US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[Himu]

so you still claiming to be a socialist or nah

Oh you mean the people who hate free speech? Fuck no. I was wrong about capitalism and I was wrong about America. I may be black but at last I was born in the USA.

[team filler]

 

[Mupepe]

I'm not trying to point fingers or anything but does anyone find it curious that neither Obama nor Hillary did anything to stop the Russian interference in our election?  I mean, isn't that a bit odd that our President at the time and former First Lady and Secretary of State just stood by and let it happen?  Makes you think...

[nachobro]

 

[curly]

so you still claiming to be a socialist or nah

Oh you mean the people who hate free speech? Fuck no. I was wrong about capitalism and I was wrong about America. I may be black but at last I was born in the USA.

called it

[Nola]

Also the Democratic Party just expecting votes without the work sure worked well in 2016. Barely even going to the Rust Belt. That was fantastic in how enlightening it was. It showed that Democrats undervalue not only black voters but even all of their voters. Quite a message to send out.

The Democrats often undervalue my vote in elections.....Therefore I am going to help get elected through apathy or tacit endorsement those that govern unequivocally in ways that show they put negative value in my vote.

Makes perfect sense. 

[Phoenix Dark]

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/

2 seconds of google, literally

[Tasty]

conservatives are more understanding of trans people blergy blurgy bloo

 

You can say,”they hate you!” but what exactly has the Democratic Party done?

Andy, you're mistaking voting block tactics and wedge issue politics for actually caring about people.  Talk is cheap.

 

OK so let's look at the voting records of each party.

States where conversion therapy is banned:



Odd how it's mostly liberal states.


Or how about employment protections against LGBT discrimination?





I for one am shocked, SHOCKED that the conservative, gun-filled edens that are Texas, Mississipi, and Tennessee allow you to get fired from any job just for being trans.

(Well, not that shocked.)


Wonder what conservatives have been up to.



Just more of that democrat lip service!


If a conservative president had been elected in 2012, would we even have marriage equality right now? The Paris Accord? The Iran deal? A few more years of actual Net Neutrality?


Fuck identity politics. But as an extension of that: fuck single issue voting. You're sucking GOP cock to fondle NRA balls and saying "fuck you" to the rest of us that care about LGBT rights, climate change, socialized health care, etc. The amount of backwards hoop-jumping you've done in order to be able to squeak out "No, no! It's ok! They finally tolerate me! I'm one of the good ones!" is sickening tbh. No matter what I think of your views, you deserve better than that.

You can say "fuck liberals" all the live-long day. Being frustrated with slow progress is politics. Going full conservative though? Might as well tell me the earth is flat.

I’d rather hedge my bets on the dark side.

Make sure to give one last middle finger to the rest of us on your way down the mineshaft, Palpy. I'll be sure to flip one right back as the Death Star you set up to self-destruct implodes.

[etiolate]

Are you sure you want to keep praising the Iran deal?

[Nola]

Are you sure you want to keep praising the Iran deal?

I've yet to hear a single person capable of making an alternative argument for a realistic substitution policy that would of been more effective at the stated goal of deterring a nuclear Iran?

I've been waiting two years now. Not even the Trump administration seems to have been capable of coming up with one despite running on that very argument. Or his GOP congress that backed him and now controls the government.

I'm sure etiolate, in his Seth Rich wisdom, has it figured out though.

[Tasty]

Even putting aside the content of the Iran deal (could it have been better? maybe, but it still seems reasonable to me for both sides) - the deal itself is absolutely a landmark in US/Middle East relations (for the better, obviously.)

If we had a similar deal with North Korea 30 years ago, we would not be in the state of affairs we are now in.

