Author Topic: The Intellectual Wank Dad [ ot ] jordan peterson Jordan Peterson JORDAN PETERSON  (Read 306936 times)

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Assimilate

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« Reply #1140 on: May 17, 2018, 05:44:14 PM »
what if etiolate just wanted to get banned so he can finally say he has been

:thinking

 :bolo

cucked. hard.

FWIW no one here actually supports full on communism, I don't think?

I would call myself a democratic socialist
Go hang out in Venezuela. Maybe you'll enjoy yourself. Or maybe you'll die of starvation.   :trumps

naff

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« Reply #1141 on: May 17, 2018, 07:39:25 PM »
lol this just popped up on Youtube as a recommended video. Perhaps partly because of this thread, although I have watched Peterson videos before.


Something I mentioned in the other thread:

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The other thing is this guy (although I don't know enough about it) seems to look at it from a standpoint of classical Marxism, something I think at least some of these intellectuals would actually agree (although I don't know if he agress with it) is dead.

Certainly I think that is the case. Identity Politics, through its separating of identity groups and their grievances, encourages difference. Marxism was more about fostering solidarity through more universal causes. Common cause. The main focus of Modern Leftist politics seems to be more around minority issues. The main focus of Marxism is of course class.

That said, people on the far-left are not capitalists. You can't completely separate Marxist thought from Left-wing politics, it's just that the main focus has switched from proletariat vs bourgeoisie to oppressor and oppressed.

I don't particularly like the way Jordan Peterson defines the far-Left because it almost sounds like a conspiracy theory, whether he actually intends that or not. That said, I understand the need to define it a certain way. It isn't the Left in general that is problem in itself. You have to be more specfic. The Postmodern/neo-marxists seems to me to be an attempt by Peterson to more specifically define people he is critical of.

As this video shows, it isn't really classical Marxism he is talking about. Sure, he makes comments about Marxism, but as I mentioned before, I don't think that is actually what he means by Postmodern/neo-marxist.

The way he characterizes the left as so unified behind the post-modern neo-marxist ideals he abhores with liberal academics and the media pulling the strings at the top is a conspiracy theory, and a way to appear consistent in his derision of the left while also being super vague on what exact points he is being derisive of.   

Pretty similar to the way nazis raised the spectre of cultural bolshevism to deride political opponents - specifically jews. Neo-fascist sites like rightpedia are all about it http://en.rightpedia.info/w/Cultural_Marxism

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Leadbelly

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« Reply #1142 on: May 17, 2018, 08:12:42 PM »
The way he characterizes the left as so unified behind the post-modern neo-marxist ideals he abhores with liberal academics and the media pulling the strings at the top is a conspiracy theory, and a way to appear consistent in his derision of the left while also being super vague on what exact points he is being derisive of.   

Pretty similar to the way nazis raised the spectre of cultural bolshevism to deride political opponents - specifically jews. Neo-fascist sites like rightpedia are all about it http://en.rightpedia.info/w/Cultural_Marxism

(Image removed from quote.)

Again it does come off like a conspiracy theory. Is he really saying the left is unified behind this banner though or is it a way to be more specific about who he is attaacking. It sounds to me like his beef is with intersectionality.

much in the same way as these people.


Maybe what Peterson chooses to describe as postmodern neo marxists, these peope describe as intersectionality.

Either way, even if you think he is talking nonsense, it is highly unlikely it is some kind of dog whistling to Nazis. I'm not sure if that is the angle you are coming at it by linking that stuff, but I doubt that is what he is doing. That in itself is kind conspiratorial thinking.

Incidentally, on the subject of 'cultural Marxism' Brendan O'neill makes the argument as to why what is happening on Campus is not cultural Marxism.

This speech wasn't specifically on Cultural Marxism but he does mention it.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 08:25:31 PM by Leadbelly »

Oblivion

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« Reply #1143 on: May 17, 2018, 08:35:49 PM »
Go hang out in Venezuela. Maybe you'll enjoy yourself. Or maybe you'll die of starvation.   :trumps

:thinking

CatsCatsCats

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« Reply #1144 on: May 17, 2018, 09:39:04 PM »
Your honor, let the record show that etoilet, a man who thinks of himself and portrays himself as a true intellectual, perhaps THE singular intellectual voice of this godforsaken sewage dump, also thinks the way to win an intellectual discussion is to go out of his way to find the most horrific pictures of human atrocities he can find to shock you so you can't disagree with him, while also saying he will not engage unless he thinks he's already "won" the conversation.

Newsfeed and unban, it’s tough but fair

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1145 on: May 17, 2018, 10:38:51 PM »
Etoilet come back and post some videos.  Forget this nonsense.


Oblivion

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« Reply #1146 on: May 17, 2018, 10:54:54 PM »
Leadbelly, what do you think of Trump saying he wants to jail people in the press?

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1147 on: May 17, 2018, 10:57:43 PM »
Leadbelly, what do you think of Trump saying he wants to jail people in the press?

Well, I know he wants to tighten up the libel laws in the US similar to UK libel laws. That in itself is outrageous. UK libel laws are fucking mental. Trump is no defender of free speech, make no mistake about that.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:10:48 PM by Leadbelly »

naff

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« Reply #1148 on: May 17, 2018, 10:59:07 PM »
Either way, even if you think he is talking nonsense, it is highly unlikely it is some kind of dog whistling to Nazis. I'm not sure if that is the angle you are coming at it by linking that stuff, but I doubt that is what he is doing. That in itself is kind conspiratorial thinking.

