The Official Psychoanalysis GAF Thread

[Stoney Mason]

Adding actiony, more complex battles can be a hindrance to these types of games. Many times, most of the enemies act like simple obstacles because they are simple obstacles and that is all that is needed from them. The greater obstacles are bosses and puzzles. Prime 2 made the combat a little too long and I think it threw off the pacing. The knight fights in Wind Waker were fun and a sort of step between boss fight and ordinary dumb foe, but I think these games work well with dumb foes. It's part of the whole feel of these sorts of games. You really aren't a total badass warrior in Zelda or a game like Ico. You're a boy with a sword.

This.

[Shuri]

Real Talk: Snatcher is actually a pretty terrible game.

[brob]

fighting has never been my preferred bit of zelda. I always get annoyed with Wind Waker for making me fight fools when all I want to do is run around doing side quests and sail the seas.

[cool breeze]

Adding actiony, more complex battles can be a hindrance to these types of games. Many times, most of the enemies act like simple obstacles because they are simple obstacles and that is all that is needed from them. The greater obstacles are bosses and puzzles. Prime 2 made the combat a little too long and I think it threw off the pacing. The knight fights in Wind Waker were fun and a sort of step between boss fight and ordinary dumb foe, but I think these games work well with dumb foes. It's part of the whole feel of these sorts of games. You really aren't a total badass warrior in Zelda or a game like Ico. You're a boy with a sword.

^more or less my one big issue with Darksiders

[Cindi Mayweather]

Adding actiony, more complex battles can be a hindrance to these types of games. Many times, most of the enemies act like simple obstacles because they are simple obstacles and that is all that is needed from them. The greater obstacles are bosses and puzzles. Prime 2 made the combat a little too long and I think it threw off the pacing. The knight fights in Wind Waker were fun and a sort of step between boss fight and ordinary dumb foe, but I think these games work well with dumb foes. It's part of the whole feel of these sorts of games. You really aren't a total badass warrior in Zelda or a game like Ico. You're a boy with a sword.

I don't really expect it to be more actiony but I certainly expect it to evolve. Arbiters grounds in TP was pretty much how I'd like them to take it. You're fighting like 20 skeleton warriors at once. Sure it's easy, but the result is a more menacing, and likewise more threatening Zelda. Arbiters Grounds stands as one of the few Zelda dungeons that actually FEELS like a dungeon. Every video I've seen for SS looks boring in comparison. Maybe it means my game tastes have changed, but I don't think so. I'm not asking they make link a badass, because you're certainly not a badass in Demon's Souls and yet that game has better combat and game fundamentals than your standard modern Zelda. I'm asking they modernize it. I think it's a bullshit excuse to say "well it's about being a boy with a sword!" in a game series where having full hearts can one hit kill an enemy and shoot a fucking flying sword because you're certainly playing a different series than me.

Look at Metroid Prime. That game is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's Metroid but far more deep an experience in terms of mechanics, combat, exploration. Saying combat isn't a big thing in zelda is flat out wrong. If you're not exploring or solving puzzles you're fighting. Metroid Prime didn't make Samus a badass but that doesn't stop the game from having complexity.

[magus]

Real Talk: Snatcher is actually a pretty terrible game.

OPEN ->
DOOR

"i can't open the door i have to check my surrounding first"

LOOK ->
SURROUNDING

"people are walking around,there seems to be nobody around"

OPEN ->
DOOR

"somehow the door doesn't open"

LOOK ->
DOOR

"it's a wooden door,you notice something something"

OPEN ->
DOOR

and then the door finaly opens

I don't really expect it to be more actiony but I certainly expect it to evolve.

everytime i read someone saying "i want it to evolve" i read it as "i want them to change it into something i like" i hate it

[Cindi Mayweather]

And what's wrong with that? Your commentary mostly devolved towards that line of thought for about every game you play. You always complain if a game isn't something you like, which is to say every game you play and you have a problem with people critizing one of the biggest franchises in gaming for looking fuck boring? Hypocritical much?

