Author Topic: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ] jordan peterson Jordan Peterson JORDAN PETERSON  (Read 207619 times)

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HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #1380 on: May 19, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »
Professor Peterson offers you three pokeballs. Which one do you pick?

The woman with a bit of grass on the field, the wet one or the hot one?

Assimilate

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« Reply #1381 on: May 19, 2018, 11:55:04 AM »
I wonder how white knighting works out for some of you.  :jawalrus


Pictures of dragons aren’t data.


 :pimp

Coitus

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« Reply #1382 on: May 19, 2018, 12:34:39 PM »
Who gets more pussy, white knights or angry sad sacks with a surrogate YouTube father?

agrajag

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« Reply #1383 on: May 19, 2018, 01:04:28 PM »
You guys took a major downgrade when you swapped etoilet for assface. At least he isn't posting pictures of children in prison camps yet.

D3RANG3D

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« Reply #1384 on: May 19, 2018, 01:06:27 PM »
When does the purveyor of L's get to come back?

agrajag

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« Reply #1385 on: May 19, 2018, 01:12:43 PM »
When does the purveyor of L's get to come back?

He's back spewing verbal diarrhea in the politics thread

Nintex

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« Reply #1386 on: May 19, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
FIRST YOU GET DA MONEY
THEN YOU GET THE POWAH
WHEN YOU GET DA POWAH AND THE MONEY
YO GET THE WOMEN

The deranged theories of these nutcases still come down to Scarface quotes.  :doge

🤴

etiolate

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« Reply #1387 on: May 19, 2018, 01:25:00 PM »

Despite what you might have read in Teen Vogue, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. And Marxism-Leninism was basically Lenin and Trotsky going "this won't work! here's what will!"

And then Stalin went "anyway, fuck those guys, time to settle my long term inferiority complex growing up in the Russian caste system by taking it out on the world at large!"

Most importantly, Marx was absolutely obsessed with historical determinism to a level that he didn't bother elaborating on how his ultimate states come about because it considered it scientifically proven to happen because he said so. And often would attack his followers who tried to explain it, especially the transition period to communism, for undermining the science. One result of this, and what Lenin and Stalin both had to grapple with is that Marx's very specific stages didn't apply to Russia, like, at all, they were written for the UK and a prospective unified and industrial German state that didn't even come to exist until a few years before Marx died and years after he wrote the Manifesto. (His opinion on France was all over the place, like everyone else's opinions on France always.)

Marx wrote Communist Manifesto. Marx wrote about communism. He wrote it was coming and there'd be revolutionary violence.

I pointed out every part of the Manifesto that lead to the death of millions. The ideas therein were carried out and were deadly. They then were repeated in China and Zimbabwe.

You should have been honest and stated exactly what you were doing: That's not real socialism!

But you tried to weasel around the awful thing that you, culry and Mandark were doing. Nah. Fuck you. Enjoy your Holodomor images. I don't know why anyone thought the images would stop by banning me a couple of days. I said they would happen until an apology was made. I don't see an apology. I just see more terrible behavior.

As for the images, they do several things: Apply a serious topic at a visceral level for a community of people who can't handle serious topics. They then repeat over and over, making it feel cheap because that's what happens to serious topics in the hands of jackasses., they get cheapened. They also hold the forum up, hostage-like, in  way that represents Soviet interrogations. Let's call it the gun pointed at you on the table.

No interest in discussing Peterson or anything with this forum. Complete waste of time. I would like to say that you can google "enforced monogamy" and find the research papers and literature on it. It's a social sciences and biology term. It basically means socially preferenced and standardized monogamy.

I'm more interested in pointing out the behavior here of people towards incels. Incels are downtrodden people. Not every one is a madman. Most are just socially awkward and starving for confidence. Many just may not be good looking. These are people who likely got bullied a lot and this forum sees them as their own bullying target. It takes a real piece of shit to want to hate on the already beat down. But that's what this place is about. A bunch of meek people looking for anything or anyone they can be above so they can step all over them.

For some reason, you thought you could be that way with me, but I don't fuck around. You can see people that showed up in this thread once I was gone. You're scared of me, as well you should be. I'm not meek and I actually point out what you are.

For the few that aren't like that and for the many who are, I'm just going to sum it up with this video. Don't cast your pearls before swine.



Now I'll soon be banned so this is getting locked.

