Why all the RotJ hate?

[Bloodwake]

Okay, question.

Why all the RotJ hate? I mean, it's not as good as Empire or ANH, but still, it was a decent film.

I'm probably not connecting the dots here, but I thought the only Star Wars movies I liked that were universally hated were the prequels. Is it because it's FoC's favorite?

I dunno, someone shed some light on this one for me.

[Phoenix Dark]

Look hard enough and you'll find a small group of idiots who hate everything and attempt to revise history. All three of the original Star Wars movies were met with universal acclaim from moviegoers and critics. It's the same with LOTR.

[Cheebs]

ROTJ had a lot of hate among fans, even back then. The ewoks were hated just as much as Jar Jar.

[Phoenix Dark]

Diehard fans yea, but not many people hailed it as the worse thing ever. Don't get me wrong: I know lots of people said it was the worst of the 3, but that doesn't mean they thought it sucked. The Luke/Vader/Palpatine battle single handidly makes the movie good.

ANH: 9.5
ESB: 10
ROTJ: 9.25

For comparison:

FOTR: 10
TTT: 9.5
ROTK: 10

But I'm not stupid enough to say LOTR is more influencial than Star Wars, which was majestic for its time

[Cheebs]

Diehard fans yea

Yeah I was talking about them. But if we go with the general public then the prequels were great. Sad as it may be, the average movie goer liked the prequels and they all had very, very, strong legs at the box office.

[Phoenix Dark]

My dad liked them to varying degrees lol

My mom thought the third was too violent, which is hilarious considering she likes to watch ALIENS while making dinner

[Cheebs]

My dad liked them to varying degrees lol

My mom thought the third was too violent, which is hilarious considering she likes to watch ALIENS while making dinner

Your dad is the average movier goer.  Remember the hate X-Men 3 got? HUUUUGE hit. Movie goers don't seem to care that the prequels are corny and have bad acting. Give them a "awesome" lightsaber fight and they'll be happy.

[TVC15]

RotJ could've been incredible, what with the set up ESB gave it.  Instead of having an awesome closer, we were left with a merely good one.  If you stripped out all the Endor shit from RotJ, it would've been a pretty major improvement.  Most of that is filler garbage anyway, serving only to lengthen the movie.

The beginning of the movie is so tight.  The whole Jabba and Sarlac Pit part is incredible.  The ending showdown is great (though not perfect). The Dagobah sequence and the following Obi explains everything bits are straight up poor exposition.  They tell you everything.  Making these be "force visions" or flashbacks or something would've made them more interesting.  As it stands, talking directly to the audience, telling them things they already know (in more detail) is not good story-telling.

Everything that happens on Endor is bad.  B-A-D.  Well, except the speeder bikes.  Jesus fuck, teddy bears taking out legions of storm troopers?  BULLSHIT.

While the whole final showdown is good, the character of the Emperor isn't very well developed through the series, so when Big Bad status is shifted from Vader to him, it seems that something is lost.

The Super Star Destroyer assault sequence is, of course, awesome.

[The Fake Shemp]

ESB > ROTJ > ANH

I said it.  A New Hope has not aged well, at all.  Save for the Death Star trench run sequence, the movie is largely a piece of crap.

[Cheebs]

ROTS and ROTJ had the same problem. ENDLESS exposition that needed to be wrapped up which caused major problems with the pacing. The worst example is in ROTS.

The whole some jedi becoming ghosts and the mystery behind it was a major running theme in all of the films but the explanation was a mere throwaway line by Yoda pretty much saying "qui-gon is back he'll fill in the details in the time between the films. kthx"


Willco: the first half is rather slow moving and meh but my god the whole adventure on board the death star with recusing leia is PERFECT. PERFECT. One of the best acts in films, period.

[The Fake Shemp]

ROTJ is pretty good.  I don't mind the Ewoks, but I do mind the carefree attitude Han and Leia have.  It's supposedly the end of the world-type fight.  It's do or die time.  And they're acting like they're having fun adventures with loveable teddy bear scamps!

The original theatrical cut is like a 8.0 movie from me, but Lucas' edits have made it a 6.5-type movie.  That musical number he's put in the beginning brings the film to a screeching halt.

