The Official Psychoanalysis GAF Thread

[Tasty]

I understand why businesses do it, but I don't understand why people defend it. I also think it's an outdated concept.

Doesn't help companies are usually dicks when their games leak. Big deal. The industry needs more transparency.

[Mr. Gundam]

So companies should just announce everything as they start development? Yeah, that will go well when 80% of those titles are canceled during the pre-production phase.

[Steve Youngblood]

I understand why businesses do it, but I don't understand why people defend it. I also think it's an outdated concept.

Andrex, you always have and will continue to come across as an entitled whiner who is just upset that he doesn't get to be part of the Insiders Club. I hope you realize that.

[ToxicAdam]

President of the Fanclub-syndrome.

[Tasty]

I understand why businesses do it, but I don't understand why people defend it. I also think it's an outdated concept.

Andrex, you always have and will continue to come across as an entitled whiner who is just upset that he doesn't get to be part of the Insiders Club. I hope you realize that.

It's pretty much my schtick at this point anyways. May as well take it all the way.

[Tasty]

So companies should just announce everything as they start development? Yeah, that will go well when 80% of those titles are canceled during the pre-production phase.

And the downside will be...? We know more about games? Unseen64 is awesome for this reason.

Boo hoo, poor investors making decisions based on actual more info.

[Steve Contra]

I understand why businesses do it, but I don't understand why people defend it. I also think it's an outdated concept.

Doesn't help companies are usually dicks when their games leak. Big deal. The industry needs more transparency.

So you don't understand at all why businesses do it.  Got it, you should have just said so.

[Steve Youngblood]

And the downside will be...? We know more about games?

Boo hoo, poor investors making decisions based on actual more info.

The downside is that it may be detrimental to their bottom-line to have information disclosed about strategy going forward before they are ready to announce it.

[Shadow Mod]

How are NDAs outdated? What.

[Tasty]

I understand why businesses do it, but I don't understand why people defend it. I also think it's an outdated concept.

Doesn't help companies are usually dicks when their games leak. Big deal. The industry needs more transparency.

So you don't understand at all why businesses do it.  Got it, you should have just said so.

Obviously companies shouldn't announce anything until it's actually on store shelves. Will better protect against the rampant IP theft plagueing the industry.

[Tasty]

And the downside will be...? We know more about games?

Boo hoo, poor investors making decisions based on actual more info.

The downside is that it may be detrimental to their bottom-line to have information disclosed about strategy going forward before they are ready to announce it.

"may be"

I've never seen a company financially hurt by a non-cancelled game being announced too early. Duke Nukem Forever? FFV13? You think anyone would give a damn about them if they were announced and released in the same year?

As for cancelled games, isn't it in the best interest of gamers to have all the information available?

[Steve Youngblood]

How are NDAs outdated? What.

Andrex is just applying the concept of the need for transparency in governance to corporations. And he's doing so not because of any legitimate arguments he has about why that should legitimately be the case, but because he doesn't like it when folks like DCharlie and Van Cruncheon tease stuff they know but aren't allowed to talk about. It's not fair that they know stuff and he doesn't, gosh darn it! This is the information age!

And the downside will be...? We know more about games?

Boo hoo, poor investors making decisions based on actual more info.

The downside is that it may be detrimental to their bottom-line to have information disclosed about strategy going forward before they are ready to announce it.

"may be"

I've never seen a company financially hurt by a non-cancelled game being announced too early. Duke Nukem Forever? FFV13? You think anyone would give a damn about them if they were announced and released in the same year?

As for cancelled games, isn't it in the best interest of gamers to have all the information available?

What the fuck are you even talking about? You're using very specific and narrow examples in some poor attempt to make a broad point.

[Tasty]

How are NDAs outdated? What.

Andrex is just applying the concept of the need for transparency in governance to corporations. And he's doing so not because of any legitimate arguments he has about why that should legitimately be the case, but because he doesn't like it when folks like DCharlie and Van Cruncheon tease stuff they know but aren't allowed to talk about. It's not fair that they know stuff and he doesn't, gosh darn it! This is the information age!

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

[Steve Youngblood]

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

I'm not pro-corporation. However, I fail to understand why their responsibility in this relationship where they produce goods they very much want me to consume extends to me deserving to know what's going on in their board room. There is lots of bullshit that goes on that I consider anti-consumer. You are failing spectacularly at demonstrating how failing to be completely transparent in what they are planning is one of them.

[Tasty]

What the fuck are you even talking about? You're using very specific and narrow examples in some poor attempt to make a broad point.

Then please enlighten me using better examples. Clearly, if I'm 100% in the wrong it shouldn't be very hard to come up with something so iron-clad I renounce my position on the spot.

