US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP

[Tripon]

https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1137021709704466432

[VomKriege]

One Plus 7 viral campaign is top notch.

[VomKriege]

Let's settle for Nazi adjacent.

[BisMarckie]

One of them fought in the Nazi army but I'm sure you're going to give us a delightful spiel about that not meaning anything or, even better, a tedious taxonomic claim that only Nazi Party members could be Nazis.

A conscripted soldier from a lower middle class family from the most working class regions in all of Germany , who never received any awards or decorations or promotions . He was conscripted at age 19.
Are you trolling me?

[Occam]

One of them fought in the Nazi army but I'm sure you're going to give us a delightful spiel about that not meaning anything or, even better, a tedious taxonomic claim that only Nazi Party members could be Nazis.

A conscripted soldier from a lower middle class family from the most working class regions in all of Germany , who never received any awards or decorations or promotions . He was conscripted at age 19.
Are you trolling me?

Yeah, I was going to post the same thing.
During the course of WW2, virtually every able-bodied male German who didn't volunteer was conscripted (unless you were exempted because your civilian job was considered vital, which became increasingly rare as the war progressed). Karl Albrecht was born in 1920, so he was probably drafted in 1940 and sent to the front in 1941. Theo Albrecht was born in 1922, so he was probably drafted in 1941. This was not a voluntary thing you could choose not to do. The punishment for refusing to serve in the military was imprisonment (generally in a concentration camp) and often death (because of a Nazi law against "undermining military force").

[team filler]

[team filler]

 

[agrajag]

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1137454034447716355

[Boredfrom]

So is just political theater from both Obrador and Trump? 

[team filler]

[Cauliflower Of Love]

 

talk slower

[ToxicAdam]

One of them fought in the Nazi army but I'm sure you're going to give us a delightful spiel about that not meaning anything or, even better, a tedious taxonomic claim that only Nazi Party members could be Nazis.

A conscripted soldier from a lower middle class family from the most working class regions in all of Germany , who never received any awards or decorations or promotions . He was conscripted at age 19.
Are you trolling me?

Yeah, I was going to post the same thing.
During the course of WW2, virtually every able-bodied male German who didn't volunteer was conscripted (unless you were exempted because your civilian job was considered vital, which became increasingly rare as the war progressed). Karl Albrecht was born in 1920, so he was probably drafted in 1940 and sent to the front in 1941. Theo Albrecht was born in 1922, so he was probably drafted in 1941. This was not a voluntary thing you could choose not to do. The punishment for refusing to serve in the military was imprisonment (generally in a concentration camp) and often death (because of a Nazi law against "undermining military force").

To add onto this, every child of that era was indoctrinated into the party through the hitler youth program. They started at 10 years old and continued through their formative years. In 1936, there were 5 million members.

[shosta]

thread hasn't been this low since floptimus, or me saying I wanted to bomb syria

[agrajag]

One of them fought in the Nazi army but I'm sure you're going to give us a delightful spiel about that not meaning anything or, even better, a tedious taxonomic claim that only Nazi Party members could be Nazis.

A conscripted soldier from a lower middle class family from the most working class regions in all of Germany , who never received any awards or decorations or promotions . He was conscripted at age 19.
Are you trolling me?

Yeah, I was going to post the same thing.
During the course of WW2, virtually every able-bodied male German who didn't volunteer was conscripted (unless you were exempted because your civilian job was considered vital, which became increasingly rare as the war progressed). Karl Albrecht was born in 1920, so he was probably drafted in 1940 and sent to the front in 1941. Theo Albrecht was born in 1922, so he was probably drafted in 1941. This was not a voluntary thing you could choose not to do. The punishment for refusing to serve in the military was imprisonment (generally in a concentration camp) and often death (because of a Nazi law against "undermining military force").

To add onto this, every child of that era was indoctrinated into the party through the hitler youth program. They started at 10 years old and continued through their formative years. In 1936, there were 5 million members.

Nazisplaining 

[benjipwns]

Let's be clear, historically, you don't need to be a Nazi to be a German who wants to shoot people from other nations/ethnicities.

[agrajag]

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1137521124793823232

[Occam]

It's hard to accept that living in the Nazi Empire and doing Nazi things, like picking up a gun and shooting at Slavs and Jews makes you a Nazi. There are attempts to rationalize it, there are excuses, there are justifications, but we all bear the contradictions and crimes and history should and will judge us as such (if we reject great man theory). Unless you're Winston Churchill of course.

We live in a society, bottom text.

I presume that makes you a Trumpist.

[Occam]

While there is such a thing as collective (historical) responsibility, there is no such thing as collective guilt. That's an incredibly small-minded, binary, Reseteran way to look at history and society.

[Occam]

Of course being a member of the Wehrmacht didn't make you a Nazi. That's idiotic.