I don't think he's a fascist, but he uses the term to generalise and discredit academia, activist movements and other groups he lumps in with the post-modern neo-marxist gang as ruining society, in a way that parallels with historic use by some pretty distasteful groups. I doubt it's an intentional dog-whistle to the nazi conspiracy theory, but like et spamming pics of people dead and starving at the hands of communism, there's a strong pathos in his argument.

He definitely dislikes the use of intersectionality in framing issues, the problem for him he sees it as increasing tribalism in his eyes instead of resolving it. But it's only a part of his pathos. He mis-characterises intersectional thought and diversity to make a case for individualism. Slightly incongruous with his focus on white privilege making it harder for white people to act successfully as individuals due to unfairly being blamed for minority marginalisation and the (possible, he makes clear to point out) misdeeds of our ancestors, also his penchant for generalization of opposing groups as swathes of sheeple suckling at the post-modern neo-marxist teet.


if yt tag doesnt link properly, starts at 1h37m38s

To paraphrase Peterson here, and this is getting into his conclusion; there are more differences within the defined groups than between them, and the diversity creates more division than inclusivity.

And again, he is so frustrated, and just can't understand why post-modernists have made the canonical distinctions they've made: Gender, Ethnicity, Sexual Proclivity and Gender Identity. These dimensions across which the post-modern neo-marxists have defined people are too narrow. The post-modern need to separate, label and categorise people into these separate groups, this constant search for; and institutionalization, of diversity through initiatives like affirmative action, simply creates more division and tribalism. Individualism is the only answer.

Clearly cheeky pete is making a bit of a joke here, these are the lines down which the most clear discriminations have been made against people as groups regardless of their individual attributes. Surely he at least see's the logic of why those groups were targeted? I've seen etoilet use this whataboutism in the past. Where do you stop taking marginalisation based on difference into account?

"here's some ways people differ! intelligence, temperament (haha, hohoho  :lol), geography, historical time (yes he explains: you live now and not 100 years ago), attractiveness, youth, health, sex (as in having it); women have advantages, men have advantages, maybe one has more than the other - it's not self evident! women live about 8 years longer than men, they're multi-orgasmic (you sly-dog peterson), athleticism, wealth, family-structure, friendship (how many friends you have. sad), and education. WHY NOT THOSE OTHER DIMENSIONS?" Peterson finally asks, exasperated. The other dimensions being the "post-modernist" defined, Gender, Ethnicity, Sexual Proclivity and Gender Identity.

Peterson claims ignorance to why Race is considered a key point of difference. Not just disingenuous, but also mischaracterizes the issue: there is a lot of compassion and assistance provided for the lesser-abled (physically and mentally), the less wealthy and those with poor education. Particularly so in the more social leaning side of social capitalist democracies.
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Leadbelly

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« Reply #1149 on: May 17, 2018, 11:08:37 PM »
I'll watch it tomorrow. It's a bit late here.

Mandark

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« Reply #1150 on: May 18, 2018, 12:25:28 AM »
I don't think he's a fascist, but he uses the term to generalise and discredit academia, activist movements and other groups he lumps in with the post-modern neo-marxist gang as ruining society, in a way that parallels with historic use by some pretty distasteful groups.
Speaking of historic similarities, I was mildly chilled when I saw the similarities between Julius Evola and Jordan Peterson. Western esotericism is for crazy people.

My comp for Peterson is Robert P. George, who's a lot more boring.

benjipwns

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« Reply #1151 on: May 18, 2018, 01:28:46 AM »
The Marx thing is sheer intellectual cowardice on Peterson's part, using the specter of 20th century mass killers to tar the thought of a philosopher from the 19th without engaging the content of his thought, and if anyone on the left tried that sort of guilt-by-association he and his buddies would be up in arms.

If you know about the holodomor and have read the communist manifesto then the linking between the two is pretty obvious. The language of the propaganda against the "Kulaks" is straight out of the manifesto.

The wiping out of dissent is in the manifesto. The confiscation of property from emigrates and "rebels",which the Soviets took to however a degree they wished and filled up their gulags.

Just read the manifesto and look at what happened.
Despite what you might have read in Teen Vogue, Marx didn't invent communism or socialism. And Marxism-Leninism was basically Lenin and Trotsky going "this won't work! here's what will!"

And then Stalin went "anyway, fuck those guys, time to settle my long term inferiority complex growing up in the Russian caste system by taking it out on the world at large!"

Most importantly, Marx was absolutely obsessed with historical determinism to a level that he didn't bother elaborating on how his ultimate states come about because it considered it scientifically proven to happen because he said so. And often would attack his followers who tried to explain it, especially the transition period to communism, for undermining the science. One result of this, and what Lenin and Stalin both had to grapple with is that Marx's very specific stages didn't apply to Russia, like, at all, they were written for the UK and a prospective unified and industrial German state that didn't even come to exist until a few years before Marx died and years after he wrote the Manifesto. (His opinion on France was all over the place, like everyone else's opinions on France always.)