Great Rumbler

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1388 on: May 19, 2018, 01:50:20 PM »
*wet fart sound*
dog

Mandark

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« Reply #1389 on: May 19, 2018, 01:52:13 PM »

Despite what you might have read in Teen Vogue, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. And Marxism-Leninism was basically Lenin and Trotsky going "this won't work! here's what will!"

And then Stalin went "anyway, fuck those guys, time to settle my long term inferiority complex growing up in the Russian caste system by taking it out on the world at large!"

Most importantly, Marx was absolutely obsessed with historical determinism to a level that he didn't bother elaborating on how his ultimate states come about because it considered it scientifically proven to happen because he said so. And often would attack his followers who tried to explain it, especially the transition period to communism, for undermining the science. One result of this, and what Lenin and Stalin both had to grapple with is that Marx's very specific stages didn't apply to Russia, like, at all, they were written for the UK and a prospective unified and industrial German state that didn't even come to exist until a few years before Marx died and years after he wrote the Manifesto. (His opinion on France was all over the place, like everyone else's opinions on France always.)

Marx wrote Communist Manifesto. Marx wrote about communism. He wrote it was coming and there'd be revolutionary violence.

I pointed out every part of the Manifesto that lead to the death of millions. The ideas therein were carried out and were deadly. They then were repeated in China and Zimbabwe.

You should have been honest and stated exactly what you were doing: That's not real socialism!

But you tried to weasel around the awful thing that you, culry and Mandark were doing.


benjipwns...................................... welcome to the #Resistance

team filler

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1390 on: May 19, 2018, 02:00:10 PM »
 :(
*****

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1391 on: May 19, 2018, 02:00:31 PM »
The mods are out to get me. They're tyrants trying to stifle my free speech. I'm simply too real for them.

*posts pages of NSFW images of dying starving children and verbal diarrhea across multiple threads, gets banned*

See? I told you. Tyrants! Despots!

Assimilate

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« Reply #1392 on: May 19, 2018, 02:14:08 PM »
Who gets more pussy, white knights or angry sad sacks with a surrogate YouTube father?
I'd say it's a push.

But i can at least feel a bit of sympathy for the 'sad sacks' because they aren't being little fucking pussies trying to white knight their way into some girls pants and still failing miserably when the brash guy at the party gets her anyways.  :doge

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1393 on: May 19, 2018, 02:29:36 PM »


This debate seems a bit weird to me. I feel as if Peterson isn't actually addressing the actual subject of the debate. It seems like the argument he is making is a different debate. Political correctness in some general sense is the idea that certain points of view and ideas shouldn't be expressed. Peterson seems to have made it about his general gripes with Left wing politics.

Although they are related, he isn't explicitly saying why 'political correctness' is a bad thing or counter-productive. He is arguing why identity politics is a bad thing.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 02:39:48 PM by Leadbelly »

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1394 on: May 19, 2018, 02:32:38 PM »




Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1395 on: May 19, 2018, 02:35:02 PM »


This debate seems a bit weird to me. I feel as if Peterson isn't actually addressing the actual subject of the debate. It seems like the argument he is making is a different debate. Political correctness in some general sense is the idea that certain points of view and ideas shouldn't be expressed. Peterson seems to have made about his general gripes with Left wing politics.

Although they are related, he isn't explicitly saying why 'political correctness' is a bad thing or counter-productive. He is arguing why identity politics is a bad thing.

Stephen Fry makes a joke at 1:25 ish when the moderator asks him what people will see when they look back at this debate - 'Well they will wonder why political correctness isnt being discussed'  :ohyeah




Leadbelly

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1396 on: May 19, 2018, 02:37:37 PM »


This debate seems a bit weird to me. I feel as if Peterson isn't actually addressing the actual subject of the debate. It seems like the argument he is making is a different debate. Political correctness in some general sense is the idea that certain points of view and ideas shouldn't be expressed. Peterson seems to have made about his general gripes with Left wing politics.

Although they are related, he isn't explicitly saying why 'political correctness' is a bad thing or counter-productive. He is arguing why identity politics is a bad thing.

