Are yall jealous of me? Is that why you hate me?

[TVC15]

FoC's your typical insular upper middle-class whitebread tool; he's a fuckin' babe in the woods when it comes to the world outside his narrow little margins of experience. It doesn't stop him from holding extreme perspectives unqualified by anything but gut reactions fomented on fear and jingoism, of course, because if there's one thing this country's governance has given us it's the ability to suffer absolutely zero consequences for public ignorance.

If he were intelligent, he'd simply admit he doesn't know shit and instead build experience to qualify his opinions, but instead, we hafta tolerate his assertions that the muslims are mindlessly violent and that there's apparently no angle for a sympathetic view. And he wonders why we don't like him!

You don't know anything about me. Growing up my family hosted many exchanged students from Finland, Chile, Germany, Japan and Korea. I lived in Japan for a year in High School with a host family attending a Japanese High school. I am more culturally literate than you will ever be.


I never said the Muslims are mindless violent people, I only stated that their image is that and they don't do much to change it.

This is truth I must say.

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

[FlameOfCallandor]

What about our image to Muslims, FoC?  We're not doing much to change that.

I fucking hate George Bush and the Iraq war, thats the truth. But we also dont fly planes into their buildings and suicide  bomb their woman and children. And to them that must be a fucking lot.

[TVC15]

What about our image to Muslims, FoC?  We're not doing much to change that.

I fucking hate George Bush and the Iraq war, thats the truth. But we also dont fly planes into their buildings and suicide  bomb their woman and children. And to them that must be a fucking lot.

No, we just invade their countries and help out their enemies, all the while making their rich class richer.  We look as bad to them as they do to us.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

[FlameOfCallandor]

No, we just invade their countries and help out their enemies, all the while making their rich class richer.  We look as bad to them as they do to us.

But as dumb as George Bush is and as stupid as the war is, I reall dont believe America has ill intentions.

[TVC15]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

The point is your image of them is extremely shallow.  You accept how you feel without bothering to even try to understand why things are the way they are.

But as dumb as George Bush is and as stupid as the war is, I reall dont believe America has ill intentions.

And I'm sure the terrorists feel their actions are just as justified as ours.  They're waging war on us for our foreign policy decisions.  We protect the nation that stole their land.  Actually, the west created the country that stole their land.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

The point is your image of them is extremely shallow.  You accept how you feel without bothering to even try to understand why things are the way they are.

Ok, I just read the wikipedia entry and I changed my mind. Human Rights problems, Suicide bombing and plane hijacking are totally justified because of their past. I cant believe I ever thought that it was bad to fly a plane into a building.

[TVC15]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

The point is your image of them is extremely shallow.  You accept how you feel without bothering to even try to understand why things are the way they are.

Ok, I just read the wikipedia entry and I changed my mind. Human Rights problems, Suicide bombing and plane hijacking are totally justified because of their past. I cant believe I ever thought that it was bad to fly a plane into a building.

You're such an idiot.  You can't comprehend that we helped create the barbarians at the gate. Our meddling in their lands precipitated the war they have declared on western culture.

[Tauntaun]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

I hear ya.  My kneejerk response would be what about the Danish Cartoon riots and blah blah blah.  But I could also say, why haven't we as Americans put more pressure on the president, there was this crazy idea once that the president was supposed to REPRESENT the WILL of the PEOPLE!  I do understand where FoC was coming from on that comment, once again it comes down to personal responsibility.  You can only control your own actions in life, that's it. 

You ever hear the paroble of the plank in the eye?  "First remove the spec from your own eye and then you will be able to see clearly to remove the spec from their eye."  I've heard and interesting interpretation on that.  Maybe the spec was never there but it was just a reflection of the plank in our own eye.  Often times when we come to realize the faults in our own lives we see less of the "faults" of the other person, which are often our own problems cast or multiplied on them.  You can't change people, you can't make them something other than that which they are.  Only you can change you.

[brawndolicious]

Ok, I just read the wikipedia entry and I changed my mind. Human Rights problems, Suicide bombing and plane hijacking are totally justified because of their past. I cant believe I ever thought that it was bad to fly a plane into a building.

And those things seem to be supported by the governments...that the west made.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

The point is your image of them is extremely shallow.  You accept how you feel without bothering to even try to understand why things are the way they are.

Ok, I just read the wikipedia entry and I changed my mind. Human Rights problems, Suicide bombing and plane hijacking are totally justified because of their past. I cant believe I ever thought that it was bad to fly a plane into a building.

You're such an idiot.  You can't comprehend that we helped create the barbarians at the gate. Our meddling in their lands precipitated the war they have declared on western culture.