Curly actually pointed this out to you, twice, before you started posting (what I assume were) images of the victims of Communist crimes:
Under Marxist theory the petit-bourgeios are an irrelevant class long before a revolutionary period. The very idea of attempting to institute socialism in a backwards society like czarist Russia goes against orthodox Marxism.
The Soviet and Chinese agricultural polices are derived from Leninist and Maoist theories about how to transition to socialism in a largely peasant society, a situation whose very existence is a departure from orthodox Marxism.
Nowhere was he hand-waiving Marx by blaming Stalin, he was pointing out that Marx didn't even have any reference material on the situation that Lenin and Stalin came into that they could reference. Instead Lenin, and Stalin and Mao and so on, tried to fill Marx's holes and then force it to fit into their situation, then they're the ones who did the hand waiving by being quite violent against anyone who said they were interpreting Marx wrong.

These disputes are literally the story of the endless anti-revisionist breaks in the parties over the 20th century and still to today that you should have spent your time checking out, because they are endlessly amusing, while you were on marxists.org rather than GIS the Holodomor or whatever: https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/erol.htm

benjipwns

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« Reply #1152 on: May 18, 2018, 01:36:48 AM »
Since Ho Chi Minh quoted a paragraph of the US Declaration of Independence for his own Vietnamese Declaration of Independence, does that mean Thomas Jefferson is responsible for both sides of the Vietnam War?
FACT: Thomas Jefferson was rabidly Pro-France, lived there many years, and supported the Revolution even into the bloodiest days

FACT: Thomas Jefferson engaged in the first foreign wars by sending the Navy to attack the Barbary Pirates

FACT: Thomas Jefferson asked for a declaration of war from Congress AFTER the first crossing and battle by Naval ships he ordered into battle

FACT: Thomas Jefferson bailed out France's expensive ongoing wars by paying them for Louisiana

FACT: Thomas Jefferson founded West Point

FACT: Thomas Jefferson supported land redistribution, the radicalism and scope of which depended on his current financial situation and general mood

FACT: I see you horsefuckers and come straight at you.

Mandark

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« Reply #1153 on: May 18, 2018, 01:38:05 AM »
Lenin, and Stalin and Mao and so on, tried to fill Marx's holes

Very on-brand post for The Bore.

Momo

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« Reply #1154 on: May 18, 2018, 01:54:15 AM »


summing up essentially the people this thread is about

benjipwns

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« Reply #1155 on: May 18, 2018, 02:12:15 AM »
The 'Intellectual Dark Web' Is Just Rehashing Old P.C. Controversies in New Media
Quote from: Elizabeth Nolan Brown, reason's newest adorkable editor
Mathematician Eric Weinstein, managing director of Thiel Capital, coined the term Intellectual Dark Web some while back, but it only became a subject of mass controversy after Bari Weiss published a recent New York Times profile of the crew. Weiss lumps Weinstein, his evolutionary biologist brother Bret, and about a dozen other high-profile, often controversial folks in the IDW ranks, including "New Atheism" guru Sam Harris, American Enterprise Institute scholar Christina Hoff Sommers, "comedian" Dave Rubin, conservative pundit Ben Shapiro, author and academic Jordan Peterson, and Quillette founder Claire Lehmann.

A diverse group in terms of work backgrounds and political leanings, what they share is a disdain for modern center-left orthodoxies—and a view of themselves as victims of unfortunate and intensifying forces: identity politics, feminist militancy, transgender activism, illiberalism around speech.

...

The IDW view of their evolving position seems, at minimum, like a selective remembering of recent history. Figures like Harris and Sommers have been controversial for most of their careers, and certainly no one was rolling out the mainstream political welcome wagon for them a decade ago. If anything, both are less fringy figures now than they were 10 years ago.

The last decade was also littered with battles about evolutionary biology and psychology, debates that built on gender wars started decades earlier. Just how physiologically different males and females are and how much this matters has long been a subject of intense and fraught debate; it is not some newfangled concern that millennial SJWs have suddenly seized. Similarly, partisans have been debating political correctness on college campuses for decades.

I don't buy the notion that IDW ideas are only now becoming beyond the pale. Nor am I convinced that they're actually so taboo these days.

As Weiss points out, this is a crowd that has built followings on new-media platforms like YouTube and Twitter rather than relying solely on legacy media, academic publishing, and other traditional routes to getting opinions heard.

...

Presenting themselves as brave and imperiled truth sayers facing down an increasingly "politically correct" populace, they offer their fans an immensely appealing proposition: It's not you, it's them, and liking us is a sign that you are not like them. We are rational, radical where it's called for, able to take a joke, and part of America's great intellectual tradition—everything the speech-policing, biology-denying left is not. And anything we say or share that angers the left is just proof of how insane they have become.

There are indeed a lot of loony people on the left, as there are in most ideological spheres. And college kids have indeed mounted some passionately stupid crusades in the past few years. Pushing back against these people, exposing their hypocrisies, and riling up outrage over their antics is sometimes necessary and often fun. It is always good for garnering attention. But it is also easy
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"Israelis like to build," reads one Ben Shapiro tweet*. "Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage." Shapiro is also fond of pointing out on the regular that he thinks trans people shouldn't have the right to self-determination.

Peterson, a psychology professor at the University of Toronto, skyrocketed to international renown for refusing to address transgender students by their preferred pronouns. His YouTube videos and recently published self-help book are full of sensible advice—interspersed with wisdom about how all feminists have "an unconscious wish for brutal male domination," rants against postmodernism (which has reached almost mythical megavillain status in Peterson's worldview), threats to hit other academics, and goofy parables about lobsters.

Basically, Peterson is like the ideological equivalent of a fad diet: The basic advice is sound—and it may even help you reach your goals—but you could skip the more esoteric elements, like eating for your bloodtype or believing that wearing lipstick in the workplace is asking to be sexually harassed, and wind up in the same place.