Willco: the first half is rather slow moving and meh but my god the whole adventure on board the death star with recusing leia is PERFECT. PERFECT. One of the best acts in films, period.

No, not really.  It sucks.  The action sucks.  The only thing that salvages that sequence you mentioned is Harrison Ford's delivery.  Even the epic duel between Obi-Wan and Vader looks like an old dude with C.P. fighting a flailing mannequin with sticks.

The trench run is awesome, the rest of the movie is a piece of crap that is only held up due to the power of nostalgia.

[TVC15]

ESB > ROTJ > ANH

I said it.  A New Hope has not aged well, at all.  Save for the Death Star trench run sequence, the movie is largely a piece of crap.

I give ANH a pass on certain things - it also has the exposition problem (to a lesser extent).  The story is also not very tight, but the movie has this whole neat sense of being dipped into a world you never knew existed.  It did a great job at establishing this new universe, and since we were kind of in the shoes of inexperienced Luke, it seemed like you were going down the rabbit hole along with the main characters. 

It certainly has less fat on its bones than RotJ, and it doesn't have the extremely lame EWOKS KILLING TRAINED IMPERIAL TROOPS WITH NO PROBLEM.

[Phoenix Dark]

I haven't seen ANH in ages, or on DVD for that matter. There were parts that I remember looking very...aged compared to the two other movies

[The Fake Shemp]

Yeah, the film is just ugly in comparison to ESB and ROTJ, as well.

ANH did establish the universe, which is great, but what you've just concluded is that its sequels are so great that it retroactively makes ANH better.  If ESB and ROTJ were crap, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because ANH is a turd.

[TVC15]

Yeah, the film is just ugly in comparison to ESB and ROTJ, as well.

ANH did establish the universe, which is great, but what you've just concluded is that its sequels are so great that it retroactively makes ANH better.  If ESB and ROTJ were crap, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because ANH is a turd.

ANH isn't near the turd ROTJ was.  EWOKS BEATING IMPERIAL STORMTROOPERS.

[The Fake Shemp]

No, ANH is far, far worse than ROTJ.

The Ewoks didn't single-handedly defeat the stormtroopers, and that's all I'm going to say on that, because I'm not going to be drawn into a nerd debate about the merits of dumb clone troopers versus animals.

ROTJ has a better score, better technical direction, better action sequences and is a much better film.  I can only watch the last 30 minutes of ANH now, the rest is just garbage.

[TVC15]

So basically, you like RotJ because it has better superficial elements than ANH?

[Cheebs]

It's unfair on a technical basis to compare the rest to ANH. ANH was low-budget compared to the rest and was never made to be a summer blockbuster. Lucas said at best Fox was expecting it to do around what the Planet of the Apes sequels did.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yeah, the film is just ugly in comparison to ESB and ROTJ, as well.

ANH did establish the universe, which is great, but what you've just concluded is that its sequels are so great that it retroactively makes ANH better.  If ESB and ROTJ were crap, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because ANH is a turd.

Makes sense. At the same time, ESB is so good that it really makes ANH seem juvenile. While Obi Wan's death was rather dramatic to me as a kid, the father revalation as well as Luke getting his hand cut off blew my mind in ESB. Plus, Solo's freezing. Before that most movies I had seen created a sense of safety around main characters; you knew the hero would always come out victorious at the end. But ESB took that and crashed it, and I was left speechless: holy shit, the bad guys won.

And while the Ewoks in ROTJ weren't great, I find it funny that TVC takes them so seriously. The Ewoks defeat of the empire is heavily metaphorical, or as Himu would say, A THEME

[Robo]

Harrison Ford practically sabotaging his Han Solo role is what kills it for me.  He lost his edge and the character suffers greatly for it.  Solo is the only reason I still occaisonally watch ANH.

[Bloodwake]

I haven't seen ANH in ages, or on DVD for that matter. There were parts that I remember looking very...aged compared to the two other movies

If you thought it looked aged then, watch it on DVD.

It looks even more aged, and they didn't really improve the sound at all. If it wasn't Lucasfilm they wouldn't have given it a THX certification IMO. It sounded like shit in Dolby Digital.

