, undergoing waterboarding himself and saying "if this is not torture, nothing is").



What's the point of this post? I don't think the Iraq War was a good idea, I don't like what the Bush administration did, and I'm a rigidly anti-intervention. But Christopher Hitchens was not some bluthering moron and he wasn't a sock puppet for neconservatives, incapable of his own cogent thoughts. He had an intellectually defensible position and I'm more than willing to defend his name, even if I don't agree with everything he's ever said.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 05:41:42 AM by Shostakovich »
每天生气

team filler

  • filler
  • filler
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13856 on: January 29, 2018, 05:17:59 AM »
you're all cowards, make some claims or stfu
*****

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13857 on: January 29, 2018, 06:13:08 AM »
Christopher Hitchens was pretty bad, but at least he waterboarded Christopher Hitchens.

kingv

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13858 on: January 29, 2018, 08:58:41 AM »
I think the worst thing about Hitchens is that he was still defending the Iraq war in like 2007, well after everybody else realized it was a terrible mistake.

He took the view that nobody realized that it was based on faulty intelligence beforehand, when lots of people were questioning it. Those people were widely derided as kooks and pansies, but they ended up being correct.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| The #benjishutdown is over!
« Reply #13859 on: January 29, 2018, 10:10:32 AM »
Here’s the thing about intelligent people, they can spend a lot of time making their dumbest opinions appear credible, including to themselves.

Christopher Hitchens is a smart person that found his way into some really dumb opinions along his life’s journey.


spoiler (click to show/hide)
I’ll try and respond more formally this evening when I get a moment.
[close]