Rubin regularly makes absurdly reductionist statements about various groups he opposes ("The leftist media hates gamers" because "they don't like people who solve problems"), relies on bastardized evo-psych to make his points (today's gender norms are good because they've existed "from our hunter-gather days"), and makes videos that instruct people on how "trigger" progressives.
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When your fan base is predicated largely on serving up quickly digestible, dopamine-triggering outrage day after day, week after week, it's very easy to lose perspective, to pander to their (and your own) worst impulses, and to wind up engaging with only the most ridiculous of the other side's arguments. To spend less and less time on the things you want to change and more and more on how stupid the things that other people want to change are.

It is not a career model that encourages nuance, niceness, or introspection. This is also fine; plenty of people make media careers peddling what the market wants, not trying to reveal injustices, speak radical truths, or change the world. Where some of the IDW crowd can become insufferable is doing the former while insisting it's doing the latter.
:teehee



Momo

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« Reply #1156 on: May 18, 2018, 02:22:09 AM »
Worth reading y/n?

benjipwns

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« Reply #1157 on: May 18, 2018, 03:04:03 AM »
i doubt it, i quoted most of the broadly relevant parts probably (and weirdly responsive to some of the points made in the Rubin video you posted)

not even the comments

okay, maybe some comments

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loveconstitution1789|5.14.18 @ 4:04PM|#
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EscherEnigma|5.14.18 @ 3:05PM|#
And Republican voters, despite being in control of the majority of state houses, both branches of the legislature and the presidency, continue to claim that they're being oppressed.
Some folks have a persecution complex that borders on paranoia.

To be fair, the left would absolutely put every last Libertarian and Republican in a concentration camp if they could.

For some reason, Republicans are not advocating the same thing for lefties.

That might be where the defensiveness comes from.
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Just Say'n|5.14.18 @ 3:08PM|#

It's amazing how fast ostensibly libertarian commentators have become the biggest defenders of political correctness.
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Just Say'n|5.14.18 @ 3:15PM|#

"No one is attacking these people, now allow me to smear them with spurious accusations."

- ENB
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Microaggressor|5.14.18 @ 4:28PM|#

I noticed the frequent jabs at Peterson in this piece are all out of context. He likes to ask questions, testing hypothetical boundaries, without necessarily taking that position. ENB interprets him as taking that position, e.g. makeup in the workplace, and writes as if that were a fact. Is this what you'd call a smear?

It's a tried-and-true tactic of the Blue Church gatekeepers to quote their detractors out of context to make it seem like they said something more sinister than they really did. The purpose is to keep the proles away, making it seem like their views can be safely discarded, because you know all you need to know. Take it as a sign that Reason is becoming indistinguishable from the MSM.
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buybuydandavis|5.14.18 @ 4:37PM|#
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It would be nice if they ever actually quoted someone when trying to "explain" them to the public

You notice the only time the author bothers to link to any source-material, its only for the purpose of citing the most-shock-value, taken-out-of-context quotes?
When your goal is to silence WrongThink, you're naturally reticent to repeat the WrongThink.

But likely silencing WrongThink isn't really the goal, it's simply domination, the thrill of trampling on an enemy.

When they aren't physically there to be trampled upon, one has to make due with vilification.
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GILMORE™|5.14.18 @ 3:58PM|#

""Seems like a pretty similar niche to where Reason lives."

It makes more sense when you start to think of Reason.com as controlled opposition, whose purpose is mainly to defang and water-down libertarian criticisms rather than promote them.
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Rigelsen|5.14.18 @ 4:25PM|#

Yes, ENB seems to believe it is perfectly fine to have anyone with heterodox opinions in any of our expanding array of "controversial" topics to be run out of academia, jobs, and major platforms.

This is a dishonest treatment one would expect on The NY Times editorial page, not on Reason.com.
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Just Say'n|5.14.18 @ 4:15PM|#

And this is how conservatives became better defenders of free speech than the ostensibly libertarian
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Rigelsen|5.14.18 @ 4:21PM|#

ELB is anti-heterodoxy. Got it.

Look, they are not complaining about how people are not subscribing their ideas. Their complaint is about being forced out of jobs, "de-monetized" if not kicked off platforms, being literally banned, shouted down or rioted against in college campuses, having hit pieces like this in mainstream media that only seems to quote them out of context.

Yes, they have created their own platforms and found an audience, out of necessity, but ELB's contention seems to be that they should relax and enjoy the crumbs and stop complaining about the vapidity and homogeneity of mainstream intellectual discourse. ELB indeed seems to think that all of this is just fine as it is.

Is ELB actually a libertarian who believes libertarian values should be promoted? Or is "libertarianism" something she just affects for her job? This article suggests the latter.
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The Iconoclast|5.14.18 @ 7:19PM|#

^ this. I think ENB and other of the young reasonoids are endeavoring to thread the needle between writing ostensibly semi-libertarian pieces and creating a corpus that will serve as their career building blocks to eventually get better and more mainstream gigs elsewhere.
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buybuydandavis|5.14.18 @ 11:46PM|#

Progressitarians

The Left infiltrates an org, then exerts relentless in group preference and out group attack to take it over or destroy.

