Author Topic: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ] jordan peterson Jordan Peterson JORDAN PETERSON  (Read 308568 times)

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agrajag

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« Reply #1080 on: May 16, 2018, 10:18:32 PM »
If Marx is to blame for Stalin, who's to blame for Hitler?

Jesus is to blame for Jordan Peterson

 :picard

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1081 on: May 16, 2018, 10:25:34 PM »
This is relevant to the conversation we've had. Watch it the whole way through
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:40:25 PM by Leadbelly »

curly

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« Reply #1082 on: May 16, 2018, 10:33:30 PM »
I've read the Manifesto and I have no idea what you're talking about. When it mentions the petty-bourgeois it treats them as a class destined to disappear under capitalism, not an enemy that the proletariat must defeat during the course of a revolution—and "defeat during the course of a revolution" is not synonymous with "commit a genocide against." To put blame on Marx for the Holodomor because Stalin used Marxist rhetoric is akin to blaming Nietzsche for the Holocaust because the Nazis took up the concept of the ubermensch. It takes the most disingenuous reactionary reading to see calls for genocide in the Manifesto—which, by the way, is a piece of agitprop and not a particularly important document for understanding Marx's thought as anyone who's studied him seriously could tell you.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/

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In depicting the most general phases of the development of the proletariat, we traced the more or less veiled civil war, raging within existing society, up to the point where that war breaks out into open revolution, and where the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie lays the foundation for the sway of the proletariat.

This is all based on a historic view of life as oppressor and oppressed, with communism as  the end to that. The violent revolution is inevitable. And he specifically means capitalists by bourgeoisie.

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4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

This is of course was one of the ideas that supplied the gulags with pointless forced labor.

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You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.

In one word, you reproach us with intending to do away with your property. Precisely so; that is just what we intend.

From the moment when labour can no longer be converted into capital, money, or rent, into a social power capable of being monopolised, i.e., from the moment when individual property can no longer be transformed into bourgeois property, into capital, from that moment, you say, individuality vanishes.

You must, therefore, confess that by “individual” you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must, indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.

Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us.

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9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

These ideas feed directly into the logic behind the state actions that lead to the mass starvation and famine of the Ukranians and the "kulaks". All the angry bourgeoisie rhetoric slipped right onto the farmers who were doing better. Redistribution and lack of property made them enemies. The middle class had to be flattened out.

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The lower middle class, the small manufacturer, the shopkeeper, the artisan, the peasant, all these fight against the bourgeoisie, to save from extinction their existence as fractions of the middle class. They are therefore not revolutionary, but conservative. Nay more, they are reactionary, for they try to roll back the wheel of history. If by chance, they are revolutionary, they are only so in view of their impending transfer into the proletariat; they thus defend not their present, but their future interests, they desert their own standpoint to place themselves at that of the proletariat.

I doubt you actually read this shit or know about the Holodomor propaganda.

(Image removed from quote.)

Fat capitalist is now fat kulak.

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The Communists are further reproached with desiring to abolish countries and nationality.

The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto.

The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another will also be put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.

https://ukrainiangenocidewhap.weebly.com/stage-1-classification.html

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The classification seemed relatively simple. The Ukrainians were already outcasts. The Communist Army had imposed their will on the Ukrainians when they overthrew the Ukrainian ruler. The Ukrainians themselves had rich culture and thus a large and deep sense of national pride. The deposing of their leader made them bitter to the idea of communist rule. Their independence had been attacked. Due to this, Stalin felt their national pride undermined his power and the idea of communism as a whole. These traits made the Ukrainians an easy group to target.

Ukranians too much a national identity. Too many kulaks. Something had to be done to them.

And Marx expected violence. It was part of the plan.

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The purposeless massacres perpetrated since the June and October events, the tedious offering of sacrifices since February and March, the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/11/06.htm


There are critiques of Capitalism at the time of Marx by Marx which are of merit. The problem is his solution and make no mistake its his solution. It's his name on these ideas and this angry, resentful, violent rhetoric.

Understood another way:

Marx - None of these bad things you say will happen have any chance of happening because proletariate yada yada..

Narrator - All the bad things happened.

Should I just repost what I've said already, because you haven't actually replied to any of it?