Still, my favorite is still ANH. It's the first one I saw and while the exposition takes forever, some of it is for a reason. The early scenes just with C3PO and R2-D2, (especially R2's) where they got captured by the Jawas still stand out as pretty good to me considering the resources they had. I can still get some of the suspense feeling of "when are they going to jump out and get him" whenever I watch the R2-D2 scene.

Plus, the Cantina, the entire "rescue Leia" part of the film, and the Death Star trench are just done so well that I could never classify the film as a piece of shit.

[The Fake Shemp]

I fail to see how music, direction, editing, acting and such are superficial elements.  And yes, I said acting.  Save for Guiness and Ford's few shining moments, the cast in A New Hope is terrible.  It's easily Mark Hamill at his worst, and he's your main character.  Even Jones' delivery as Vader pales in comparison to his next two performances, and I think David Prowse never gets any recognition for his performance in ROTJ.  The guy is able to emote in a suit with no facial expressions whatsoever.  You really do get the sense he's conflicted, and that's fuckin' tough to pull off without looking silly.

ANH is pretty much garbage.  If it came out today, I am pretty sure people would think it was stupid.

[Phoenix Dark]

I fail to see how music, direction, editing, acting and such are superficial elements.  And yes, I said acting.  Save for Guiness and Ford's few shining moments, the cast in A New Hope is terrible.  It's easily Mark Hamill at his worst, and he's your main character.  Even Jones' delivery as Vader pales in comparison to his next two performances, and I think David Prowse never gets any recognition for his performance in ROTJ.  The guy is able to emote in a suit with no facial expressions whatsoever.  You really do get the sense he's conflicted, and that's fuckin' tough to pull off without looking silly.

ANH is pretty much garbage.  If it came out today, I am pretty sure people would think it was stupid.

Oh come on, that's not fair at all

[TVC15]

I fail to see how music, direction, editing, acting and such are superficial elements.  And yes, I said acting.  Save for Guiness and Ford's few shining moments, the cast in A New Hope is terrible.  It's easily Mark Hamill at his worst, and he's your main character.  Even Jones' delivery as Vader pales in comparison to his next two performances, and I think David Prowse never gets any recognition for his performance in ROTJ.  The guy is able to emote in a suit with no facial expressions whatsoever.  You really do get the sense he's conflicted, and that's fuckin' tough to pull off without looking silly.

ANH is pretty much garbage.  If it came out today, I am pretty sure people would think it was stupid.

You are pretending like the acting in the rest of the trilogy isn't garbage.  I stand by my claim:  ANH is great because it captures the Into Wonderland feeling incredibly well, similar to the first Matrix, similar (to an extent) to Fellowship.  So what if it's low budget?  You can't hold that against a great movie.

Also, if the vast majority of effects-driven 70s movies came out today, they would bomb.  Fuck, if most of the greats came out these days, they'd bomb.

[The Fake Shemp]

I'm serious.  One of it's biggest draws, especially in terms of establishing characters and universe was the spectacle it provided.  Everyone who saw it when it first came out, including my parents, the first thing out of their mouths is that, "We had never seen effects or anything like that before!"

If it was released today, as is, people would just think it's stupid.  I think Empire Strikes Back holds up pretty well, and the non-revisionist Return of the Jedi would play well too.

The last thirty or so minutes of the film are pretty great.  The score is fantastic, the action is great, the effects still hold up for the most part and you get a great sense of David vs. Goliath... but in space.

The rest of the film drags on for too long, is poorly acted, poorly directed and ugly.

You are pretending like the acting in the rest of the trilogy isn't garbage.

Empire, for the most part, doesn't have bad acting.  Sure, it has mediocre acting, but not bad.  ROTJ is pretty clean as well, but Ford is definitely phoning it in and so is Fisher for the most part.  A New Hope, by and large, is the worst of the bunch when it comes to performances.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm serious.  One of it's biggest draws, especially in terms of establishing characters and universe was the spectacle it provided.  Everyone who saw it when it first came out, including my parents, the first thing out of their mouths is that, "We had never seen effects or anything like that before!"

If it was released today, as is, people would just think it's stupid.  I think Empire Strikes Back holds up pretty well, and the non-revisionist Return of the Jedi would play well too.

The last thirty or so minutes of the film are pretty great.  The score is fantastic, the action is great, the effects still hold up for the most part and you get a great sense of David vs. Goliath... but in space.

