Used to be, a white man could compliment a stacked dame's tits--what happened?

[Howard Alan Treesong]

PAX investigates where things went wrong.

[Steve Contra]

5 guys one girl on a panel discussing this.  Seems reasonable.

[Joe Molotov]

This all started happening right when the videogame industry started going down the crapper. Coincidence?

[Howard Alan Treesong]

5 guys one girl on a panel discussing this.  Seems reasonable.

"Reasonable?" Seems hot. It's just like one of my Japanese animes!

[Steve Contra]

All of them whiteys as well.  I expect a balanced discussion.  Also when did Penny Arcade go from being something to simply mock to actually fucking terrible?

Also I noticed that it isn't "has it gone too far?" but rather "it's gone too far".

[nudemacusers]

pics of girl on panel?

/gamerbro

[Don Flamenco]

I figured all the FGC bashing was just projection and picking on minorities.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

All of them whiteys as well.  I expect a balanced discussion.  Also when did Penny Arcade go from being something to simply mock to actually fucking terrible?

No one knows for sure, but most historians point to the year twenty-dickwolf-X as the beginning of Penny Arcade's fall from grace.

[Don Flamenco]

pics of girl on panel?

/gamerbro

[Howard Alan Treesong]

pics of girl on panel?

/gamerbro

(Image removed from quote.)

Like Polygon and the Last of Us, I give her a 7.5/10

[Steve Youngblood]

Hahahaha. Just when I feel like this circus can't get anymore entertaining, someone goes and does something like this. Fuckin' video games...

[Steve Youngblood]

You guys remember the good ol' days when I could live out my harmless fantasy of paying a hooker to have sex with me in the back seat of a car so that I could gain more vitality only to proceed to run over said hooker after the deed was done and reclaim that money? Where did it all go wrong?

[Don Flamenco]

Whatever, these guys are the trailblazers.  In 10 years when the whole world respects video games as a medium on par with books and movies, we will look back at these brave souls who took risks and their names will go in the history books.  This is their Freedom Ride, this is them daring to confront the issues that nobody wants to talk about and sweep under the rug, this is what democracy looks like!  This art form will never move forward until game girl advances!  Enough with the bro shooters and sports games, it's time to introduce diversity into the gaming spectrum to tap into the emotions and feelings of everybody.  But we can't move forward without introspection and every male in this hobby must look inward and see how they have contributed tacitly to sexism over the years whether it's in game or out of games.  And the only way to remove that shame is repentance.  Gamer bros, publicly apologize for sexism in video games or you can kiss your sex goo--oh right.

[brob]

quit trying to put the things I escape from into my escapism.

[Momo]

I dont give a single fuck about societal issues being represented in videogames apart from obvious racism for no reason. (thankfully not plentiful)

[magus]

Kotak complains about sexism -> Penny-Arcade complains about kotak -> this thread complaining about penny-arcade -> me complaining about this thread

WHEN WILL THE CYCLE ENDS SO WE CAN KEEP MAKING FUN OF THE XBOX ONE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

i even had a video to share

[close]

[nudemacusers]

You guys remember the good ol' days when I could live out my harmless fantasy of paying a hooker to have sex with me in the back seat of a car so that I could gain more vitality only to proceed to run over said hooker after the deed was done and reclaim that money? Where did it all go wrong?

I remember sneaking a copy of Leisure Suit Larry onto the computer as a teen. Hidden dos folders and everything 

[Trent Dole]

Oh, fear not, Xbone is still a shit. It's just that journalists attempting some semblance of progressiveness by wanting games to be free of girl cooties are too.

[Don Flamenco]

Did somebody order drama?  Here you go:

https://twitter.com/juliepagano/status/347749438355283968

[Philip Cardgage]

Some posts in the GAF Thread are right, everyone is WAY too quick to get offended.

If anything, the internet has cultivated a need to be part of some sort of hive mind. Whenever some perceived injustice springs forth, doesn't it feel good to be on the finger wagging side?

People need to loosen the fuck up.

The more you argue about these issues needlessly, the more taboo they become.

[Mandark]

The more you argue about these issues needlessly, the more taboo they become.

The way to keep something from being taboo is to avoid bringing it up, got it!

[Steve Contra]

People minorities, women and gays need to loosen the fuck up.  Can't we all be white men for once?

[Don Flamenco]

Twitter is the worst place ever to have a conversation, but it makes me feel like some roman emperor watching the peasants duke it out in a hopeless battle, where even the winner is maimed horribly.

so..don't tell anyone twitter is a bad place to have a convo plz thx

It goes beyond people's stances on things and goes straight to "you're trying to have a convo about a complex issue on a site that gives you 120 character to express yourself...you're bored or stupid or both."

