FFXIV

[Bebpo]

Looking forward to playing stormblood with the rest of you on release.  Gonna be a totally different experience I think being caught up the latest stuff as it happens.

[Positive Touch]

playing the dungeons when they're new is fun although you will always end up with someone who's somehow played it like 50 times already. going around the map is kind of annoying tho because there's a ton of people standing around the quest givers

[Bebpo]

Is it normal that after a major new patch like 3.5 they keep having maintenance and minor patch fixes?  Kinda annoying.

playing the dungeons when they're new is fun although you will always end up with someone who's somehow played it like 50 times already. going around the map is kind of annoying tho because there's a ton of people standing around the quest givers

That sounds fun to me!

I was talking with someone in our FC and he was telling me that by going to the sightseeing log spots and seeing a group of people, he'd often meet strangers and make friends.  I can just imagine as a fisher going to fishing spots and have a handful of other fishers there fishing with you...instead of fishing alone like I always do ;_;

Or going somewhere and seeing a dozen miners in one spot.  I've never seen more than 1 miner/botanist anywhere.

And being part of the crafting/gathering/raiding market where if you catch some high end fish that can be desynthed into some part that some crafter can turn into some high end raiding gear suddenly you sell it for millions and are rolling in money.  Everything I get, even at lvl.50 is all old news and the only people who care are new players.  I want to be a part of this endgame economy!

I still think it might be kinda close catching up by Stormblood, just because I'm doing way too much stuff so my progression is slow lol 
Btw, I like how Maelstrom's 'Till the Sea Swallows & Sagathians or whatever they're called is this totally Cthulhu-based religion.  Chuthulhu in my FF is a good thing!

[Bebpo]

So server went up an hour early and I went on a bit before sleep.  It's crazy, when the server is empty the game runs SO GOOD.  Like 120fps smooth gorgeous.  Not sure if it's lag or graphically rendering players that causes the game to feel a lot less smooth.  I mean even in areas with no PCs like in forests it's feeling totally smooth here and it never feels that way.  I think it's gotta be a lag thing to a degree.  So nice, wish it could be like this all the time.

Anyhow, my Marlin sold!  200k omggg.  Now I have 350k gil and I'm RICH fuck yeah.  PT I mailed you a Marlin, but don't sell it cause I ain't sending you another   I put my third one on the market for 200k.  If that sells...I may spend my queue time fishing for Marlins and selling them for 200k.  Sure beats the 30k profit I'm getting on Iron Ingots x 99 once or twice a day.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Is it normal that after a major new patch like 3.5 they keep having maintenance and minor patch fixes?  Kinda annoying.

Yup. Gotta fix all the things they didn't catch in private testing + any new issues that inevitably crop up when you allow new players to try the shiny new thing. There was a bug that made people who mooched a certain HQ fish in a certain fishing pool crash the whole server. 

Anyhow, my Marlin sold!  200k omggg.  Now I have 350k gil and I'm RICH fuck yeah.  PT I mailed you a Marlin, but don't sell it cause I ain't sending you another   I put my third one on the market for 200k.  If that sells...I may spend my queue time fishing for Marlins and selling them for 200k.  Sure beats the 30k profit I'm getting on Iron Ingots x 99 once or twice a day.

Welcome to the crafting gil frenzy, where you sell your first big ticket item. Once you start going from triple digitis, to four, to five, to six, you start wondering how you lived without having so much money on you before and start seeking out your next big sale...

[Lucretius]

I start getting nervous on the rare occasion I see my Gil dip below a million.

[Positive Touch]

after I hit 1 mil i refuse to let it go under. i want a house but I'm gonna have to save up a few mil on top of the 1 i already have because fuck being a broke homeowner. 

[Bebpo]

I thought the problem with houses are they aren't available because they sell out right away and then nobody sells theirs?
Because yeah I'd totally want a house so I can have a garden.  My flower pots are ok but I want to garden in bulk ><  Although I did get 9 Krakka Roots from one side in my flower pot the other day

If we had enough people and there were houses available, we could totally have a Bore house.

[Positive Touch]

there are houses available all the time. just gotta keep an eye on the party finder and ask around.

[Bebpo]

What kind of prices are the typically going for?  10 million?