Revolutionary violence doesn't mean genocidal violence, just as overthrowing a monarchy doesn't mean you must kill the entirety of the aristocracy.

Stalin repurposing Marx's rhetoric about the class struggle and applying it to petit-bourgeios peasants is a reflection on Stalin, not Marx. Under Marxist theory the petit-bourgeios are an irrelevant class long before a revolutionary period. The very idea of attempting to institute socialism in a backwards society like czarist Russia goes against orthodox Marxism.

90% of Marx's writings are about capitalism, not a coming socialist or communist state, if you bothered to read anything besides The Communist Manifesto, the least essential of Marx's published works from a theoretical perspective.

What a precious liberal you are, clutching your pearls over Marx's angry rhetoric, as if he had just gone easier the class conflict could be resolved amicably.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:47:51 PM by curly »

Mandark

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« Reply #1083 on: May 16, 2018, 11:12:10 PM »
This is relevant to the conversation we've had. Watch it the whole way through

you must be new here

etiolate

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« Reply #1084 on: May 17, 2018, 12:04:14 AM »
We're talking about the killing of millions of people. Revolutionary violence tends to be in high death counts. You're being a stickler about genocidal violence for reasons unknown. The question was Is Marx responsible for Communism? Are Marx's ideas related to the millions killed via Communism? The answer is yes. You read Marx and the ideas are there. And for some ungodly reason, the failed agricultural and private property ideas still get repeated to this day.

There's little repurposing there. The "it was only Stalin" rejoinder puts you in the camp of Hitler had some good ideas. It's dumb, dishonest and disgusting.

curly

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« Reply #1085 on: May 17, 2018, 01:02:06 AM »
Is Adam Smith responsible for the millions of deaths under capitalism? Is John Locke responsible for the genocide of native populations? Marx supported using violence to achieve his political ends, he didn't support the wholesale elimination of populations, which is a pretty fucking huge difference. I'm tempted to ask what you think Marx's ideas on property and agriculture(?) are, but I know it will be some horrific mutilation (maybe if I say this a third time it'll get through: prescriptions for what the future society should look like are a small part of Marx's oeuvre, which you would know if you were actually familiar with him). The Soviet and Chinese agricultural polices are derived from Leninist and Maoist theories about how to transition to socialism in a largely peasant society, a situation whose very existence is a departure from orthodox Marxism.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:08:15 AM by curly »

curly

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« Reply #1086 on: May 17, 2018, 01:09:26 AM »
by engaging with etiolate, you have already lost
I know and I still do it :goty2

Mandark

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« Reply #1087 on: May 17, 2018, 01:12:22 AM »
Revolutionary violence tends to be in high death counts.

That certainly wasn't true at the time of Marx's writing. The two main examples of violent revolution (the United States and France) were absolutely dwarfed by the carnage of great power wars/wars of conquest.

Also we're missing that when Marx was writing, there were practically no republics in Europe. It's one thing to say political violence is beyond the pale when there's another clear avenue for nonviolent change. But even the parliamentary monarchies had extremely restrictive suffrage rules*. At a certain point the threat of violence is the only credible leverage the majority of those populations had.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
In England it was like 5% of adult men, so 2-3% of the total population. And when they passed the first Reform Act to expand the franchise, the PM explicitly cited preventing a revolution as a reason for the bill.Go figure!
[close]

Mandark

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« Reply #1088 on: May 17, 2018, 01:13:19 AM »
Also, since Marx led to Eduard Bernstein, does he get credit for all the lives saved by socialized healthcare? Can we get a ruling on this?

curly

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« Reply #1089 on: May 17, 2018, 01:15:08 AM »
no but he does get the blame for all who have died at the hands of the obamacare death panels

etiolate

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« Reply #1090 on: May 17, 2018, 01:40:05 AM »
I'll state this once more and you can allow yourself the chance to comprehend it or not.

Marx's solutions to capitalism and his communist groundwork, while not explicitly murderous, are so terribly misguided and resentful towards the exceptional that they naturally lead to death. He is not absolved of what happened. He is the seed for what happened. The acts that killed millions are an extension of his ideas.