[Human Snorenado]

Saying "people need to loosen the fuck up" about these issues when shit like this is going on is full on fucking derptastic

http://kotaku.com/we-dont-need-you-to-white-knight-us-poor-guy-thats-w-514315266

There's very real, very fucking shitty things that are happening in this industry to people just because they're female.  You guys playing the "lighten up, Francis" card shits all over that.

I'm the last person in the world to lecture people on manners and not saying horrible things, but you guys are being fucking stupid.

[Don Flamenco]

No, the people working it out on twitter are being fucking stupid.   These people don't care about shit, they just want to win something at that point.  Whether it's getting a perceived enemy's head on a pole or expressing what ever anger is in them and getting props from those who agree.

[Cerveza mas fina]

You figs need to lighten up

[brob]

No, the people working it out on twitter are being fucking stupid.   These people don't care about shit, they just want to win something at that point.  Whether it's getting a perceived enemy's head on a pole or expressing what ever anger is in them and getting props from those who agree.

So when someone says something bigoted or ignorant on twitter people shouldn't make mention? This Penny Arcade dude is apparently has a poor history with making statements about trans-people and is very clearly ignorant on the issue if you read his apology (or expanded remark, or whatever it is), so how should people go about educating him? Especially considering he is in a position of authority being one of the two dudes who run what is probably the biggest gaming convention in the world and draws what is probably the most read web-comic about video games.

[Philip Cardgage]

The more you argue about these issues needlessly, the more taboo they become.

The way to keep something from being taboo is to avoid bringing it up, got it!

"Argue" ---> [Anger Filter]  ---> "Bringing It Up"

[Mandark]

Don't you have to discard any Lighten Up cards you have in your deck once you've summoned the Panel Discussion onto the field?  Can't be wallowing in your own sense of persecution and kvetch about other people catching feelings.


I do think there's a way to frame the issue that might crack through the usual manchild gamer defensiveness, though:

You know how every time videogames are discussed on Fox News or some similar outlet?  Where they inevitably have hosts, commentators, and outside "experts" with little or no direct experience with videogames?  And how as a result of that lack of representation, they blithely make judgments on and present a distorted image of gaming to the general public?  How frustrating is it to be misrepresented by and condescended to by a group of people who never even tried to listen to you?  It's bullshit, right?

Well, women in videogames, etc.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I haven't followed this stuff too closely except for what pops up on Van Cruncheon's FB feed, but the fact that dudes are being made uncomfortable is almost definitely a good sign.  I could probably stay more up to date by checking the GAF thread but FUCK THAT.

[close]

PS mojo: Oh, sorry.  Maybe you could explain the ways women ought to talk about gender issues, for their own benefit?

[Steve Youngblood]

No, the people working it out on twitter are being fucking stupid.   These people don't care about shit, they just want to win something at that point.  Whether it's getting a perceived enemy's head on a pole or expressing what ever anger is in them and getting props from those who agree.

That's possibly true. However, it's possible that some are being sincere, and the issue is important to them. Generally speaking, when I find myself somewhat disenfranchised with a movement -- unless I just flat out disagree with the underlying principles of the movement -- I generally just bow out. It's a mostly untenable position to carve out the narrow stance of "I mostly agree with what you're about, but something about how you're doing it rubs me the wrong way."

It's kind of how I feel about trying to take on smug atheists. Those assholes generally bug the shit out of me, but it's just not fucking worth it to start an argument when we're largely in philosophical agreement about the what, just not the how (to go about presenting our views).

[Don Flamenco]

No, they shouldn't make mention if they can't do it without making the whole cause look stupid and trivial.   He's just getting piled on because it's twitter and it's easy. 

No, the people working it out on twitter are being fucking stupid.   These people don't care about shit, they just want to win something at that point.  Whether it's getting a perceived enemy's head on a pole or expressing what ever anger is in them and getting props from those who agree.

That's possibly true. However, it's possible that some are being sincere, and the issue is important to them. Generally speaking, when I find myself somewhat disenfranchised with a movement -- unless I just flat out disagree with the underlying principles of the movement -- I generally just bow out. It's a mostly untenable position to carve out the narrow stance of "I mostly agree with what you're about, but something about how you're doing it rubs me the wrong way."