And its our fault that they have text books that talk about killing jews and americans?

[TVC15]

Again, what does image mean?  It doesn't get much more relativistic than "image."   We look as bad to them as they do to us.

What the fuck are talking about? Isn't this what this whole fucking argument is about, My IMAGE of Muslims. Tell me Is there a reason I should think the middle east has its shit together? My image of the middle east and their culture is that it is FUCKED up. Does anyone here actually think its a great place over there? You guys always talk about separation of church and state, but they don't even have an once of that over there. Once again tell me why I should think positively of the Middle East.

The point is your image of them is extremely shallow.  You accept how you feel without bothering to even try to understand why things are the way they are.

Ok, I just read the wikipedia entry and I changed my mind. Human Rights problems, Suicide bombing and plane hijacking are totally justified because of their past. I cant believe I ever thought that it was bad to fly a plane into a building.

You're such an idiot.  You can't comprehend that we helped create the barbarians at the gate. Our meddling in their lands precipitated the war they have declared on western culture.

And its our fault that they have text books that talk about killing jews and americans?

It's the West's fault we kicked some of them out of their homeland and gave it to their enemy.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

[brawndolicious]

And its our fault that they have text books that talk about killing jews and americans?

I've only heard of that in Saudi Arabia (due to the rise of british-invented wahabism) and that's hate only for Shi'ites.

[TVC15]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

For the record I do believe the creation of Israel was unjust, but it's more than a half century later, and dissolving the state now would be unfair to the several generations that have been born there in that time frame. 

[CajoleJuice]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

Nukes that have our name on them. 

[FlameOfCallandor]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

I wish i could cite it. It was in 2001.

[FlameOfCallandor]

So given the history do you think that their actions across the world are justified? Indonesia has a huge Muslim population yet last time i checked isreal didnt take any of their land, yet they riot and bomb just like countries in the middle east.

[Van Cruncheon]

What about our image to Muslims, FoC?  We're not doing much to change that.

I fucking hate George Bush and the Iraq war, thats the truth. But we also dont fly planes into their buildings and suicide  bomb their woman and children. And to them that must be a fucking lot.

No, we just invade their countries and kill their women and children; and prop up their enemies, who shoot and shell them and kill their women and children. What other effective weapons do they have to wage war against their perceived enemies except "terrorist" tactics? Maybe if we gave them F-16s and long-range artillery, they'd be more civilized about it -- like the Israelis!

[Van Cruncheon]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

I wish i could cite it. It was in 2001.

How about all the violent internecine Christian disputes in Eastern Europe and the Slavic countries? Pverty and starvation tend to encourage violence, not the specifics of faith. As a well-fed, well-secured middle-class American, you're speaking from a position of utter ignorance.

[brawndolicious]

The problem is that all the palitinians have to go to Israel to get jobs and get held at checkpoints for hours (I saw this in a documentary by a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation filmmaker condemning Israel called "The Other people who believe in the development and protection of a Jewish nation") and this is done only to harass them.

This is the type of thing that would make any muslim in the world mad.

[TVC15]

2001, a good year for misinformation and sensationalism about our new "enemy."  I'm sure that pop news gave a thoroughly fair and non-biased detail of the sitch.

So given the history do you think that their actions across the world are justified? Indonesia has a huge Muslim population yet last time i checked isreal didnt take any of their land, yet they riot and bomb just like countries in the middle east.

I never think violence is justified.  I'm just saying they are not savages that are bloodthirsty to slaughter the world.  Muslims in the middle east have valid reasons for hating the West, and violence is a consequence of them.

I don't know the situation with Indonesia, but I think other muslims might feel for the plight of other members of their religion.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

I wish i could cite it. It was in 2001.

How about all the violent internecine Christian disputes in Eastern Europe and the Slavic countries? Poverty and starvation tend to encourage violence, not the specifics of faith.

I need to clear something I up, I have no problems with the Muslim religion or people that Practice it. I have problems with the culture in the part of the world known as the middle east, who coincidentally happen to practice Islam

[TVC15]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

I wish i could cite it. It was in 2001.

How about all the violent internecine Christian disputes in Eastern Europe and the Slavic countries? Poverty and starvation tend to encourage violence, not the specifics of faith.

I need to clear something I up, I have no problems with the Muslim religion or people that Practice it. I have problems with the culture in the part of the world known as the middle east, who coincidentally happen to practice Islam

Cool.  They feel the way they do about the West because of the West's own actions.  Just wanted to clear that up.

[Van Cruncheon]

well, along with the fact that the land is a fuckin' desert and harsh climes typically produce harsh lifestyles.

