catholic church dismisses the concept of "limbo"

[xnikki118x]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.

In a long-awaited document, the Church's International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation."

The 41-page document was published on Friday by Origins, the documentary service of the U.S.-based Catholic News Service, which is part of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Pope Benedict, himself a top theologian who before his election in 2005 expressed doubts about limbo, authorized the publication of the document, called "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised."

The verdict that limbo could now rest in peace had been expected for years. The document was seen as most likely the final word since limbo was never part of Church doctrine, even though it was taught to Catholics well into the 20th century.

"The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation," it said.

"There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them)."

The Church teaches that baptism removes original sin which stains all souls since the fall from grace in the Garden of Eden.

"NO NEGATION OF BAPTISM"

The document stressed that its conclusions should not be interpreted as questioning original sin or "used to negate the necessity of baptism or delay the conferral of the sacrament."

Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning "border" or "edge," was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptized dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.

"People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian," the document said.

It said the study was made all the more pressing because "the number of nonbaptised infants has grown considerably, and therefore the reflection on the possibility of salvation for these infants has become urgent."

The commission's conclusions had been widely expected.

In writings before his election as Pope in 2005, the then
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger made it clear he believed the concept of limbo should be abandoned because it was "only a theological hypothesis" and "never a defined truth of faith."

In the Divine Comedy, Dante placed virtuous pagans and great classical philosophers, including Plato and Socrates, in limbo. The Catholic Church's official catechism, issued in 1992 after decades of work, dropped the mention of limbo.

Basically, limbo is where babies go who die before they can be baptized and "cleansed of original sin". It's a heaven-like paradise, but it's not heaven, and they cannot see God.

That idea always bothered the hell out of me, and now they're admitting it's wrong, basically. That makes me happy.

[Madrun Badrun]

I thoguths limbo = purgatory?   

[Candyflip]

  As if it makes that crap any more believable.

[G The Resurrected]

Religion what a joke  you die, we are all gonna die one day. our energy is gone once we die.

[Madrun Badrun]

Religion what a joke  you die, we are all gonna die one day. our energy is gone once we die.

not mine; I'm going to store it in a jar. 

[Van Cruncheon]

god: jesus, what's that fuckin' stench
jesus: dad, it's limbo
god: limbo? what the fuck's that? i didn't give those fuckin' prophets any instructions about a limbo
jesus: er, well
god: out with it
jesus: it's sort of our abortion dumpster
god: jesus, that's disgusting
jesus: well, it's a, er, catholic thing
god: tell those fucking gentiles to stop believing in it
jesus: will do! but it ain't gonna make those ghost fetuses go away
god: try me.

[Madrun Badrun]

 

in paradise lost jeuse and god always reminded me of the sharif and his on from smokey and the badndit. 

[G The Resurrected]

the bible should be put in the fiction catagory at the book store.

[xnikki118x]

I thoguths limbo = purgatory?   

Purgatory is basically hell without the permament stay. You're supposed to "burn" and torture or whatever in purgatory, to pay for your sins, but the difference is that once you're in purgatory long enough that all your sins are gone, you go to heaven. Hell is a one-way ticket forever.

Purgatory is a baby step above hell, and limbo is a baby step below heaven. Very different.

But now they've decided (finally) that limbo doesn't exist so yay!



I don't identify myself with any particular religion, but I was raised Catholic and I do consider myself a Christian of sorts. Something like that, anyway.

[Madrun Badrun]

sounds hot. 

[xnikki118x]

the bible should be put in the fiction catagory at the book store.

I did that once and thought it was oh-so-cool and funny. But then I started working in retail and realized that hey, some poor sap who gets paid 6 bucks an hour has to move all those damn books back to where they belong. I felt bad then.

I do agree though, that the bible is a supreme work of fiction to an extent.

god: jesus, what's that fuckin' stench
jesus: dad, it's limbo
god: limbo? what the fuck's that? i didn't give those fuckin' prophets any instructions about a limbo
jesus: er, well
god: out with it
jesus: it's sort of our abortion dumpster
god: jesus, that's disgusting
jesus: well, it's a, er, catholic thing
god: tell those fucking gentiles to stop believing in it
jesus: will do! but it ain't gonna make those ghost fetuses go away
god: try me.