It's good either way. No opposition is left standing.
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JP88|5.14.18 @ 11:15PM|#

This author endorsed punching Ben Shapiro in the face. She promotes political violence. She is not a libertarian.
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RockLibertyWarrior|5.15.18 @ 2:00PM|#

Fucking "Reason" I am about done with this fucking publication that used to be "libertarian" they really aren't anymore, their water carriers for the regressive left. I am sick of this shit, the PC left are dangerous, they want to get rid of free speech and they wouldn't mind lining up libertarians and conservatives in front of a firing squad. Jordan Peterson, Dave Rubin etc. are way braver than any of the fake libertarians that now run "Reason" and their right, the PC left is out for control and blood. I will read "Reason" a little longer to see if they get back on track. I am not holding my breath.
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Hochmeister|5.15.18 @ 2:02PM|#

Good grief Reason What is your beef with this guys? Especially Peterson which you can't seem to give an honest reading of and he is about as libertarian as they come.
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ThomasD|5.16.18 @ 2:38PM|#

ENB is just following the latest directive from her Journolist kommissar.
:rejoice :rejoice DISCOURSE :rejoice :rejoice

Momo

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« Reply #1158 on: May 18, 2018, 03:12:46 AM »

benjipwns

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« Reply #1159 on: May 18, 2018, 09:58:37 AM »
but that he's a neurotic weirdo who doesn't know how to get out that nervous energy other than diving headfirst into a subject so deep that it utterly consumes him
But like, he doesn't even do this. He doesn't even skim wikipedia on his phone half the time.

His entire postmodernism explanation is seemingly based around a shortened summary of a piece of one person's thought (Derrida) who sometimes called himself a Marxist. Sometimes he brings in Foucault but that's only because that's the other famous postmodernist. He ignores that the two didn't agree about much of anything. Let alone worked as some kind of Marxist postmodern cabal. They weren't even the originators of postmodernism or deconstruction. Derrida's deconstruction is even disputed as being deconstruction by postmodernists versus just gibberish.

He's probably not even properly identifying his villains. You get a similar sense as like with this recent state where etoliate decided his true villains needed to be the mass murderers of the 20th century rather than cowardly Mandark or digitally murdered Nola or BEAK STALKER BEAK or other horsefuckers trapped inside the bubble.

benjipwns

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« Reply #1160 on: May 18, 2018, 10:20:49 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html
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Jordan Peterson, Custodian of the Patriarchy
He says there’s a crisis in masculinity. Why won’t women — all these wives and witches — just behave?

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Mr. Peterson’s home is a carefully curated house of horror. He has filled it with a sprawl of art that covers the walls from floor to ceiling. Most of it is communist propaganda from the Soviet Union (execution scenes, soldiers looking noble) — a constant reminder, he says, of atrocities and oppression. He wants to feel their imprisonment, though he lives here on a quiet residential street in Toronto and is quite free.

“Marxism is resurgent,” Mr. Peterson says, looking ashen and stricken.

I say it seems unnecessarily stressful to live like this. He tells me life is stressful.

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Mr. Peterson illustrates his arguments with copious references to ancient myths — bringing up stories of witches, biblical allegories and ancient traditions. I ask why these old stories should guide us today.

“It makes sense that a witch lives in a swamp. Yeah,” he says. “Why?”

It’s a hard one.

“Right. That’s right. You don’t know. It’s because those things hang together at a very deep level. Right. Yeah. And it makes sense that an old king lives in a desiccated tower.”

But witches don’t exist, and they don’t live in swamps, I say.

“Yeah, they do. They do exist. They just don’t exist the way you think they exist. They certainly exist. You may say well dragons don’t exist. It’s, like, yes they do — the category predator and the category dragon are the same category. It absolutely exists. It’s a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists. What exists is not obvious. You say, ‘Well, there’s no such thing as witches.’ Yeah, I know what you mean, but that isn’t what you think when you go see a movie about them. You can’t help but fall into these categories. There’s no escape from them.”

agrajag

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« Reply #1161 on: May 18, 2018, 10:30:01 AM »
This explains so much.

benjipwns

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« Reply #1162 on: May 18, 2018, 10:34:01 AM »
This just doesn't explain the way you think it explains.

agrajag

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« Reply #1163 on: May 18, 2018, 10:35:02 AM »
This just doesn't explain the way you think it explains.

that's because I am a horsefucker

benjipwns

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« Reply #1164 on: May 18, 2018, 10:39:03 AM »
Right. That’s right. It’s because those things hang together at a very deep level. Right. Yeah. And it makes sense that an old king lives in a desiccated tower.

CatsCatsCats

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« Reply #1165 on: May 18, 2018, 10:42:47 AM »
They exist because they do

Great Rumbler

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« Reply #1166 on: May 18, 2018, 10:43:52 AM »
Quote
“Marxism is resurgent,” Mr. Peterson says, looking ashen and stricken.

:lol
dog

agrajag

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« Reply #1167 on: May 18, 2018, 10:49:42 AM »
Benji is a swamp witch.

#draintheswamp

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #1168 on: May 18, 2018, 10:52:44 AM »
Our witches live at the edge of town and they just make herbal medicine.

benjipwns

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« Reply #1169 on: May 18, 2018, 10:57:52 AM »
Benji is a swamp witch.

#draintheswamp

agrajag

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« Reply #1170 on: May 18, 2018, 11:19:49 AM »

Momo

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« Reply #1171 on: May 18, 2018, 11:55:23 AM »
I hate that you guys want to talk about JP so much

HardcoreRetro

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« Reply #1172 on: May 18, 2018, 11:56:20 AM »
A newt!?

agrajag

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Rufus

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« Reply #1174 on: May 18, 2018, 12:09:35 PM »

agrajag

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« Reply #1175 on: May 18, 2018, 12:48:09 PM »
Petereson might be the dumbest smart guy ever.