Stephen Fry makes a joke at 1:25 ish when the moderator asks him what people will see when they look back at this debate - 'Well they will wonder why political correctness isnt being discussed'  :ohyeah

lol :D

shosta

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« Reply #1397 on: May 19, 2018, 02:39:02 PM »
I feel as if Peterson isn't actually addressing the actual subject of the debate. It seems like the argument he is making is a different debate.
That's what you do when you only know how to talk about one thing.
每天生气

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1398 on: May 19, 2018, 02:42:53 PM »
I think I missed making this point, but I don't think someone can honestly say "political correctness" (ie having speech informally restricted by the threat of social sanctions if you use speech against certain groups) is a malign force while also arguing that women's speech would be improved if they had to limit what they said by an implicit threat of violence.

Not that Peterson's ever actually coherent, but y'know.

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1399 on: May 19, 2018, 02:43:26 PM »
like for real tho, if etiolate isnt here anymore, no need to obsess over JP, no one else cares, there's 3 other people on the panel.

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1400 on: May 19, 2018, 02:44:13 PM »
like for real tho, if etiolate isnt here anymore, no need to obsess over JP, no one else cares, there's 3 other people on the panel.

half your posts are complaining about what other people are talking about, like you paid for a subscription to this site

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1401 on: May 19, 2018, 02:46:50 PM »
like for real tho, if etiolate isnt here anymore, no need to obsess over JP, no one else cares, there's 3 other people on the panel.

half your posts are complaining about what other people are talking about, like you paid for a subscription to this site
it wouldn't be if this wasn't a 31 page thread talking almost exclusively about JP, someone we all seem to agree isnt specifically interesting, yet discuss every day.

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1402 on: May 19, 2018, 02:50:19 PM »
Regardless of how much Etiolate might have protested at this notion, he created this thread to be about his love towards JP, this is the de facto JP thread.

shosta

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1403 on: May 19, 2018, 02:50:22 PM »
be the change you want to see momo, I believe in you. If you post something about someone else I'll check it out. As long as it's not dingleberry Sam Harris.
每天生气

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1404 on: May 19, 2018, 02:51:21 PM »
I don't think Peterson's uninteresting, just wildly wrong. But he's at least idiosyncratic and provides a lot of entertaining material.

Compare that to Dave Rubin, who's basically Glenn Reynolds 2.0. Talking about him would be boring as shit.

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1405 on: May 19, 2018, 02:52:50 PM »
alright sure, fine. week long orgy and stuff, i'll leave it, but hopefully after we can talk about Stephen Fry and others  :shaqc

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1406 on: May 19, 2018, 02:55:37 PM »
I don't think Peterson's uninteresting, just wildly wrong. But he's at least idiosyncratic and provides a lot of entertaining material.

Compare that to Dave Rubin, who's basically Glenn Reynolds 2.0. Talking about him would be boring as shit.
I mean Carl of Akkad is interesting in that 'entertainment' regard also but I doubt anyone here wants to talk about his ass. Anyway i'll post some stuff after you guys are done grave stomping.

Leadbelly

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1407 on: May 19, 2018, 03:12:58 PM »
I've always found Stephen Fry to be boring so probably not.

I actually think he is quite amusing in this debate.

Kara

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« Reply #1408 on: May 19, 2018, 03:50:22 PM »
Good podcast. Living in a country where racelessnes is so core to the whole idea (with some obvious practical problems), it's always interesting to contrast with the situation in the Americas.

They don't release often (it's tied to their magazine iirc), but I recommend them for anyone who doesn't mind Latin American analysis from a somewhat left anglophone academic perspective.

Oblivion

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1409 on: May 19, 2018, 04:22:04 PM »
Momo-kun, I like ya, but YOU'RE the one who posted that PC debate with Peterson!  :doge

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1410 on: May 19, 2018, 04:27:35 PM »
Momo-kun, I like ya, but YOU'RE the one who posted that PC debate with Peterson!  :doge
once again there are like 3 other panelists, I'm not going ignore interesting content because I cant trust people to behave (imo of course).

Oblivion

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1411 on: May 19, 2018, 04:39:16 PM »
Those three are fairly well known (at least in political circles) but JP is the - as the great David Brooks proclaimed - "the most important intellectual in the western hemisphere". He's the one that's in the news all the time, so he's the one who most people are going to focus on (whether that be his fans or enemies). I don't see what's wrong with that.

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1412 on: May 19, 2018, 04:46:39 PM »
I'm not going ignore interesting content because I cant trust people to behave (imo of course).