The rest of the film drags on for too long, is poorly acted, poorly directed and ugly.

Horrible, unfair comparison. As Cheebs said ANH was a very barebones production. The studio was not interested in the film, and the actor's were upset with the conditions they shot in. The effects are rather weak as well, although for the time they were great. Your point about releasing it today is horrible Willco. I hate to use similar fallacies but if Clash of the Titans came out today it would bomb too. But that's not relevent in any way to this discussion.

[The Fake Shemp]

I didn't say it would bomb, I said people would think it's stupid.  If you think that correlates into poor box office performance, then whatever.  Clash of the Titans has not aged well either.  Watching spectacle films in context is distinguished mentally-challenged.

There are plenty of other low budget films made before the 80s that hold up.  The fact that it was shot the cheap is not an excuse for horrible acting and shoddy directing.  And editing.  And pacing.  ETC.

[TVC15]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Willco is just splashing around in the Troll Zone.  I'm going to go do something more mentally stimulating, like spanking it with a thumb up my ass.

[The Fake Shemp]

Believe what you want!  I'm going to watch a decent, low-budget film from the 70s.

I'll give you a prime example.  Alien was directed two years later, in 1979, for less than A New Hope.  It looks a ton better, still holds up and is largely considered a classic.

When it was re-released in theatres a few years back, people still liked it.

[Phoenix Dark]

I didn't say it would bomb, I said people would think it's stupid.  If you think that correlates into poor box office performance, then whatever.  Clash of the Titans has not aged well either.  Watching spectacle films in context is distinguished mentally-challenged.

There are plenty of other low budget films made before the 80s that hold up.  The fact that it was shot the cheap is not an excuse for horrible acting and shoddy directing.  And editing.  And pacing.  ETC.

The same could be said of 2001 in many ways.

I'm not a fan of taking films out of their environment and trying to determine how they'd do in a new one. It's like asking whether a Bill Russel could be dominant in the current NBA, or if Shaq would have been stats than Wilt if he had played during the same time. Ugh

[Fragamemnon]

I agree with Whiteman-the movie was already pretty good, but if they had taken out the dumb "let's make something that we can sell as toys to kids" Ewoks and done some decent storytelling and more meaningful Luke/Vader/Obi-Wan interactions. Oh, and that last scene is still total badass and few movies to this day have done a big space battle better than ROTJ did.

[TVC15]

I'll give you a prime example.  Alien was directed two years later, in 1979, for less than A New Hope.  It looks a ton better, still holds up and is largely considered a classic.

Kind of an unfair comparison.  Alien doesn't have near the range of environments Star Wars does.  Weren't all the Tatooine scenes shot on location, too?  Chaching!

And also, are you saying a RERELEASE of Alien was popular?  How popular was the rerelease of ANH, Will?

[The Fake Shemp]

The same could be said of 2001 in many ways.

I don't like that movie, so I don't know what your point is.  If you're trying to insult its special effects, then that is pretty crazy, because I will not argue that they're outstanding.  They look better than a lot of modern day crap.

I'm not a fan of taking films out of their environment and trying to determine how they'd do in a new one. It's like asking whether a Bill Russel could be dominant in the current NBA, or if Shaq would have been stats than Wilt if he had played during the same time. Ugh.

Great films hold up, regardless of their age.  Star Wars in particular, thrives off the nostalgic fanbase it created in the 70s.  If it didn't have that, I don't think we'd have this discussion.  Being cheap and old is not an excuse for being ugly or poorly directed.  Fuck, The Godfather was filmed in the 70s for a fraction of A New Hope and it didn't even having LIGHTING.  That's unheard of.

Jaws was filmed for about the same amount as A New Hope and if you released that today, people would still be afraid to go in the water.  Superior directing will trump age no matter what.

[Himu]

Who the hell says RotJ is worse than ANH?

Also: why are we having this discussion? The star wars dick sucking at this forum is terrible. WHO CARES?

[The Fake Shemp]

And also, are you saying a RERELEASE of Alien was popular?  How popular was the rerelease of ANH, Will?

I was referring more to critics than box office dollars.  It'd be insane to compare its sales to Star Wars.  That'd be like comparing some futuristic gay fantasy movie that is hugely popular (but doesn't exist yet) to a re-release of Harry Potter.