El Babua

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« Reply #1176 on: May 18, 2018, 01:01:37 PM »
Redistribution of wealth : :holeup

Redistribution of pussy  :aah

agrajag

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« Reply #1177 on: May 18, 2018, 01:04:22 PM »
Redistribution of wealth : :holeup

Redistribution of pussy  :aah

Forced monogamy  :rejoice

Messo vindicated

Coitus

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« Reply #1178 on: May 18, 2018, 01:19:28 PM »
Snark all you want but if you were half as smart as you think you are you'd understand why kobolds live  in old mines.

Brehvolution

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« Reply #1179 on: May 18, 2018, 01:32:19 PM »
Kobolds are easily disposed of with low level weaponry. #NoThreat  :esports
©ZH

Nola

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« Reply #1180 on: May 18, 2018, 01:34:17 PM »
Sorry, he dives so deep in to the IDEA of a subject that it utterly consumes him

He's kind of like the smart guy version of Eddie Bravo, who hears something or watches one clip and becomes an expert and obsessed with something so fucking stupid that he doesn't even understand, which makes you then question how anyone follows him in any meaningful way.

$80,000 a month through Patreon because his audience of resentful white men love this shit probably also helps focus the mind.

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1181 on: May 18, 2018, 02:23:06 PM »
Either way, even if you think he is talking nonsense, it is highly unlikely it is some kind of dog whistling to Nazis. I'm not sure if that is the angle you are coming at it by linking that stuff, but I doubt that is what he is doing. That in itself is kind conspiratorial thinking.

I don't think he's a fascist, but he uses the term to generalise and discredit academia, activist movements and other groups he lumps in with the post-modern neo-marxist gang as ruining society, in a way that parallels with historic use by some pretty distasteful groups. I doubt it's an intentional dog-whistle to the nazi conspiracy theory, but like et spamming pics of people dead and starving at the hands of communism, there's a strong pathos in his argument.

He definitely dislikes the use of intersectionality in framing issues, the problem for him he sees it as increasing tribalism in his eyes instead of resolving it. But it's only a part of his pathos. He mis-characterises intersectional thought and diversity to make a case for individualism. Slightly incongruous with his focus on white privilege making it harder for white people to act successfully as individuals due to unfairly being blamed for minority marginalisation and the (possible, he makes clear to point out) misdeeds of our ancestors, also his penchant for generalization of opposing groups as swathes of sheeple suckling at the post-modern neo-marxist teet.


if yt tag doesnt link properly, starts at 1h37m38s

To paraphrase Peterson here, and this is getting into his conclusion; there are more differences within the defined groups than between them, and the diversity creates more division than inclusivity.

And again, he is so frustrated, and just can't understand why post-modernists have made the canonical distinctions they've made: Gender, Ethnicity, Sexual Proclivity and Gender Identity. These dimensions across which the post-modern neo-marxists have defined people are too narrow. The post-modern need to separate, label and categorise people into these separate groups, this constant search for; and institutionalization, of diversity through initiatives like affirmative action, simply creates more division and tribalism. Individualism is the only answer.

Clearly cheeky pete is making a bit of a joke here, these are the lines down which the most clear discriminations have been made against people as groups regardless of their individual attributes. Surely he at least see's the logic of why those groups were targeted? I've seen etoilet use this whataboutism in the past. Where do you stop taking marginalisation based on difference into account?

"here's some ways people differ! intelligence, temperament (haha, hohoho  :lol), geography, historical time (yes he explains: you live now and not 100 years ago), attractiveness, youth, health, sex (as in having it); women have advantages, men have advantages, maybe one has more than the other - it's not self evident! women live about 8 years longer than men, they're multi-orgasmic (you sly-dog peterson), athleticism, wealth, family-structure, friendship (how many friends you have. sad), and education. WHY NOT THOSE OTHER DIMENSIONS?" Peterson finally asks, exasperated. The other dimensions being the "post-modernist" defined, Gender, Ethnicity, Sexual Proclivity and Gender Identity.

Peterson claims ignorance to why Race is considered a key point of difference. Not just disingenuous, but also mischaracterizes the issue: there is a lot of compassion and assistance provided for the lesser-abled (physically and mentally), the less wealthy and those with poor education. Particularly so in the more social leaning side of social capitalist democracies.

This is over two hours long so I don't have time. Based on your summary though there are certain things I would probably agree with.

Quote
To paraphrase Peterson here, and this is getting into his conclusion; there are more differences within the defined groups than between them, and the diversity creates more division than inclusivity.

This here I think I probably agree with. Maajid Nawaz for instance often speaks about the 'minority within the minority'. This is in the context of the Muslim community. Within the Muslim community there are liberal Muslims, gay Muslims, Muslim feminists, ex-Muslims, Muslim reformers, and so on. The problem with identity politics is,  the minorities within the minority often don't get heard. Yet these are actually the most vulnerable. These are the people who are often oppressed within their own community. Surely these are people the Left should speaking out for the most, but they don't because it is construed as attacking the group as a whole. And so what happens is they end up elevating voices that ironically hold views that are opposite to the values the Left supposedly holds, and demonises the voices they should be supporting. It's nuts.