[magus]

nothing wrong with that,but i don't understand why people have to say it like that,like classic gaming is some kind of old ghost we have to shoo away

i mean what kind of distinguished mentally-challenged logic is that a game was great in the 98 but it's not great in the 2010? saying that a game looks like a 1998 game should be a compliment considering how many classics happened during that era!

so in short... bring me ancient dinosaurs relic!

[Mr. Gundam]

I'd play old school turn-based JRPGs on the HD consoles if developers would make them, but people seem to hate them now.

[Cindi Mayweather]

What are you talking about? Link to the Past is an evolution on the original Zelda. Suggesting something evolve does not equate to saying it needs to be entirely different. Nothing wrong with classic games. Nothing in the word "evolution" has any relevance to what you're even talking about.

[Cindi Mayweather]

nothing wrong with that,but i don't understand why people have to say it like that,like classic gaming is some kind of old ghost we have to shoo away

i mean what kind of distinguished mentally-challenged logic is that a game was great in the 98 but it's not great in the 2010? saying that a game looks like a 1998 game should be a compliment considering how many classics happened during that era!

so in short... bring me ancient dinosaurs relic!

Once again, learn to read.

1998, in my opinion, is the best year ever for games. A lot of my favorite games are from 1998.

But 1998...was 1998.

In 1998, 3d games were not really viable for games like Zelda. Nintendo's way of fixing that? Z-targeting. Well guess what? It's 2011 and since Z-targeting's invention, games have pressed on and done much better.

Why settle for 1998 design when I can have something that much better?

Why do you think most rpgs don't have random battles anymore? Because they don't need them anymore. Technology and design has gotten to the point where they're unnecessary.

But please cling to the past.

[magus]

But please cling to the past.

saying that there is nothing wrong into clinging to the past was exactly my point

[Cindi Mayweather]

The problem is: you're clinging to the past for outdated mechanics and features that have since been improved. Your argument is the equivalent of "well, Mario 64 had a camera so why bother changing it? It worked then, it'll work now" That was 1996. This is 2011.

[pilonv1]

@ needs more whimsy

[magus]

well z-targeting combat is still quite functional unlike mario 64 camera and they had the time to remove it and change with something else starting from wind waker... i don't see where is the problem or why it's a problem now?

i mean even darksiders had that and i don't remember anybody complaining about and that was a game released a year ago

[Cindi Mayweather]

Z-targeting, while functional is very outdated, or at the very least, the implementation as seen in that video. Look at that video. What awesome-o wrote is 100% correct. Instead of doing something different and exciting, they ham it up and add waggle on top and you guys are trying convince us this isn't the same ol' Zelda that has been made since 1998?

It's problem to me because fine, Twilight Princess came out in 2006 right when this generation was getting started, so I don't have a problem with that. And it's just not z-targeting I have a problem with either, it's the whole package. We can use the excuse that I'm old and jaded, but I don't think so.

But here we are, the third generation of 3d Zelda. And look at it, and then compare it to its competition. In 1998, if you compared Zelda to its competition, it was leaps and bounds beyond everything else by a very wide girth. Now? It looks an uninspired Gamecube game with 90's era design. Oh great, I have to wave my wiimote to swing on a rope, but at the crux of the matter, it's really disappointing, especially after Mario Galaxy pretty much reinvented Mario.

well z-targeting combat is still quite functional unlike mario 64 camera and they had the time to remove it and change with something else starting from wind waker... i don't see where is the problem or why it's a problem now?

i mean even darksiders had that and i don't remember anybody complaining about and that was a game released a year ago

Z-targeting isn't the problem just a symptom. Even Assassin's Creed has lock on.

[magus]

and you guys are trying convince us this isn't the same ol' Zelda that has been made since 1998?

not me,i'm just here to defend the glorious PSX era!

SONY

[Cindi Mayweather]

psx is my favorite system, but if a modern FF came out with the same features FF7 had (random battles all that bullshit) I'd still raise a stink.

I said the same thing about mega man legends 3 from that demo gameplay. "Wow, I would totally buy that if it were made in 1999"

[youtube=560,345]JDJZsUT1b0M[/youtube]

 

[magus]

I said the same thing about mega man legends 3 from that demo gameplay. "Wow, I would totally buy that if it were made in 1999"

see for me this is kind of a moron logic,if it was good in 1999,it's good now,that's what i meant when i say i hate when people say "THINGS NEED TO EVOLVE!"