[Positive Touch]

i wanna say small homes are 3-5, aaaaand medium are like 12, with mansions costing a hell of a lot more. been a long time since I checked so those could be way off. also depends on who's selling and the property location, ofc.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

SpeedStats and I are saving money to get a personal house in the new Stormblood housing area, hopefully a medium. I'm making it a mission to rush through the MSQ just to gain access to the housing area and buy it. 

Both of us wanted a house in Ishgard, but since they nyxed the plans for that we'll make due

[Positive Touch]

yeah I'm not even gonna try for that. I'm sure scalpers will own everything within two hours of release. I'm aiming to get a small beachfront house. don't care if it's in a subdivision bc no one but me will ever go there. 

[Bebpo]

Hopped on and tried treasure hunt with the two maps I had in my inventory.  Boy, that was boring.  Figuring out the spot was ok but then fighting easy enemies and getting meh loot /shrug 
Probably won't do this anymore.

[Positive Touch]

only the two or three lowest tiers aren't worth it. everything else gets you some great stuff, and you can even go to a secret dungeon. just make sure you have team with you if you're gonna open a dragon skin map.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

I think Bebpo had the level 50 maps, which dont have the Aquapolis as part of it. 

[Bebpo]

only the two or three lowest tiers aren't worth it. everything else gets you some great stuff, and you can even go to a secret dungeon. just make sure you have team with you if you're gonna open a dragon skin map.

Ok, this must have been it.  I had a Boar/Peiteskin and they were easy/boring.

[Positive Touch]

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2017/01/final-fantasy-xiv-getting-live-action-series-based-true-story/

wat

(i will watch this if fans translate it)

[Bebpo]

PT, Sunblade, you guys want to do any fights/dungeons tonight?  I've got Ifrit extreme & coil part #1 to do at some point.  No rush though, if you're not playing tonight.  Can work on my other quests like MSQ.

[Positive Touch]

my brother in law is over rn, one he takes off I'll log in.

[Bebpo]

Ok, maybe in an hour?  8pm PST/11pm EST?  I haven't had dinner so I'll eat something in the meantime. 

[Positive Touch]

sorry that took longer than I thought. on now.

[Bebpo]

Made a party finder for Turn 1 of Coil synced and got a party!  We did it and it was actually really easy because they've nerfed it/buffed the players so even synced we just blew through it easier than most lvl.50 dungeons.  The healers had to leave afterwards though so the party disbanded but I have hope now that I can find parties for the rest of it if I make party finder groups.

[Bebpo]

One thing I don't get.  The game has a "Raid Finder" thing separate from Duty Finder.  I was kinda hoping it'd be like a daily roulette for raids to help get players together for raiding, but it's still faded out and unselectable for me at this point.  What does the raid finder actually do?

[Bebpo]

Ok, so I'm reading a guide for Coil Turn 1 when it first came out and it sounds way more strategic and interesting.

At what point do I get to join the party of players who take on super strategic and difficult challenges and use voice chat and stuff to work together to beat it wipe after wipe?  So far when we did Thornmarch it was like that, and Garuda Ex sorta, WoD a bit.  But if I keep playing, when I get to lvl.60 and have beaten HW and MSQ through 3.5, then will I finally be able to be part of this exciting wiping and winning boss battles?  Because that stuff is so exciting and fun and I want to be joining in on that.

Also I'm assuming at that point I need to try to find a "static raid group" to find others to play that kind of stuff.  Is it hard finding a group as a DPS because everyone is a DPS?

[Bebpo]

So I learned about WT tonight.  And how Weekly Trails give reasons for players to go back and do old content, like even Coil or Ex Primals.  But everyone just runs them EX, no challenge, win in 10 seconds, get their stamp and be done.

It seems to me like the WT would be a lot of useful if the requirement for the WT was to run these things synced.  Not only would this mean actually having to earn stuff instead of no challenge freebie, but it would also populate the Ex trials & Coils with tons of players doing them so people could find duty finder groups.  Win-win, right?