That sounds like something Etiolate would say

 :whoo

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1413 on: May 19, 2018, 04:52:50 PM »
Someone has to take the filler likes  :success

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1414 on: May 19, 2018, 05:50:29 PM »
Dear lord, I just skimmed through some of the video Momo posted... all of Etoilet's ramblings about communist atrocities is parroting Peterson almost verbatim. Gotta get a mind of your own, sunshine!

 :dead

Assimilate

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1415 on: May 19, 2018, 06:17:08 PM »
Dear lord, I just skimmed through some of the video Momo posted... all of Etoilet's ramblings about communist atrocities is parroting Peterson almost verbatim. Gotta get a mind of your own, sunshine!

 :dead
And you go by what? bullshit you see on CNN? or maybe some poorly googled articles you picked up on your way to enlightenment?


agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1416 on: May 19, 2018, 06:26:03 PM »
 :lol

Oblivion

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1417 on: May 19, 2018, 06:32:55 PM »
Not to belabor the point, Assimilate, but your comments on Venezuela, CNN, and now Jordan Peterson seem to paint a particular impression regarding your political beliefs...

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1418 on: May 19, 2018, 07:31:41 PM »
I appreciate Assimilate trying to step in to fill the void, but it's not the same.

et really thought Peterson had revealed some dark, forbidden knowledge. You get the sense Assimilate's just trying to get an argument going while he waits for the laundry to finish.

shosta

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1419 on: May 19, 2018, 07:52:04 PM »
You get the sense Assimilate's just trying to get an argument going while he waits for the laundry to finish.
i'm usually busy and the times i have to let loose some rage and anger i'll come here to do so.

I thought that's what this place was for?

 :fbm
每天生气

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1420 on: May 19, 2018, 07:55:59 PM »
"You cucks are awfully dismissive of a guy with actual credentials and research on the topic of..."

*googles Jordan Peterson for the first time ever*

"chaos dragons?"

Assimilate

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1421 on: May 19, 2018, 11:08:45 PM »
Yeah, that he's fucking dumb.

For a second there i was respecting our exchanges... now you've insulted me, sir.

Not to belabor the point, Assimilate, but your comments on Venezuela, CNN, and now Jordan Peterson seem to paint a particular impression regarding your political beliefs...
I don't have political beliefs. I don't like politics. I go with what makes sense to me, what seems backed by evidence and what i have experienced in life. Like i said before and was mocked profusely... I voted Obama twice. If i were black i know i know i'd still be an 'uncle tom'

But real quick... what about Venezuela? I've been to Venezuela recently (right before the starvation crisis) for work. Do tell me what your thoughts on that situation are and how i'm wrong, or how you think my views are wrong on that.

I appreciate Assimilate trying to step in to fill the void, but it's not the same.

et really thought Peterson had revealed some dark, forbidden knowledge. You get the sense Assimilate's just trying to get an argument going while he waits for the laundry to finish.
Laundry? Motherfucker that's what a girlfriend is for  :gurl

jakefromstatefarm

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« Reply #1422 on: May 19, 2018, 11:24:57 PM »
Actual reactionaries, especially the meaner ones, think Peterson is a fairly boring pro-liberalism conservative (ie right-center/center-right) and they would be mostly correct on that. The idea that because he doesn't like modern feminism or pronouns that begin with xyz, he's actually aligned with people who want to overturn democracy or global capitalism is silly. When he isn't the middle of lecturing on his Jungian/Darwinian/Gnostic blend (he's a little less Christian than I originally thought, but in a way that makes him even less of a reactionary), he's a fairly standard knee-jerking Canadian conservative boomer, right down to failing to properly label what he's arguing against ("post-modern marxism", which is a misnomer for the typical "PC Culture" academia or maybe even Harold Bloom's School of Resentment).
sure, but this particular misnomer he’s committed to and the narrative (read: top-down conspiracy) that goes along with it was invented/propagated by actual reactionaries. Surely that’s at least a little relevant.

Quote
The fact the charts are already going up is a bit of a rhetorical obstacle for anyone who thinks there is a huge economical/political problem with society, left or right.
the main objection raised towards pinkers work for 15 years now has been that he manipulates the charts to point up, or otherwise handwaves them away when they don’t.