[Phoenix Dark]

I have some gripes about identity politics but I firmly disagree with calling this topic or similar ones wedge issues. If you're trans, issues that literally impact your livlihood or civil rights are not "wedge issues." Wedge issues suggest something frivolous or distracting. Now...could they be used as distractions, or to virtue signal or whatever else? Sure. 2004 is a great example. But in 2016 for instance, when the calculus was "hey, this guy pals around with religious extremists who will roll back as much progress as they can on gay/trans issues..." I don't see how you could argue that was a wedge or distraction issue.

[Nola]

Even putting aside the content of the Iran deal (could it have been better? maybe, but it still seems reasonable to me for both sides) - the deal itself is absolutely a landmark in US/Middle East relations (for the better, obviously.)

If we had a similar deal with North Korea 30 years ago, we would not be in the state of affairs we are now in.

The thing is the only reason it worked was because you got the tenuous support of Russia and China to sign onto the sanctions strategy the US was endorsing. Which they spent years resisting and playing interference on. And they only signed on with the explicit understanding of the end goal being forcing Iran into a position where they would allow an inspections structure and slow the breakout time of nuclear weapons. Anything past that post and China and Russia were more than ready to go back to playing obstructionist and undercutting US foreign policy toward Iran.

The argument from the right always ignores that context. Something something, America should of kept up the sanctions and got a better deal. Made them drop their terrorist activities and bend to the knee of American right-wing interests. That was never in the cards. As such a play almost guarantees the fracturing of the absolutely pivotal Russian and Chinese cooperation that was so pivotal, and all of the sudden you are without any deal at all, a much more poisoned well, and a reduced negotiating position.

[etiolate]

The Identity Politics exchange is for your group-based identity getting some love, you have to go along with these other issues which do not reflect you. It may also undo protections for the group identity by accident, since the lobbying groups are so asinine.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Tho a Canadian issue, this is what happened in Bill C-16. Trans lobbyists argued/wrote it under the pretense of not using the medical explanation and science, and that gender can shift as the person chooses. This opens the door for the return of conversion therapy. Wouldn't be surprised to see that sort of wayward approach come to the US.)

[close]

I'm not sure what PD means by 2016? Trump? Trump had more involved gay and trans people than any other Repub pres candidate.

[kingv]

Just make sure to go to your birth certificate bathroom while voting for the Party of Lincoln, who personally freed you from slavery, Cindi.



 

[Phoenix Dark]

The Identity Politics exchange is for your group-based identity getting some love, you have to go along with these other issues which do not reflect you. It may also undo protections for the group identity by accident, since the lobbying groups are so asinine.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Tho a Canadian issue, this is what happened in Bill C-16. Trans lobbyists argued/wrote it under the pretense of not using the medical explanation and science, and that gender can shift as the person chooses. This opens the door for the return of conversion therapy. Wouldn't be surprised to see that sort of wayward approach come to the US.)

[close]

I'm not sure what PD means by 2016? Trump? Trump had more involved gay and trans people than any other Repub pres candidate.

My post specifically made the point that Trump surrounded himself with fiercely anti LGBT people, including his VP, and those people would roll back whatever civil rights they could. Trump being personally cool with gay people (allegedly...ask Roy Cohn) is irrelevant when everything about him as a candidate suggested he would govern differently. In fact, before the election he even released a list of potential SC judges, nearly all of whom are right wingers. So yes, an LGBT person concluding Trump would be a disaster for them in 2016 was a logical position and has obviously played out as expected.

[Nola]

If Ivanka and Kushner are enough to push you past your party competition in terms of LGBT campaign support, I'm not sure I'm counting that as a Civil Rights win.

[etiolate]

Looked for something relevant. These girls are at the current cpac, too.

https://rare.us/rare-politics/rare-liberty/conservatism-today/meet-the-republican-trans-women-building-bridges-not-walls-at-cpac/

“I’m still going to be doing the same stuff,” she promised. She and Williams wanted to remain actively engaged in their political community to build a bridge between the LGBT community and its critics. And for Evans, it wasn’t just about her identity. She still advocated for free markets, fiscal responsibility, smaller government, criminal justice reform, and the Constitution. She had hoped to see her Republican counterparts do the same, explaining why the Fourteenth Amendment was applicable to Title IX protections as an example.