I feel like the developers underestimate the ability for random groups of players to work as a team.  Like it's really not that bad most of the time from my experiences I'm getting.  Text chat works great and if one or two people explain what needs to be done, or if the party wipes and then someone explains what went wrong so it doesn't happen the next time, then it's been perfectly fine.  Even when I'm reading about stuff like Coil when it launched, these are all things that a party can explain and figure out with each other at the start of each mini-boss/boss fight.  Just seems like the MMO thing since forever has been this mindset that "random teams can't do hard stuff; you need dedicated parties for those" so they don't do anything to help group random players together for tough things.  A duty roulette/WT for Ex/Coil fights that has GREAT rewards would incentive a lot of players to join that stuff and would help newer players like myself. 

Oh well, at least party finder is cross-world now.

[Akala]

I have been playing off/on since 1.0 but very casually. Haven't played since 3.3 (end of HW) so have some catching up to do. Totally on board for STORMBLOOD.

Bebpo going balls deep for a first MMO, I have only done a few extreme primals and noped out of coil lol.

[Positive Touch]

if you want wipe and repeat battles then maybe a static raid is for you. don't know much about them and I'm not sure how many there'll be still once you get there but you can try. also most of the ex bosses in hs are still really really fucking hard. surviving is like memorizing the moves to a fucking ballet. it's hard.

[Lucretius]

I've done static team raid progression before. It's a lot of damn work. Like a second job. Not only do most serious statics expect you to raid at least three nights a week for three hours at a time, they also expect you to do all the daily/weekly stuff to gear up and gather/craft raid food and potions, which can take up more time than the actual raid progression itself. I have a lot of great memories and made some great friends. But I think my static raid team days are over for the foreseeable future. I'm still in a raiding free company and will sub in or do pickups with some super skilled players. They randomly invited me into a party the other night and taught me the most recent Extreme trial. I'd be never been in before but we killed Zurvan Ex in two pulls.  im going to try and find time to down the last two instances of the current savage raid before Bloodstorm comes out.

[Lucretius]

Oh I just finished my i270 Dragoon relic last night. Starting the final step to completing my i270 Dark Knight relic this weekend.

[Positive Touch]

you got any tips for farming sand? I'm so sick of this damn step

[Lucretius]

Are you familiar with the method for farming Crystal Sands via Levequests?

[The Legend of Sunblade]

So just to clear up a tiny misconception on Bebps' part...

The only two parts to actually get significant "nerfes" in any of the endgame raids are three of the fights in Second Coil and a few of the fights in Alexander. The rest is exactly as it was when it first came out, barring the additional echo buff to help new players clear it and some tweaks here and there. Turn 1, 2 and 4 were always kinda dull, it doesn't really kick in until Turn 5. It's just naturally easier because Turn 1-5 came out when the item level average was i50-70, and now you were i130.

A "roulette" for raid content like coil is unlikely because these fights are hard when synced. They were the "bash your head against a wall and gear up just for a shot and beating this" content, after all. It's not that devs underestimate the players, its that in general, the average duty finder player is really really bad. Like, inability to follow basic orders bad. I tried to get my clears for second/final coil during 2.5, before the level 60 and item level increase, and it was a miserable experience of party after party getting stuck in the same basic things.

Raid Finder is a recent feature added for the latest EX Trials and Savage content, which lets you queue for what type of progression stage you're at and pairing up with people on the same stage (new, half progression, cleared, farm, etc).

[Bebpo]

So in other words the raid finder is a duty finder for raids and exactly what I want, but it's only for the lvl.60 content so I need to catch up


Took the day off, so gonna grab a pizza and see if I can get through 2.2->2.5 this weekend.  I'll deal with Coil turns on the side as I can find people, but if I get through 2.5 this weekend and Hildebrand through 2.5, then I'll finally be ready to start HW.

Though I kinda also want to play some more Gravity Rush 1, Undertale, RE7 VR and maybe start playing Yakuza 0 with the rest of you all, so may not get all that far in FFXIV.  But I'll try

[Bebpo]

On GAF, trying to get a group together to maybe do one night a weekend 1-2 hours, slowly go through coil (probably 1 turn per week for 12 weeks).  We may have 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 DPS so far.  I'm trying to see if like 5pm PST/8pm EST would work.  Any of you guys/gals and/or anyone you know be interested/willing to group up for this?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=229217568&postcount=8871

[Positive Touch]

lmao what really? that's kind of hilarious.

[Mupepe]

Ok I'm buying this now but do I get a realm reborn? Is that the full game or an expansion? Is steam the cheapest place?