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1423 on: May 19, 2018, 11:34:46 PM »
Also, don’t mean to beat a dead horsefucker or anything, but p sure we buried the lede here:
I'm more interested in pointing out the behavior here of people towards incels. Incels are downtrodden people. Not every one is a madman. Most are just socially awkward and starving for confidence. Many just may not be good looking. These are people who likely got bullied a lot and this forum sees them as their own bullying target. It takes a real piece of shit to want to hate on the already beat down. But that's what this place is about. A bunch of meek people looking for anything or anyone they can be above so they can step all over them.
that the rest of the forum gets blamed for not being sympathetic enough might be the most appropriate way et could’ve signed off

benjipwns

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1424 on: May 19, 2018, 11:42:38 PM »
Marx wrote Communist Manifesto. Marx wrote about communism. He wrote it was coming and there'd be revolutionary violence.

I pointed out every part of the Manifesto that lead to the death of millions. The ideas therein were carried out and were deadly. They then were repeated in China and Zimbabwe.

You should have been honest and stated exactly what you were doing: That's not real socialism!

But you tried to weasel around the awful thing that you, culry and Mandark were doing. Nah. Fuck you. Enjoy your Holodomor images. I don't know why anyone thought the images would stop by banning me a couple of days. I said they would happen until an apology was made. I don't see an apology. I just see more terrible behavior.

As for the images, they do several things: Apply a serious topic at a visceral level for a community of people who can't handle serious topics. They then repeat over and over, making it feel cheap because that's what happens to serious topics in the hands of jackasses., they get cheapened. They also hold the forum up, hostage-like, in  way that represents Soviet interrogations. Let's call it the gun pointed at you on the table.
A good version of The Manifesto to pick up is the version with Gareth Stedman Jones' extended historiography as an "introduction" (it's actually like 80% of the physical book) that I think is from Penguin Books. It rather extensively covers the history of the writing of The Manifesto by Marx and Engels and properly places its "final form" (Engels re-edited the thing multiple times, including long after Marx's death, especially translations) as a rush job to meet the Revolutionary Wave of 1848 that had already begun.

The notion of revolutionary violence is not exclusive to Marx, nor communism, especially in the wake of the French Revolution where the very concept of revolutions was identified as violent by Burke and other conservatives. Marx and Engels came up intellectually in this same period so it's not shocking that seeing the events of 1848 all over Yurop that they wrote their own version in the same, especially to get it out there in time. I'd have to look it up but I don't think The Manifesto was very successful for decades not "taking off" really until well after Marx died and disappointed everyone with Capital.

Unfortunate that you were banned, even for revolutionary hostage taking only to be faced with Israeli like negotiation tactics by DogMod, but perhaps your new found interest in The Manifesto (or your sparking of interest in any others left in the bubble) will want to look into this version of the work for that introduction. Even if to properly acquire it from the internet store rather than contribute to profit making.

Giving a single work, or a single man, too much power is one of Peterson's main problems. Thinking that it's a "not real communism" argument to refuse to remove agency from people like Lenin, Stalin and Mao who wrote extensively in their own theory and place it in the long dead (even then) Marx's hands for a single work he wrote is a rather troubling anti-intellectual route to take. Especially since, again, despite what Teen Vogue wrote, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. He simply discovered the divine word of the science of socialism that all his predecessors had missed in their sickening and uninformed utopianism about an achieved state of socialism where things just simply work out because they do.

Assimilate

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1425 on: May 19, 2018, 11:45:58 PM »
Marx wrote Communist Manifesto. Marx wrote about communism. He wrote it was coming and there'd be revolutionary violence.

I pointed out every part of the Manifesto that lead to the death of millions. The ideas therein were carried out and were deadly. They then were repeated in China and Zimbabwe.

You should have been honest and stated exactly what you were doing: That's not real socialism!

But you tried to weasel around the awful thing that you, culry and Mandark were doing. Nah. Fuck you. Enjoy your Holodomor images. I don't know why anyone thought the images would stop by banning me a couple of days. I said they would happen until an apology was made. I don't see an apology. I just see more terrible behavior.