It's kind of how I feel about trying to take on smug atheists. Those assholes generally bug the shit out of me, but it's just not fucking worth it to start an argument when we're largely in philosophical agreement about the what, just not the how (to go about presenting our views).

I really think the "fuck cis men" people are the ones on the "r/atheism" side of the spectrum.  And the "boys have penises etc" guys are not gonna be convinced by anything said on twitter. Then there are people who submit like 10 tweets in a row as if it were a forum post or text messaging.  The whole thing is a shit show.

[Mandark]

Twitter's not a great medium for nuanced discussion, but it can be a GREAT medium for getting all up in the grills of the e-famous.  Not like he was trying to have a respectful, mutual exchange of ideas anyway.

He says stupid shit on twitter, he gets flamed on Twitter.  All in the game.

[Philip Cardgage]

PS mojo: Oh, sorry.  Maybe you could explain the ways women ought to talk about gender issues, for their own benefit?

What's the most effective way to deal with a bully? Pop Culture says, don't be the kid who takes the long way home. But confront the bully punch him in the nose, send him home crying. And that will be the end of it.

In reality, that might be true for you, but generally, that kid either has several issues at home or have some really out of whack values instilled in him from his parents.

Or both.

So it won't stop the moment you "Dominate" him. Its a vicious cycle that just goes and goes and goes.

So, I've been with Big Brothers and Sisters now for 5 years or so and for the last year been working at their resource center on weekends for kids (doesn't need to be a Little) to come in and talk about stuff.

Quite a good number of these kids are homosexual ranging in the ages of 13-17, mostly 13.

Knowing I would counsel a good number of them, the training I got mostly centered on "Instill these kids with a sense of pride in self and awareness that there will be people in the world that don't accept them and they may not be able to change that."

So they ALL come in with bully attacks, mental, physical, whatever.

And the advice I give each and every one of them is, "Don't feel bad about yourself, feel bad about the people attacking you."

Follow ups have been good, some have even sort of befriended their bully, while some just let it bounce off.

As corny as it sounds, the most effective method for these kinds of thing is exposition instead of explosion.

Its not a war, you don't have to choose sides.

Thankfully, there were people in that GAF thread who just didn't understand what all the lingo was but wanted to know. The fact that people want to know is a good sign.

We're in a really REALLY weird age of society now where people outside of societal norms are coming out but you still have people who have lifetimes of conservative training under their belt.

They won't come around with you attacking them on twitter. You just let them be and hope they come around, and if they don't they don't.

And its just WAY too easy for people on the internet to gang up on people and say "NO YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE EVIL!" without letting them say their piece.

Gabe isn't doing the best job himself, but the whole thing can be handled better.

Just don't go to PAX, don't visit their site, that's it.

[headwalk]

No, the people working it out on twitter are being fucking stupid.   These people don't care about shit, they just want to win something at that point.  Whether it's getting a perceived enemy's head on a pole or expressing what ever anger is in them and getting props from those who agree.

That's possibly true. However, it's possible that some are being sincere, and the issue is important to them. Generally speaking, when I find myself somewhat disenfranchised with a movement -- unless I just flat out disagree with the underlying principles of the movement -- I generally just bow out. It's a mostly untenable position to carve out the narrow stance of "I mostly agree with what you're about, but something about how you're doing it rubs me the wrong way."

It's kind of how I feel about trying to take on smug atheists. Those assholes generally bug the shit out of me, but it's just not fucking worth it to start an argument when we're largely in philosophical agreement about the what, just not the how (to go about presenting our views).

i've undergone a similar process of adaptation.

i've never generally liked the idea of isms; as soon as a person starts using nouns to qualify their morality, i can't help but feel a little uneasy. that's not to say i don't understand or condone social movements, but there's something binary, adversarial and ultimately limiting which gets introduced when people start assimilating shared beliefs in to a common identity.

[Steve Contra]

PS mojo: Oh, sorry.  Maybe you could explain the ways women ought to talk about gender issues, for their own benefit?

What's the most effective way to deal with a bully? Pop Culture says, don't be the kid who takes the long way home. But confront the bully punch him in the nose, send him home crying. And that will be the end of it.

In reality, that might be true for you, but generally, that kid either has several issues at home or have some really out of whack values instilled in him from his parents.

Or both.

So it won't stop the moment you "Dominate" him. Its a vicious cycle that just goes and goes and goes.

So, I've been with Big Brothers and Sisters now for 5 years or so and for the last year been working at their resource center on weekends for kids (doesn't need to be a Little) to come in and talk about stuff.

Quite a good number of these kids are homosexual ranging in the ages of 13-17, mostly 13.

