The Official Psychoanalysis GAF Thread

[Tasty]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

[Great Rumbler]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

But they did know a good idea when they saw it. Which is how they were able to become billionaires.

[Shadow Mod]

By bringing up Gates and Jobs you merely proved my point about ideas men.

In what way? They didn't just sit around thinking, "man, if only I could program and design..."

What do you think they did with their products? They had teams to develop their ideas. Are you really this fucking dense?

[Mupepe]

Smaller innovations are probably worth protecting, but I would still give the edge to their execution rather than the pure idea.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

[DCharlieJP]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive advantage?

There are no words here!

What would have happened if Nintendo announced what waggle was going to be when they first came up with the idea? Given MS were in the process of trying to acquire Nintendo at that time, do you think the no longer unique wii would have then lead to them being MS Xbox team? In your alternate universe , your favorite company would be toast

Also Nintendo have the scariest NDAs outside of big scary industries

[Mupepe]

How do you confuse the most obvious fucking thing in the world

Beats me.  But I'm guessing it has something to do with not thinking this whole thing through and now being too arrogant to admit that he was wrong.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

[Tasty]

But they did know a good idea when they saw it. Which is how they were able to become billionaires.

That goes back to the what I said: what were those ideas doing before Gates and Jobs found them? Nothing for anybody.

What do you think they did with their products? They had teams to develop their ideas. Are you really this fucking dense?

Develop. Execute.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

[Great Rumbler]

Smaller innovations are probably worth protecting, but I would still give the edge to their execution rather than the pure idea.

I think Andrex is confusing the following:

"Damn it would be sweet if I could build a solar panel that extracted more energy from the sun"

with

"Damn, I have an idea how to build a solar panel that extracts more energy from the sun.  We just need to put ____ with _____ and connect it to _____" and so on...

No one is trying to protect the first line with an NDA because everyone already has that idea.  But why the hell wouldn't you want to keep people's mouth shut about the second idea?

He also using this argument to downplay the importance of good ideas:

"I'm a regularly guy and I had a great idea for a solar panel but I don't have the money or the technical experience to execute it."

vs.

"I'm an engineer at a major company, so I will build an awesome solar panel."

Yes, execution matters in this stilted comparison, largely because one person is actually in a situation where they can execute and the other isn't. Sure, execution in that situation matters a lot. But that discounts this situation:

"I'm an engineer at a major company and I have just been handed two ideas for a solar panel: one is really good and the other is terrible."

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

[Shadow Mod]

I'd just like to know what he thinks ad majors do because many of them are not taught execution.

[Tasty]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

[Huff]

Fucking leper Andrex already. And then help him sign up for the local community college

[Tasty]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

[Mupepe]

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

You really think a larger company with larger resources wouldn't be able to out maneuver you with specifics??  Yeah, you're just naive.  Even if your product is better they can probably beat you to the market and outstrip your mindshare.

[Tasty]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

[DCharlieJP]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive e
advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

.... You cannot be seriously this stupid, right?

[Great Rumbler]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

[Mupepe]

Andrex thinks the Wii was a success for its game library, not the waggle gimmick.

[Tasty]

I'm not confusing it but I think the discussion got derailed a little with Devo. A little too abstract.

As for the second example, it isn't my place to worry about whether the process would be copied. If it was my company, I would focus on finishing the process as well and as quickly as possible. Since it's my process, I would still always have an edge on someone seeking to knock it off.

You really think a larger company with larger resources wouldn't be able to out maneuver you with specifics??  Yeah, you're just naive.  Even if your product is better they can probably beat you to the market and outstrip your mindshare.

Larger companies are usually not able to move as fastly as smaller ones. MySpace could have crushed Facebook, but were too slow.

Counting on that happening is foolish, but I think in the gaming industry specifically, for all the possible permutations I can imagine, tossing NDAs would be a net gain and few if any companies would really lose anything.

[Shadow Mod]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

It's so obvious but here we are.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

[Tasty]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

[Tasty]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks?