That was the question at hand. I answered it.


agrajag

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« Reply #1091 on: May 17, 2018, 01:40:38 AM »
 :lol

etiolate

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« Reply #1092 on: May 17, 2018, 02:17:00 AM »
by engaging with etiolate, you have already lost

Because I don't enter into mental altercations that I haven't already won.

I'm not a gambler. I'm an opportunist.

Mandark

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« Reply #1093 on: May 17, 2018, 02:29:03 AM »
Marx's solutions to capitalism and his communist groundwork, while not explicitly murderous, are so terribly misguided and resentful towards the exceptional that they naturally lead to death. He is not absolved of what happened. He is the seed for what happened. The acts that killed millions are an extension of his ideas.

lmao

curly

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« Reply #1094 on: May 17, 2018, 02:37:59 AM »
when you definitely know what you're talking about

Mandark

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« Reply #1095 on: May 17, 2018, 02:45:09 AM »
It's actually the same shit they try to pull in Atlas Shrugged and Anarchy, The State, and Utopia, but where Rand and Nozick were trying to deliberately run an okeydoke, et's just never read the source material and figures that Das Kapital is basically just the scene from the Incredibles where Dash has to slow down in a race with his classmates.

etiolate

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« Reply #1096 on: May 17, 2018, 02:49:26 AM »
I feel like you guys have earned this.


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In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man’s own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

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The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:04:57 AM by Great Rumbler »

etiolate

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« Reply #1097 on: May 17, 2018, 02:53:03 AM »
The famine in Ukraine began in late 1931 during the Soviet Union’s first Five-Year plan, which called for rapid industrialization and the forced collectivization of agriculture. During the collectivization drive that began in 1929, private farms were abolished, and in their place state-owned and collective farms were established. Ostensibly run by the collective farmers themselves, the collective farms were actually controlled and monitored by Soviet or Communist Party officials. At the same time, successful, well off-farmers, labelled kulaks (according to the Soviet regime, these were exploiters of poorer peasants), were persecuted, stripped of their possessions, arrested and deported. Many were sent to far-off lands, and some were even executed. In practice, any farmer opposed to collectivization, even if not well off, was often labelled a kulak or kulak supporter.

Most peasants (subsistence and small-scale farmers) in the Soviet Union were reluctant to give up private farming to join the new collectives. In Ukraine, which had a strong tradition of private farming, resistance was particularly strong. In some cases, Ukrainian peasants and urban dwellers resented collectivization and other policies that emanated from Moscow. Reaction to these policies reinforced sentiment for more autonomy or even independence for Ukraine. Ukrainians had established an independent state in 1918, but this attempt at achieving full-fledged statehood failed by 1920 owing mainly to military intervention from Communist Russia. In 1922 Ukraine became incorporated into the Soviet Union as a republic, retaining nominal forms of statehood and autonomy.

The establishment of state and collective farms in the Soviet Union was justified by its leaders as an essential part of building socialism. Soviet officials also considered them more reliable than individual farms as sources of surplus grain production, which was to fulfill compulsory state grain collection quotas. Grain collected by the state was used to feed the rapidly growing urban population, and for exports to finance purchases of machinery abroad to support the industrialization drive. However, the collectivization of agriculture led to chaos and a drop in farm production in Ukraine, which was a key grain-producing area in the Soviet Union. Despite this, the Soviet leadership maintained high quotas for Ukraine’s farmers to deliver grain to the state.

When famine broke out in Ukraine—triggered by confiscatory measures taken by Soviet officials to fulfill unrealistically high grain collection targets in the wake of the substantial drop in agricultural production—top Soviet Ukrainian government leaders informed the Kremlin of starvation, requesting aid and a reduction in the grain quota for the country. The Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, called instead for an intensification of grain collection efforts. He also voiced his distrust of Ukrainian officials, suspecting many of them as nationalists, and expressed fear that opposition to his policies in Ukraine could intensify, possibly leading to Ukraine’s secession from the Soviet Union.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:04:43 AM by Great Rumbler »

Mandark

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« Reply #1098 on: May 17, 2018, 02:54:20 AM »
Pictures of atrocities didn't guilt me into supporting the invasion of Iraq fifteen years ago, not going to make me pretend you're smart now.

etiolate

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« Reply #1099 on: May 17, 2018, 02:55:57 AM »
This doesn't stop until you admit that Communist Manifesto is the basis of the policies that starved these people.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:04:22 AM by Great Rumbler »

curly

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« Reply #1100 on: May 17, 2018, 02:57:16 AM »
etoilet, to himself: "another mental altercation won"

etiolate

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« Reply #1101 on: May 17, 2018, 02:57:56 AM »
Now it spreads across the forum.

