Author Topic: US Politics Thread |OT| SAD TRUMP  (Read 5454180 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

wsippel

  • Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8160 on: August 13, 2017, 10:14:25 AM »
How can socialists be far left and Nazis far right when Nazis were socialists?
Someone tell him about Strasser.

Otto or Gregor Strasser, the founders of the anti-capitalist wing of the NSDAP?
The wing which was purged in 1934? No need to be obtuse, you know what he means.

The wing wasn't purged, though. Gregor Strasser left the NSDAP because of his dispute with Goebbels, another founding member of the anti-capitalist wing, over their respective newspapers and was later executed in the Röhm coup 1934. Otto Strasser and some other hardliners from said wing left the NSDAP a few years before that, because the party was still too capitalist for their liking, and because the NSDAP didn't support Mahatma Ghandi. While Hitler and the NSDAP as a whole were more moderate than Strasser (or Goebbels for that matter), it was still a socialist party.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8161 on: August 13, 2017, 12:10:39 PM »
It was not a socialist party. By any true accounting of the facts. Hitler himself denounced Marxism and even voiced how he wished he had changed the socialist name of his party to something else.

Economics was and is always secondary to fascist groups. It seemed to always be a tool in the aim of the more primary goals of concentration of power. In practice though most fascist governments took on the form of a corporatist and corruptly subsidized arrangement with private business. Often promising to protect certain industries and prop them up. Collective bargaining and unions had no power under the Nazis. The power was conferred to the regime and then to a select group of ever more powerful corporate entities. Big corporations the nazi regime favored ended up with a close and favored arrangement.

Not sure how anyone could look at what came out from the Nazis and conclude they were practicing or striving socialists.

wsippel

  • Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8162 on: August 13, 2017, 12:34:51 PM »
It was not a socialist party. By any true accounting of the facts. Hitler himself denounced Marxism and even voiced how he wished he had changed the socialist name of his party to something else.

Economics was and is always secondary to fascist groups. It seemed to always be a tool in the aim of the more primary goals of concentration of power. In practice though most fascist governments took on the form of a corporatist and corruptly subsidized arrangement with private business. Often promising to protect certain industries and prop them up. Collective bargaining and unions had no power under the Nazis. The power was conferred to the regime and then to a select group of ever more powerful corporate entities. Big corporations the nazi regime favored ended up with a close and favored arrangement.

Not sure how anyone could look at what came out from the Nazis and conclude they were practicing or striving socialists.

They were both socialist and anti-Marxist. Those two things are by no means mutually exclusive. Marxism is internationalist socialism, whereas national socialism is, well, nationalist. And that's exactly where a multi-axial political spectrum comes into play: On a three axis spectrum (liberal - authoritarian, nationalist - internationalist and capitalist - communist), the Nazis and the Soviets shared two rough positions, but were at opposite ends of the spectrum on the third axis.

Huff

  • stronger ties you have, more power you gain
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8163 on: August 13, 2017, 03:14:07 PM »
Spencer rented out space and will be at UF in September. So glad all my family and friends have finally graduated and wont be around in case anything goes down

Quote
Dear Campus Community,
The National Policy Institute has reached out to the university to reserve space for a  speaking event featuring white nationalist and “alt-right” activist Richard Spencer on September 12.

This organization is unaffiliated with the university, and no student groups or other groups affiliated with the university are sponsoring this speech. This event is not finalized and it is still under discussion.

Per university regulation 2.004, non-university groups, organizations and persons may rent space on campus, provided they cover rental expenses and security costs like all other third-party renters.

UF administration, staff and campus police are developing a security plan for the potential event and are working with colleagues across the country who have had similar events on their campus.

For many in our community, including myself, this speaker’s presence would be deeply  disturbing. What we’ve watched happen in Charlottesville, VA. in the last 24 hours, is deplorable. I again denounce all statements and symbols of hate. The University of Florida is a community of learners, educators and scholars. We encourage open and honest dialogue, and we strive to build an inclusive environment where hate is not welcome.

While this speaker’s views do not align with our values as an institution, we must follow the law, upholding the First Amendment not to discriminate based on content and provide access to a public space.

Though we have a  responsibility as a public university, we also have a vital duty to our  students, faculty and staff to uphold our educational mission.
Instead of allowing hateful speech to tear us down, I urge our campus community to join  together, respect one another and promote positive speech, while allowing for differing opinions. These types of groups want media attention. I encourage our campus community to send a message of unity by not engaging with this group and giving them more media attention for their message of intolerance and hate.

It is up to every student, faculty member, staff member, and myself to demonstrate our  university values of respect and inclusion in all that we do. We have an  opportunity to lead the way.

We will continue to keep you updated as more information develops through email and our information line: 1-866-UF-Facts.