Knowing I would counsel a good number of them, the training I got mostly centered on "Instill these kids with a sense of pride in self and awareness that there will be people in the world that don't accept them and they may not be able to change that."

So they ALL come in with bully attacks, mental, physical, whatever.

And the advice I give each and every one of them is, "Don't feel bad about yourself, feel bad about the people attacking you."

Follow ups have been good, some have even sort of befriended their bully, while some just let it bounce off.

As corny as it sounds, the most effective method for these kinds of thing is exposition instead of explosion.

Its not a war, you don't have to choose sides.

Thankfully, there were people in that GAF thread who just didn't understand what all the lingo was but wanted to know. The fact that people want to know is a good sign.

We're in a really REALLY weird age of society now where people outside of societal norms are coming out but you still have people who have lifetimes of conservative training under their belt.

They won't come around with you attacking them on twitter. You just let them be and hope they come around, and if they don't they don't.

And its just WAY too easy for people on the internet to gang up on people and say "NO YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE EVIL!" without letting them say their piece.

Gabe isn't doing the best job himself, but the whole thing can be handled better.

Just don't go to PAX, don't visit their site, that's it.

Nah, people who hold considerable sway and whose opinions are closely watched need to be told to fuck off when they say stupid shit.  I'm not even sure why a shitty flash artist has needed to wade into this several times except to prove he's a dick (which he is).

[Philip Cardgage]

Maybe its different on a scale this much larger, I don't know.

But its a fundamental principal that hate breeds hate, so someone has to be the better person here eventually.

Everyone has the right to be hurt and offended.

But if someone said something to you that hurt you, would you find it more effective to tell them it hurt you or to call them a piece of shit?

I don't know, I just don't take well to anyone shining up their pitchfork.

Anwyays, seems he's apologized?

[Raban]

I can't think of any reason an internet anonymous would ever choose to "be the better person"

[Steve Contra]

Penny Arcade has a habit of doubling down when called out on their bullshit.  They say something that offends people, and then they go and revel in it to the delight of their fans until it becomes too much for them and they back down.  And yes, it's an issue of scale.  They're not two random guys on the internet, they run a huge business that wields considerable sway and who frequently editorialize on what goes in the industry.

[Philip Cardgage]

Yeah, I don't expect them to either.

[Human Snorenado]

I think in a situation where all parties are adults, and one party is in a position of some power, just forgiving them and moving on with your life isn't enough.  Because if it's a systemic problem, you have to fight it eventually.  Standing up and saying, "this shit is not ok, and you're a bad person for being this way" has to be acceptable and encouraged for people in situations like that.

I mean fuck.  It's not like I'm saying there should be no offensive things in video games.  I love the Saints Row games more than just about anybody, and there's some really raunchy shit in those games.

What I think I'm saying is that in the industry, people who act like this in a public (or private, when it's a case of someone discriminating against another person) setting, that person needs to feel the wrath of repercussion.

[Philip Cardgage]

But this power comes from the people, doesn't it?

I think people would naturally wander from institutions that support things they are against or vice versa. At least, I'd hope they would.

It is a grey area though.

You can't exactly just walk away from the government, and I really think support for gay marriage really did help it start becoming legal in the US.

And I don't think people should be muzzled, but there's a better way to handle this.

Maybe its too Utopian of a hope.

[Human Snorenado]

But this power comes from the people, doesn't it?

I think people would naturally wander from institutions that support things they are against or vice versa. At least, I'd hope they would.

That worked fuck awesome for segregation and shit

[Steve Youngblood]

Penny Arcade has a habit of doubling down when called out on their bullshit.  They say something that offends people, and then they go and revel in it to the delight of their fans until it becomes too much for them and they back down.  And yes, it's an issue of scale.  They're not two random guys on the internet, they run a huge business that wields considerable sway and who frequently editorialize on what goes in the industry.

Yeah. It's hard to feel sorry for someone and empathize that they might be the victim of people that are just way too eager to exercise righteous indignation when it's clear that Gabe is just being a twat. I'm not unwilling to consider that some on the pro-trans rights side might be a little too overzealous in terms of framing honest mistakes as bigotry, but Gabe isn't some uninitiated newb to this conversation. He knows what he's doing, and as such -- and I promise that this isn't motivated by offense or outrage -- he should just apologize and shut the fuck up. It's a stupid fight to pick.