[Mr. Gundam]

Clearly Andrex is so incredibly business savvy, we should just rerwite the way corporations run themselves. Board members and shareholders will be delighted at his revolutionary new way of operating.

This isn't exclusive to your precious gaming industry. My wife works for large multi-national company, and they have NDAs for a very good reason.

[Steve Youngblood]

What the fuck are you even talking about? You're using very specific and narrow examples in some poor attempt to make a broad point.

Then please enlighten me using better examples. Clearly, if I'm 100% in the wrong it shouldn't be very hard to come up with something so iron-clad I renounce my position on the spot.

Your case is that they owe us complete transparency, and you've failed to elucidate why. Why don't you make your case?

[Tasty]

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

I'm not pro-corporation. However, I fail to understand why their responsibility in this relationship where they produce goods they very much want me to consume extends to me deserving to know what's going on in their board room. There is lots of bullshit that goes on that I consider anti-consumer. You are failing spectacularly at demonstrating how failing to be completely transparent in what they are planning is one of them.

I never said it was anti-consumer, I said it was pro-corporation, which it is. It's defending corporate practices that have no benefit (as opposed to negative benefit) to consumers.

[Mr. Gundam]

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

I'm not pro-corporation. However, I fail to understand why their responsibility in this relationship where they produce goods they very much want me to consume extends to me deserving to know what's going on in their board room. There is lots of bullshit that goes on that I consider anti-consumer. You are failing spectacularly at demonstrating how failing to be completely transparent in what they are planning is one of them.

I never said it was anti-consumer, I said it was pro-corporation, which it is. It's defending corporate practices that have no benefit (as opposed to negative benefit) to consumers.

Then voice your opinion with your money. If you don't like it, don't buy their products.

[Tasty]

Clearly Andrex is so incredibly business savvy, we should just rerwite the way corporations run themselves. Board members and shareholders will be delighted at his revolutionary new way of operating.

This isn't exclusive to your precious gaming industry. My wife works for large multi-national company, and they have NDAs for a very good reason.

I never implied it was, just that it's a problem in he games industry specifically.

To use an example, patents are crucial and necessary in some fields like medicine, but completely toxic in others like software.

[Tasty]

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

I'm not pro-corporation. However, I fail to understand why their responsibility in this relationship where they produce goods they very much want me to consume extends to me deserving to know what's going on in their board room. There is lots of bullshit that goes on that I consider anti-consumer. You are failing spectacularly at demonstrating how failing to be completely transparent in what they are planning is one of them.

I never said it was anti-consumer, I said it was pro-corporation, which it is. It's defending corporate practices that have no benefit (as opposed to negative benefit) to consumers.

Then voice your opinion with your money. If you don't like it, don't buy their products.

Such a weaksauce copout thing to post. I'm not taking my ball and running home just because you can't convince me that NDA's aren't outdated in the games industry.

If you're not interested in engaging in a discussion, then don't, but don't try throw your hands up and say "Welp, it's the way it is, deal with it!" I know it's the way it is, that's why I'm talking about it. Dumb ass.

[Steve Youngblood]

I never implied it was, just that it's a problem in he games industry specifically.

To use an example, patents are crucial and necessary in some fields like medicine, but completely toxic in others like software.

Can you precisely define why it's a problem in the games industry? I have not seen you make your case other than to invoke the ideal of this being the information age, and if info is out there, we should all have access to it. I have not seen you explain why this should or needs to be the case in any sort of convincing fashion. As is, you just come across as the guy at the table who doesn't like people whispering in sight of him. "Hey, tell one tell all! Am I right!?"

[Mr. Gundam]

And somehow this makes the entire argument illegitimate? Ad hominem incarnate.

Never knew you could be so pro-corporation, Stevey boy.

I'm not pro-corporation. However, I fail to understand why their responsibility in this relationship where they produce goods they very much want me to consume extends to me deserving to know what's going on in their board room. There is lots of bullshit that goes on that I consider anti-consumer. You are failing spectacularly at demonstrating how failing to be completely transparent in what they are planning is one of them.

I never said it was anti-consumer, I said it was pro-corporation, which it is. It's defending corporate practices that have no benefit (as opposed to negative benefit) to consumers.

Then voice your opinion with your money. If you don't like it, don't buy their products.

Such a weaksauce copout thing to post. I'm not taking my ball and running home just because you can't convince me that NDA's aren't outdated in the games industry.

If you're not interested in engaging in a discussion, then don't, but don't try throw your hands up and say "Welp, it's the way it is, deal with it!" I know it's the way it is, that's why I'm talking about it. Dumb ass.