Twenty years from now, Phoenix Dark will watch the re-release of Prisoner of Azkaban 10 times.

[The Fake Shemp]

Maybe 20, I don't know.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'll give you a prime example.  Alien was directed two years later, in 1979, for less than A New Hope.  It looks a ton better, still holds up and is largely considered a classic.

Kind of an unfair comparison.  Alien doesn't have near the range of environments Star Wars does.  Weren't all the Tatooine scenes shot on location?

And also, are you saying a RERELEASE of Alien was popular?  How popular was the rerelease of ANH, Will?

lol there's no point in arguing with him. Alien didn't have much - if any - variety in the environments. It also just featured a guy in an alien suit. Big difference.

I don't like that movie, so I don't know what your point is.  If you're trying to insult its special effects, then that is pretty crazy, because I will not argue that they're outstanding.  They look better than a lot of modern day crap.

I'm saying it had horrible acting, poor writing, poor editing, and terrible pacing - and would do poorly if released for the first time now. But it's a fallacy so it's somewhat irrelevent.

Great films hold up, regardless of their age.  Star Wars in particular, thrives off the nostalgic fanbase it created in the 70s.  If it didn't have that, I don't think we'd have this discussion.  Being cheap and old is not an excuse for being ugly or poorly directed.  Fuck, The Godfather was filmed in the 70s for a fraction of A New Hope and it didn't even having LIGHTING.  That's unheard of.

Now we're comparing Godfather to fucking Star Wars? And you don't see the difference? The Godfather didn't need a big budget Willco. Lucas was forced to make a big budget movie with no budget. Why do you think he's been so vocal about changing the first movie, as well as adding other stuff into the others? He had a vision for the first movie that wasn't feasible with the budget he was given.

The documentary on the create of ANH is very good. Lucas had one ally in FOX's decision studio, while everyone else expected the movie to bomb.

[TVC15]

Hey, PD, did you finger that goth chick's hatchet wound yet?

[Phoenix Dark]

Hey, PD, did you finger that goth chick's hatchet wound yet?

[The Fake Shemp]

I must've missed the part in Alien when they go to another planet.  Or change ships.  A New Hope has Tatooine, ship models and sound stages.

I'm not comparing The Godfather to Star Wars.  I'm saying because you have to film on the cheap, doesn't mean your film needs to be ugly.

Phoenix Dark, The Godfather was woefully underbudget.  Coppola made a masterpiece with nothing.  Lucas might whine about being under budget, but Coppola had NO LIGHTING.  NO LIGHTING.  Even Flame of Callandor's shitty films having lighting.  That's how much of a budget Coppola has.  And guess what?  It doesn't look like ass, despite that it's a huge, sprawling movie with lots of locales.

Also, I'll go one step further and say 2001, which came out 10 years before Star Wars, also looks a ton better than A New Hope.

Jaws looks better too.

[Himu]

Also, I'll go one step further and say 2001, which came out 10 years before Star Wars, also looks a ton better than A New Hope.

Yep.

[Phoenix Dark]

Woohoo one planet, which was not a location shot in the sense of ANH's deserts and such. Outside of that you have lots of corridors and not much else. Come on.

Godfather was made by a great director. While I love Star Wars I can't honestly say Lucas is a masterful director. And fucking Godfather didn't even NEED a big budget. It's a period piece that occurs during what, the 1940's? Star Wars attempts to create an entire different world.

It's the same with Jaws. If Spielberg had showed the shark constantly the movie wouldn't be considered a classic: it would have been cheesy. There is nothing subtle about Star Wars - everything is in the open.

Even Lucas has said he doesn't like the bar scene on Tatooine, for instance.

[The Fake Shemp]

Godfather was made by a great director. While I love Star Wars I can't honestly say Lucas is a masterful director. And fucking Godfather didn't even NEED a big budget. It's a period piece that occurs during what, the 1940's? Star Wars attempts to create an entire different world.

It's the same with Jaws. If Spielberg had showed the shark constantly the movie wouldn't be considered a classic: it would have been cheesy. There is nothing subtle about Star Wars - everything is in the open.

Even Lucas has said he doesn't like the bar scene on Tatooine, for instance.

So because Star Wars is ambitious, it's excused for looking ugly?  Way to ignore 2001, by the way.  Something that came out a decade prior.