Drinky +2982922 funny points.

[G The Resurrected]

Yeah i think its great fiction. And looks what its caused. Wars, murder, and all kinds of shit. Religion is the problem in the world if you ask me.

[Van Cruncheon]

the bible has some very strong things to say about those who practice to deceive

[xnikki118x]

Yeah i think its great fiction. And looks what its caused. Wars, murder, and all kinds of shit. Religion is the problem in the world if you ask me.

More blood has been shed and lives lost in the name of Christianity than anything else ever. Something to think about.

Funny: the mascot of the high school James and I went to is a crusader.

[Phoenix Dark]

the bible has some very strong things to say about those who practice to deceive

Limbo is never mentioned in the Bible. I know where Catholics get the idea from, but they take a lot of liberty. It's the same with the concept of a pope. They take Peter and stretch things into something entirely different..

[TVC15]

The term Limbo is neither mentioned in the bible, nor is the concept ever mentioned.  It was something that somebody made up.

[Madrun Badrun]

The term Limbo is neither mentioned in the bible, nor is the concept ever mentioned.  It was something that somebody made up.

rub my nipples with your knolage.   

[TVC15]

The term Limbo is neither mentioned in the bible, nor is the concept ever mentioned.  It was something that somebody made up.

rub my nipples with your knolage.  

Let me slurp the man-slurry out of your cock.

[Madrun Badrun]

now were talking; this is how a thread on catholicism should be. 

[Phoenix Dark]

Exactly. The one place that even suggests such an idea occurs after Jesus' crucifiction where he enters "hell". This is course is referring to "Abraham's Bosom", a place where Jesus met some of the various patriarchs of the Bible. Those people were never in "hell", nor does the Bible say anyone was there except the patriachs. Which of course makes the idea that regular people today can magically go there quite unbiblical.

Another problem with limbo is the idea of being able to essentially pray someone out of that existance and into heaven, which is not Biblical. As a pastor once said, the problem with Catholicism is that it places far too much heavenly power in the hands of mortal humans - whether it's Mary, the pope, "Saints", or whoever

[Madrun Badrun]

jesus went to ehll?    ?

[TVC15]

IIRC, Limbo has never been doctrine, ever.  It's just a little folksy thing on the side, similar to Kabbalah and the like.  Christian folklore.

I guess they just wanted to put an official stamp on it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yeah. After his crucifiction he entered hell for a small period of time. Although much of the time he spent "under ground" so to speak wasn't in hell, but in the bosom area I mentioned earlier, where the various patriarchs of the Bible were. He freed them.

While in prison apparently he preached to the spirits, and I'm sure Satan was pissed as fuck because his master plan backfired

[Phoenix Dark]

So in conclusion "limbo" is considered a place where people go if they haven't gone to heaven or hell. In terms of current applications this simply isn't true. But there are people - patriarchs - who neither went to heaven or hell. Moses for instance is not in "heaven". Jesus didn't teach a heavenly message - he taught that the Kingdom was at hand. The Kingdom of Heaven was to be made on earth, not in heaven.

In short, the Kingdom was promised to the Jews, not the Gentiles - who go to heaven. In the morning I may look at this post and have to revise it lol, but I'm pretty sure I said it right *my eyes are redddd*

[etiolate]

Where will all the TBS threads go now?

[Ichirou]

Exactly. The one place that even suggests such an idea occurs after Jesus' crucifiction where he enters "hell". This is course is referring to "Abraham's Bosom", a place where Jesus met some of the various patriarchs of the Bible. Those people were never in "hell", nor does the Bible say anyone was there except the patriachs. Which of course makes the idea that regular people today can magically go there quite unbiblical.

