Kirk Cameron to Prove God's Existence Scientifically on ABC's Nightline

[brawndolicious]

creation of universe is different than creation of life.  who said the universe was around forever?

[Phoenix Dark]

When we talk of the creation of the universe we aren't talking about evolution, correct? Now that we are off the issue of evolution though, how is the creation of the universe explained? In the video it was suggested that it has simply always been there in one degree or another, and just has gone through changes from phenomenas such as the big bang. Why is it logical to suggest that the universe has simply been around forever, but illogical to suggest a higher being has been around forever? Both arguments seem to be based on the idea that a particular thing - a universe or a higher being - have been around forever, and have no beginning or (presumably) end

Uhh, IIRC it's pretty commonly agreed upon that the universe did have a beginning, IE it didn't exist forever. "Something came from nothing." Remember Hawking's lecture?

Ah ok; I thought it was believed that the universe was forever, but "empty" for a long time before phenomenas such as the big bang filled out the space, so to speak.

Is there anywhere else in biology or science where something is derived from nothing?

[Flannel Boy]

Yes, but how? Evolution strives to provide a logical explanation for the development of life, and how all life came to be. But so far all I've seen is how everything moved on from a certain point. Again, I'm not well versed on the subject at all. I'm reading the Blind Watchmaker at the moment.

I believe you are not talking about some version of Biblical creationism but rather some sort theistic evolution belief where God starts the process of evolution. The latter position is not really creationism, at least how it is normally understood.

When we talk of the creation of the universe we aren't talking about evolution, correct? Now that we are off the issue of evolution though, how is the creation of the universe explained? In the video it was suggested that it has simply always been there in one degree or another, and just has gone through changes from phenomenas such as the big bang. Why is it logical to suggest that the universe has simply been around forever, but illogical to suggest a higher being has been around forever? Both arguments seem to be based on the idea that a particular thing - a universe or a higher being - have been around forever, and have no beginning or (presumably) end

Well, one explanation is far more plausible than the other. We know the universe exists, or at least can be fairly certain that it does exist, and only have to add that it is infinite. With God we have to add another entity to the universe and then explain how this entity was created and how it interacts with the universe. It is a less parsimonious solution and there is no evidence to believe that it is true.

[Candyflip]

Yes, but how? Evolution strives to provide a logical explanation for the development of life, and how all life came to be. But so far all I've seen is how everything moved on from a certain point. Again, I'm not well versed on the subject at all. I'm reading the Blind Watchmaker at the moment.

I believe you are not talking about some version of Biblical creationism but rather some sort theistic evolution belief where God starts the process of evolution. The latter position is not really creationism, at least how it is normally understood.

Right. But how does evolution make that impossible, or at the very least decrease the likelihood that this could be the case? Obviously it can't properly coincide with traditional religious views of creationism, but it doesn't mean there is an alternative truth that we're unaware of. What is the source of the most basic building blocks of life? Where did cells, atoms, and quarks come from?

[Phoenix Dark]

Well, one explanation is far more plausible than the other. We know the universe exists, or at least can be fairly certain that it does exist, and only have to add that it is infinite. With God we have to add another entity to the universe and then explain how this entity was created and how it interacts with the universe. It is less parsimonious solution and there is no evidence to believe that it is true.

In other words it's more simple to believe there is no God - because of the various things we'd have to explain if there was - therefore there is no God? Occam's razor

We have open and obvious evidence that there is a Universe, we do not have any evidence that there is a God. That's the argument, correct? And you do not accept that the universe is evidence of God's existance for reasons mentioned earlier.

[brawndolicious]

physically, time, NOT MATTER, came from nothing.  that is an arbitrary definition.  any physical thing is defined by time and that's why the definition has to be changed with new discoveries.

[TVC15]

Perhaps the putz from Growing Pains should have tried a different argument than the one King Kong Humungadunga of current atheists hadn't already tackled over 20 years ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evidence-Evolution-Universe/dp/0393315703/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4239761-3637662?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178997647&sr=8-1

[Hollywood]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

[Candyflip]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

First of all, Superstring Theory is distinguished mentally-challenged, and a large majority of the scientific community has pretty much abandoned it.

Second, lolparanormal. Ghosts? And how would UFO's support the existence of God in any way? You don't believe that in this massive, constantly expanding universe with hundreds of thousands of galaxies and billions of planets that there can not be intelligent life anywhere? Right.

[Hollywood]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

First of all, Superstring Theory is distinguished mentally-challenged, and a large majority of the scientific community has pretty much abandoned it.