[Great Rumbler]

I said the same thing about mega man legends 3 from that demo gameplay. "Wow, I would totally buy that if it were made in 1999"

see for me this is kind of a moron logic,if it was good in 1999,it's good now,that's what i meant when i say i hate when people say "THINGS NEED TO EVOLVE!"

Sonic Adventure 1 was great back in 1999. I absolutely loved it.

Tried to play it again recently and I hated it. The controls are horrible and floaty, the collision detection is awful, the camera might be one of the worst ever in a 3D game, and all the scripting in the levels is stupid and the exact opposite of fun.

So, yeah, times change, bro.

[Cindi Mayweather]

The problem is that 3d gaming is in constant rotation for new mechanics because it's a far more touchy way of making games compared to 2d. So unless the 3d game back in the late 90's is utterly simplistic to the point where it doesn't really matter (Wipeout, Ridge Racer, Crash Bandicoot, Intelligent Qube, Devil Dice for instance) your point makes no sense. Tomb Raider may have been cool back in 1996 but those games are trash now.

[brob]

Sonic Adventure was ass back when it came out Rumbler, don't kid yerself.

[Great Rumbler]

Sonic Adventure was ass back when it came out Rumbler, don't kid yerself.

True or not, that didn't change how I felt about it back then.

[brob]

bring me this pre-pubescent rumbler and I will argue with him.

[Phoenix Dark]

Sonic Adventure was amazing at the time...

[Great Rumbler]

Sonic Adventure was amazing at the time...

*high-five*

[brob]

by '99 I had played all the good crash bandicoot games, at least one spyro game and mario64. Sonic Adventure was poop and y'alls some tasteless motherfuckers.

[Phoenix Dark]

Back then I thought Sonic Adventure shat on Mario 64.

[brob]

at least you realize now what a turd it is. all's well that ends well, as they apparently say.

[Tasty]

The entire thing screams outdated not just combat. Those games need to be few visioned from the ground up. Also the point in bringing up ninja Gaiden isn't "this is how Zelda should be" but rather "look at all of the alternatives games inspired by 3d Zelda have branched out into and look at where Zelda is. It looks pathetic"

The point is that Ninja Gaiden is a completely different genre and I highly doubt it was much inspired by Zelda. Certainly not more than the Ninja Gaiden NES games. Your comparisons are misguided at best and purposely disingenuous at worst.

I would instead compare new Zelda games to other "Zelda-like" games and see what it can learn from them, like Okami or Darksiders. What do those games do that Zelda doesn't?

Besides that, the combat in Skyward Sword is built around MotionPlus. If that's not your cup of tea that's fine but the combat will literally be the best motion combat ever in a video game. That excites me, personally. As for the enemy patterns, we've already seen more variations of vertical/horizontal slashes to kill enemies blocking horizontally/vertically. I'm sure the enemies will get more varied as the game goes on.

Finally, Zelda is usually a 30- to 60-hour long game. We've probably seen less than 2% of it at this point. You blame Nintendo "for not releasing footage" but that's how it has to be. We saw way too much of Twilight Princess, and most of what we saw didn't even make it into the game.

[Cindi Mayweather]

The first Ninja Gaiden CAN be classified as action adventure with an emphasis on the action side of things. There are multiple points where the action completely slows down to a halt and you just do a bunch of platforming.

And whether it's in a different genre or not is irrelevant. Demon's Souls is in a different genre, and guess what, many still find it comparable to Zelda due to the sword and shield combo and yet DS has far more deep combat than Zelda.

"The best motion combat ever in a video game" just made me barf in my mouth. For a game of its pedigree, Zelda SS looks like dog shit.

[brob]

throw it all out and start from scratch. dude in green, some lady princess and a big mean pig-dude and some triforce. make a game.

Then again I was never the biggest Zelda fan to begin with. Wind Waker is my favorite of the console ones. because of the sailing. so, yeah...

[Tasty]

throw it all out and start from scratch. dude in green, some lady princess and a big mean pig-dude and some triforce. make a game.