Warm Regards,
W. Kent Fuchs
President, University of Florida
dur

Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8164 on: August 13, 2017, 04:30:45 PM »
Fuck that, he absolutely does not have the right anymore. His group assaulted a bunch of women and children and plowed into a group of demonstrators full speed. Keep him the fuck out.
Hi

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8165 on: August 13, 2017, 05:09:32 PM »
At least Hillary the warmonger/private prison supporter isn't in office guys  :doge
010

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8166 on: August 13, 2017, 06:52:04 PM »
Hopefully Trump's actions show many that trusting the state is silly. We now have a situation where white nationalists have committed domestic terrorism for all to see and the president won't denounce it despite pressure to do so, even from Republican's. If the won't denounce white nationalism then how can I expect them to protect us? If they can't protect us why are so many liberals still anti-gun? You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to still be anti-gun at this point. I'm curious how the Democratic Party will react. They'll probably continue trying to take guns out of vulnerable citizens hands all while having a government that will not stand for its citizens in the face of bigotry.
IYKYK

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8167 on: August 13, 2017, 06:53:29 PM »
It was not a socialist party. By any true accounting of the facts. Hitler himself denounced Marxism and even voiced how he wished he had changed the socialist name of his party to something else.

Economics was and is always secondary to fascist groups. It seemed to always be a tool in the aim of the more primary goals of concentration of power. In practice though most fascist governments took on the form of a corporatist and corruptly subsidized arrangement with private business. Often promising to protect certain industries and prop them up. Collective bargaining and unions had no power under the Nazis. The power was conferred to the regime and then to a select group of ever more powerful corporate entities. Big corporations the nazi regime favored ended up with a close and favored arrangement.

Not sure how anyone could look at what came out from the Nazis and conclude they were practicing or striving socialists.

They were both socialist and anti-Marxist. Those two things are by no means mutually exclusive. Marxism is internationalist socialism, whereas national socialism is, well, nationalist. And that's exactly where a multi-axial political spectrum comes into play: On a three axis spectrum (liberal - authoritarian, nationalist - internationalist and capitalist - communist), the Nazis and the Soviets shared two rough positions, but were at opposite ends of the spectrum on the third axis.

What is your argument for categorizing them as primarily socialists, as opposed to other identities? Especially economically?

To me, whether you define socialism in the strict textbook sense of social ownership and democratic control of industry, or the more modern post-war nordic style socialism, neither IMO appropriately fits the category of the economic system Nazi Germany organized themselves around.

Which as I said, kinda makes sense because Hitler was not striving for any particular economic utopia, he had some vague guiding principles that seemed to have roots in many different philosophies and populism of the time, and it seemed to just be a means to the larger end of consolidating power, building up the German empire, furthering his social/geopolitical agenda, and maintaining that power structure. So you saw him simultaneously advocating a sort of social darwinism, moderately strong individual property rights, while offering to continue support for certain welfare initiatives and then cutting the legs out from labor while running business and industry in a sort of corporatist arrangement. Forcing trade relations into a perverse mercantilist arrangement organized around the nazi agenda. Demanding ultimate control of the monopolistic industries he fostered, using some marxist style arguments for that action, sure, but seemingly only because it was the path of least resistance at times to allowing him the control he wanted to direct the German empire and further his military and social agenda. Which is my larger point that there was no real guiding economic philosophy Hitler and the nazis strived for that I could find, economic policy and philosophies was seemingly just a means to an end of the primary agenda of their form of ethnic cleansing and fascism. And when something came in conflict with that agenda it almost always lost out.

I get what you are saying about not thinking about things on a two dimensional line, but the premise that nazis were closest to socialists is kinda hard to buy into on close examination.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 07:08:32 PM by Nola »

fistfulofmetal

  • RAPTOR
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8168 on: August 13, 2017, 07:05:34 PM »
Hopefully Trump's actions show many that trusting the state is silly. We now have a situation where white nationalists have committed domestic terrorism for all to see and the president won't denounce it despite pressure to do so, even from Republican's. If the won't denounce white nationalism then how can I expect them to protect us? If they can't protect us why are so many liberals still anti-gun? You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to still be anti-gun at this point. I'm curious how the Democratic Party will react. They'll probably continue trying to take guns out of vulnerable citizens hands all while having a government that will not stand for its citizens in the face of bigotry.

Jesus Christ did you really take all of this, spin it around against liberals and then spout Republican bullshit rhetoric about the the left taking your guns away? For fucks sake.
nat

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8169 on: August 13, 2017, 07:10:41 PM »
This entire thing kind of reminds me of the Donald Sterling incident, where after getting away with being racist in very effective/institutional ways for decades, suddenly everyone rallied to condemn him for the leaked audio of him talking shit about Magic Johnson. Likewise the media used to have a pretty dismissive take on the alt right, and spent more time complimenting their wardrobes than discussing their (racist) ideology until...well, now. It takes a big blow up for people to be forced to say "oh wow this is terrible."

I just wonder if it'll last. If they go back to marching somewhat peacefully and dressing dapper, will the media simply forget and go back to the "both sides; calling people Nazis is hyperbolic" position? Or will there be a long lasting shift in perspective and coverage.

The obvious next step: Bannon. If you agree the alt right is a problem, surely you're gonna be outraged about a white supremacist sympathizer being in the president's ear daily?
010

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8170 on: August 13, 2017, 07:24:35 PM »
Hopefully Trump's actions show many that trusting the state is silly. We now have a situation where white nationalists have committed domestic terrorism for all to see and the president won't denounce it despite pressure to do so, even from Republican's. If the won't denounce white nationalism then how can I expect them to protect us? If they can't protect us why are so many liberals still anti-gun? You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to still be anti-gun at this point. I'm curious how the Democratic Party will react. They'll probably continue trying to take guns out of vulnerable citizens hands all while having a government that will not stand for its citizens in the face of bigotry.