Star Wars shot on one desert location and that's it - the rest were sound stages.  You think it's more expensive to shoot models and sound stages than to travel to direct on-site locations than in The Godfather?  Coppola didn't need a big budget, but he didn't even HAVE a budget.  No lighting.  I repeat, NO LIGHTING.

And people applaud its cinematography to this day.

Same with Jaws.  That was even more ambitious, because they shot on the fucking ocean.  That was unheard of.

Shooting on a variety of locations will always cost more than building sound stages, so that's just absolutely ridiculous.  And Alien had just as many, if not more, sound stages than Star Wars.  And it looks fucking good.

[TVC15]

How bout this, Will: Kubrick, Coppola, Spielberg, and Scott are all <shock> better directors than Lucas?  They know how to make movies look good, and probably on the cheap.

[Phoenix Dark]

How bout this, Will: Kubrick, Coppola, Spielberg, and Scott are all <shock> better directors than Lucas?  They know how to make movies look good, and probably on the cheap.

.

Jesus Christ Willco. And with respect to 2001, I would say it looks better than ANH. But it's also shot very differently, and it represents a cleaner, more stylized portrayal of the future when compared to the more gritty portrayal in Star Wars.

[The Fake Shemp]

I agree, TVC 15 (my gawd, I thought you were Cheebs).

The whole point is that A New Hope looks ugly, and viewing effects in context is dumb.  If you can't pull it off, you make compromises, like NOT SHOWING THE SHARK or FILMING THE GUY IN THE ALIEN SUIT IN CERTAIN WAYS.  This way they don't fall apart later.

The actuality is the big effect stuff, like the dogfights and space combat do hold up pretty well save for some glaring mistakes.  It's the easy stuff, like on location Tatooine shooting and sound stage work that looks ugly.  There's no excuse for this, Maurice!  None!

And Kubrick's style being cleaner doesn't make it easier.

[Cheebs]

Willco you reason of nostalgia being the only thing saving this film is mistaken for one reason.

I discovered ANH in the 90's as did MANY people around my age. We had no nostalgia for it yet we all loved it? Kids to this day fall in love with ANH without any 70's nostaliga.

[TVC15]

The actuality is the big effect stuff, like the dogfights and space combat do hold up pretty well save for some glaring mistakes.  It's the easy stuff, like on location Tatooine shooting and sound stage work that looks ugly.  There's no excuse for this, Maurice!  None!

Offhand, I don't think any of the Tatooine stuff looks horrible?  I'm not denying it (I haven't seen the movie recently), but is there any screenshot evidence?

[Phoenix Dark]

I agree, TVC 15 (my gawd, I thought you were Cheebs).

The whole point is that A New Hope looks ugly, and viewing effects in context is dumb.  If you can't pull it off, you make compromises, like NOT SHOWING THE SHARK or FILMING THE GUY IN THE ALIEN SUIT IN CERTAIN WAYS.  This way they don't fall apart later.

The actuality is the big effect stuff, like the dogfights and space combat do hold up pretty well save for some glaring mistakes.  It's the easy stuff, like on location Tatooine shooting and sound stage work that looks ugly.  There's no excuse for this, Maurice!  None!

And Kubrick's style being cleaner doesn't make it easier.

The problem is that Jaws and Alien relied on a different form of entertainment: subtlety. This created drama and suspense. Star Wars wouldn't be Star Wars without the in-your-face effects and events. Jaws and Alien are not traditional scary movies in the sense that the "monster" is always out in the open. It's just a different approach. I wouldn't say that makes it better because we're talking about apples and oranges.

[The Fake Shemp]

TVC... Just watch the movie.  It's ugly.

PD... Not really.  Jaws was written and directed around the fact that the knew they couldn't make a real shark that size be believable, so they wanted to maximize its presence and minimalize the effects.  Alien to a lesser extent, because it was meant to stalk, but Ridley shot it in certain ways to keep it hidden in context of the script AND special effects.

Star Wars doesn't get a pass because it's ambitious, especially when it's primarily the on location and sound stage stuff that looks like crap.

Going for broke is nice, but if the effects are shaky then, then they're going to age badly.  Regardless of anyone's opinion on Spider-Man is, I think we all know that people will probably laugh at the effects 10 years from now.