[Shadow Mod]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

[Tasty]

Okay - let's say , as an example, that I know MS has a certain something up their sleeve which would be a huge deciding factor in the next gen war.

Under Andrextopia - MS would have to give this idea away thus potentially throwing away a competitive e
advantage?

What is the competitive advantage to keeping it a secret. Tell me.

.... You cannot be seriously this stupid, right?

I want to know what you think.

[Great Rumbler]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

It did, yes. Nintendo got a nearly a year and half with their analog stick on the market before Sony came out with their version.

[Steve Contra]

And one more thing, about a year ago a competitor tipped their hat to me unknowingly.  In a blog post ( ) it led to me quickly pulling together some cash and jumping on what they had before they did.

[Tasty]

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

Actually, when I first brought it up, I said they're worthless next to execution. Then I misspoke the second time I was talking about it, and amended my statement.

To wit:

Ideas are worthless next to execution.

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

[Shaka Khan]

In a true Himu fashion, allow me to break the tension with a moist fart...

 Mmm such a relief. Now everyone try it.

[Steve Contra]

Fuck, isn't there that story about Nintendo testers having to test the analog stick under cover (pun intended).  What if they had just given that away?

Then Sony would have copied it!

It's a good thing only Nintendo controllers have analog sticks. Them keeping it in the dark worked out great!

I assume you don't know about competitive advantage?  Of course revolutionary tech gets copied, but it's when it gets copied that matters.

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks?

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

[FStop7]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506792

hey guys let's all get hung up on an adjective rather than discuss the issue at hand y'all

[Tasty]

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

The thrust of my point is that the games industry should be more transparent, and that while not actively doing any harm, consumers would benefit from them being more open with their processes.

[Great Rumbler]

But, ah, I guess the idea doesn't matter very much as long as the execution is good, he can just pick whichever he wants and random and it'll turn out okay in the end.

I said "next to execution," so both ideas being equal, execution matters vastly more than the idea itself.

And that can be easily turned on its head. Take two companies that are exactly the same. Same level of budget, same level of employee skill. Give one the great idea and one the bad idea, see where that gets you.

But that isn't what I said. Of course a hypothesis doesn't hold up if you change the controlled variable.

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

[Shadow Mod]

You said ideas are worthless, then next to execution they're worthless. You're pulling a bruiserbear right now.

Actually, when I first brought it up, I said they're worthless next to execution. Then I misspoke the second time I was talking about it, and amended my statement.

To wit:

Ideas are worthless next to execution.

I should amend my previous post to the one from the last page: "Ideas are worthless next to execution."

Ideas that are copied are usually not executed as well. And those that are merely give consumers more choice. It's how game design has evolved. Everything is a knockoff of something in some way.

Either way it's a stupid statement because ideas are the foundation upon which everything rests. You'd have been better off saying bad ideas are worthless. Good ideas are never worthless hence why they get stolen.

[Tasty]

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

Alright. Then I'll admit I'm not being pragmatic about some of it. But I still believe in the overall idea.

Either way

Who's the dense one now?

Also- If a stolen good idea is executed better than the original, then it's a net gain for me as a consumer. Speaking in games industry terms.

[Steve Contra]

So how are NDAs an outdated concept again?  You're arguing two separate things here, and they are mutually exclusive.

The thrust of my point is that the games industry should be more transparent, and that while not actively doing any harm, consumers would benefit from them being more open with their processes.

And yet you haven't shown anything close to that.  Weird.

[DCharlieJP]

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks

No - it was good for Nintendo. With everyone having ultimate knowledge of what all other competitors are doing would lead to an absolute lack of innovation effort - why bother if you have no means to protect your ideas?

[Shadow Mod]

Who's the dense one now?

What are you talking about. I'm saying you didn't help your case amending your statement.

Also- If a stolen good idea is executed better than the original, then it's a net gain for me as a consumer. Speaking in games industry terms.