As for the images, they do several things: Apply a serious topic at a visceral level for a community of people who can't handle serious topics. They then repeat over and over, making it feel cheap because that's what happens to serious topics in the hands of jackasses., they get cheapened. They also hold the forum up, hostage-like, in  way that represents Soviet interrogations. Let's call it the gun pointed at you on the table.
A good version of The Manifesto to pick up is the version with Gareth Stedman Jones' extended historiography as an "introduction" (it's actually like 80% of the physical book) that I think is from Penguin Books. It rather extensively covers the history of the writing of The Manifesto by Marx and Engels and properly places its "final form" (Engels re-edited the thing multiple times, including long after Marx's death, especially translations) as a rush job to meet the Revolutionary Wave of 1848 that had already begun.

The notion of revolutionary violence is not exclusive to Marx, nor communism, especially in the wake of the French Revolution where the very concept of revolutions was identified as violent by Burke and other conservatives. Marx and Engels came up intellectually in this same period so it's not shocking that seeing the events of 1848 all over Yurop that they wrote their own version in the same, especially to get it out there in time. I'd have to look it up but I don't think The Manifesto was very successful for decades not "taking off" really until well after Marx died and disappointed everyone with Capital.

Unfortunate that you were banned, even for revolutionary hostage taking only to be faced with Israeli like negotiation tactics by DogMod, but perhaps your new found interest in The Manifesto (or your sparking of interest in any others left in the bubble) will want to look into this version of the work for that introduction. Even if to properly acquire it from the internet store rather than contribute to profit making.

Giving a single work, or a single man, too much power is one of Peterson's main problems. Thinking that it's a "not real communism" argument to refuse to remove agency from people like Lenin, Stalin and Mao who wrote extensively in their own theory and place it in the long dead (even then) Marx's hands for a single work he wrote is a rather troubling anti-intellectual route to take. Especially since, again, despite what Teen Vogue wrote, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. He simply discovered the divine word of the science of socialism that all his predecessors had missed in their sickening and uninformed utopianism about an achieved state of socialism where things just simply work out because they do.

Is benji and etoilet the same person?  :thinking

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1426 on: May 19, 2018, 11:48:23 PM »
A good version of The Manifesto to pick up is the version with Gareth Stedman Jones' extended historiography as an "introduction" (it's actually like 80% of the physical book) that I think is from Penguin Books. It rather extensively covers the history of the writing of The Manifesto by Marx and Engels and properly places its "final form" (Engels re-edited the thing multiple times, including long after Marx's death, especially translations) as a rush job to meet the Revolutionary Wave of 1848 that had already begun.

The notion of revolutionary violence is not exclusive to Marx, nor communism, especially in the wake of the French Revolution where the very concept of revolutions was identified as violent by Burke and other conservatives. Marx and Engels came up intellectually in this same period so it's not shocking that seeing the events of 1848 all over Yurop that they wrote their own version in the same, especially to get it out there in time. I'd have to look it up but I don't think The Manifesto was very successful for decades not "taking off" really until well after Marx died and disappointed everyone with Capital.

Unfortunate that you were banned, even for revolutionary hostage taking only to be faced with Israeli like negotiation tactics by DogMod, but perhaps your new found interest in The Manifesto (or your sparking of interest in any others left in the bubble) will want to look into this version of the work for that introduction. Even if to properly acquire it from the internet store rather than contribute to profit making.

Giving a single work, or a single man, too much power is one of Peterson's main problems. Thinking that it's a "not real communism" argument to refuse to remove agency from people like Lenin, Stalin and Mao who wrote extensively in their own theory and place it in the long dead (even then) Marx's hands for a single work he wrote is a rather troubling anti-intellectual route to take. Especially since, again, despite what Teen Vogue wrote, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. He simply discovered the divine word of the science of socialism that all his predecessors had missed in their sickening and uninformed utopianism about an achieved state of socialism where things just simply work out because they do.


(in an amazingly good Hagrid impersonation) "Yer a tankie, benji!"

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1427 on: May 19, 2018, 11:54:26 PM »
Also, don’t mean to beat a dead horsefucker or anything, but p sure we buried the lede here:
I'm more interested in pointing out the behavior here of people towards incels. Incels are downtrodden people. Not every one is a madman. Most are just socially awkward and starving for confidence. Many just may not be good looking. These are people who likely got bullied a lot and this forum sees them as their own bullying target. It takes a real piece of shit to want to hate on the already beat down. But that's what this place is about. A bunch of meek people looking for anything or anyone they can be above so they can step all over them.
that the rest of the forum gets blamed for not being sympathetic enough might be the most appropriate way et could’ve signed off

This, more than anything, is in line with how et's traditionally thought of stuff, even before he got explicitly political. I also think it's kind of indicative of the way a lot of people push back against "identity politics" and I've absolutely got a Nola-length carepost in me on this.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1428 on: May 20, 2018, 12:03:28 AM »
Ironically, I've come around strongly to the position that the Holomodor was less deliberate savagery than the result of a cornucopia of disastrous decisions combined with an institutional mindset that didn't particularly care much about anything like that as long as it wasn't happening visibly in places like Leningrad and Moscow...