The bathroom stuff is tricky. Don't think the state should be involved either way. It was working out before Obama or any other state force got involved.

[agrajag]

The Identity Politics exchange is for your group-based identity getting some love, you have to go along with these other issues which do not reflect you. It may also undo protections for the group identity by accident, since the lobbying groups are so asinine.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Tho a Canadian issue, this is what happened in Bill C-16. Trans lobbyists argued/wrote it under the pretense of not using the medical explanation and science, and that gender can shift as the person chooses. This opens the door for the return of conversion therapy. Wouldn't be surprised to see that sort of wayward approach come to the US.)

[close]

I'm not sure what PD means by 2016? Trump? Trump had more involved gay and trans people than any other Repub pres candidate.

Then he picked the most openly anti LGBT politician in the country as his running mate. Pence is such a bitchy cunt that when there was going to be a LGBT vanity plate for sale in Indiana, he first tried to stop it from happening, and when told it was illegal on the basis of discrimination, he shut down the whole vanity plate system. It's still suspended even with him no longer in office.

Talk is cheap, Pence is a man of action

[Phoenix Dark]

CPAC was blocking Log Cabin Republicans from the event just a few years ago. A couple trans people being there doesn't suggest a movement for trans awareness lmao. In fact a lot of the right wing types are upset about it right now.

The funny thing is that CPAC typically features a more libertarian-leaning crowd (remember when Ron Paul would win all the presidential straw polls), which would presumably result in more gay/trans friendly atmosphere than a...religious right atmosphere. And yet this is still controversial. Meanwhile polls continue to show no inroads on trans rights among conservatives. Go listen to what Ben Shapiro has to say about this...

[etiolate]

The article I linked was about their disagreements with some policy and the evangelicals. (And their Rand Paul love.)

[Joe Molotov]

Look at all these M4M posts from CPAC, GOP is so open minded these days guys.

[Nola]

Modern conservatives have always had small niches of supporters that claim to want to build bridges on contentious civil rights issues, and every time the larger GOP has been offered a fork in the road to pivot toward more inclusive platforms for the party, they walk right on past it while starting some brush fires as they pass. When they have power they erode civil rights, when they lack it they obstruct and prevent advancing it.

Trump has been no different.

- Anti LGBTQ Neil Gorsuch.
- Countless anti-LGBT nominations to other federal judgeships and administration appointments that will have large knockdown effects.
- Almost every single major cabinet appointee has expressed anti-LGBT policy views.
- Attempt at transgender military ban.
- Repealing federal and school protections for LGBTQ .
- Justice Department weakening enforcement of LGBTQ discrimination laws.

[curly]

Man the transgender military ban feels like a lifetime ago

[Nola]

The new charges against Mueller(and Gates) have been unsealed:

On Thursday, a grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia charged Paul Manafort and Richard Gates on a total of 32 counts related to bank fraud, tax fraud, and failure to report foreign bank accounts. The special counsel also released a status report on the case. The full indictment is included below:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-superseding-indictment-against-manafort-and-gates

The interesting thing is the new Gates charges and the firing of his lawyer that happened recently. I've seen more than one place suggest this likely means the plea deal with Gates is dead.

[Mandark]

Are you sure you want to keep praising the Iran deal?

yeah

[Himu]

One thing to consider on the identity politics front is ideology and beliefs.