Another problem with limbo is the idea of being able to essentially pray someone out of that existance and into heaven, which is not Biblical. As a pastor once said, the problem with Catholicism is that it places far too much heavenly power in the hands of mortal humans - whether it's Mary, the pope, "Saints", or whoever

Please shut the fuck up.

[Cheebs]

I am roman catholic but stuff like this make me lol most of the teachings do to be honest, I still much rather be a catholic than a evangelical protestant. Evangelicals scare the hell out of me.

[Ichirou]

or a home-schooled creationist psychopath like Phoenix Dark.

[Cheebs]

creationism has no rational reason for existince it is based purely and only on a single verse within genesis yet somehow it remains contrary to all evidence since.

If one believes that verse(PD?) they also MUST believe that all animals and humans were created within the same week

Therefore humans, modern day humans with full intelligence existed alongside dinosaurs. How does one explain the MASSIVE extinction of that species yet not one single human fossil alongside this massive extinction.  If your answer is the flood then why are there no human fossils alongside it? Why no animals that currently exist today? Only two of each animal was brought on board, there should be plenty of modern day humans, monkeys, dolphins, sheep, etc... alongside the t-rex but that isn't the case!

I never have gotten any proper explanation to these type of issues.

Have creationists ever given a logical explanation for the fossils other than "God placed them there to tempt us"?

[MrAngryFace]

Im playing Titan Quest on PC and LIMBO IS VERY REAL

[Phoenix Dark]

Exactly. The one place that even suggests such an idea occurs after Jesus' crucifiction where he enters "hell". This is course is referring to "Abraham's Bosom", a place where Jesus met some of the various patriarchs of the Bible. Those people were never in "hell", nor does the Bible say anyone was there except the patriachs. Which of course makes the idea that regular people today can magically go there quite unbiblical.

Another problem with limbo is the idea of being able to essentially pray someone out of that existance and into heaven, which is not Biblical. As a pastor once said, the problem with Catholicism is that it places far too much heavenly power in the hands of mortal humans - whether it's Mary, the pope, "Saints", or whoever

Please shut the fuck up.

You disagree? Please show me where I'm wrong

[MrAngryFace]

I think the real problem is organized religions.

[Phoenix Dark]

I won't argue that. While to generalize and say all organized religion simply isn't true, it's defitinitely true when denominations lose sight of their particular religion and start money grindin on po folks like my grandmas

[MrAngryFace]

Its impossible for flawed beings to create a system or organization that accurately represents a "perfect" being.

[Phoenix Dark]

Religious organizations are not supposed to represent a perfect being in the first place. Or at least not in Christianity. The church doesn't house the spirit of god - the body does

[MrAngryFace]

Then why have organized religion? Ultimately organized religion has dont more harm than good. If its not the cause of most wars, it teaches people to depend on a system rather than themselves.

If the church doesn't HOUSE God even if its GODS HOUSE and if the teachings they preach don't actually accurately represent GODS wisdom; Why have a middle man bogged down by evil?

[Phoenix Dark]

Then why have organized religion? Ultimately organized religion has dont more harm than good. If its not the cause of most wars, it teaches people to depend on a system rather than themselves.

If the church doesn't HOUSE God even if its GODS HOUSE and if the teachings they preach don't actually accurately represent GODS wisdom; Why have a middle man bogged down by evil?

Well the Bible lays out a foundation for what a church is supposed to look like. It gives the basis for pastors, deacons, etc. A church that is composed of people who understand that usually works fine. I've been to many churches that we disagree with in terms of doctrine, but they're good churches. They aren't scamming the congregation, they actually read the Bible, etc.

You're right, man's interpetation of religion has done much harm. Man is not perfect, and it's not surprising that many would take something that is perfect and warp it into something to suit their purposes - whether it's "kill the brown folk" or buy me a Mercedez

[Cheebs]

creationism has no rational reason for existince it is based purely and only on a single verse within genesis yet somehow it remains contrary to all evidence since.