Jesus Christ did you really take all of this, spin it around against liberals and then spout Republican bullshit rhetoric about the the left taking your guns away? For fucks sake.

Yeah, not sure what more guns would do to deter or stop someone driving a Dodge challenger into a crowd. Or how the gun debate has much bearing on this incident?

If the question is whether a highly armed populace is preferable in terms of safety of its citizenry, primarily its vulnerable minority population, to a minimally armed and more highly gun controlled society, there is no real debate. The literature may not be conclusive, but it is pretty overwhelming to one side.


Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8171 on: August 13, 2017, 07:57:59 PM »
This entire thing kind of reminds me of the Donald Sterling incident, where after getting away with being racist in very effective/institutional ways for decades, suddenly everyone rallied to condemn him for the leaked audio of him talking shit about Magic Johnson. Likewise the media used to have a pretty dismissive take on the alt right, and spent more time complimenting their wardrobes than discussing their (racist) ideology until...well, now. It takes a big blow up for people to be forced to say "oh wow this is terrible."

I just wonder if it'll last. If they go back to marching somewhat peacefully and dressing dapper, will the media simply forget and go back to the "both sides; calling people Nazis is hyperbolic" position? Or will there be a long lasting shift in perspective and coverage.

The obvious next step: Bannon. If you agree the alt right is a problem, surely you're gonna be outraged about a white supremacist sympathizer being in the president's ear daily?

I was gonna say something like this, that despite the tragedy, it is at least somewhat reassuring to see the large norms on either side of the political spectrum condemning strong violent acts of racism still seem to be mostly in tact. Not that the cracks(our president) that are clearly there and trending aren't concerning.

With that said, I tend to think a different but more cynical version will likely happen unfortunately. Because I suspect what is going to happen is that while mainstream outlets will take the tone you said, in the alternative media of places like Breit Bart, Fox News, 4chan, right-wing blogs, Facebook feeds, and talk radio, where large swaths of people on the right primarily see politics, there is right now a bunch of low hanging fruit that you know is going to be grabbed for by many of these morally bankrupt institutions. The whataboutsims, false equivalencies, blame shifting, and alternative narratives to assuage any potential guilty conscience, self-reflection, and period of unity so they can get back to what is profitable for them which is selling tribalism, hate, and their particular niche of harmful right-wing politics. And that is going to spill over eventually IMO, like a slow acting poison.

 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:03:08 PM by Nola »

Boredfrom

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8172 on: August 13, 2017, 08:31:58 PM »
This entire thing kind of reminds me of the Donald Sterling incident, where after getting away with being racist in very effective/institutional ways for decades, suddenly everyone rallied to condemn him for the leaked audio of him talking shit about Magic Johnson. Likewise the media used to have a pretty dismissive take on the alt right, and spent more time complimenting their wardrobes than discussing their (racist) ideology until...well, now. It takes a big blow up for people to be forced to say "oh wow this is terrible."

I just wonder if it'll last. If they go back to marching somewhat peacefully and dressing dapper, will the media simply forget and go back to the "both sides; calling people Nazis is hyperbolic" position? Or will there be a long lasting shift in perspective and coverage.

The obvious next step: Bannon. If you agree the alt right is a problem, surely you're gonna be outraged about a white supremacist sympathizer being in the president's ear daily?

Well, in this case there were actual nazis and people carrying flags with swastikas or their KKK attire. Very difficult to say "both sides" in something as blatant as this and more easy to hear recognize the  dog whistling of Trump words,

bluemax

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8173 on: August 13, 2017, 08:40:42 PM »
This entire thing kind of reminds me of the Donald Sterling incident, where after getting away with being racist in very effective/institutional ways for decades, suddenly everyone rallied to condemn him for the leaked audio of him talking shit about Magic Johnson. Likewise the media used to have a pretty dismissive take on the alt right, and spent more time complimenting their wardrobes than discussing their (racist) ideology until...well, now. It takes a big blow up for people to be forced to say "oh wow this is terrible."

I just wonder if it'll last. If they go back to marching somewhat peacefully and dressing dapper, will the media simply forget and go back to the "both sides; calling people Nazis is hyperbolic" position? Or will there be a long lasting shift in perspective and coverage.

The obvious next step: Bannon. If you agree the alt right is a problem, surely you're gonna be outraged about a white supremacist sympathizer being in the president's ear daily?

There's a Twitter movement that started this weekend to try and get Bannon fired, with a lot of people calling him President Bannon (a theory I've felt has some validity before). How long and far this movement goes will be worth watching, but certainly getting Bannon out of the White House is a big thing.
NO

Great Rumbler

  • Dab on the sinners
  • Global Moderator
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8174 on: August 13, 2017, 10:00:01 PM »
There's a Twitter movement that started this weekend to try and get Bannon fired, with a lot of people calling him President Bannon (a theory I've felt has some validity before). How long and far this movement goes will be worth watching, but certainly getting Bannon out of the White House is a big thing.