I will go ahead and Drinky's and/or TVC's comment out of the way with, "lulz but we already laff at it now".

[FlameOfCallandor]

[TVC15]

TVC... Just watch the movie.  It's ugly.

PD... Not really.  Jaws was written and directed around the fact that the knew they couldn't make a real shark that size be believable, so they wanted to maximize its presence and minimalize the effects.  Alien to a lesser extent, because it was meant to stalk, but Ridley shot it in certain ways to keep it hidden in context of the script AND special effects.

Star Wars doesn't get a pass because it's ambitious, especially when it's primarily the on location and sound stage stuff that looks like crap.

Going for broke is nice, but if the effects are shaky then, then they're going to age badly.  Regardless of anyone's opinion on Spider-Man is, I think we all know that people will probably laugh at the effects 10 years from now.

I will go ahead and Drinky's and/or TVC's comment out of the way with, "lulz but we already laff at it now".

Well, Willco, this is why I called all those things "superficial" before:  Even though it's got a rough surface, even though it's ugly, even though the direction and the acting suck, even though there are editing errors, it is still a solid movie.  In spite of its flaws, it's still better than RotJ.  RotJ gets all those superficial elements right, but it's still not that great in the end.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I can't believe some of you people are arguing for ROTJ.

[The Fake Shemp]

So, the directing, cinematography, acting, editing, music and even visual effects are all inferior to ROTJ, but ANH is somehow a superior film?

In your version of Film 101, is screenwriting the only thing that's not superficial?  I think there would be a lot of film grads that would argue against that.  Maybe all.

I can't believe some of you people are arguing for ROTJ.

Only in context of the crappy ANH.  ROTJ as it stands now is pretty much unwatchable.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Film is a combination of so many arts. Writing is only one of them.

[The Fake Shemp]

If you try to help me, it'll only make TVC's argument stronger!

[FlameOfCallandor]

Sorry mister big time writer.

[Cheebs]

The score is MUCH better in ANH, Willco. ROTJ has very few new "themes" that are as good as ESB and ANH. Remember ANH was the start of it all in music. Nearly every piece of music in the saga found its start in ANH except for a handful. ROTJ had one of the worst scores of all 6 imo. I would rank the music as:

ANH
ESB
TPM
ROTS
ROTJ
AOTC

[Phoenix Dark]

TVC... Just watch the movie.  It's ugly.

PD... Not really.  Jaws was written and directed around the fact that the knew they couldn't make a real shark that size be believable, so they wanted to maximize its presence and minimalize the effects.  Alien to a lesser extent, because it was meant to stalk, but Ridley shot it in certain ways to keep it hidden in context of the script AND special effects.

Star Wars doesn't get a pass because it's ambitious, especially when it's primarily the on location and sound stage stuff that looks like crap.

Going for broke is nice, but if the effects are shaky then, then they're going to age badly.  Regardless of anyone's opinion on Spider-Man is, I think we all know that people will probably laugh at the effects 10 years from now.

I will go ahead and Drinky's and/or TVC's comment out of the way with, "lulz but we already laff at it now".

Dude, we agree on that. The movies are shot differently. Alien and Jaws are subtle, while Star Wars is not. Alien features one guy in a monster suit compared to Star Wars, which is filled with guys in suits. How this is comparible to any huge degree is beyond me.

The comparison is extremely weak. 2001 for instance is quite believeable today because it doesn't feature any "aliens". There isn't anything there that cheeses up the production. Star Wars is based on a genre that elicits "cheese" - it's a homage to Flash Gordan for cripe's sake.

Just because it hasn't aged well doesn't mean it's utterly ugly. What's so ugly about Tatooine? The only purely ugly scene in the movie is the bar scene.

[The Fake Shemp]

Sorry mister big time writer.

I will accept your apology.  Now excuse me, I must show the latest copy of my script, BAD TASTE: The Trials and Tribulations of The World's Worst Film School Student, to a Clooney and Soderbergh.  We might get you a cameo, but we're not sure yet.

The score is MUCH better in ANH, Willco.

No way.  The new Emperor themes, combined with the new music composed for the final showdown is more impressive than ANH.  They're both bested by the ESB soundtrack, though.