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Similarly, I think there's at least some value in the bureaucratic inertia argument that the "Hitler didn't know!" historians best popularized.
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Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1429 on: May 20, 2018, 12:10:57 AM »
I haven't read that much but the "working towards the Fuhrer" frame makes intuitive sense to me.

jakefromstatefarm

  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1430 on: May 20, 2018, 12:41:17 AM »
Giving a single work, or a single man, too much power is one of Peterson's main problems. Thinking that it's a "not real communism" argument to refuse to remove agency from people like Lenin, Stalin and Mao who wrote extensively in their own theory and place it in the long dead (even then) Marx's hands for a single work he wrote is a rather troubling anti-intellectual route to take.
and it’s not exclusive to Peterson, it happens in everyday discourse all the time. I’d push this a step further and say that any narrative that solely -and maybe even primarily- attributes monumental social change to any written sources, esp. canonical ones, is overly ambitious. There’s been a lot of recent (read: past ~25 years) work done on the French enlightenment that suggests that the most widely propagated and causally efficacious literature before and during the revolution wasn’t Rousseau, montesquieu, Voltaire, but instead run of the mill pamphletry fit for common consumption. You can likewise look at Quentin skinners case against reading too much into the private possessions of authors in order to draw inferences about ‘influence’. The texture of social reality is ultimately too complicated to settle for such univocal explanations. How much of the 1968 student protests was actually Marcuse’s fault? I’m skeptical towards any narrative that answers that question with: “a large portion of it” -simply because that seems like a cute way to efface the grievances of the actual people on the ground.

Quote
Especially since, again, despite what Teen Vogue wrote, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. He simply discovered the divine word of the science of socialism that all his predecessors had missed in their sickening and uninformed utopianism about an achieved state of socialism where things just simply work out because they do.
Saint-Simon and Comte annihilated

This, more than anything, is in line with how et's traditionally thought of stuff, even before he got explicitly political. I also think it's kind of indicative of the way a lot of people push back against "identity politics" and I've absolutely got a Nola-length carepost in me on this.
i showed you mine now you

Ironically, I've come around strongly to the position that the Holomodor was less deliberate savagery than the result of a cornucopia of disastrous decisions combined with an institutional mindset that didn't particularly care much about anything like that as long as it wasn't happening visibly in places like Leningrad and Moscow...
funnily enough, this is literally the most contentious area within soviet scholarship. Pinning the famine on Moscow’s desire to break the Ukrainian nationalists kulaks is an argument that is as old as the height of the Cold War. It’s also one that’s routinely challenged.

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harvest of sorrow has been sitting on my bedroom floor for like, 4 years now :doge
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Nola

  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1431 on: May 20, 2018, 01:24:13 AM »
Also, don’t mean to beat a dead horsefucker or anything, but p sure we buried the lede here:
I'm more interested in pointing out the behavior here of people towards incels. Incels are downtrodden people. Not every one is a madman. Most are just socially awkward and starving for confidence. Many just may not be good looking. These are people who likely got bullied a lot and this forum sees them as their own bullying target. It takes a real piece of shit to want to hate on the already beat down. But that's what this place is about. A bunch of meek people looking for anything or anyone they can be above so they can step all over them.
that the rest of the forum gets blamed for not being sympathetic enough might be the most appropriate way et could’ve signed off

This, more than anything, is in line with how et's traditionally thought of stuff, even before he got explicitly political. I also think it's kind of indicative of the way a lot of people push back against "identity politics" and I've absolutely got a Nola-length carepost in me on this.

I'd read it. Just sayin

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1432 on: May 20, 2018, 01:30:32 AM »
I think that it and the Gulag get the most "if only Stalin knew!" whereas I'm pretty sure when Stalin found out who it was happening to he probably extra told them not to do too much about it. Especially not at any cost to the rest of the Union's citizens.