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Ok I'm buying this now but do I get a realm reborn? Is that the full game or an expansion? Is steam the cheapest place?

A realm reborn is the full game, Heavensward is the expansion.

The best place to buy it on PC is the standalone/non-steam version because it and its expansions go on sale more often than the steam version (though they're both $20 right now, so that point is rather moot until the /next/ expansion). Perk to the steam version is that you can pay for your sub through steam wallet.

If you're gonna buy both ARR and HW at once, both the SE store and amazon have the bundle for both at $30.

[Mupepe]

Thanks! I'm excited! Woot! Is that square enix software still god awful like it was for XI?

[The Legend of Sunblade]

If you mean play online, even XI barely uses it now. XIV has zero traces of it, even during 1.0. 

[Mupepe]

If you mean play online, even XI barely uses it now. XIV has zero traces of it, even during 1.0. 

Oh thank god. That thing was a nightmare. Even more excited now! Has anyone tried playing with an Xbox controller? XI was doable but definitely not ideal. I'm interested in it for just regular grinding and being lazy on the couch

[The Legend of Sunblade]

If you mean play online, even XI barely uses it now. XIV has zero traces of it, even during 1.0. 

Oh thank god. That thing was a nightmare. Even more excited now! Has anyone tried playing with an Xbox controller? XI was doable but definitely not ideal. I'm interested in it for just regular grinding and being lazy on the couch

FFXIV is fully designed around controller use. Ive done every bit of the game with a pad and never felt like im not in control. 

[Bebpo]

Hmmm, so tonight finished 2.2 MSQ, finished all the rest of the lvl.50 hard mode & new dungeons, and finished the Gilgamesh Hildebrand questline.  Pleased to see the increase in budget already.  Lots of voiced cutscenes in 2.2 whereas 2.1 had zero I think.

Got my full 120 set today and my carbontwine, so I'll get my 130 weapon next time.  I'm like halfway through lvl.53, so I'm figuring I'll probably be at lvl.54 when I start HW and still working on my i130 full set cause buying like 8 more pieces of carbontwine @ 400 poetics each is gonna take a while since I don't have a lot of "first-time" poetic-giving stuff left at this point.

So now down to just 2.3/2.4/2.5 MSQ, the rest of the Hildebrand quests prior to HW 3.0, and Coil Turn 2-12 and then I'll feel like I did all the major ARR content and will be ready for HW.  At 220 hours now.  Figuring ~250 hours for general ARR completion before going into HW.

Things I'm not going to do before going into HW:
-All moogle carrier quests
-All beast tribe lines
-All "!" quests
-All job quests to 50

I'll keep doing those on the side as I do other stuff through 3.5, but that's the kind of stuff that after I get caught up if I want stuff to do I'll finish up then.  Although 2.0 Sightseeing log I'm never going to do.  Platforming is bullshit!  Not even fair.

I'm tempted, right before starting HW, to power through leveling a Lancer/Dragoon because apparently the job quest leads into it and for high level play I guess I gotta get Dragoon to 34 so I can put Blood 4 Blood on my Ninja since DPS checks are more and more frequent and that added 10% damage may become important in Alexander Savage and stuff.

PT, sorry I missed you tonight.  I was falling asleep from MSQ fetch quests and logging out right when you logged in.  The 2.2 MSQ is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz helping the Doma people move.  The MSQ quests really burn me out if I try to do a bunch at a time.  Everything else dungeons/trials/crafting/sidequests is great, MSQ really is the only thing that drags because it's so spread out over a ton of useless quests often.

[Mupepe]

If you mean play online, even XI barely uses it now. XIV has zero traces of it, even during 1.0. 

Oh thank god. That thing was a nightmare. Even more excited now! Has anyone tried playing with an Xbox controller? XI was doable but definitely not ideal. I'm interested in it for just regular grinding and being lazy on the couch

FFXIV is fully designed around controller use. Ive done every bit of the game with a pad and never felt like im not in control. 

Awesome!

[Positive Touch]

it's no problem bebs; i settled through a single dungeon bc is falling asleep too. soon as I finished I put the controller down and went to bed.

[Bebpo]

If you mean play online, even XI barely uses it now. XIV has zero traces of it, even during 1.0. 