Mandark

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« Reply #1102 on: May 17, 2018, 02:58:00 AM »
facts don't care about your feelings  :(

curly

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« Reply #1103 on: May 17, 2018, 03:06:34 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

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This doesn't stop until you admit that Communist Manifesto is the basis of the policies that starved these people.

I don't negotiate with terrorists

etiolate

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« Reply #1104 on: May 17, 2018, 03:07:58 AM »
You don't need to negotiate with evil when you're already breaking bread with it.

curly

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« Reply #1105 on: May 17, 2018, 03:11:45 AM »
starting to feel that I've won this mental altercation

Mandark

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« Reply #1106 on: May 17, 2018, 03:14:35 AM »
Since Ho Chi Minh quoted a paragraph of the US Declaration of Independence for his own Vietnamese Declaration of Independence, does that mean Thomas Jefferson is responsible for both sides of the Vietnam War?

etiolate

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« Reply #1107 on: May 17, 2018, 03:15:15 AM »
ooh so hungry for curly's whataboutism

here you go buddy!

golly that meal of curly's apologism is so heavy, we're all gonna have to sleep it off!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:03:24 AM by Great Rumbler »

Momo

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« Reply #1108 on: May 17, 2018, 03:27:16 AM »
If you guys are just going to keep antagonizing etiolate this is going to happen, ignore him, engage him on his points or drag him to debate on your terms, but if you're going to do the usual spiel he's just going to go postal oneday and you'll all be to blame.

Momo

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« Reply #1109 on: May 17, 2018, 03:29:08 AM »
Oh I see i'm too late, well luckily i'm not the one getting shot, thanks ocean  :shaqc

etiolate

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« Reply #1110 on: May 17, 2018, 03:30:04 AM »
Just be honest. I am honest with you all even when you're piles of shit.

I don't fuck around.

This whole thing crosses a fat fucking line with me.

You're trying to argue the grandaddy of communism has nothing to do with the practice of communism. I'm not surprised this comes from completely unaccountable and awful people, but this is one case where I don't let your slimy shit slide.

curly

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« Reply #1111 on: May 17, 2018, 03:31:10 AM »
 ::) I spent the entire last page replying to him, don't blame me for him being a manbaby. personal responsibility u kno :blessup

etiolate

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« Reply #1112 on: May 17, 2018, 03:38:24 AM »
you have nothing to lose but your chains curly

curly

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« Reply #1113 on: May 17, 2018, 03:48:43 AM »
that doesn't even make sense in this context dummy

seriously, before hitting post, give what you wrote a quick once-over. make sure you have a subject and a verb that are somewhat related to each other. check that there is an actual thought behind each sentence. it'll make your posts 10x more coherent.

Mandark

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« Reply #1114 on: May 17, 2018, 03:53:16 AM »
This all reminds me that this thread had a bit of discussion of Nietzsche a while ago, specifically arguing whether he was anti-semitic. I think Stro was defending him and it was wrapped up when jake had a very nice post summarizing what was known and putting it in the context of his contemporaries. Nobody came close to assigning him blame for the rise of the Nazis, as I recall.

I guess we got lucky to not be spammed with pictures of Holocaust victims as a result.

etiolate

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« Reply #1115 on: May 17, 2018, 03:58:35 AM »
This is you:

scoring points on the bore> putting your worthless internet pride over the truth of history

Let me explain this very bluntly. Marx gave out a very bad idea. That idea lead to various multitudes of death. I am only posting images of the famine. There's still the gulags and the purging that come from the manifesto's hatred of dissent.

And this wasn't a bad first try. No, this horror was repeated. This revolutionary terror was repeated. Why? Because this horror lasted so long that it weeded out the artistic voice that could tell us of its nature. You aren't smart. You aren't right. You're a political equivalent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I have no respect for you, no empathy for your ignorance and no compromise for your childish mistakes.