Word is that Kelly wants Bannon out and is actively working to achieve that goal, but I dunno if Trump is willing to kick him into the bushes.
dog

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8175 on: August 13, 2017, 10:37:23 PM »


Well, in this case there were actual nazis and people carrying flags with swastikas or their KKK attire. Very difficult to say "both sides" in something as blatant as this and more easy to hear recognize the  dog whistling of Trump words,

Looks like we will get a chance to test your hypothesis, because it sure looks like a good chunk of the right-wing media chamber is going to make a run at it:











And the always lovely Info Wars:
spoiler (click to show/hide)




[close]

To be fair, some places like The Daily Caller and Fox News seem to be taking the angle of "see, Trump did condemn them you unhinged leftists," and "look how presidential this guy is!" But my own hypothesis is that pretty soon they too will be on the whataboutism train, and I personally do not have high confidence in the followers of the right staying woke so to speak, at least not for too much longer. Since they will primarily filter this issue through that network of media. But I'm a cynical bastard that lives in the south, so I hope I am just letting my surroundings and cynicism poison my outlook.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:41:41 PM by Nola »

Boredfrom

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8176 on: August 14, 2017, 12:30:14 AM »


Well, in this case there were actual nazis and people carrying flags with swastikas or their KKK attire. Very difficult to say "both sides" in something as blatant as this and more easy to hear recognize the  dog whistling of Trump words,

Looks like we will get a chance to test your hypothesis, because it sure looks like a good chunk of the right-wing media chamber is going to make a run at it:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

And the always lovely Info Wars:
spoiler (click to show/hide)




[close]

To be fair, some places like The Daily Caller and Fox News seem to be taking the angle of "see, Trump did condemn them you unhinged leftists," and "look how presidential this guy is!" But my own hypothesis is that pretty soon they too will be on the whataboutism train, and I personally do not have high confidence in the followers of the right staying woke so to speak, at least not for too much longer. Since they will primarily filter this issue through that network of media. But I'm a cynical bastard that lives in the south, so I hope I am just letting my surroundings and cynicism poison my outlook.

What hypothesis? Didn't say that this was not going to be shrugged off by the usual suspects, just that the mainstream media and the current bipartisan politics agree that Trump did a mistake because there little cover up in the case of neo nazis and KKK. Breitbart, Drudge and InfoWars are still fringe.

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8177 on: August 14, 2017, 01:05:38 AM »


What hypothesis? Didn't say that this was not going to be shrugged off by the usual suspects, just that the mainstream media and the current bipartisan politics agree that Trump did a mistake because there little cover up in the case of neo nazis and KKK. Breitbart, Drudge and InfoWars are still fringe.
The hypothesis comment was really just tongue in cheek. More meant to just segue way into highlighting the absurdity that of course the echo chamber is already trying to push that "both sides" narrative that no morally responsible person would push.

I was only going on to say that personally my cynicism, and seeing this cycle play out in the past of: Breitbart/rightwing blogs/Infowars => talk radio => Fox News => New poll shows overwhelming majority of registered Republicans doubt president's birthplace - I can't escape the sense that this sort of bi-partisan condemnation in more mainstream right-wing media will be short lived. As will the condemnation of Trump's initial response.

Boredfrom

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8178 on: August 14, 2017, 01:12:24 AM »


What hypothesis? Didn't say that this was not going to be shrugged off by the usual suspects, just that the mainstream media and the current bipartisan politics agree that Trump did a mistake because there little cover up in the case of neo nazis and KKK. Breitbart, Drudge and InfoWars are still fringe.
The hypothesis comment was really just tongue in cheek. More meant to just segue way into highlighting the absurdity that of course the echo chamber is already trying to push that "both sides" narrative that no morally responsible person would push.

I was only going on to say that personally my cynicism, and seeing this cycle play out in the past of: Breitbart/rightwing blogs/Infowars => talk radio => Fox News => New poll shows overwhelming majority of registered Republicans doubt president's birthplace - I can't escape the sense that this sort of bi-partisan condemnation in more mainstream right-wing media will be short lived. As will the condemnation of Trump's initial response.

Then again, even Trump doesn't dare anymore to question (at least in public) Obama's birth place. Who knows, I agree with your cynicism, but it also feels that Trump is genuinely bleeding out support. Or at least I hope so...

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8179 on: August 14, 2017, 01:24:38 AM »


What hypothesis? Didn't say that this was not going to be shrugged off by the usual suspects, just that the mainstream media and the current bipartisan politics agree that Trump did a mistake because there little cover up in the case of neo nazis and KKK. Breitbart, Drudge and InfoWars are still fringe.
The hypothesis comment was really just tongue in cheek. More meant to just segue way into highlighting the absurdity that of course the echo chamber is already trying to push that "both sides" narrative that no morally responsible person would push.

I was only going on to say that personally my cynicism, and seeing this cycle play out in the past of: Breitbart/rightwing blogs/Infowars => talk radio => Fox News => New poll shows overwhelming majority of registered Republicans doubt president's birthplace - I can't escape the sense that this sort of bi-partisan condemnation in more mainstream right-wing media will be short lived. As will the condemnation of Trump's initial response.

Then again, even Trump doesn't dare anymore to question (at least in public) Obama's birth place. Who knows, I agree with your cynicism, but it also feels that Trump is genuinely bleeding out support. Or at least I hope so...