The video is titled as 'Marxism' yet I actually wish the Left still held similar views that actual more classical Marxists did in the 60s and 70s. These ideas are actually actively pushed back on by the Left now. Marxism was universalist. It didn't concern itself with race, sexuality, or any other identity people organise around. At least not in the same way they do now. Marxism seeked to form solidarity around a shared common humanity. And of course why wouldn't they? If you're looking to form a large group strong enough to overthrow a government, you have to be able to rally people under a common cause. Indentiy politics is counter-productive.

The other thing is, Marxists would never push a victimhood mentality and notions of vulnerability in the way the Left does now. This is exactly what the Left has done by introducing safe spaces, micro-agressions, trigger waarnings and so on. Left-wing students regularly talk about how their entire existence is threatened simply by someone from the opposite end of the political spectrum speaking. That mere words are devastating enough that whole groups of people need to be protected from it or else they will not be able to function. Again, this is the exact opposite of Marxism. Whaat use are people like that? Marxist believed that humans had a shared capacity for self-governance and autonomy. It championed and encouraged the idea that we should be strong, robust, and able to engage in the public sphere. A victim is not able to engage within the public sphere. A victim cannot be an actor, they're people acted upon. What use is that to the cause?

That said, I don't get the hate for Peterson. You people act as if there is nothing to what he says. He's not on to nothing. Sure, you caan be critical of specific views, and disaagree with some of the things he says, but I don't think he is wrong about everything. In fact very rarely is someone right about everything.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 02:37:17 PM by Leadbelly »

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1182 on: May 18, 2018, 02:43:10 PM »
And the Civil Rights Movement. In any case, it is the ideas I mentioned which I think were actually good, rahter than the entirety. You can agree with some things and disagree with others.

agrajag

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« Reply #1183 on: May 18, 2018, 02:43:29 PM »
Can't wait for Etiolate come back and dish us all L's
spoiler (click to show/hide)
in form of child torture porn
[close]

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1184 on: May 18, 2018, 02:59:07 PM »
And the Civil Rights Movement. In any case, it is the ideas I mentioned which I think were actually good, rahter than the entirety. You can agree with some things and disagree with others.
Wait, I need more explanation of this. You wish the left was still driven by "classical marxists" because they were driven by the unifying principle of class, rather than identity politics, and you think this is best demonstrated by the civil rights movement and leftist politics in the 60s and 70s, which is partially but significantly characterized by the blossoming of all kinds of racially identarian political movements and wacko new age communistic, anarchistic, terrorist groups that kidnapped and bombed people?

I actually predicted you would say this. The civil Rights was a form of Identity Politics and obviously a necessary one. Anti-racism was more universalist and colour blind in its approach though back then. As Martin Luther King Jr said, "my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” It is the exact opposite now. In fact comments like, "I don't see race" is often seen as a microagression. In other words Indentity Politics now creates division between peoples when Left-wing politics of the past was about universalism. That we had a shared humanity.

In terms of Martin Luther King, his attention moved from race to class. This was around the time he was assassinated. Some speculate that was why he was assassinated. Organising around class was seen as a much greater danger.

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1185 on: May 18, 2018, 03:09:47 PM »
*looks at list of things I'll never do again, sees "debate what MLK Jr would have thought about modern identity politics"*

I'm gonna have to bow out of this one brother, have fun

Wasn't intending to debate it. :p


Mandark

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« Reply #1186 on: May 18, 2018, 03:13:45 PM »
I actually predicted you would say this. The civil Rights was a form of Identity Politics and obviously a necessary one. Anti-racism was more universalist and colour blind in its approach though back then. As Martin Luther King Jr said, "my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” It is the exact opposite now. In fact comments like, "I don't see race" is often seen as a microagression. In other words Indentity Politics now creates division between peoples when Left-wing politics of the past was about universalism. That we had a shared humanity.

Quote from: Martin Luther King, Letter from a Birmingham Jail
I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Human Snorenado

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« Reply #1187 on: May 18, 2018, 03:17:10 PM »
Wonder what Patreon level etoilet is for Peterson. "The Way Things Used to Be," "Proud Boi," or "Incel"???
yar

Mandark

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« Reply #1188 on: May 18, 2018, 03:29:19 PM »
In terms of Martin Luther King, his attention moved from race to class. This was around the time he was assassinated. Some speculate that was why he was assassinated. Organising around class was seen as a much greater danger.

First of all, it's fucking wild to suggest that organizing for racial equality wasn't seen as dangerous in the 50's and 60's. Tell that to Medgar Evars, or Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner. Civil rights activists were literally trained on how to best survive police brutality.

Second...

Quote from: Martin Luther King, in 1968, the year he was assassinated
Now there is another myth that still gets around: it is a kind of over reliance on the bootstrap philosophy. There are those who still feel that if the Negro is to rise out of poverty, if the Negro is to rise out of the slum conditions, if he is to rise out of discrimination and segregation, he must do it all by himself. And so they say the Negro must lift himself by his own bootstraps.

They never stop to realize that no other ethnic group has been a slave on American soil. The people who say this never stop to realize that the nation made the black man’s color a stigma. But beyond this they never stop to realize the debt that they owe a people who were kept in slavery two hundred and forty-four years.

In 1863 the Negro was told that he was free as a result of the Emancipation Proclamation being signed by Abraham Lincoln. But he was not given any land to make that freedom meaningful. It was something like keeping a person in prison for a number of years and suddenly discovering that that person is not guilty of the crime for which he was convicted. And you just go up to him and say, "Now you are free," but you don’t give him any bus fare to get to town. You don’t give him any money to get some clothes to put on his back or to get on his feet again in life.