Oh thank god. That thing was a nightmare. Even more excited now! Has anyone tried playing with an Xbox controller? XI was doable but definitely not ideal. I'm interested in it for just regular grinding and being lazy on the couch

FFXIV is fully designed around controller use. Ive done every bit of the game with a pad and never felt like im not in control. 

Awesome!

Yeah I use a controller and KB to type.  The only thing I grab my mouse for is inventory selling and the map because it's quicker.

A controller can give you like 24 icons on screen at any time with instant access.  Through lvl.50 that's just enough for a Ninja job.  Not sure what I'm gonna do post 50 though... you can fiip between 8 hotbars of 16 icons, but for me I want to visually see all the stuff I use at one time that are on cooldown so I can hit use the second they come back up.  I know there are solutions to this, but pretty soon I'll need to look into it more.

Like this is my active lvl.50 ninja hotbar:



Though the upper right, left potion slot I switch around, sometimes for a throwing daggers distance attack, sometimes potions if I need them for a situation.  On my second bar non-visible bar I have stuff like food and permanent stances and chocobos and running that I don't need to see on cooldown while in a fight.

[Mupepe]

Good to hear! I plan on playing off my Surface so I can just pack up my Xbox controller and the surface and play on trips and whatnot.

I'm beating xv tonight before I start xiv but I'm installed and ready to go!

So in XI I was a red mage when I started out for the versatility at lower levels. Any reason I wouldn't want to do the same for this?

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Partially cause you there's no red mage in this game (yet). 

XIV revolves more around the usual MMO trinity than XI did, it being Tank, DPS and Healer. DPS tend to be more solo-friendly for when you're just mucking around the world due to being able to kill things before they kill you. Once you reach 30 on a class (and 15 on a subclass), you can "upgrade" to the class' upgrade that limits the amount of cross-class abilities you can use, but gives you their specialized actions in return.

The starting classes and their weapons are:

Tanks:
Gladiator (Sword and Shield), changes to Paladin
Marauder (Axe), changes to Warrior

DPS:
Pugilist (Fist), changes to Monk
Lancer (Spear), changes to Dragoon
Rogue (Daggers), changes to Ninja, requires level 10 in any other class first
Archer (Bow), changes to Bard
Thaumaturge (Offensive magic nukes), changes to Black Mage
*Arcanist (Damage over Time magic, Pets), changes to Summoner and Scholar (Healer)

Healers:
Conjurer, changes to White Mage
*Scholar, once you get to level 30 arcanist.

*Because they both share the same class, leveling either Summoner or Arcanist levels the other job at the same time.

All in all, arguably the most "versatile" at low levels would be arcanist since they can do more or less bits of all three roles at the start. But really, it doesn't matter because you're gonna wanna focus on what the Job is good at anyway.

[Mupepe]

Well shit. The end goal works out though since I was a summoner in XI so I'll go with anarchist. Thanks!

[Bebpo]

Do Summoners ever get to summon like cool monsters?  Or do you think that may be added at some point?  Because when I think of Summoner in FF I think of a job that summons Ifrit/Ramuh/FFXII summons, etc... not like these little floating fire monsters or carbunkle.  I'd totally play a cool giant monster summoner class, but not really interested in playing a pokemon pet class.

That being said, I think for a healing class I'm probably gonna go with the HW one just because it starts at 30 and that is very appealing rather than getting my WM from 15->30.  Especially since SB doesn't look like it'll have a healing class, so if I want one healing job, one tank, and one DPS I'll go with the HW healer.  Hopefully SB has Samurai tank and I'll ditch my lvl.38 Paladin that I really don't feel like ever using again at this point, and start over at a lvl.50 Samurai tank.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Summoner only has the three dopey looking Egis, yes. They floated ideas on making the primals summonable for a while, but nothing ever panned out because of the way the game uses Primals in the story only really allows for one of them to exist a time, so they'd be limited to shit like having /one/ player be able to have them around for a limited time. Lore-wise, Egis are summoning a fragment of a Primal's essence, which allows the Summoner (and all the other summoners) to be able to control it and have multiple ones around. Thankfully the egi glamours they just added will cover more of that and let you use whatever they add instead. 