On that front, I guess even in my cynicism, I am hopeful that an event like this, even if the vast majority of Republicans get swallowed up by the spin and "both sides" attempt over the coming days, that it will continue that ongoing process of death by a thousand cuts. Bleeding out just enough of his already frail electoral coalition over time. Like you say.









Trent Dole

  • the sharpest tool in the shed
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8181 on: August 14, 2017, 02:56:16 AM »
OK, Caitlyn. :P
Hi

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8182 on: August 14, 2017, 04:12:00 AM »
I'll still wait to see what Fox News's social justice coverage looks like by Wednesday or Thursday before I start handing out the gold stars  :lol


zomgee

  • We've *all*
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8184 on: August 14, 2017, 07:15:05 AM »
Eeeeeenh citation needed. Godaddy was going to suspend them today anyway.
rub


Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8186 on: August 14, 2017, 09:18:13 AM »
Alt Right is still a stupid, nebulous term that no one actually has a set definition for. Any random right leaning person is now alt right and it means nothing.

'alt right' is just a premeditated abdication of responsibility by mainstream rightists. When shit goes down, they can say that the alt right doesn't represent them.
©ZH

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8187 on: August 14, 2017, 09:35:51 AM »
OK, Caitlyn. :P

I'm not by any estimation, remotely conservative. If you think fighting Nazis in America is about being left or right, you're a dumbass. Anyone who is in the fight against these fucks is my friend. The one good thing about this weekend is how for the first time in a long time, the country is united in condemnation. We have a white man killing people and conservatives finally called it what it was: white supremacy and domestic terorrism. No buts. No ifs. No whataboutism. Finally, everyone is on the same page. I don't know about you, but that's what we've been fighting for and I will consider that a victory.

Or, you know, be a partisan dumbass like you're being now.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:40:30 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8188 on: August 14, 2017, 10:44:15 AM »
If you've been paying attention conservatives are pressuring Trump to denounce the attacks, call it white nationalism/supremacy by its name, AND call it domestic terrorism. I don't know about you, but I've been sick and tired of the media and conservatives calling violent white dudes misguided or whatever. But now they finally call it for what it is, while also taking real action by trying to pressure the president to call it for what it is.

The fact that liberals and conservatives both agree about this subject and the country is united and the only ones who are denying it is the president and his disgusting base gives me hope.

But yeah, let's keep pretending all conservatives are the same and be a dumbass.

I'll be over here pumping my fist. Finally, after years of apathy, white conservatives are willing to call a cac a terrorist. :rejoice There's some progress in this dark night. The suns light ekes over the mountain, but still we climb, onward. :rejoice
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8189 on: August 14, 2017, 10:49:05 AM »
If there's another white dude who kills minorities for sport and hate conservatives and media might now denounce it as it is rather than humanize them since there is now a precedent.

Sweet baby Jesus I can dream. :lawd
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8190 on: August 14, 2017, 10:57:38 AM »
Another positive? Conservatives dismissed white nationalism and its rise for years. They are now forced to deal with it. Before, it wasn't taken seriously and was outright dismissed. But now they can't afford not taking it seriously now because to do so will be percieved of being sympathetic to it. There is now potential for them to listen to us and for them to try to understand our point.

Lots of bad this weekend, but a whole bunch of good. Finally there's hope for America! :lawd :tocry  :salute

I feel like you're getting ahead of yourself, but ok.

If you cannot see this as a shift change, I don't know what to tell you but if I see food I'm gonna eat. This is a fantastic opportunity.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 11:03:57 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Steve Contra

  • Bought a lemon tree straight cash
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8191 on: August 14, 2017, 11:31:31 AM »
Dylan Roof killed nine people just two years ago. Don't get your hopes up for too much introspection from the right on this.
vin

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8192 on: August 14, 2017, 11:37:36 AM »
And don't forget that almost every time a police officer gets charged with killing an unarmed black man, there's no conviction. People just have too much racial fear and we're far away from seeing a kumbaya moment happening.

Madrun Badrun

  • twin-anused mascot
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8193 on: August 14, 2017, 11:57:24 AM »
militia movement in the 70s-90s

Not to mention how the right seemed pretty pro Bundy during their standoffs and over all it seemed like good press for the anti-goverment nuts.  I do think people forget that this will lead to more home grown terrorism - which doesn't seem that terrifying when its white people doing it. 

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8194 on: August 14, 2017, 12:53:00 PM »
And don't forget that almost every time a police officer gets charged with killing an unarmed black man, there's no conviction. People just have too much racial fear and we're far away from seeing a kumbaya moment happening.
Thanks Obama.

Idk, people seem to forget about the white supremacy/militia movement in the 70s-90s that was pretty strong and culminated in the OKC bombing.
That was when Bill Clinton infamously said "you can't say you love your country and hate your government." Something Trump aka America haters seem to forget.

I'd argue it culminated in Waco and Ruby Ridge. McVeigh wasn't involved in the militia movement, nor a white supremacist. He was angry about the Gulf War after coming back from it with little job prospects and a gambling addiction, and that spread with Waco and Ruby Ridge into a general anger at the federal government.  Terry Nichols took advantage of that, he had more ties to the militia and white supremacists groups but that was more out of joint local gun groups they were all members of, but even he was mostly an anti-government nutter of the whole "sent a letter renouncing his citizenship and stopped paying taxes" type.