You can reject it and move up or you can be the guy who passed the buck on famine. And mass incarceration. And forced labor. On horror.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:03:05 AM by Great Rumbler »

Oblivion

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« Reply #1116 on: May 17, 2018, 04:03:32 AM »
I think the most surprising thing about this current discussion is that for some bizarre reason I thought etoilet wouldn't be dumb/lazy enough to make the asinine Marx ---- > Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot connection that every right-winger since the 19th century has . I mean, I know he likes to play in the fever swamp, but only enough to go waist deep, and not actually swim in it.

Again, I don't know why I thought this, but I did.  :doge

curly

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« Reply #1117 on: May 17, 2018, 04:16:21 AM »
Quote
scoring points on the bore> putting your worthless internet pride over the truth of history

I mean come on. Have we totally given up on our signs having meaning?

etiolate

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« Reply #1118 on: May 17, 2018, 04:28:41 AM »
It's not hard to admit you're wrong unless your nature is evil

enjoy your images

Soon your eyes will gloss over these morbid flashes of chemicals and time. The futures lost long ago will merge and meld like fresh iron in the blacksmith's fire. A bit of old versus a bit of new. Silly souls who didn't work out quite right. An unfortunate generation. A thousond or a million. Bones wearing skin like a cat wears an April rain storm. Death in the eyes. Just a mistake, really.

Thanos had a point you know.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:02:55 AM by Great Rumbler »

Mandark

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« Reply #1119 on: May 17, 2018, 04:32:23 AM »
I think the most surprising thing about this current discussion is that for some bizarre reason I thought etoilet wouldn't be dumb/lazy enough to make the asinine Marx ---- > Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot connection that every right-winger since the 19th century has . I mean, I know he likes to play in the fever swamp, but only enough to go waist deep, and not actually swim in it.

Again, I don't know why I thought this, but I did.  :doge

Marx was a clear influence on labor/social democratic parties for a long time (hence my remark earlier about Eduard Bernstein), which means it's obvious from just a very brief look at history that exposure to his ideas doesn't inexorably lead to massive atrocities. I guess that's the point, though? Marxism is simultaneously the slaughter of innocents, and any social welfare policy, so food stamps are a step towards totalitarianism, etc.

Plus drawing straight lines from theorists to politicians is a bit of a mug's game. There were a lot of blog posts on the intellectual history of the neoconservatives (Straussians, ex-Trots, etc.) but I never felt that they gave me any more insight on the subject than just saying they were assholes with a wildly optimistic view of the US military's capabilities.

etiolate

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« Reply #1120 on: May 17, 2018, 04:34:16 AM »
You could have just said you were wrong.

Mandark

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« Reply #1121 on: May 17, 2018, 04:41:14 AM »
Soon your eyes will gloss over these morbid flashes of chemicals and time. The futures lost long ago will merge and meld like fresh iron in the blacksmith's fire. A bit of old versus a bit of new. Silly souls who didn't work out quite right. An unfortunate generation. A thousond or a million. Bones wearing skin like a cat wears an April rain storm. Death in the eyes. Just a mistake, really.

Thanos had a point you know.

Want to save this amazing prose just in case.

etiolate

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« Reply #1122 on: May 17, 2018, 04:43:32 AM »
Just in case it gets to your employer that you excuse mass murder?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
"Your employer" obviously j/k
[close]
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:02:21 AM by Great Rumbler »

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #1123 on: May 17, 2018, 06:06:12 AM »
Shouting Hitler and posting horrible pictures screams intelligent debate.

Oblivion

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« Reply #1124 on: May 17, 2018, 06:07:22 AM »
So...I'm pretty cool with the idea of banning etoilet, now.

Just throwing that out there.

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #1125 on: May 17, 2018, 06:10:09 AM »
Why not use the one thing that's worse than whatever he posted against him

Communism

Communism

Communism

Communism

Communism

Communism

agrajag

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« Reply #1126 on: May 17, 2018, 07:21:07 AM »
If you guys are just going to keep antagonizing etiolate this is going to happen, ignore him, engage him on his points or drag him to debate on your terms, but if you're going to do the usual spiel he's just going to go postal oneday and you'll all be to blame.