If one believes that verse(PD?) they also MUST believe that all animals and humans were created within the same week

Therefore humans, modern day humans with full intelligence existed alongside dinosaurs. How does one explain the MASSIVE extinction of that species yet not one single human fossil alongside this massive extinction.  If your answer is the flood then why are there no human fossils alongside it? Why no animals that currently exist today? Only two of each animal was brought on board, there should be plenty of modern day humans, monkeys, dolphins, sheep, etc... alongside the t-rex but that isn't the case!

I never have gotten any proper explanation to these type of issues.

Have creationists ever given a logical explanation for the fossils other than "God placed them there to tempt us"?

PD reply to this!

[Phoenix Dark]

creationism has no rational reason for existince it is based purely and only on a single verse within genesis yet somehow it remains contrary to all evidence since.

If one believes that verse(PD?) they also MUST believe that all animals and humans were created within the same week

Therefore humans, modern day humans with full intelligence existed alongside dinosaurs. How does one explain the MASSIVE extinction of that species yet not one single human fossil alongside this massive extinction.  If your answer is the flood then why are there no human fossils alongside it? Why no animals that currently exist today? Only two of each animal was brought on board, there should be plenty of modern day humans, monkeys, dolphins, sheep, etc... alongside the t-rex but that isn't the case!

I never have gotten any proper explanation to these type of issues.

Have creationists ever given a logical explanation for the fossils other than "God placed them there to tempt us"?

PD reply to this!

I've never stated that evolution as a whole is false. You can't deny certain aspects such as adaption (bug spray resistance for instance). And how can you lecture me on fossils when so little (if any) transitional forms? There should be millions, if not more - yet to date we've seen a few possible ones and fabrications. Why did insects magically appear for instance - where are their ancestors in the fossil record?

Which Genesis verse are you talking about?

[Cheebs]

creationism has no rational reason for existince it is based purely and only on a single verse within genesis yet somehow it remains contrary to all evidence since.

If one believes that verse(PD?) they also MUST believe that all animals and humans were created within the same week

Therefore humans, modern day humans with full intelligence existed alongside dinosaurs. How does one explain the MASSIVE extinction of that species yet not one single human fossil alongside this massive extinction.  If your answer is the flood then why are there no human fossils alongside it? Why no animals that currently exist today? Only two of each animal was brought on board, there should be plenty of modern day humans, monkeys, dolphins, sheep, etc... alongside the t-rex but that isn't the case!

I never have gotten any proper explanation to these type of issues.

Have creationists ever given a logical explanation for the fossils other than "God placed them there to tempt us"?

PD reply to this!

I've never stated that evolution as a whole is false. You can't deny certain aspects such as adaption (bug spray resistance for instance). And how can you lecture me on fossils when so little (if any) transitional forms? There should be millions, if not more - yet to date we've seen a few possible ones and fabrications. Why did insects magically appear for instance - where are their ancestors in the fossil record?

Which Genesis verse are you talking about?

Don't argue with my evolution fossils! I will if you answer mine. I asked a simple question. If everything was made in one week why are there no modern day human fossils alongside dinosaurs nor modern day animals? Explain the total extinction of the a dominate species but nothing else(human wise) if they lived alongside humans.

[Phoenix Dark]

creationism has no rational reason for existince it is based purely and only on a single verse within genesis yet somehow it remains contrary to all evidence since.

If one believes that verse(PD?) they also MUST believe that all animals and humans were created within the same week

Therefore humans, modern day humans with full intelligence existed alongside dinosaurs. How does one explain the MASSIVE extinction of that species yet not one single human fossil alongside this massive extinction.  If your answer is the flood then why are there no human fossils alongside it? Why no animals that currently exist today? Only two of each animal was brought on board, there should be plenty of modern day humans, monkeys, dolphins, sheep, etc... alongside the t-rex but that isn't the case!

I never have gotten any proper explanation to these type of issues.

Have creationists ever given a logical explanation for the fossils other than "God placed them there to tempt us"?

PD reply to this!