The even less funny part was when the Unabomber also got wrapped into that media narrative. Despite being a very distinctly different type of crazy.

Prior to Waco/Ruby Ridge, the militia movement was mostly harmless as it was made up of a lot of the whole "go off the grid" types who would move out into the woods after renouncing citizenship to stop paying their minor taxes. The Moderate Darlings™ were using their own paranoia into making them to be more than they ever were. It's funny how much the FBI and IRS has wasted resources on these groups (who generally had no possibility of paying them back) while ignoring some of the actually active groups because of the danger it would require. The Hutaree being the most recent example where the arrest got tons of Moderate Darling™ coverage to no end. Meanwhile, the Justice Department had to wind up giving them millions of rounds of ammunition and most of their weapons back (they had illegally modified some weapons that Justice destroyed and was the only reason any of them got post-trial sentences, due to pre-trial pleas...of probation) after the botched from the start investigation/setup and prosecution.

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8195 on: August 14, 2017, 01:27:49 PM »
According to the right, McVeigh was a leftist.
©ZH

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8196 on: August 14, 2017, 01:32:33 PM »
Trump's Twitter is a much clearer window into his mind than prepared speeches. Let's see what he has to tweet in the coming days.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8197 on: August 14, 2017, 01:34:35 PM »
Trump actually called out the KKK, neo Nazis, and white supremacists as evil racist thugs  :gladbron Couldn't have condemned them any harder. Thankfully someone in that administration has some sense to talk into him.

Link
IYKYK

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8198 on: August 14, 2017, 01:44:45 PM »
McVeigh was absolutely part of the militia movement, and was a white supremacist. The heck, benji? Elohim City, breh. Nichols was to some degree more into the militia part, but to say McVeigh wasn't involved in either is silly. A dude who regularly quoted The Turner Diaries wasn't a white supremacist?  :larry


McVeigh was reprimanded by the military for purchasing a "White Power" T-shirt at a Ku Klux Klan protest against black servicemen who wore "Black Power" T-shirts around a Military installation (primarily Army).[17]
Yeah, he was protesting "hypocrisy" of others by being a hyperbolic jerk about it. But he never involved himself in either movement. He was a transient after coming back to the U.S. which is why he wound up all over the place. He never was connected to the Elohim City based robbery. His interest in The Turner Diaries was the violence, those were the parts he referenced, highlighted and kept on him. Even in his post incarceration polemics and biography he never mentioned race outside of a "hypocritical to want equality and affirmative action" stance in one of his interviews when asked.

He was a propaganda of the deed anarchist. To the point that he left all sorts of anti-government groups and people the FBI was watching because all they did was talk while he wanted a plan of action. There's even a dubious story of him in the one book on the bombing that regarded him leaving a white supremacist related organization because the FBI instigator was pushing the "START THE RACE WAR" aspect too much which the rest of the group got behind which McVeigh thought entirely unrealistic and pointless compared to something simple like a bombing.

Quote from: Timothy McVeigh
If people say The Turner Diaries was my Bible, Unintended Consequences would be my New Testament. I think Unintended Consequences is a better book. It might have changed my whole plan of operation if I'd read that one first.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8199 on: August 14, 2017, 01:47:16 PM »
Trump actually called out the KKK, neo Nazis, and white supremacists as evil racist thugs  :gladbron Couldn't have condemned them any harder. Thankfully someone in that administration has some sense to talk into him.

Link
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-protest.html
Quote
“Racism is evil,” Mr. Trump said. “And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the K.K.K., neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8200 on: August 14, 2017, 01:48:00 PM »
one step forward, three hundred steps back: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08/14/trump-seriously-considering-pardon-for-sheriff-joe-arpaio.html
Quote
“I am seriously considering a pardon for Sheriff Arpaio,” the president said Sunday, during a conversation with Fox News at his club in Bedminster, N.J. “He has done a lot in the fight against illegal immigration. He’s a great American patriot and I hate to see what has happened to him.”

Trump said the pardon could happen in the next few days, should he decide to do so.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8201 on: August 14, 2017, 01:50:04 PM »
Quote
Robert Ritchie may end up challenging Democratic Sen. Debbie Stabenow next year, but his stage name, Kid Rock, may not be allowed to appear on the ballot in Michigan.

Kid Rock is a household name to Americans under the age of 50, and voters might be attracted to vote for him as a middle finger to the political establishment. But it’s not immediately clear whether his famous stage name would appear on the ballot or if he’d be required to run under his less-known given name.

If Ritchie were to submit enough valid signatures to make the ballot and indicated that he wanted to be listed as “Kid Rock,” the Michigan Bureau of Elections staff would have to research the question of whether that name would be allowed. At an initial glance, Ritchie’s stage name isn’t an obviously acceptable name under the state’s criteria.
...
But according to the rules, candidates may not use a “nickname that is not a recognized diminutive of the candidate’s given name.”
:usacry

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8202 on: August 14, 2017, 01:51:06 PM »
Dylan Roof killed nine people just two years ago. Don't get your hopes up for too much introspection from the right on this.