You're cute when you're angry.

It's not a cop-out, I'm just not bothered by it like you clearly are.

I'm not a businessperson, nor do I work in the industry. I don't have the answers, but your defense of transparency and "no more NDAs" just seems to be coming from an extremely narrow view of the larger picture.

[Shadow Mod]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46052191&postcount=236

[Tasty]

I never implied it was, just that it's a problem in he games industry specifically.

To use an example, patents are crucial and necessary in some fields like medicine, but completely toxic in others like software.

Can you precisely define why it's a problem in the games industry? I have not seen you make your case other than to invoke the ideal of this being the information age, and if info is out there, we should all have access to it. I have not seen you explain why this should or needs to be the case in any sort of convincing fashion. As is, you just come across as the guy at the table who doesn't like people whispering in sight of him. "Hey, tell one tell all! Am I right!?"

So transparency isn't worth pursuing for its own sake?

The benefits to consumers are negligible in the sense that we've gotten along fine without them since the beginning of the industry. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to improve things.

As it is, I remain thoroughly unconvinced they're necessary for the industry to continue working as-is. I understand they're a useful tool, or maybe were at some point in the past, but it's stifling today. The NDA requirements on console SDKs made sense right after 80s crash, but freely available SDKs for newer platforms shows how out of date the practice is. NDAs had their time and place, but it's long past.

[Steve Youngblood]

So transparency isn't worth pursuing for its own sake?

I don't think that complete, across the board transparency is some sort of inherently great ideal. I'm not sure why I would. If they want me to buy a product, I think it behooves them to make as much information about that product as possible freely available to me. But the strategic planning stage where nothing is officially ironed out? For instance, I can't fathom what kind of legitimate argument I would make right now for arguing that Microsoft and Sony are obligated to disclose information to me about the next Xbox/PS4 that they are disclosing strategically to insiders.

I can make the case that it would be swell of them to do so in order to facilitate me better arguing about the console wars here and at GAF. But that doesn't strike me as a sincere argument in as much as it comes across as me complaining to my mom that it's not fair that I have to wait until Christmas to open my presents.

[Sman]

Is The Nigerian TheBlackStallion?

Yes.

[Steve Contra]

There are specific legal reasons for NDAs, Andrex.  Publicly traded companies have to be very careful about when and how they announce things .  Having NDAs and legal recourse when these are broken is a good way to do this.

[Tasty]

So transparency isn't worth pursuing for its own sake?

I don't think that complete, across the board transparency is some sort of inherently great ideal. I'm not sure why I would. If they want me to buy a product, I think it behooves them to make as much information about that product as possible freely available to me. But the strategic planning stage where nothing is officially ironed out? For instance, I can't fathom what kind of legitimate argument I would make right now for arguing that Microsoft and Sony are obligated to disclose information to me about the next Xbox/PS4 that they are disclosing strategically to insiders.

I can make the case that it would be swell of them to do so in order to facilitate me better arguing about the console wars here and at GAF. But that doesn't strike me as a sincere argument in as much as it comes across as me complaining to my mom that it's not fair that I have to wait until Christmas to open my presents.

The difference being that it's your parents deciding the best time for you to know, instead of a corporation. Defending your parents' actions I generally take as more agreeable than defending a corporation, but, tomato tomato I suppose.

There are specific legal reasons for NDAs, Andrex.  Publicly traded companies have to be very careful about when and how they announce things .  Having NDAs and legal recourse when these are broken is a good way to do this.

If you say so.

[Steve Contra]

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

[Tasty]

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT

Or maybe I'm onto something! 

[Steve Contra]

No you're not.  Suppose a company just let out whatever proof of concept, demo, pitch etc. whenever some animator felt it was necessary.  At some point they'd have like 20 games on their plate, including licenses they don't own, tech they haven't licensed etc.  Let's say some investors look at that and say, wow, looks good.  And then financials come out and they're working on a My Little Ponies game for Leapfrog and nothing else and suddenly investors are like what the fuck and they say "well shit, some guy on the internet wanted game news earlier".

[Steve Youngblood]

The difference being that it's your parents deciding the best time for you to know, instead of a corporation. Defending your parents' actions I generally take as more agreeable than defending a corporation, but, tomato tomato I suppose.

The more important point is just that it's not information that I can argue that I need to know. My parents don't owe me an explanation of what they bought me before Christmas. Sony doesn't owe me an explanation about what GPU is going to be in the PS4 or what games they're aiming to have ready for launch right now, as they haven't chosen to officially unveil the PS4.