Being on liberal/leftist side all my life I know that they don’t value free speech. I do. They don’t think people like Shapiro should speak on campuses? I do. The lefts penchant for shielding themselves from people like that has created a situation where they are simply incpabale of debating them. They don’t see the point in debating someone with such “hateful” views. I find that to be the definition of weakness. I do not value weakness. The liberals/leftists I know don’t want others who disagree with them on things to speak out so they call people one word names like racist, transphobe. In the liberal community, have one opinion that goes against their values and they dehumanize you, kick you out of the club. They don’t want to hear it. But since election 2016 when realizing I don’t have any conservative friends for exactly those reasons I described, I started to slowly befriend conservatives - even Trump voters. I found that they tend to respect you and still want to associate with you even if you don’t agree. In fact many valued disagreements because they had learned something. Far different than my liberal/leftist friends or even leftist companies such as Google.

I value free speech and the left just doesn’t. They say they do, but I think they need to do some soul searching. And if they’re acting the way they are NOW, where they think violence is justified just because someone says something they don’t like? Whose to say how they'll act when they finally implement socialism? Gulags sure sounds fun.

You start to realize that there’s a clear separation between party and ideology.

Conservatism != Republican. One major problem is that the modern Republican Party is even tied to conservatism. They’re way past that at this point.

However, when one has certain values or beliefs you might think they’re worth fighting for more than something else.

I believe abortion is the killing of a human being. I won’t bring up the soul argument. You can argue that it wasn’t a baby. Fine. But it still has human DNA. And you killed it. Some Democratic leaders such as Schultz saying it’s okay to abort a 7 pound baby. I was born 2 pounds. I was born a month before my due date. I had complications. What if one of those babies aborted was me? I value a pro-life stance and I’ve mostly kept quiet on it. Those are my values.

I believe in personal liberty to own a firearm. I believe the second amendment grants citizens the ability to bear arms in case the state grows tyrannical. The gun is tied to American culture like how the katana is tied to Japanese culture - our cultures were shaped by these weapons. While guns were used to kill natives in genocide, they were also given to escaped slaves to fight for their freedom. Guns are empowerment.

I believe these things to be true. They are also things the left are vehemently against.

As a minority, you're now between a rock and a hard place. Choose your values or choose yourself. I believe my values will lead to a better America so I choose that. Maybe I changed or it is the left that changed. But they no longer are my values. The last year has seen to that.

But again, to reiterate, ideology != party. Conflating conservatism with being Republican is a part of the problem. Parties force blind allegiance. Ideology doesn’t. However, at this point the Republican Party is the closest to my ideals. Like I said, I’m going independent. I’ll still be voting for democrats that are worthy.

I’m sick of feeling helpless. Politics matter more than ever in America. I agree with everyone that says the Republican Party needs work on minority outreach. Which is why I’m going to find a way to stop feeling helpless. I’m studying for the GRE’s and applying to grad school to major in political science. My main concern? Advancement of black people. My top picks are Howard and UT. I will have more power if I am able to analyze politics beyond basic consumption of news, voting, and bitching. Hopefully after the last few years others feel similar.

[I'm a Puppy!]

Bring a shotgun to a F-16 fight brehs

[Phoenix Dark]

"I believe abortion is the killing of a human being"

but this is scientifically not true.

[Mandark]

*PD casts Summon Jaydub*

[Himu]

"I believe abortion is the killing of a human being"

but this is scientifically not true.

It has human dna. What is it then, a dog? When parents lose a fetus from a miscarriage do they not mourn? Scientifically, it’s not the same as a grown human being, but it has all of the components of a human being. At 8 weeks it has a heartbeat. It is a living being.

[Mandark]

It has human dna. What is it then, a dog? When parents lose a fetus from a miscarriage do they not mourn? Scientifically, it’s not the same as a grown human being, but it has all of the components of a human being. At 8 weeks it has a heartbeat. It is a living being.

[TakingBackSunday]

Cindi evolved into jaydub

[curly]

The gun is tied to American culture like how the katana is tied to Japanese culture - our cultures were shaped by these weapons

OK this has to be trolling

[shosta]

omg

[Phoenix Dark]

Cindi evolved into jaydub

No. Cindi merely adopted the crazy. JayDub was born in it, molded by it.