[pilonv1]

I knew there was a reason I didn't get a ticket to PAX AUS

[Eel O'Brian]

I think that PA dude has borderline personality disorder, and in my (limited) experience people like that don't ever really give ground or admit being in the wrong, they just shift tactics or dig trenches and hunker down in their persecution bunkers. He'll always be like that because he sees any attention as a form of power. In dealing with that specific type it probably is best to disengage, you're just banging your head against a wall. Dickwolves tee shirts, etc.

[Rufus]

Maybe its too Utopian of a hope.

No, it's naive. You can't zen your way through a brick wall of stupidity, especially not when you're a minority. You're going to get ignored, belittled, disadvantaged or even beat down.

If Mike Krahulik feels that he needs to double down and offend people further over what started as idiotic semantic footstomping then so be it. Being in the public eye however, the reaction to his insensitivity is naturally going to be harsher than to that of the average idiot. I think it's only appropriate for people who hold more sway over what others feel comfortable to say to also catch more shit for it.

[Don Flamenco]

Twitter's not a great medium for nuanced discussion, but it can be a GREAT medium for getting all up in the grills of the e-famous.  Not like he was trying to have a respectful, mutual exchange of ideas anyway.

He says stupid shit on twitter, he gets flamed on Twitter.  All in the game.

Sure, it's a free country and I'd be giving up lots of great Donald Trump burns if all twitter drama were dissipated.  But it's an unstoppable force (people wanting to prove a guy wrong/call him out) meeting the immovable object (guy who said dumb shit in the first place.)  Like, just because you have the opportunity to get in on someone and expose their stupidity doesn't mean it's the opportune time and place to do it.  And I have no idea when/where that is on the internet or how to do it, so i'll just shut up now.

[Positive Touch]

^thanks

if youre the person being shit on, theres a pretty good chance you dont get any recourse besides places like twitter. white dudes have pretty much everything on lock around here, and we're not giving an inch without a long, pathetic, embarrassing fight. 

NO ONE is stopping these fucks (or most any white dude) from making anything they want or saying anything they want. hell, they can even still get rich as fuck off it. the only backlash they usually have to deal with is the people theyre shitting on criticizing and insulting them. THATS IT. but when you have millions of dicks that have been spoiled since birth and have never really had to deal with any kind of consequences to their actions, this is what you get. straight, middle-class white dudes acting like we're the most victimized people on the planet and boo hoo why wont these asshole be nice to us.

if you feel persecuted because people are being mean to you because you acted like and asshole, then please log off your computer and put a damn gun in your mouth.

[Positive Touch]

oh  and almost forgot:

[Steve Contra]

^thanks

if youre the person being shit on, theres a pretty good chance you dont get any recourse besides places like twitter. white dudes have pretty much everything on lock around here, and we're not giving an inch without a long, pathetic, embarrassing fight. 

NO ONE is stopping these fucks (or most any white dude) from making anything they want or saying anything they want. hell, they can even still get rich as fuck off it. the only backlash they usually have to deal with is the people theyre shitting on criticizing and insulting them. THATS IT. but when you have millions of dicks that have been spoiled since birth and have never really had to deal with any kind of consequences to their actions, this is what you get. straight, middle-class white dudes acting like we're the most victimized people on the planet and boo hoo why wont these asshole be nice to us.

if you feel persecuted because people are being mean to you because you acted like and asshole, then please log off your computer and put a damn gun in your mouth.

It shouldn't be the responsibility of the underclass to "toughen up" it should be the responsibility of the majority to stop acting like cocksuckers.

[Raban]

That won't ever happen, the first thing you sacrifice to become a cocksucker is your sense of personal responsibility.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Thw only thing one should do after crossing the line is say im sorry

[Cindi Mayweather]

jesus christ, this morning my tits hurt and were stinging raw. Fuck you Mike Kralaualdfu;hik. I will rub my extremely feminized and size decreased limp dick all of your FACE.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Is your dick shrinking?

 I finally have a bigger dick then a black man

[Steve Contra]

Fuck you Mike Kralaualdfu;hik. I will rub my extremely feminized and size decreased limp dick all of your FACE.

[Steve Contra]

I finally have a bigger dick then a black man

[Cindi Mayweather]

Is your dick shrinking?

 I finally have a bigger dick then a black man

 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I finally have a bigger dick than a black woman.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

take what I can get

[close]

[Cindi Mayweather]

Kotaku ripped off my thread at neogaf about skin tone in Animal Crossing and I STILL CANNOT CHANGE MY SKIN TONE WITHOUT HAVING A "TAN".

[Cerveza mas fina]

Ive reported my own post for sexism