[shosta]

Who is the bigger loser: the guy making sure Nazi youth are adequately sympathized with, or the guy who careposts at him?

[benjipwns]

Who is the bigger loser: the guy making sure Nazi youth are adequately sympathized with, or the guy who careposts at him?

Kirsten Gillibrand

[agrajag]

Of course being a member of the Wehrmacht didn't make you a Nazi. That's idiotic.

Newsfeed

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1137459122792751105

 

[agrajag]

https://twitter.com/extremelysquid/status/1137374480525910021

[benjipwns]

the account doesn't exist anymore, now I'll never know the explanation they gave for spelling it "Facism" (which as anyone who reads internet comments know is actually the correct spelling)

[Mandark]

*catches up on last couple pages*

Well that was some brilliant satire of the right wing "you call everyone you disagree with a Nazi" routine.

[Cauliflower Of Love]

https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1137459122792751105

 

These are russians

[ToxicAdam]

It's hard to accept that living in the Nazi Empire and doing Nazi things, like picking up a gun and shooting at Slavs and Jews makes you a Nazi. There are attempts to rationalize it, there are excuses, there are justifications, but we all bear the contradictions and crimes and history should and will judge us as such (if we reject great man theory). Unless you're Winston Churchill of course.

We live in a society, bottom text.

Within this context, think about how many people you’ve bombed via drone in remote villages during your lifetime.


Blood’s on your hands now.

[agrajag]

some Olympic level mental gymnastics going on itt right now

[Mandark]

Dudes, if your great grandfather fought for Germany in WW2 but you still love him you can just say so.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1137521124793823232

https://twitter.com/TypsyC/status/1137742469217603585

[ToxicAdam]

It's hard to accept that living in the Nazi Empire and doing Nazi things, like picking up a gun and shooting at Slavs and Jews makes you a Nazi. There are attempts to rationalize it, there are excuses, there are justifications, but we all bear the contradictions and crimes and history should and will judge us as such (if we reject great man theory). Unless you're Winston Churchill of course.

We live in a society, bottom text.

Within this context, think about how many people you’ve bombed via drone in remote villages during your lifetime.


Blood’s on your hands now.

Agreed, I voted for Obama twice. I haven't personally gone and put on a uniform to shoot Yemeni people though, so there's my one saving grace.

If you were an 18 year old where all of society’s reward structure was pushing you in that direction ( and  you were drafted) you would’ve done it.

[ToxicAdam]

Dudes, if your great grandfather fought for Germany in WW2 but you still love him you can just say so.

God forbid there’s nuance when talking about history. Nope, it all has to be viewed through the same black/white prism we talk today. Every person and idea in a box,  so we can make cute quips about it and then drown in the likes.

[shosta]

You can't blame Mandark. All of The Bore's reward structure pushes him in that direction.

[james]

Who invited the nazis to this forum wtf

[team filler]

Who invited the nazis to this forum wtf

the zionists have always been welcome here, they even have their own special subforum 

[BisMarckie]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion

[BisMarckie]

I could have added a respectively in there but whatever helps you tie the knot on this current strain of relativism.

Dude, that was just a offhand joke. I reacted incredulous to Kara‘s statement because apparently we have very different definitions of the term Nazi. The broadly agreed upon one is a narrower definition which includes an ideological component.

Since you brought up your Indian heritage, I was born in Gdańsk and spent the first years of my life in Poland, I think I know a thing or two about the war since, you know, parts of my family were killed and I wrote my fucking PhD dissertation on the Kommissarbefehl and the involvement of.the Wehrmacht in war crimes in the Generalgouvernement.
Legally and morally it‘s not as cut and dry as you want it to appear. Entschuldigender Notstand for example is a legal construct that has to be accounted for, especially if you go away from the officer ranks to the simple soldiers we are talking about here.
 

[shosta]

I'm assigning an L for everyone in this thread except Mandark

[team filler]

 

[BisMarckie]

It‘s all good.   

[VomKriege]

I'm not sure I follow the idea that this specific argument has been settled long ago when it's been a major topic in a lot of the history research ? From the longtime popular myth of SS bad Wermacht ok , the legal defense of "following orders" to researching what a Police Reserve unit from Hamburg did in Poland to the endless academic and artistic musings on what ordinary German citizens knew, didn't knew or should have known, the level of knowledge about the Final Solution internationally at specific dates & the level of collective complicity, legal or symbolic.

Most of the disagreement here seems to be between a closed and open definition of a Nazi really. I can see arguments for both and the latter isn't that egregious, especially considering the Nazi purposefully established a distinct regime that the army was serving.

I mean as long as we can agree that many a German, regardless of convictions or awareness, perpetuated or was complicit in war crimes, ethnic cleansing and a variety of other horrible deeds, I'm not sure it's a huge issue.

[agrajag]

in Soviet Union it was common to refer to all those fighting on the Axis side as Nazis and Fascists. So leftists doing that in the modern day is highly on brand.