[Himu]

Sheriff: Deputy on duty at Parkland school never went inside to engage shooter

http://abc7ny.com/politics/sheriff-deputy-on-duty-at-parkland-school-never-went-inside/3125873/

The FBI didn’t do its job. The police department didn’t do its job. And the deputy at the school during the shooting didn’t do his job. But let’s put faith in the police. They’re the only ones who should have guns. This is the fault of gun laws.

Addendum: in America, police are obligated to protect you.

[Mandark]

Just as the Scottish psyche was formed and molded by the caber and the Jamaican by the blunt, so too was the American by the semiautomatic rifle.

[Himu]

Point —————————————


                           Your head

But it’s a liberal tactic to deflect when disagreement arises so I’m not shocked.

[Boogie]

Guns are empowerment.

Your shtick lately kinda reads like you'd be terrified to walk the streets without one.  That doesn't sound very empowering to me.

Speaking personally and professionally, carrying concealed is a pain in the ass.  I'm quite content not living in a society where I'd feel compelled out of fear/constant vigilance to carry off duty.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yea the well trained and qualified deputy didn't do his job. So let's have teachers do his job next time. 

[Mandark]

But it’s a liberal tactic to deflect when disagreement arises so I’m not shocked.

Look, if you want to throw women in jail for getting abortions and have the gym teacher strapped during dodgeball, that's fine, whatever.

But if you're going to adopt that tryhard "I SEE YOU REFUSE TO ENGAGE ME IN DEBATE" rhetoric, that's where I draw the line.

This is the Bore, lady. We can all get these jokes.

[shosta]

I'm in the middle of helping my mother put a restraining order on my dad and I'm fairly sure he can buy a gun in Nevada out of someone's trunk for a few hundred bones. She's afraid to walk to the bus station so I have to accompany her. Considering buying a gun for our protection because that's how arms escalation works. Repeal the 2nd amendment.

[Nintex]

Were all those people in the room paid actors or did they actually ask Donald Trump how to solve this issue.

'Murica doesn't need background checks on guns, they need background checks on voting. 

[Mandark]

Your shtick lately kinda reads like you'd be terrified to walk the streets without one.  That doesn't sound very empowering to me.

Like Triumph in the other thread, I understand Cindi's sense of vulnerability given the current political climate and the real risks given her demographic profile, and why she'd want to arm herself in response to that.

It's not just the idea that a gun would protect you, but that in a very tangible way you are taking control of the situation: rather than being at the mercy of outside forces, in a very literal sense your safety is now in your own hands. Aside from all the arguing about statistics, that has to be a deeply, deeply reassuring feeling for someone who's previously felt powerless and at the mercy of others. There's an appeal there that can't be replicated by arguing safety through a broadly more peaceful, less heavily armed society.

[Nola]

I value free speech and the left just doesn’t.

Ah yes, the old conservatives are champions of free speech argument:




- Should result in your immediate termination.


Quinnipiac poll from late last year.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/832708293516632065
- And who could forget that the current conservative mascot and president that has been steadily escalating an all out war on the 4th estate for decades.


https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/
- And lets not end this without talking about the most important speech any citizen has in a democracy and how conservatives feel about extending that speech to minorities and other undesirables.




But sure, the only real danger to free speech is niches of 19 year old liberals getting triggered about disingenuous partisan provocateurs speaking on their campuses.

[etiolate]

It is ineffective to getting reform done if the underlying intent is repealing the 2nd amendment. That's playing right into fears.

Like the cheering to Rubio's "you'd have to ban every semi-automatic rifle" comment might feel good to people here, but the cheering actually makes a whole lot of other people very wary.

[I'm a Puppy!]

And we call those people cowards.

[etiolate]

No, you're thinking of Mandark.

[Mandark]

hey et, do you remember reading an article on fox news about seth rich?

apparently they pulled it but some people think it might still be legit. sy hersh is involved somehow. any thoughts?