Then again I was never the biggest Zelda fan to begin with. Wind Waker is my favorite of the console ones. because of the sailing. so, yeah...

That would literally be an Ocarina of Time remake then.

Honestly I think people care more about the story in Zelda than they care to admit. That's why Wind Waker felt so different, aside from the art style. The story made the world different (Great Ocean), it had Ganon as an old man which was a great twist, Link as a little kid for the whole game, etc. People bag on TP for being OoT probably because the world is so similar. Hyrule Field, Ganon looking barely older than his OoT self, etc. If the story were completely different I wonder if people would feel the same way about the series being stagnant.

[Cindi Mayweather]

Well, story goes a long way because the gameplay mechanics of the games are often tied to story.see: link's awakening, link to the past, majora's mask, wind waker.

But no, I'm for a complete overhaul. I'd be in favor of Retro taking a shot at a new Zelda, in first person, and give in Metroid Prime treatment.

[EmCeeGrammar]

If y'all wanna be uninformed apathetics cuz lol sd waggle wii game, thats fine.  Its obvious that anyone claiming Skyward Sword isn't attempting to shake things up has not been reading into the development team's stated goals for the game or the nuances that have been gleamed from demo play.

    I'm excited for the blending of overworld and dungeon.  I'm excited their stated objective is density over scope. I'm excited at the prospect of nonlinear dungeons, as the demo dungeon has been discovered to be very flexible in its progression.  I'm excited at the prospect of slightly more cerebral combat with intuitive controls without making it into a flashy combofest that would ABSOLUTELY wreck the pacing of an exploration puzzle game.  I'm excited for the various streamlining of functions ranging from the new item selection method to the dash function.  I'm excited over the upgrade system offering a greater range of awards to reward exploration beyond heart pieces and rupees.  Hell, the only thing I don't look forward to is the story, but Skyward Sword just keeps up the win with SKIPPABLE CUTSCENES.

The only thing I sorta want is a confirmation of Super Guide, as it has allowed them to release challenging games to great success.

[Cindi Mayweather]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

[brob]

That would literally be an Ocarina of Time remake then.

Honestly I think people care more about the story in Zelda than they care to admit. That's why Wind Waker felt so different, aside from the art style. The story made the world different (Great Ocean), it had Ganon as an old man which was a great twist, Link as a little kid for the whole game, etc. People bag on TP for being OoT probably because the world is so similar. Hyrule Field, Ganon looking barely older than his OoT self, etc. If the story were completely different I wonder if people would feel the same way about the series being stagnant.

oot remake? nah, I mean they should make the game bits different from the formula. Like, wind waker had the world covered in water and you sailed around instead of horsing, but it was largely the same. same type of dungeons, same type of enemies, same type of puzzles, same controls, same everything. throw it all out and make a legend of zelda prime of some sort. keep whatever EAD considers to be the core of the zelda experience (exploration? puzzlin 'n fighting? central story elements?) and just make it different. even if it's just for the explicit reason of making it different.

They won't. there is no reason to. Zelda probably sells well enough as it is, and nintendo is real good about making games just slow enough that they are getting new fans that haven't had too much yet as others start falling off. but it would be nice if all they did was catered to my whims. (at which point they'd be making Wind Waker 2 with less fighting and maybe some harvest moon shit in there just to make it even less confrontational)  

[EmCeeGrammar]

And lol at bashing Zelda controls and then using Prime as some kind of counterpoint.  Its the fucking zelda controls with pewpewpew.

[EmCeeGrammar]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

The game isn't out yet.  Why would it be smart to damn the whole thing based on ONE (one!) area of an early dungeon intended for demo purposes.

edit:  How would they effectively even communicate the laundry list of changes they are making anyway.  As it is I can SEE the improved combat.  I can see Link move through areas quicker with a nimble ease.  I can see from the first E3 demo the idea they were hinting at with an outside forest meadow with spots of interest. 

[Cindi Mayweather]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

[Cindi Mayweather]

You keep bringing up fucking INTERVIEWS. In other games they SHOW US the changes.

The game isn't out yet.  Why would it be smart to damn the whole thing based on ONE (one!) area of an early dungeon intended for demo purposes.