Holy shit you can't be serious. You've never ran into a product in which a company tries to outpace someone else's idea but ends up with a shitty product as a result? You think the stuff gets stolen and is typically made better? Ugh.

[StealthFan]

You guys are wasting so much time arguing with this moron. Look how many pages you've produced in the past 24 hours.

[Steve Contra]

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks

No - it was good for Nintendo. With everyone having ultimate knowledge of what all other competitors are doing would lead to an absolute lack of innovation effort - why bother if you have no means to protect your ideas?

And there's the general thrust.  If every dipshit working for you is going to take pictures of every design doc you have why be in business?  And then who does that help?

[Tasty]

Who's the dense one now?

What are talking about. I'm saying you didn't help your case amending your statement.

I messed up the second time I typed it because I'm replying to like 12 people, lol. It hurts my case as much as a typo, since I started out and have been consistent with saying "next to execution."

You messed up by assuming I wasn't.

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks

No - it was good for Nintendo. With everyone having ultimate knowledge of what all other competitors are doing would lead to an absolute lack of innovation effort - why bother if you have no means to protect your ideas?

Money? Creativity? The drive for wealth and to make something is still just as strong, it's just now there's more inspiration to draw from.

[Shadow Mod]

So you're saying it's good for consumers that PS1 players had to wait longer to get analog sticks

No - it was good for Nintendo. With everyone having ultimate knowledge of what all other competitors are doing would lead to an absolute lack of innovation effort - why bother if you have no means to protect your ideas?

And there's the general thrust.  If every dipshit working for you is going to take pictures of every design doc you have why be in business?  And then who does that help?

Consumers dude. The competition will make a better one and then all of the companies will be forced to compete for real!

[Great Rumbler]

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

Alright. Then I'll admit I'm not being pragmatic about some of it. But I still believe in the overall idea.

Go to a shady construction company and get them to work up a blueprint for the house you want to build.

[Tasty]

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

Alright. Then I'll admit I'm not being pragmatic about some of it. But I still believe in the overall idea.

Go to a shady construction company and get them to work up a blueprint for the house you want to build.

I've been clear from the start I'm only concerned with the games industry in this discussion.

[Shadow Mod]

Exactly, your hypothesis only works in a controlled environment.

Alright. Then I'll admit I'm not being pragmatic about some of it. But I still believe in the overall idea.

Go to a shady construction company and get them to work up a blueprint for the house you want to build.

This reminds me of when a part of my dad's G5 broke, apparently two companies were in competition to build that part, one stole docs in order to be the one to get the contract first. Part broke because the intel was bad. lul.

[Flannel Boy]

You guys are wasting so much time arguing with this moron. Look how many pages you've produced in the past 24 hours.

it's been more like 24 minutes.

[DCharlieJP]

Last try :

Universe 1 : Nintendo launch Wii - waggle shown late - massive success. MS and Sony scramble to counter, but they missed out

Universe 2 : Nintendo launch Wii - but they disclosed the waggle very early - MS and Sony able to include waggle at launch. Competitive advantage for Nintendo squandered.

- you can see no reason at all why NDAs help turn differentiating ideas into success stories and how that would be lost in noNDA land?

Also : Miyamoto should give out the specs/design docs for all his up coming projects ? I mean - that doesn't dilute his genius at all does it? What about his worth to any single company?

[Shadow Mod]

Last try :

Universe 1 : Nintendo launch Wii - waggle shown late - massive success. MS and Sony scramble to counter, but they missed out

Universe 2 : Nintendo launch Wii - but they disclosed the waggle very early - MS and Sony able to include waggle at launch. Competitive advantage for Nintendo squandered.

- you can see no reason at all why NDAs help turn differentiating ideas into success stories and how that would be lost in noNDA land?

I think his point is that MS/Sony should have been able to make their own versions because he's under the assumption they would have and that's overall better for gamers.

He doesn't care about competition/advantages among companies but thinks consumers are that entitled.