[etiolate]

I've given my thoughts. Several times. The idea stems from an Assange interview near the time of Richs' death. Not a Fox article. The Fox article only brought it back up.

So answer my question: Do you believe wikileaks is a Russian operation?

[seagrams hotsauce]

If ending the viability of something that has human DNA qualifies as an abortion, I have performed like a million abortions today alone

[Mandark]

nah the fox article makes some claims that are separate and go beyond anything that could be inferred from assange's interview, some of which tie in directly with that hersh tape

so you think the article is gonna pan out or nah?

[shosta]

Etiolate, there's the pragmatist and the activist. The activist has to say exactly what he believes so that he can gain followers over time and move the dialogue in his favor. If he doesn't encompass the ideal, that actually undermines progress in the conversion of society. The pragmatist, notably the politician, can never actually say what he believes, only what he thinks is the most achievable frontier. If he inches too far, he undermines practical progress and delays the cause for potentially decades. They're complementary roles.

[Mandark]

If ending the viability of something that has human DNA qualifies as an abortion, I have performed like a million abortions today alone

*bursts through a wall like Kool-Aid Man*

THOSE DON'T HAVE 46 CHROMOSOMES

[Himu]

It is ineffective to getting reform done if the underlying intent is repealing the 2nd amendment. That's playing right into fears.

Like the cheering to Rubio's "you'd have to ban every semi-automatic rifle" comment might feel good to people here, but the cheering actually makes a whole lot of other people very wary.

I will not be handing in my rifle. Not even my heirloom. What’s next, pistols? Pistols are my fave. Any talk of any ban raises my eyebrow. I will not turn in a single gun.

[Phoenix Dark]

What major pushes in congress from democrats are focusing on repealing the 2nd amendment?

[shosta]

I just remembered that around the time I joined this forum, Cindi was considering becoming a hooker. Why am I letting her get me riled up at all?

[kingv]

If ending the viability of something that has human DNA qualifies as an abortion, I have performed like a million abortions today alone

You got low T?

... what do you call something that has male dna? I know what they say at CPAC!

[Himu]

I value free speech and the left just doesn’t.

Ah yes, the old conservatives are champions of free speech argument:



(Image removed from quote.)
- Should result in your immediate termination.

(Image removed from quote.)
Quinnipiac poll from late last year.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/832708293516632065
- And who could forget that the current conservative mascot and president that has been steadily escalating an all out war on the 4th estate for decades.

(Image removed from quote.)
https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/
- And lets not end this without talking about the most important speech any citizen has in a democracy and how conservatives feel about extending that speech to minorities and other undesirables.




But sure, the only real danger to free speech is niches of 19 year old liberals getting triggered about disingenuous partisan provocateurs speaking on their campuses.

I don’t like trump specifically because of his war on the media. I think the reaction to Kaepernik is less,”they can’t do that” or more “they can do it but I disagree as to why.”

Let’s be real.

Most millennials do not value free speech. This is concerning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-chilling-study-shows-how-hostile-college-students-are-toward-free-speech/2017/09/18/cbb1a234-9ca8-11e7-9083-fbfddf6804c2_story.html

The left think it is just to jump people like Richard Spencer. Remember Punch A Nazi? I don’t see the right doing that. I said I don’t think the answer to neo Nazi’s was starting to get violent with them unprovoked and I was labeled a fascist sympathizer.

This extends to leftist companies such as Google killing voices they don’t agree with.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/21/youtube-google-advertising-policies-controversial-content

From Reset Era and NeoGaf down the line, people on the left are far more likely to censor speech in my personal experience. Conservatives may have disagreed with the NFL protests but the players were still allowed to do it (besides Kaep and he’s rightfully suing the NFL). That’s how the right operates for the most part.

Leftism is cancer for people who want to express themselves. I know personally.

Brb prepping my gulag.