The other day, I was playing Texas Hold 'Em. That game is such bull shit. The dealer looked to me and said "it's your bet, sir." I just looked back at him stupefied. How the fuck am I supposed to know what to bet when I don't know what cards my opponent has or what's coming?

[Steve Contra]

Hey guys, we've cracked quantum computing!

Wait, I guess I heard that wrong, it's a just a paper someone is writing.  Good thing there's no NDA.

[Tasty]

its just absurd to me to insist that there be transparency in a creative process. Could you even justify that among any other medium? Film maybe.

I would love for the games industry to become even halfway as transparent as film. It's an older industry so they actually have this all (mostly) figured out.

The difference being that it's your parents deciding the best time for you to know, instead of a corporation. Defending your parents' actions I generally take as more agreeable than defending a corporation, but, tomato tomato I suppose.

The more important point is just that it's not information that I can argue that I need to know. My parents don't owe me an explanation of what they bought me before Christmas. Sony doesn't owe me an explanation about what GPU is going to be in the PS4 or what games they're aiming to have ready for launch right now, as they haven't chosen to officially unveil the PS4.

The other day, I was playing Texas Hold 'Em. That game is such bull shit. The dealer looked to me and said "it's your bet, sir." I just looked back at him stupefied. How the fuck am I supposed to know what to bet when I don't know what cards my opponent has or what's coming?

It isn't crucial information in the conventional sense. As I said, we've gotten along fine so far. But I don't think we've gone far enough. I would love to see Sony blog about the different GPUs it was thinking of going with. Then maybe they'd get some feedback to steer them away from something as distinguished mentally-challenged as RSX.

"But then MS will just copy them, or do something better!" I would like to think Sony and Microsoft are knowledgeable enough to know all the possible options in any case. Why would a competitor going with X GPU change anything? It wouldn't. The only instance I could see is one of them choosing not to go with a similar GPU to make ports to competitors more difficult, but there would be pushback there from third parties.

No you're not.  Suppose a company just let out whatever proof of concept, demo, pitch etc. whenever some animator felt it was necessary.  At some point they'd have like 20 games on their plate, including licenses they don't own, tech they haven't licensed etc.  Let's say some investors look at that and say, wow, looks good.  And then financials come out and they're working on a My Little Ponies game for Leapfrog and nothing else and suddenly investors are like what the fuck and they say "well shit, some guy on the internet wanted game news earlier".

Transparency also extends to include honesty on the status of various games in development. It would be up to the investors not to be complete morons and to pay attention, and invest accordingly. That's what they're (ostensibly) paid for, anyways.

[Tasty]

Hey guys, we've cracked quantum computing!

Wait, I guess I heard that wrong, it's a just a paper someone is writing.  Good thing there's no NDA.

You're actually making a good case here.

No NDAs would mean we'd instantly get to know which people are morons that take things at face value.

[Mr. Gundam]

You work in tech, right? Have you brought up this idea of no NDAs to your coworkers or boss?

[Joe Molotov]

Is The Nigerian TheBlackStallion?

Yes.

shitbin

[Steve Contra]

:facepalm

You simply don't get it. 

[Mr. Gundam]

Companies do get feedback. They probably don't want feedback from random people on the internet.

:facepalm

You simply don't get it.

I'm sure he gets it, he just doesn't care and wants the information.

[Steve Contra]

You work in tech, right? Have you brought up this idea of no NDAs to your coworkers or boss?

Yes, ask your boss to let you off the NDA because you want to be more transparent with the media.

[Tasty]

:facepalm

You simply don't get it.

Maybe, but your examples aren't exactly illuminations to the soul.

[Steve Contra]

:facepalm

You simply don't get it.

I'm sure he gets it, he just doesn't care and wants the information.

This seems about right.  Though I'm not sure.  Ask DCharlie about the SEC and what happens if he starts running his lip.

[Tasty]

You work in tech, right? Have you brought up this idea of no NDAs to your coworkers or boss?

Yes, ask your boss to let you off the NDA because you want to be more transparent with the media.

Working within the system doesn't mean you have to approve of it.

"If you don't like the Patriot Act, move to Canada you commie!"

[Verdigris Murder]

There are specific legal reasons for A3DS, Andrex.  Publicly traded companies have to be very careful about when and how they announce, things .  Having NDAs and legal recourse when these are broken is a good way to do this.

Laws.

[Mr. Gundam]

You work in tech, right? Have you brought up this idea of no NDAs to your coworkers or boss?

Yes, ask your boss to let you off the NDA because you want to be more transparent with the media.

Working within the system doesn't mean you have to approve of it.

"If you don't like the Patriot Act, move to Canada you commie!"