Second, lolparanormal. Ghosts? And how would UFO's support the existence of God in any way? You don't believe that in this massive, constantly expanding universe with hundreds of thousands of galaxies and billions of planets that there can not be intelligent life anywhere? Right.

Point being, there's something there that is not of the physical world. I'm not saying that proves or disproves a God, but being nieve to say what you see is what you get is pretty damn distinguished mentally-challenged. There is some weird shit out there thats happened to a lot of people with lots of different subjects. Ghosts, demons, UFO's, abductions, etc. The very vanilla physical, we're the only ones out there type of world some people believe in is pretty arrogant to think of - because we as humanity don't know jack shit about anything.

[Candyflip]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

First of all, Superstring Theory is distinguished mentally-challenged, and a large majority of the scientific community has pretty much abandoned it.

Second, lolparanormal. Ghosts? And how would UFO's support the existence of God in any way? You don't believe that in this massive, constantly expanding universe with hundreds of thousands of galaxies and billions of planets that there can not be intelligent life anywhere? Right.

Point being, there's something there that is not of the physical world. I'm not saying that proves or disproves a God, but being nieve to say what you see is what you get is pretty damn distinguished mentally-challenged. There is some weird shit out there thats happened to a lot of people with lots of different subjects. Ghosts, demons, UFO's, abductions, etc. The very vanilla physical, we're the only ones out there type of world some people believe in is pretty arrogant to think of - because we as humanity don't know jack shit about anything.

Mind pointing me towards any sound experiences related to abductions, near death experiences, demons, and ghosts that are entirely credible?

[Hollywood]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

First of all, Superstring Theory is distinguished mentally-challenged, and a large majority of the scientific community has pretty much abandoned it.

Second, lolparanormal. Ghosts? And how would UFO's support the existence of God in any way? You don't believe that in this massive, constantly expanding universe with hundreds of thousands of galaxies and billions of planets that there can not be intelligent life anywhere? Right.

Point being, there's something there that is not of the physical world. I'm not saying that proves or disproves a God, but being nieve to say what you see is what you get is pretty damn distinguished mentally-challenged. There is some weird shit out there thats happened to a lot of people with lots of different subjects. Ghosts, demons, UFO's, abductions, etc. The very vanilla physical, we're the only ones out there type of world some people believe in is pretty arrogant to think of - because we as humanity don't know jack shit about anything.

Mind pointing me towards any sound experiences related to abductions, near death experiences, demons, and ghosts that are entirely credible?

None you would believe, no, so its pointless. Why bother arguing with someone who has a closed mind? I'll you and example, just for the heck of it.

I saw this one on Nightline, about a young boy who has a past life regression experience, his name was James (also his name in the past life) who said things about being a WWII pilot, and wasn't exposed to any WWII documentaries or anything. I'm sure you're response will be "well lolz he's a kid he can change the channel on the TV" or some ignorant response - except for the fact the name of the pilot checks out, he pointed out specific things about the type of plane that only pilots would know, where he was shot down, around what island, and the first and last name of who his best friend was. And it all checked out. So you can't tell me that shit was in any documentary (which it wasn't, especially the inpossible thing of pointing out the first and last name of his best friend during that time - who was still alive and they actually MET). It's personally my favorite story of past life regression I've heard. This is kind of a short article on it, but I've read more in detail things about it at other sites.

Here's the story if you want to open your mind a little:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Technology/story?id=894217&page=1

[Candyflip]

Ugh. Why try to prove this one way or another? I believe there is a God, but I believe that some evolution of species has taken place. Bottom line: we're really pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Hell, its only been a few hundred years since we "discovered" a giant chunk of the world. We've barely had our own world intercommunicating with one another, we can't even get our asses to another single planet in our small little solar system - much less outside the galaxy to see the billions of those out there. Anyone who tries to explain shit or is 100% for sure there is no God is pretty arrogant - because we don't know crap. On the atheist side, it comes down to 'we cant see you, so your not there' and religions sode we have ancient religious leaders (yes I believe in one of them), but we can't know for sure. Look how much paranormal shit that happens in this world you can't explain - ghosts, UFO's, near death experiences, etc; there's no way someone could be arrogant or distinguished mentally-challenged enough to say the only thing that exists is the physcial dimension. Even the beloved science arguments now say there are probably 10-11 dimension of things we don't know about.

First of all, Superstring Theory is distinguished mentally-challenged, and a large majority of the scientific community has pretty much abandoned it.

Second, lolparanormal. Ghosts? And how would UFO's support the existence of God in any way? You don't believe that in this massive, constantly expanding universe with hundreds of thousands of galaxies and billions of planets that there can not be intelligent life anywhere? Right.