But what about personal accountability you fucking commie?

Momo

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1127 on: May 17, 2018, 07:31:05 AM »
If you guys are just going to keep antagonizing etiolate this is going to happen, ignore him, engage him on his points or drag him to debate on your terms, but if you're going to do the usual spiel he's just going to go postal oneday and you'll all be to blame.

But what about personal accountability you fucking commie?
I'm just out here trying to not get my ass shot  :doge

Great Rumbler

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1128 on: May 17, 2018, 09:33:02 AM »
You guys can go back to arguing with etiolate in a couple days, so long as he keeps the spamming of pics of dead/starving kids confined to this thread.
dog

Rufus

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1129 on: May 17, 2018, 10:58:41 AM »
Because I don't enter into mental altercations that I believe to have already won.
FTFY

Now it spreads across the forum.
The actions of a stable individual.

You're trying to argue the grandaddy of communism has nothing to do with the practice of communism.
No they weren't.

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1130 on: May 17, 2018, 11:11:14 AM »
FWIW no one here actually supports full on communism, I don't think?

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1131 on: May 17, 2018, 11:26:54 AM »
Nope, I like money too much
püp

CatsCatsCats

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1132 on: May 17, 2018, 11:35:41 AM »
by engaging with etiolate, you have already lost

Because I don't enter into mental altercations that I haven't already won.

I'm not a gambler. I'm an opportunist.

I’m just glad he admitted this. If the toilet thinks you have a valid point against him, he will avoid you. Who is the coward?

Leadbelly

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1133 on: May 17, 2018, 11:54:39 AM »
lol this just popped up on Youtube as a recommended video. Perhaps partly because of this thread, although I have watched Peterson videos before.


Something I mentioned in the other thread:

Quote
The other thing is this guy (although I don't know enough about it) seems to look at it from a standpoint of classical Marxism, something I think at least some of these intellectuals would actually agree (although I don't know if he agress with it) is dead.

Certainly I think that is the case. Identity Politics, through its separating of identity groups and their grievances, encourages difference. Marxism was more about fostering solidarity through more universal causes. Common cause. The main focus of Modern Leftist politics seems to be more around minority issues. The main focus of Marxism is of course class.

That said, people on the far-left are not capitalists. You can't completely separate Marxist thought from Left-wing politics, it's just that the main focus has switched from proletariat vs bourgeoisie to oppressor and oppressed.

I don't particularly like the way Jordan Peterson defines the far-Left because it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory, whether he actually intends that or not. That said, I understand the need to define it a certain way. It isn't the Left in general that is problem in itself. You have to be more specfic. The Postmodern/neo-marxists seems to me to be an attempt by Peterson to more specifically define people he is critical of.

As this video shows, it isn't really classical Marxism he is talking about. Sure, he makes comments about Marxism, but as I mentioned before, I don't think that is actually what he means by Postmodern/neo-marxist.

agrajag

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1134 on: May 17, 2018, 01:11:16 PM »
Spamming images of victims of starvation is really tasteless and immature but, after some consideration, would not be out of character for Jordan Peterson.

I did say that Peterson acts hysterical. So do his fanboys apparently.

Oblivion

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1135 on: May 17, 2018, 01:19:11 PM »
what if etiolate just wanted to get banned so he can finally say he has been

The thought crossed my mind as well.

Human Snorenado

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1136 on: May 17, 2018, 02:23:01 PM »
How can etoilet drive the conversation if he's unjustly banned for being a gratuitous c*nt? MODZ PLZ

yar

Great Rumbler

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1137 on: May 17, 2018, 02:56:04 PM »
what if etiolate just wanted to get banned so he can finally say he has been

:thinking
dog

Mandark

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1138 on: May 17, 2018, 04:14:11 PM »
FWIW no one here actually supports full on communism, I don't think?

I'm a certified mixed-economy pragmatist squish. I just think if someone's going to get hysterical about a 19th century economist they ought to do the reading (or at least a more plausible job of faking it).

curly

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Re: The Intellectual Dank Wad [ ot ] Hour Long Youtubes unf unf
« Reply #1139 on: May 17, 2018, 05:38:47 PM »
FWIW no one here actually supports full on communism, I don't think?

I would call myself a democratic socialist