Then you should totally talk to them about it. Make some waves and bring about change.

[Steve Contra]

:facepalm

You simply don't get it.

Maybe, but your examples aren't exactly illuminations to the soul.

Well that's because you don't really have any context besides what you want to see.  Lawsuits, criminal cases all come out of employees running their mouths when hey shouldn't be.  NDAs are meant to be a stop to that.

[Verdigris Murder]

The A is always in front.

[Tasty]

Companies do get feedback. They probably don't want feedback from random people on the internet.

At that point, it would be for them to decide. And it wouldn't be random people, it would mostly be their fans.

AKA the people most likely to buy their product. But I guess Sony doesn't need to pay attention to those people.

[Mr. Gundam]

:facepalm

You simply don't get it.

I'm sure he gets it, he just doesn't care and wants the information.

This seems about right.  Though I'm not sure.  Ask DCharlie about the SEC and what happens if he starts running his lip.

I can't talk about the cases or students I work with. Big time lawsuits ahoy.

[Broseidon]

Shut up, Andy.

[Tasty]

Then you should totally talk to them about it. Make some waves and bring about change.

Maybe I will. Maybe I won't. It's barely tangential to the conversation and nothing more than a distraction since you know, on some level, that I'm right.

[Steve Youngblood]

It isn't crucial information in the conventional sense. As I said, we've gotten along fine so far. But I don't think we've gone far enough. I would love to see Sony blog about the different GPUs it was thinking of going with. Then maybe they'd get some feedback to steer them away from something as distinguished mentally-challenged as RSX.

Or, they'd just be the contestant on The Price is Right trying to guess how much this refrigerator costs as jackasses in the audience yell at them prices ranging from "$1!!!" to "$20,000!!!"

"But then MS will just copy them, or do something better!" I would like to think Sony and Microsoft are knowledgeable enough to know all the possible options in any case. Why would a competitor going with X GPU change anything? It wouldn't. The only instance I could see is one of them choosing not to go with a similar GPU to make ports to competitors more difficult, but there would be pushback there from third parties.

I don't think the implication is necessarily just that their ideas will invariably be copied and improved upon in as much as the idea would just be that they prefer the competition being in the dark about what they're doing. Maybe it is that their million dollar idea may be stolen. Or maybe they just don't want the competition to have time to react to the key design choices made. Why is it beneficial to them for the competition to know what they're planning every step of the way. For that matter, why is it beneficial to us outside of a desire to know things?

[Tasty]

Laws.

LAW, MAN

Like, I know there's LAWS and PRECEDENTS out there that totally make NDAs crucial to every single company out there to survive. I just won't say what they are.

[Steve Contra]

One more thing, in most cases most people under NDA aren't even aware of the status of a project.  I've been on plenty of cancelled projects that were months in negotiations to be cancelled and we didn't know until....


(Wait for it)

Everyone else did.

[Tasty]

I don't think the implication is necessarily just that their ideas will invariably be copied and improved upon in as much as the idea would just be that they prefer the competition being in the dark about what they're doing. Maybe it is that their million dollar idea may be stolen. Or maybe they just don't want the competition to have time to react to the key design choices made.

So you agree it makes no logical sense.

Why is it beneficial to them for the competition to know what they're planning every step of the way.

It isn't, but that's my point. Why should we care? More knowledge creates more fervored competition. If Microsoft was going to release 360.5 but Sony announced they were leapfrogging them significantly, and Microsoft beefed their next system up, you don't think that's a net win for consumers even if it's a loss of competitive edge for Sony?

For that matter, why is it beneficial to us outside of a desire to know things?

I've explained it several times, keep up. I know it might be a little difficult for you.

[Steve Contra]

Laws.

LAW, MAN

Like, I know there's LAWS and PRECEDENTS out there that totally make NDAs crucial to every single company out there to survive. I just won't say what they are.

It's called an 8-k.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_8-K#When_Form_8-K_is_required

So please shut up now.

[Tasty]

One more thing, in most cases most people under NDA aren't even aware of the status of a project.  I've been on plenty of cancelled projects that were months in negotiations to be cancelled and we didn't know until....


(Wait for it)

Everyone else did.

Good, that's the model that should be applied top to bottom.

[Tasty]

Laws.

LAW, MAN

Like, I know there's LAWS and PRECEDENTS out there that totally make NDAs crucial to every single company out there to survive. I just won't say what they are.

It's called an 8-k.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_8-K#When_Form_8-K_is_required

So please shut up now.

No, because just posting that doesn't say anything.

[Shadow Mod]

Andrex. Every new project you do I hope you blog about it extensively so others can steal your ideas.