[Broseidon]

Devo that soccergoalie dude is back and he's being a cunt again 

[Shadow Mod]

Devo that soccergoalie dude is back and he's being a cunt again 

Sorry bruh I got banned for posting when I'm supposed to be clairvoyant and avoid all threads some mod doesn't like.

[DCharlieJP]

I think his point is that MS/Sony should have been able to make their own versions because he's under the assumption they would have and that's overall better for gamers.

So - along with NDAs do we trash IP/copyright laws too? Better for gamers and all that - plus, Nintendo games on iOS : better for gamers

Just seems to be more than a touch naive ...

[Steve Contra]

Last try :

Universe 1 : Nintendo launch Wii - waggle shown late - massive success. MS and Sony scramble to counter, but they missed out

Universe 2 : Nintendo launch Wii - but they disclosed the waggle very early - MS and Sony able to include waggle at launch. Competitive advantage for Nintendo squandered.

- you can see no reason at all why NDAs help turn differentiating ideas into success stories and how that would be lost in noNDA land?

Also : Miyamoto should give out the specs/design docs for all his up coming projects ? I mean - that doesn't dilute his genius at all does it? What about his worth to any single company?

Universe 3: Nintendo discloses waggle way too early.  Sony copies it as last ps2 peripheral.  It bombs, people mock it, Nintendo execs scramble, wii comes out as conventional console, waggle added as peripheral months later, is forgotten.

No one wins.

[StealthFan]

You guys are wasting so much time arguing with this moron. Look how many pages you've produced in the past 24 hours.

it's been more like 24 minutes.

lolno. Check the times again bro. People were arguing with him earlier.

[Shadow Mod]

I think his point is that MS/Sony should have been able to make their own versions because he's under the assumption they would have and that's overall better for gamers.

So - along with NDAs do we trash IP/copyright laws too? Better for gamers and all that - plus, Nintendo games on iOS : better for gamers

Just seems to be more than a touch naive ...

It's naive and idealistic as all hell. When companies rush to copy each other we don't automatically win out on better products to choose from. It's often the opposite due to being first to the finish line.

[Tasty]

Consumers dude. The competition will make a better one and then all of the companies will be forced to compete for real!

As opposed to everyone just lying on the ground, starving because they have no motivation to do anything since there's a chance it might be copied.

[Broseidon]

Devo that soccergoalie dude is back and he's being a cunt again 

Sorry bruh I got banned for posting when I'm supposed to be clairvoyant and avoid all threads some mod doesn't like.

Wah?

[Shadow Mod]

Consumers dude. The competition will make a better one and then all of the companies will be forced to compete for real!

As opposed to everyone just lying on the ground, starving because they have no motivation to do anything since there's a chance it might be copied.

The irony is that your statement applies more to the inability to safeguard ideas. Then what would be the point of entrepreneurship? Trying to establish new things would be futile if it's always made public.

Devo that soccergoalie dude is back and he's being a cunt again 

Sorry bruh I got banned for posting when I'm supposed to be clairvoyant and avoid all threads some mod doesn't like.

Wah?

Just meant I can't engage his lulz. I don't think I posted my ban reason.

Continuing to provoke a user when you knew exactly how it was going to turn out (e.g. a shit thread).

[cool breeze]

Hey guys, so how bout' dat NeoGAF? I heard they be actin' a fool over there

%insert link%

.

[Tasty]

lolno. Check the times again bro. People were arguing with him earlier.

It's been like four and a half hours.

I probably got ahead of myself by posting my far-future ideals for the world, but I really just wanted to defend my position on NDAs in the gaming industry. I don't think they're necessary anymore, for anyone, but especially gamers.

[Tasty]

The irony is that your statement applies more to the inability to safeguard ideas. Then what would be the point of entrepreneurship? Trying to establish new things would be futile if it's always made public.

That's what my post was making fun of. The idea that nothing would be worth trying because it might be copied is absurd. NDAs are a relatively new invention in the history of media, and as far as I'm concerned, an unnecessary one in most cases when applied to the gaming industry.