I'm not sure what your point is/you're proving my point? In my naturally black person elephant memory, I know for a fact the media humanized Dylan Roof.

There were reports like this that black people have been echoing for years.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/king-white-mass-shooters-called-terrorists-article-1.2454528
https://www.thecut.com/2015/12/white-male-murderers-planned-parenthood-robert-dear.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/call-the-charleston-church-shooting-what-it-is-terrorism/

Real talk: we (people of color) have been fighting this for years. Any time a white person does an act of terror, it was never called for what it was.

And finally, justice comes waving its banner when we needed it most. No media sympathy. No conservative sympathy from people aren't already Nazi sympathizers.

This battle, we won. :rejoice

And don't forget that almost every time a police officer gets charged with killing an unarmed black man, there's no conviction. People just have too much racial fear and we're far away from seeing a kumbaya moment happening.

Said nothing of Kumbaya. It doesn't mean that police will start getting convicted, but there's much hope that the media sympathy for white terrorists is over, at least for now. This is massive.

Trump actually called out the KKK, neo Nazis, and white supremacists as evil racist thugs  :gladbron Couldn't have condemned them any harder. Thankfully someone in that administration has some sense to talk into him.

I don't think sense has anything to do with it. It seems that there was so much pressure he caved. His own principles or lack thereof have not much to do with it.

Who cares about the why.
IYKYK

TakingBackSunday

  • Banana Grabber
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8203 on: August 14, 2017, 01:51:17 PM »
one step forward, three hundred steps back: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08/14/trump-seriously-considering-pardon-for-sheriff-joe-arpaio.html
Quote
“I am seriously considering a pardon for Sheriff Arpaio,” the president said Sunday, during a conversation with Fox News at his club in Bedminster, N.J. “He has done a lot in the fight against illegal immigration. He’s a great American patriot and I hate to see what has happened to him.”

Trump said the pardon could happen in the next few days, should he decide to do so.

fucking jesus
püp

Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8204 on: August 14, 2017, 01:51:31 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08/14/trump-seriously-considering-pardon-for-sheriff-joe-arpaio.html

Quote
EXCLUSIVE: President Trump may soon issue a pardon for Joe Arpaio, the colorful former Arizona sheriff who was found guilty two weeks ago of criminal contempt for defying a state judge’s order to stop traffic patrols targeting suspected undocumented immigrants. In his final years as Maricopa County sheriff, Arpaio had emerged as a leading opponent of illegal immigration.

Edit: looks like Benji beat me to the punch.

Like I said yesterday, I would be patient before drawing some sweeping conclusions that some sort of corner has been turned with the right or Trump. There is a lot of money and support tied up in fanning racial flames and sowing tribal partisan hatred. Since yesterday it has been a non-stop onslaught of whataboutisms and false equivelncies on the right wing media right below the Fox/Washington Times mainstream. And their reach and influence I think is understated. Breit Bart's traffic nears that of foxnews.com.

And arguably, I would say the sort of condemnation of the extreme elements while normalizing and slowly sowing racial sentiments in the mainstream by actions like this is perhaps just as harmful. Because that offers that faux coverage to ignore their own racism and prejudice as it inches rightward.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:06:05 PM by Nola »

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8205 on: August 14, 2017, 02:08:04 PM »
btw, Arapio wasn't even likely to go to jail and was convicted of contempt of court:
Quote
Arpaio, 85, was convicted by U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton of misdemeanor contempt of court for willfully disregarding an Arizona judge’s order in 2011 to stop the anti-immigrant traffic patrols. Arpaio had maintained the law enforcement patrols for 17 months thereafter.

The man who built a controversial national reputation as “America’s toughest sheriff” admitted he prolonged his patrols, but insisted he did not intend to break the law because one of his former attorneys did not explain to him the full measure of restrictions contained in the court order.

He is expected to be sentenced on Oct. 5 and could face up to six months in jail. However, since he is 85 years old and has no prior convictions, some attorneys doubt he will receive any jail time.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8206 on: August 14, 2017, 02:09:45 PM »
Quote
Reached Monday for reaction to the possible pardon, Arpaio expressed surprise that Trump was aware of his legal predicament.

“I am happy he understands the case,” he told Fox News. “I would accept the pardon because I am 100 percent not guilty.”

The former sheriff said he will continue to be a strong supporter of the president regardless of whether he receives a pardon. But he also voiced concern that a pardon might cause problems for Trump, saying, “I would never ask him for a pardon, especially if it causes heat. I don’t want to do anything that would hurt the president.” 
nobody tell Gerald Ford :dead

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8207 on: August 14, 2017, 02:25:41 PM »
He was involved with EC, and had visited it multiple times in the lead up to OKC
??? Since when? He called people there, once. And once got a speeding ticket within twenty miles of the place.

The FBI has never linked him to anyone but Terry Nichols.

Might as well link him to al Qaeda through Nichols and John Doe #2. And then Saddam Hussein through Bojinka.