What they did in HW is, rather than have you summon more types of Egis (which would be redundant cause they already cover melee, tank and ranged), they're having the summoner himself channel stuff that makes /the player/ stronger. Level 50-60 is all about learning how to channel the power of Bahamut, even letting you use Bahamut's signature skill from when you fight him in XIV.



Wouldn't be surprised if Stormblood follows the same trend and gives Summoner time magic shit like Alexander can do.

[Positive Touch]

I hope they redo the egi models for sb because those things look like shit

[Bebpo]

So I got a PF group unsync and we did Coil T1-T5.  Then got another group, including PT and we did T6-T8.  Had issues synching together on the T9 meteor drop part #2 and keeping the golems apart and kept wiping until people left.  Haven't watched any of the story stuff yet, been skipping cutscenes.  Might watch T2-T8 cutscenes, but kinda tempted to run a party finder just for T9 and try to beat it.  Any good suggestions for getting people on the same page for the meteor drops in T9?  We had markers but I felt like there was some miscommunication.

I mean the first phase seems easy without markers or anything.  Put the first meteor somewhere on the outside in a N/S/E/W position and then drop the 3 at a time green ones at the other 45 degree apart areas.  Then the golems spawn at least 45 degree apart, have a tank on each one keeping them put so they don't move and then for the 3rd have a few dps killing it QUICK before it gets near more than one meteor or another golem.

The above should be easy, no problem.

For the second meteor drop, THERE ARE A LOT OF METEORS BEING DROPPED.  The problem with the lack of coordination on this with a group is after a few have dropped and been placed, people start getting a meteor over their head and have no idea where the current meteors on the field are and are just scrambling hoping they don't run into one when another player that's doing the same ends up scrambling near them. 

The second golem part should be the same as part 1 if you survive the meteor fall.  Keep the golems apart, one tank each, 3rd one gets killed quick by DPS.

That's as far as we got because on part 2 one of the golems ate too many meteors and grew big and wiped the party.  From what I understand there's still like 2 more phases of dragon divebombs and stuff too after that. 


I think my goal for this weekend is going to be to finish Coil.  After that's done, the rest of ARR left will be short, easy and smooth sailing that I can casually go through before starting HW.

[Positive Touch]

i swear those damn green meteors were supposed to go in the middle circles

[The Legend of Sunblade]

See the green circles? drop the golem comets there. Every other comet goes around the arena, distant enough to not trigger getting blown up.

The spires surrounding the arena actually serve as a visual market for that. If you put a meteor in between them, then one right next to them, that's the distance you need to put between them.

[Bebpo]

Yeah, but how do you get a group together that knows this :/
I feel like you need everyone on board or you're screwed.  It doesn't seem that hard to me but we were struggling as a group for sure.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Welcome to 2.X endgame hardcore raiding, why I couldn't beat the fight at level 50 and why statics are a thing. Enjoy your stay. 

T9 is the one fight in Second Coil that was not defanged in any way.  It's just as hard as it was back then, only the parts that don't kill you instantly are easier to go through. Mechanically, its still one of the hardest fights in the game, though Alexander fights are /technically/ harder in raw numbers.

[Bebpo]

Hehehe, yeah it's fun. I had a great time and even T5 still had fun parts.  I've got no problem trying over and over for an hour slowly getting further until hopefully clear.  But I've noticed with hard fights at least one person leaves after 3-4 deaths and then everyone bails with 45 mins still left.

Gonna ask my FC later on tonight if anyone can help on T9.
If not gonna make a Turn 9 learning/clearing party pf and see if people join

If I can get T9 clear, is unsycned final gonna go ok or is there more stuff like T9?

And looking at unsync vids it has been defanged slightly.  In the second half you can kill the boss so fast you only have to deal with one set of fire/ice wipe shots at the end.

[Positive Touch]

the way to win is to try again and again and again and again

and someday you will win

this is why the super fights are so super hard. although tbh i didn't think the Alex fights were all that hard. you talking about the Savage ones? i remember beating the final set of levels like two weeks after they came out and only wiping a couple times. was disappointing. the 3.x ex fights on the other hand...  :/

[Positive Touch]

final set is harder. t10 i think? sucks ass. the one where you're chasing eggs and blocks or whatever. the final fight is complex but t9 is a lot more demanding.