Point being, there's something there that is not of the physical world. I'm not saying that proves or disproves a God, but being nieve to say what you see is what you get is pretty damn distinguished mentally-challenged. There is some weird shit out there thats happened to a lot of people with lots of different subjects. Ghosts, demons, UFO's, abductions, etc. The very vanilla physical, we're the only ones out there type of world some people believe in is pretty arrogant to think of - because we as humanity don't know jack shit about anything.

Mind pointing me towards any sound experiences related to abductions, near death experiences, demons, and ghosts that are entirely credible?

None you would believe, no, so its pointless. Why bother arguing with someone who has a closed mind? I'll you and example, just for the heck of it.

I saw this one on Nightline, about a young boy who has a past life regression experience, his name was James (also his name in the past life) who said things about being a WWII pilot, and wasn't exposed to any WWII documentaries or anything. I'm sure you're response will be "well lolz he's a kid he can change the channel on the TV" or some ignorant response - except for the fact the name of the pilot checks out, he pointed out specific things about the type of plane that only pilots would know, where he was shot down, around what island, and the first and last name of who his best friend was. And it all checked out. So you can't tell me that shit was in any documentary (which it wasn't, especially the inpossible thing of pointing out the first and last name of his best friend during that time - who was still alive and they actually MET). It's personally my favorite story of past life regression I've heard. This is kind of a short article on it, but I've read more in detail things about it at other sites.

Here's the story if you want to open your mind a little:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Technology/story?id=894217&page=1

You have me pegged all wrong. If I were close minded then I'd be more likely to accept religion in the first place. Anyway, the problem I have with things like this is my skepticism. I can't help but feel a lot of it is either created for attention, money, or manipulation. Or just to weird people out. Things like these I'd have to experience myself. Sorry if I insulted you or anything.

[Hollywood]

I'dd agree there are a lot of people out for money maybe, but I think the vast majority aren't - they just wanna tell their tale of what happened to them. I could understand if people say things, then go out and try to make profit, but I don't think a lot are. Weird stuff happens, and it seems to me the easier thing to do would just to shut up about it and pretend it never happened, instead of being ridiculed by closed minded individuals.

[Flannel Boy]

Odd that nobody has ever claimed the one million dollar Randi prize.

Human testimony is anecdotal evidence and should be approached with extreme skepticism.

[Candyflip]

Even if any of this was true, how would it support the idea of God?

[Hollywood]

I'm not making these statements to support for or against God's existence, just pointing out that we really don't know jack about the world we live in, so why are any one of us an authority on trying to prove/disprove something above the laws of nature? The standard response to any of it, is to completely attack someone's credibility if something unexplainable occured and say they have alterior motives. I mean I've had a couple of very simple things happen to me I'm not really sure how to explain, I probably wouldn't state them here just because of the fact you get attacked, called an idiot, say your making stuff up or are wrong if you try to say something.

It's really pretty horrible how closed minded society is. I think a lot has to do with the powers that be that manipulate the media towards certain areas. If you ever look at old 30's,40's, and 50's papers, you ever notice how a UFO sighting spotted by dozens of people would make the paper? Now do you ever see anything about that stuff in the paper? Not only do you not see it, but you're a wacko if you believe in it, or claim to have saw one.

[Flannel Boy]

Hicks spot UFO's every single day, so it's not really news. And most journalists know how weak unsupportable anecdotal is. YOU DON'T, HOWEVER.

[TVC15]

Hicks spot UFO's every single day, so it's not really news. And most journalists know how weak unsupportable anecdotal is. YOU DON'T, HOWEVER.

ARE YOU DOUBTING MEL'S HOLE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel%27s_hole

[Hollywood]

Hicks spot UFO's every single day, so it's not really news. And most journalists know how weak unsupportable anecdotal is. YOU DON'T, HOWEVER.

Not talking about people sitting in their yards seeing a plane, but weird phenomina that can be recorded (ex, Phoenix Lights) or plenty of pictures out there (even before photoshop was created). Anyway, I'm done, I'm not about to get into a flame war on here about this. Continue your rants about people who believe such and such are stupid, distinguished mentally-challenged, etc, etc - whatever makes you feel better about yourself for others having a different opinion.

[Cyanista]

The only stupid belief is that one knows something absolutely.

[Flannel Boy]

The only stupid belief is that one knows something absolutely.

Is that something you know absolutely?

[Phoenix Dark]

Oh snaps

[Cyanista]

The only stupid belief is that one knows something absolutely.

Is that something you know absolutely?

Absolutely not.