In any case, Trump should consider a pardon of McVeigh.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 02:29:57 PM by benjipwns »

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8208 on: August 14, 2017, 02:49:37 PM »
No, no, read this for the TRUTH:


spoiler (click to show/hide)
:doge
[close]

Boredfrom

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8209 on: August 14, 2017, 03:38:27 PM »
btw, Arapio wasn't even likely to go to jail and was convicted of contempt of court:
Quote
Arpaio, 85, was convicted by U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton of misdemeanor contempt of court for willfully disregarding an Arizona judge’s order in 2011 to stop the anti-immigrant traffic patrols. Arpaio had maintained the law enforcement patrols for 17 months thereafter.

The man who built a controversial national reputation as “America’s toughest sheriff” admitted he prolonged his patrols, but insisted he did not intend to break the law because one of his former attorneys did not explain to him the full measure of restrictions contained in the court order.

He is expected to be sentenced on Oct. 5 and could face up to six months in jail. However, since he is 85 years old and has no prior convictions, some attorneys doubt he will receive any jail time.

Trump is so bizarre. Why even attempt this is he is going to get six months at worst?

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8210 on: August 14, 2017, 05:12:51 PM »
Arpaio may be the lone person more popular with a certain segment of the Trump base than Trump himself. His legal defense fund and other anti-immigrant groups have been raising millions of dollars off his court case. Even though he's never been facing legitimate criminal charges. Even the Obama Administration "persecution" was about making him adhere to the law, they were hoping for a settlement, not an actual court fight or serious conviction.

This would be Trump's first pardon to date if he did it. (Though to be fair, both Obama and W. hadn't issued any pardons to this point either.)

I'm assuming it's about putting some easy points on the board for that base after his own immigration nonsense keeps falling into its own hole of incompetence.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8211 on: August 14, 2017, 05:39:46 PM »
https://www.popehat.com/2017/08/14/department-of-justice-uses-search-warrant-to-get-data-on-visitors-to-anti-trump-site/
Quote
The Department of Justice isn't just seeking communications by the defendants in its case. It's seeking the records of every single contact with the site — the IP address and other details of every American opposed enough to Trump to visit the site and explore political activism. It seeks the communications with and through the site of everyone who visited and commented, whether or not that communication is part of a crime or just political expression about the President of the United States. The government has made no effort whatsoever to limit the warrant to actual evidence of any particular crime. If you visited the site, if you left a message, they want to know who and where you are — whether or not you did anything but watch TV on inauguration day.
that 50 year old dude who didn't know Senators came from every state on GAF probably wishes he went through with his protest to not watch the inauguration now

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8212 on: August 14, 2017, 05:43:29 PM »
Quote
A white nationalist who participated in the torch-lit march through the University of Virginia’s campus this weekend has lost his job at a Berkeley, Calif., hot dog restaurant after Twitter users posted his photo and place of employment. The employee, Cole White, was identified online after he was photographed among a shouting and torch-wielding mob during the march Friday night in Charlottesville.

After being “inundated with inquiries,” his former employer, Top Dog, in downtown Berkeley, posted a sign on its door that reads: “Effective Saturday 12th August, Cole White no longer works at Top Dog. The actions of those in Charlottesville are not supported by Top Dog. We believe in individual freedom and voluntary association for everyone,” multiple news outlets reported. The shop has a political bent of its own, as it’s well-known in Berkeley for the libertarian stickers and articles posted on its walls, and website.


Quote
Top Dog, a Berkeley campus fixture, isn’t shy about its libertarian values. “The walls … are covered with libertarian bumper stickers, yellowed newspaper articles urging the privatization of the postal service, and hand-lettered signs with statements like, ‘Beware the leader’ and ‘There’s no government like no government,'” wrote SF Weekly in 1996.
:paul

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8213 on: August 14, 2017, 06:51:26 PM »
I'm surprised etoilet hasn't been in here yet to talk about how the real crime is all of these nazis being doxxed and then fired from their jobs.
yar

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8214 on: August 14, 2017, 07:11:11 PM »
Get fired from your job at a hot dog restaurant because you forgot to wear your hood, brehs.  :lucas
©@©™


TakingBackSunday

  • Banana Grabber
  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8216 on: August 14, 2017, 08:08:38 PM »
the people coming up to kick it  :lol

dummies.  but still, thats fucking awesome.  tear all that shit down.
püp

Boredfrom

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8217 on: August 14, 2017, 08:44:33 PM »
I'm usually all for keeping public monuments (unless voted out) but...

Fuck all that Confederate stuff, smash it all, Trump is a big piece of shit

seagrams hotsauce

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8218 on: August 14, 2017, 08:46:19 PM »
Lol that thing folded like a cheap suit. Good on the college kids of Durham for sparing the city from the labor and security costs of the inevitable teardowns of these dumbass things

Tasty

  • Senior Member
Re: U.S. Politics Discussion Thread |OT| New WH Comm Director: Frank Lee Power
« Reply #8219 on: August 14, 2017, 10:23:21 PM »
On the flipside:

Boston’s Holocaust Memorial damaged for second time this summer

:-\

Quote
For the second time this summer, the New England Holocaust Memorial in Boston was vandalized, when a 17-year-old allegedly threw a rock on Monday through one of the glass panels, shattering it.

The male teenager, who is from Malden, was quickly tackled by two bystanders and held until police arrived, police said. He is charged with willful destruction of property. Police are investigating whether the incident was a hate crime, according to a law enforcement official briefed on the case.

:obama

Probably a 4chan shithead.