 

[team filler]

esch is punjabi? 

[Occam]

Most of the disagreement here seems to be between a closed and open definition of a Nazi really.

There is nothing else to disagree about. The Wehrmacht absolutely was complicit in the crimes of Hitler's regime, but not every individual soldier was.
Even at the hight of Hitler's popularity, there were those in Germany who opposed Nazi ideology. The same is true for the Wehrmacht. There were both Nazis and non-Nazis. Reality is nuanced. Referring to ALL German soldiers who served during WW2 as "Nazis" very much resembles the simplistic and stereotypical way the Nazis themselves categorized and judged entire nations and groups of people.

For what it's worth, this broad definition of "Nazi" where everyone who lived in Germany between 1933 and 1945 was a Nazi is at best a fringe view and demonstrates a rather unpleasant narrow-mindedness, extremism or severely limited understanding. It certainly is not the consesus.

Narrow definition:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nazi
Nazi
[ naht-see, nat- ]
|
noun, plural Na·zis.
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

Broader definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Nazi

Nazi noun
Na·​zi | \ ˈnät-sē How to pronounce Nazi (audio) , ˈnat- How to pronounce Nazi (audio) \
Definition of Nazi

1 : a member of a German fascist party controlling Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler

2 often not capitalized a : one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis : fascist
b : one who is likened to a German Nazi : a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person a grammar nazi

[BisMarckie]

Karl Albrecht annihilated.

SPD style social democrats are genetically wired to defend billionaires.

[Tasty]

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447608-biden-slumps-buttigieg-soars-6-takeaways-from-benchmark-iowa-poll

Biden's support is shaky

Sanders has a ceiling

Warren is on a growth trajectory

To be fair Warren hit Iowa early and hard.

[agrajag]

War-en ain't it, chief.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/ThiaBallerina/status/1137213773133934593

[Tasty]

I still <3 you filler.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/philosophrob/status/1137412823838072832

[Cauliflower Of Love]

she's a capitalist?

[benjipwns]

There is nothing else to disagree about. The Wehrmacht absolutely was complicit in the crimes of Hitler's regime, but not every individual soldier was.

While I sympathize with those conscripted into slavery, the regime invading, conquering and oppressing their neighbors was a crime too. The Wehrmacht may have been less involved in the specific crime known as the Holocaust (for a multitude of reasons including because they were seen as more untrustworthy than the SS to the Nazi higher ups) but they and their individual soldiers absolutely did contribute and were complicit in the rest of the crimes the Nazi's imposed on, at minimum, the continent of Europe.

I am, of course, always willing to grant waivers to individual cases as they are presented.

[shosta]

Can we get a picture of these waivers for reference? To avoid counterfeiting.

[benjipwns]

Offer only available to the first 5,000 followers of @BenjiSales.

[Joe Molotov]

Offer only available to the first 5,000 followers of @BenjiSales.

I wish The Bire reward structures weren't pushing me in this direction, but by gawd they are.

[team filler]

[Tasty]

she's a capitalist?

* Economic Patriot

[benjipwns]

Top Democrats tell "Axios on HBO" they expect Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez may eventually primary one of the two New York senators — Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer in 2022, or Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand in 2024.

[benjipwns]

speaking of Democrats and the Senate: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/447521-democrats-hope-some-presidential-candidates-drop-out-and-run-for-senate

Democrats facing a steep uphill climb to win back the Senate want Beto O’Rourke to reconsider his long-shot bid for president and take another look at running for the Senate in Texas, especially if his White House bid fails to pick up momentum.

They feel the same way about two other White House hopefuls who are polling at around 1 percent or lower: former Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper and Montana Gov. Steve Bullock.

...

Democratic senators won’t call out the low-polling presidential candidates by name in public, but they’re not shy about making the argument that some would do more for their party in Senate races than in the crowded presidential fight.

“The clock is running out for people who have not demonstrated any ability to mount a serious presidential bid to help make a real difference in their country by helping to turn the Senate,” said Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), articulating a sentiment that other Senate Democrats expressed privately. 

“It would be a shame if we elected a new president who faced the same enmity and obstruction in the Senate that Obama had to live through, all because a lot of candidates who had no shot wouldn’t run for winnable Senate seats,” he added.

...

Like Whitehouse, Senate Democratic Whip Dick Durbin (Ill.) said he also hopes that Democrats with long-shot presidential bids think more seriously about the Senate. But he warned they would have to be fully committed to win.

“We have a number of presidential aspirants who would make excellent senatorial candidates, but they first have to be committed to the race. I hope they’ll reach the point where it makes sense to them,” he said.

Durbin said “of course” there’s frustration among some of his colleagues that promising candidates have decided to run for president instead of the Senate.

...

A third Democratic senator, who requested anonymity to comment on internal caucus discussions, said, “There’s frustration among people who care about the majority.”