Every court of jurisprudence would rise up against this, and yet this is the very thing that our nation did to the black man. It simply said, "You’re free," and it left him there penniless, illiterate, not knowing what to do. And the irony of it all is that at the same time the nation failed to do anything for the black man, though an act of Congress was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and the Midwest. Which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor.

But not only did it give the land, it built land-grant colleges to teach them how to farm. Not only that, it provided county agents to further their expertise in farming; not only that, as the years unfolded it provided low interest rates so that they could mechanize their farms. And to this day thousands of these very persons are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies every years not to farm. And these are so often the very people who tell Negroes that they must lift themselves by their own bootstraps. It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is a cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps.

We must come to see that the roots of racism are very deep in our country, and there must be something positive and massive in order to get rid of all the effects of racism and the tragedies of racial injustice.

I'm going to go ahead and say he wasn't moving in a colorblind direction there. Yes, he was organizing for sanitation workers in Memphis and yes, he saw an alliance of labor and the civil rights movement as important. But that wasn't new (it was the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom where he delivered the "I Have a Dream" speech) and it certainly didn't displace or minimize his organizing for explicit racial justice.

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1189 on: May 18, 2018, 03:40:42 PM »
I actually predicted you would say this. The civil Rights was a form of Identity Politics and obviously a necessary one. Anti-racism was more universalist and colour blind in its approach though back then. As Martin Luther King Jr said, "my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” It is the exact opposite now. In fact comments like, "I don't see race" is often seen as a microagression. In other words Indentity Politics now creates division between peoples when Left-wing politics of the past was about universalism. That we had a shared humanity.

Quote from: Martin Luther King, Letter from a Birmingham Jail
I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

This is kind of pointless. I am assuming you're using this as evidence that King was not a universalist? This is a letter that is probably relevant to the general issues present in that moment. People express different thoughts and emotions depending on the things facing them in that moment.

I can do this too:

Quote
“We have inherited a big house, a great “world house” in which we have to live together – black and white, Easterners and Westerners, Gentiles and Jews, Catholics and Protestants, Moslem and Hindu, a family unduly separated in ideas, culture, and interests who, because we can never again live without each other, must learn, somehow, in this one big world, to live with each other. This means that more and more our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. We must now give an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in our individual societies.”

Anti-racism and Left-wing politics was more universalist in the past. That's the point really being made here.

Mandark

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« Reply #1190 on: May 18, 2018, 04:00:18 PM »
It's clear you know very little about the CRM, but you have no hesitation to make broad assertions about it, with the sole purpose of making current anti-racist politics look worse by comparison.

Maybe take a minute and think about why you're doing that.

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1191 on: May 18, 2018, 04:06:38 PM »
It's clear you know very little about the CRM, but you have no hesitation to make broad assertions about it, with the sole purpose of making current anti-racist politics look worse by comparison.

Maybe take a minute and think about why you're doing that.

Er? What are you talking about? Just out of curiosity, ever heard of the PPC?


Mandark

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« Reply #1192 on: May 18, 2018, 04:12:26 PM »
Er? What are you talking about?

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

You're bringing up MLK only as a rhetorical cudgel against current anti-racist activism. Why?

Mandark

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« Reply #1193 on: May 18, 2018, 04:13:24 PM »
Let's make it simpler.

What's more of a problem right now: anti-black racism, or anti-racist tactics?

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1194 on: May 18, 2018, 04:21:55 PM »
Let's make it simpler.

What's more of a problem right now: anti-black racism, or anti-racist tactics?

I think anti-racist tactics a counter-productive. This isn't a debate I wanted to get it in to quite frankly. I simply believe the approach to social justice in general, not just racism, is wrong and counter-productive. It's not about what is or isn't more of a problem, it is about what is the most effective way to taackle the isuues facing us today.




Mandark

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« Reply #1195 on: May 18, 2018, 04:22:59 PM »
Between the two, which do you think is the greater problem?

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1196 on: May 18, 2018, 04:31:12 PM »
Between the two, which do you think is the greater problem?

What relevance does this have?

My original post was about what I think the good aspects of Marxist thought were. Something that is actually counter to modern Leftist thought. And it was kind of in response to a Peterson video.

It isn't about what is the greater problem. This is a false dichotomy. You have a problem and you have methods in dealing with that problem. It makes no seense to say, racism is a problem therefore you must accept the methods in dealing with said problem are the correct ones.





Mandark

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« Reply #1197 on: May 18, 2018, 04:37:02 PM »
Sorry. My fault. I'll rephrase it.

What's more of a problem right now: anti-black racism, or anti-racist tactics?

Leadbelly

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« Reply #1198 on: May 18, 2018, 04:53:23 PM »
Sorry. My fault. I'll rephrase it.

What's more of a problem right now: anti-black racism, or anti-racist tactics?

That hasn't changed anything. I kind of already addressed the problem with these two options.

If I were to say anti-black racism then what? What's the point?

If I were to say anti-racist tactics? What's the point?

They're not mutually exclusive so whether I choose racism or not, it has no bearing on whether the methods used are counter-productive or not counter-productive. That point holds regardless. Do you understand? I don't get it.

Oblivion

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« Reply #1199 on: May 18, 2018, 04:58:01 PM »
Quote
Mr. Peterson stresses the importance of cleanliness, but honestly his office is a mess.

Of fucking course.