I'm not damning the whole thing, but golly does it look like a boring turd, and when I see a turd I call it. It's three months until release and a new Zelda looks like a steaming pile. Not a good sign.

[AdmiralViscen]

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

[brob]

Zelda 1's openness isn't "good game design" anymore sadly. exploration these days is going left hoping to find a dead-end with a chest when you are told to go right.

[Cindi Mayweather]

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

[Cindi Mayweather]

Zelda 1's openness isn't "good game design" anymore sadly. exploration these days is going right hoping to find a dead-end with a chest when you are told to go right.

I don't think it'd be like that dude. When he means open, he means Morrowind travel across awesome terrain killing moblins do whatever you want in any order open.

[brob]

traveling across open terrain killing moblins was already in OoT and TP wasn't it? with the huge and empty hyrule field everybody loves/hates?

What stands out about Zelda1 to me is the lack of hand-holding and how you could just happen upon stuff. A dungeon here a hidden secret here. not something I see making a return in a big market title like Zelda.

[EmCeeGrammar]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

...
You mean like the various swathe of behaviours employed by the enemies we've seen in Skyward Sword media.  Man, selective memory is a bitch.

I wqa hoping the rumored reinvention of zelda on wii woukd be an open world zelda 1 inspired romp

I would like this.

[Cindi Mayweather]

traveling across open terrain killing moblins was already in OoT and TP wasn't it? with the huge and empty hyrule field everybody loves/hates?

What stands out about Zelda1 to me is the lack of hand-holding and how you could just happen upon stuff. A dungeon here a hidden secret here. not something I see making a return in a big market title like Zelda.

I think they could make it interesting. Metroid Prime is full of interesting shit.

[fistfulofmetal]

i've always saw metroid as the only nintendo series for adults. everything else is kiddie shit.

[Cindi Mayweather]

No one is bashing Zelda controls aside from waggle. Metroid Prime has lock on, but enemies have a much wider palette of behavior and patterns than Zelda does and isn't that in the same genre as Zelda? Lock on is not a problem, many games today still use lock on.

...
You mean like the various swathe of behaviours employed by the enemies we've seen in Skyward Sword media.  Man, selective memory is a bitch.

Well it certainly didn't look boring!

[brob]

i've always saw metroid as the only nintendo series for adults. everything else is kiddie shit.

Other M kinda negates that bro  

[fistfulofmetal]

 

[Oblivion]

Ganon's not in Skyward Sword, apparently.

[Cindi Mayweather]

I didn't archaic. I said outdated. Those are two different things. Many games today have taken what OoT originally did and enhanced it. If it were archaic, they would be archaic too. However, I can't see how you CAN'T look at that video I posted and NOT think that outdated as all fuck.

[EmCeeGrammar]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

He certainly doesn't want a Zelda game.  When someone uses God of War as some example of genre progression to aspire to one has to question the dubious priorities.

edit:  Its like arguing 2d Mario is 'outdated' because Super Metroid expanded on the concept of sidescrolling platforming.  Thats reta.... BONKERS!

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't want Zelda to be like God of War, but God of War sure as fuck plays better, at least mechanically, than modern Zelda. Look at how smooth that shit looks. Looks like a hot knife to butter. Look at Skyward Sword. Looks like an nintendo fan masturbating: awkward.

[Cindi Mayweather]

So himu's trolling again? Or is he in stupid "this is archaic wahwahwah give me a game like this one!" mode for realz?

He certainly doesn't want a Zelda game.  When someone uses God of War as some example of genre progression to aspire to one has to question the dubious priorities.

edit:  Its like arguing 2d Mario is 'outdated' because Super Metroid expanded on the concept of sidescrolling platforming.  Thats reta.... BONKERS!

2d Mario ain't outdated. It's timeless! We're talking about 3d gaming. Keep your strawmen out of this talk!

[Oblivion]

I personally wouldn't mind the combat being more complex, but honestly, that area isn't even in my top 10 grievances with recent Zeldas.

[brob]

that skyrim sure is looking great, don't y'all agree?

[Oblivion]

if they made zelda a first-person oblivion-like affair i would probably vomit until i died

Also this.