I've never stated that evolution as a whole is false. You can't deny certain aspects such as adaption (bug spray resistance for instance). And how can you lecture me on fossils when so little (if any) transitional forms? There should be millions, if not more - yet to date we've seen a few possible ones and fabrications. Why did insects magically appear for instance - where are their ancestors in the fossil record?

Which Genesis verse are you talking about?

Don't argue with my evolution fossils! I will if you answer mine. I asked a simple question. If everything was made in one week why are there no modern day human fossils alongside dinosaurs nor modern day animals? Explain the total extinction of the a dominate species but nothing else(human wise) if they lived alongside humans.

I honestly can't answer that. We could get heavy into Genesis analysis and talk about the alleged world before earth that god destroyed, but even then that doesn't explain why at least 1 dinosaur is mentioned in the Bible (I'm not counting Leviathan because I don't get the impression that he is a dinosaur - it seems more like a singular being, not an extinct race of things).

[Cheebs]

The sheer lack of info on dinosaurs one of my key reasons to doubt the 1 week origin. Based on pure numbers the dino's would be dominating the human species at the time pre-flood. Which even with my catholic belief leaves me to believe the origin story is nothing more than a jewish myth that was passed on. Believing the bible is infallible, even as a christian like myself is just ignorant. Look at the origin of the book choices for the New Testament. It was absurd and choices of what to include and what to deem untrue were made for often petty and stupid reasons.

[Phoenix Dark]

The sheer lack of info on dinosaurs one of my key reasons to doubt the 1 week origin. Based on pure numbers the dino's would be dominating the human species at the time pre-flood. Which even with my catholic belief leaves me to believe the origin story is nothing more than a jewish myth that was passed on. Believing the bible is infallible, even as a christian like myself is just ignorant. Look at the origin of the book choices for the New Testament. It was absurd and choices of what to include and what to deem untrue were made for often petty and stupid reasons.

I've given my answer on that. And how do you explain the lack of transitional beings in the fossil record. Especially for insects - which seem to just show up in the fossil record, and flying species - where are the fossils of them before they grew wings?

[Eduardo24]

Because those insect fossils are so small that nobody can find them..but what do I know

Anyway, when I was catholic, most the of the priests in my church didn´t believe in the genesis.

One of them said to me that the guys that wrote the genesis were so primitive that they would never understand the process of creation in a million years, so God instead, decided to explain the damn thing in symbolic terms.  If you follow the thing you´ll see that Genesis explain creation in more or less the same ORDER as scientists do

[Cheebs]

The sheer lack of info on dinosaurs one of my key reasons to doubt the 1 week origin. Based on pure numbers the dino's would be dominating the human species at the time pre-flood. Which even with my catholic belief leaves me to believe the origin story is nothing more than a jewish myth that was passed on. Believing the bible is infallible, even as a christian like myself is just ignorant. Look at the origin of the book choices for the New Testament. It was absurd and choices of what to include and what to deem untrue were made for often petty and stupid reasons.

I've given my answer on that.

But your answer was "I don't know".  How can you have faith and believe something that you admit has a huge and glaring flaw?

[Phoenix Dark]

The sheer lack of info on dinosaurs one of my key reasons to doubt the 1 week origin. Based on pure numbers the dino's would be dominating the human species at the time pre-flood. Which even with my catholic belief leaves me to believe the origin story is nothing more than a jewish myth that was passed on. Believing the bible is infallible, even as a christian like myself is just ignorant. Look at the origin of the book choices for the New Testament. It was absurd and choices of what to include and what to deem untrue were made for often petty and stupid reasons.

I've given my answer on that.

But your answer was "I don't know".  How can you have faith and believe something that you admit has a huge and glaring flaw?

I can say the same of you dude.

There's not a single verse in the bible that describes man's experience with a dinosaur, or at least I'm pretty sure there isn't. Look at Nimrod - he's described as this badass hunter, and today people try to say he was a "dinosaur hunter" when the Bible never says he fought one.