Amusingly, the position with the American Revolution long recognized that pamphlerty to the point where we had elevated them, especially pamephlerty by the intellectuals like The Federalist Papers or Common Sense, to the canon of the revolution centuries ago. (I'm sure the fact that they could be tied to clearly American authors rather than those authors European original sources probably helped. Also the fact that some of them went "ME! I'M THAT ANONYMOUS GUY WHO WROTE THAT!" afterwards.) I think Common Sense still often gets called the first (non-religious) bestseller or at least first American bestseller. (Sold at minimum 100,000 copies, and maybe up to half a million. And was certainly read by even more. When all the colonies together were only 3 million some people.)

Even more amusingly, it was probably public anticipation of Paine's "next big hit" that likely got him in such hot water when they came out versus had he been just another writer of the era. :lol

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1433 on: May 20, 2018, 08:14:08 AM »
I watched that whole 2 hour Canadian debate thing and was most taken by Peterson being an absolutely dreadfully humorless bore who takes any opposing view as direct criticism and personal attacks (even when just quoting his own words). Also that he really doesn't SAY anything the whole debate other than really long winded versions of "The Jews Women Coloreds Witches Dragons Postcultural Marixsts are the worst!", which really wasn't the topic.

Every single time one of the other three told a joke or just had a humorous beat, he'd be sitting there as pouty and miserable as ever, then get up to sound like a whiny and frightened nerd before BOWING after most of his times to speak :lol :lol :lol

The true alpha male warrior to lead us out of the low T beta cuck swamp.

benjipwns

  • your bright ideas always burn me
  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1434 on: May 20, 2018, 08:27:04 AM »
before BOWING after most of his times to speak
And it makes sense that an old king lives in a desiccated tower.

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1435 on: May 20, 2018, 12:22:51 PM »
Peterson is essentially straight from the b&w side of Pleasantville.
yar

HardcoreRetro

  • Punk Mushi no Onna
  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1436 on: May 20, 2018, 01:54:18 PM »
Please donate to etoliate's kickstarter for his game about the death of loads of kids.

That Dragon, Communism.

agrajag

  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1437 on: May 20, 2018, 01:57:36 PM »
Please donate to etoliate's kickstarter for his game about the death of loads of kids.

That Dragon, Communism.

I thought it was called:

Marxist Swamp: Shadow of HoloMordor?

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Re: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ]
« Reply #1438 on: May 20, 2018, 03:48:15 PM »
I thought it was called:

Marxist Swamp: Shadow of HoloMordor?

You can just post "One does not simply kulak into Holodomor." I promise I won't reply, "Yeah, you have to burn grain first."

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1439 on: May 20, 2018, 04:40:16 PM »
No interest in discussing Peterson or anything with this forum. Complete waste of time. I would like to say that you can google "enforced monogamy" and find the research papers and literature on it. It's a social sciences and biology term. It basically means socially preferenced and standardized monogamy.

Nobody's really defending JP's bullshit in this thread any more, but...

First of all "enforced monogamy" in evo-bio studies usually means "we, the researchers, manually imposed monogamy on some fruit flies."

Even if we give JP the benefit of the doubt that he's talking about socially "preferenced and standardized monogamy," what's that going to look like? It'll be a taboo about sex before marriage, enforced by punishing women*. Also, he was pretty explicit in the NYT interview that monogamy was meant to solve the problem of young men who had turned against God because they couldn't get dates. So this is very clearly a system where we use social stigma to limit the choice of girls and women, in order to make them fuck the guys who might otherwise become school shooters.

Which is VERY UNCOOL, and considering the incidence of intimate partner violence, probably a bad idea even based on its own shitty internal logic.


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Nobody's really stanning for JP anymore in this thread, but in case anyone wants to argue the point: OF COURSE it'll be taken out on women and not men! That's how it was traditionally, JP is a big fan of traditional gender roles and hierarchies, and the whole point of this incel talk is that he feels testosterone-driven rambunctiousness needs to be better accommodated so they've got a built-in excuse for fucking around.

PS How does he believe all this stuff but also think it's women who are agents of chaos? Beginning to think this isn't the most rigorous science.

PPS We probably shouldn't assume that Peterson is only thinking of social sanctions.

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/810165492522455040
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