[brawndolicious]

So the last 80 years of making their governments and boundaries and hate for each other isn't the west's fault at all?

[FlameOfCallandor]

Should we get rid of Isreal?

I once read an article in Newsweek that said Muslims in Isreal have more rights that Muslims in Arabian countries.

That's quite the citation there.

I don't know what we should do.  We created an awful situation and cleaning it up will be difficult no matter what.  Maybe even impossible.  The dissolution of Israel would be disastrous.  You can't just tell a country they can't exist any more.  Especially when they have nukes.

I wish i could cite it. It was in 2001.

How about all the violent internecine Christian disputes in Eastern Europe and the Slavic countries? Poverty and starvation tend to encourage violence, not the specifics of faith.

I need to clear something I up, I have no problems with the Muslim religion or people that Practice it. I have problems with the culture in the part of the world known as the middle east, who coincidentally happen to practice Islam

Cool.  They feel the way they do about the West because of the West's own actions.  Just wanted to clear that up.

Except we dont strap bombs on ourselves and kill woman and children.

[Van Cruncheon]

I said along with, Mullah Mushroom.

[Van Cruncheon]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell. YOU sit in a ghetto for twenty-plus years of your life and try to keep a smirking, optimistic face while your opportunities are crushed and shells rain on your family. You might just wanna try to secure a perceived future for your family by taking an extremist stance, too!

[FlameOfCallandor]

well, along with the fact that the land is a fuckin' desert and harsh climes typically produce harsh lifestyles.

[reggie Picture]

"Not my Problem"

[FlameOfCallandor]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell.

Oh they have an exscuse to kill woman and children that makes it better. It all makes sense now.

[brawndolicious]

I said along with, Mullah Mushroom.

I was talking to F-head.

[TVC15]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell.

Oh they have an exscuse to kill woman and children that makes it better. It all makes sense now.

Take a look at how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in our most recent Middle Eastern adventure.  IIRC, it's well over 50,000 at the moment.  15x as many innocents as killed in the WTC attack.

And as has been said:  If they had F16s, I'm sure they'd be using them.

[Van Cruncheon]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell.

Oh they have an exscuse to kill woman and children that makes it better. It all makes sense now.

Of course they don't, but you also have no real grounds to judge them outside of the hubris that comes from being a privileged, culturally illiterate, inexperienced milkfat Western toolbox. And you wonder why the Muslims don't like us -- arrogance just doesn't make the grade as a diplomatic skill these days! Hell, and you wonder why folks in THIS COUNTRY don't like YOU!

BTW, what's OUR excuse for killing their women and children, or enabling Israel to kill their women and children? Hell, what's YOUR excuse for defending a country that kills women and children?

[demi]

WHEN YOU PLAY WITH CALLANDOR YOU PLAY WITH LAME (tm Drinky Crow)

[FlameOfCallandor]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell.

Oh they have an exscuse to kill woman and children that makes it better. It all makes sense now.

Take a look at how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in our most recent Middle Eastern adventure.  IIRC, it's well over 50,000 at the moment.  15x as many innocents as killed in the WTC attack.

And as has been said:  If they had F16s, I'm sure they'd be using them.

I dont think americans are killing 90,000 civilians over there. Its other muslims coming in to Iraq.

[TVC15]

Flame, we sure as fuck would if we didn't have a high-powered national military to do it for us, and if we were starving, abused, and poor as hell.

Oh they have an exscuse to kill woman and children that makes it better. It all makes sense now.

Take a look at how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in our most recent Middle Eastern adventure.  IIRC, it's well over 50,000 at the moment.  15x as many innocents as killed in the WTC attack.

And as has been said:  If they had F16s, I'm sure they'd be using them.

I dont think americans are killing 90,000 civilians over there. Its other muslims coming in to Iraq.

That's awesome.  I'm sure you can back that up.  Even if just a fraction of 50k were killed by US troops, we still made 9/11 look like a total flesh wound.  Not that we're, you know, even in a country that had anything to do with the terror attacks.

[Van Cruncheon]

ALL of the deaths are due to OUR MILITARY INTERVENTION, and do you really think our air and artillery strikes haven't killed a significant percentage of that 50-60K?

[Howard Alan Treesong]

well, along with the fact that the land is a fuckin' desert and harsh climes typically produce harsh lifestyles.

Did you ever see the issue of Rising Stars where J. Michael Stracynski solved the middle east crisis in 24 pages? He was totally serious about it, too. The superheroes used their super powers to make the land arable and everyone stopped fighting and Muslims and Jews loved each other as brothers and J. Michael Stracynski was so much smarter than you!