Unless of course we accept that Leviathan was a dinosaur. Which I don't believe

[Cheebs]

The sheer lack of info on dinosaurs one of my key reasons to doubt the 1 week origin. Based on pure numbers the dino's would be dominating the human species at the time pre-flood. Which even with my catholic belief leaves me to believe the origin story is nothing more than a jewish myth that was passed on. Believing the bible is infallible, even as a christian like myself is just ignorant. Look at the origin of the book choices for the New Testament. It was absurd and choices of what to include and what to deem untrue were made for often petty and stupid reasons.

I've given my answer on that.

But your answer was "I don't know".  How can you have faith and believe something that you admit has a huge and glaring flaw?

I can say the same of you dude.

There's not a single verse in the bible that describes man's experience with a dinosaur, or at least I'm pretty sure there isn't. Look at Nimrod - he's described as this badass hunter, and today people try to say he was a "dinosaur hunter" when the Bible never says he fought one.

Unless of course we accept that Leviathan was a dinosaur. Which I don't believe

if dino's lived a long time before humans, which fossils back up then the week long creation story makes no sense. I am not arguing there is facts for transition fossils. I am not argunig the merits of evolution, but the week long creation story. Which is 100% proven false by the sheer fact that there are fossils that existed far prior to a single human fossil.

I am arguing there are fossils that PROVE certain animals lived long before humans which contradicts the week long creation.

[The Fake Shemp]

if dino's lived a long time before humans, which fossils back up then the week long creation story makes no sense. I am not arguing there is facts for transition fossils.

I am arguing there are fossils that PROVE certain animals lived long before humans which contradicts the week long creation.

Well, you see, it's like thi- HEY LOOK ITS JESUS!

/Phoenix Dark runs out of the room

[Candyflip]

Faith amazes me. Organized religion will do anything it can to completely change anything that they feel like in order to make it compatible with their life. Horseshit.

[Ichirou]

I'm amazed that PD has the cojones to criticize the Catholic Church, which has become remarkably progressive over the last 50 years, while adhering to the tenets of the totally looney tunes creationists.  The unmitigated gall!

[MrAngryFace]

Faith amazes me. Organized religion will do anything it can to completely change anything that they feel like in order to make it compatible with their life. Horseshit.

I hope you arent linking Faith with Organized Religion, cause they parted ways a looooong time ago.

[Cheebs]

PD please respond to this claim, you keep avoiding it and asking for proof of evolution. I am not trying to prove evolution, I want you to confront this obvious flaw in the creation myth.

[brawndolicious]

it doesn't matter to him you know?

[Cheebs]

it doesn't matter to him you know?

he says he doesn't believe in evolution cause of a lack of fossils. Yet he believes that all creatures of the earth were created in the same week yet there are no humans or "modern" animals dead in the same era as dino's and other creatures.

His own logic of using fossils to refute evolution also refutes creation.

[Phoenix Dark]

it doesn't matter to him you know?

he says he doesn't believe in evolution cause of a lack of fossils. Yet he believes that all creatures of the earth were created in the same week yet there are no humans or "modern" animals dead in the same era as dino's and other creatures.

His own logic of using fossils to refute evolution also refutes creation.

Well looks like both are down to faith then

[Cheebs]

it doesn't matter to him you know?

he says he doesn't believe in evolution cause of a lack of fossils. Yet he believes that all creatures of the earth were created in the same week yet there are no humans or "modern" animals dead in the same era as dino's and other creatures.

His own logic of using fossils to refute evolution also refutes creation.

Well looks like both are down to faith then

there are no fossils to "back up" my faith but there aren't any that DESTROY my belief as there are with yours.

Give me a logical reason to explain massive amounts of fossils for various  dino species but absolutley not a single modern day human? They were created within 2 days of eachother so they lived alongside eachother. Fossils, even you admitted, show dinosaurs RULING the earth with absolutely no modern day human kind with any place whatsoever.

Fossils show humans did not exist in the same time frame as dinosaurs, yet your belief says we did.

[MrAngryFace]

I hope the dinosaurs come back instead of jesus to teach you NO DINOSAUR guys a goddamn lesson.