Let's just get out there and say it: Trump has finally gone full ******

[BisMarckie]

edit: whatever

[shosta]

The U.S. is an archipelago of little dictatorships, they're called private businesses in right to work states. That he himself may appear to have dictatorial tendencies is more a reflection of that than it is fascism.

I don't know about this. He clearly has a racial and cultural agenda that goes well beyond what the business class desires from the federal government. And given what his base wants, his desperation, and as his losses mount he'll lean into those things more and more. Like this political show of force over a nonexistent issue (anarchist violence).

Ultimately Trump is a weak man and won't do anything when he loses. What matters more is what he leaves behind - the corpus luteum of his administration. He was like smelling salts for the slumbering barbarism of American society.

[Kara]

Even the haute bourgeoisie prey on minorities, I don't think there is meaningful opposition to Trump's racial agenda at the top. Multiple industries here (private prisons, hospitality, meat processing, dumping via app, and so on) even thrive on it.

I don't know what his cultural agenda is beyond being a Fox News grandpa.

[VomKriege]

Ultimately I think a way out is finding a new modulation of politics. I don't know if it's switching back to a more parliament based regime or moving to more direct democracy because new technologies maybe make that old canard more viable than it used to be. I don't think devolving everything back to local level is the milk and honey solution to fix problems but shorter, sustainable circuits & al. have been trending for a while in other domains of thoughts.

Because otherwise I'm not seeing anywhere any third way / centrist / liberal really turning the tide, at best slowing for a while the drift to the far right.

Finding the will to change the political system requires an independence of thought and a willingness to break with the existing order of things that people just don't have yet. But with the way things are, if they do get to that point in their political maturation, they're not going to try to reform the United States, they'll try burning it down.

I think the USA is kinda in a bad place between the fetishism for the original texts of the founders and the federal clusterfuck. Calls for a 6th Republic in France (and a new constitution draft) are far fetched but in the realm of possible, we changed regimes... 15 times (?) in 230 years. Citizens could certainly come to it if things get rowdy enough. Short of an actual civil war, it's hard to imagine Americans embracing that. People would die (or kill, I guess) for this on your side of the pond.

[Stoney Mason]

I think the USA is kinda in a bad place between the fetishism for the original texts of the founders

It's definitely an issue when you pretend that a small agrarian society from hundreds of years ago had the solutions for modern problems but that is just another symptom of the real issue. The real problem are literally the people themselves. They elect bad leaders who enact bad policies and then are surprised when bad things happen. The political smarts of the average voter create a system where real change is almost impossible. When politicians know this and generally know there are no real repercussions for doing a shitty or fradulent job, the circle of crap is complete.

People get mad at Trump and they should because he is a truly reprehensible trash human, but half of the country thought he was the best man to do the job. That sin is far worse and more damning than whatever Trump himself has done. That dumbness stays whenever Trump leaves whether its in 4 years or this fall.

[shosta]

Let's be real. There is no real intellectual engagement with the American revolution. It's just a setpiece for the mythology the nation.

[Positive Touch]

much as i hate the way it makes me sound like some right-wing christian from the 90s, i think a lot of our problems are in fact cultural. we have millions of people that vote on regressive policies solely because they don't want others to have them. so many are suffering from debt and poverty but won't back measures to alleviate that for various (stupid) reasons. and we've got millions of people that are just a-o.k. with preventable deaths being a part of our everyday culture. no matter what changes we go through we have to turn all that shit around.

[Positive Touch]

Let's be real. There is no real intellectual engagement with the American revolution. It's just a setpiece for the mythology the nation.

as with a million other things it's just a cheap way to give false legitimacy to whatever modern bullshit policies and hateful ideologies are being pushed

[Cindi Mayweather]

America won't change unless there's a war or a cataclysmic event that forces change and given Coronavirus should have been that cataclysmic event that forces the country to work together, I think we are heading for war. In a few years time, its time scale increasingly dependent on the outcome of the 2020 election, there will be small scale level of violence where conservatives and those that disagree with them cross with each other. . So mostly suburbs. This doesn't mean all out war, but there will be small cases of violence. It'll probably take the assassination of a high key politician on a specific side for there to build into actual war.

[ToxicAdam]

I don't know about this. He clearly has a racial and cultural agenda that goes well beyond what the business class desires from the federal government.

You're giving him too much credit, he's not that thought out. His only real agenda was undoing what Obama did. Anything above and beyond that is just the usual trappings of growing up in 1950/60's America as a wealthy, white person.

 

[EchoRin]

The political system is US is so fucked. How is it possible you only have creepy uncle Joe and dictator idiot Trump as choices?

Both seem fucking terrible to me.

Don't worry. In 4 years we'll get to decide between Kanye West and Kid Rock.

[Cindi Mayweather]

Can we stop with the far left whinging and just change the thread title from fascist to ****** to dictator to appease them so they can shut the fuck up?

[Pissy F Benny]

America won't change unless there's a war or a cataclysmic event that forces change and given Coronavirus should have been that cataclysmic event that forces the country to work together, I think we are heading for war. In a few years time, its time scale increasingly dependent on the outcome of the 2020 election, there will be small scale level of violence where conservatives and those that disagree with them cross with each other. . So mostly suburbs. This doesn't mean all out war, but there will be small cases of violence. It'll probably take the assassination of a high key politician on a specific side for there to build into actual war.

ngl i was/still am half expecting the trump saga to end with him getting assassinated, and now the the q crowd are losing faith in him

[Cindi Mayweather]

America won't change unless there's a war or a cataclysmic event that forces change and given Coronavirus should have been that cataclysmic event that forces the country to work together, I think we are heading for war. In a few years time, its time scale increasingly dependent on the outcome of the 2020 election, there will be small scale level of violence where conservatives and those that disagree with them cross with each other. . So mostly suburbs. This doesn't mean all out war, but there will be small cases of violence. It'll probably take the assassination of a high key politician on a specific side for there to build into actual war.

ngl i was/still am half expecting the trump saga to end with him getting assassinated, and now the the q crowd are losing faith in him

If he gets assassinated then he becomes a Martyr and Trumpism lives on and will become more violent. It's the last thing you want. You want to defeat him legally through legal channels via voting or his movement will grow bigger.

What do you mean q crowd are losing faith in him? I don't follow them.

[Kara]

This:

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1285690246466801671

[Cindi Mayweather]

This:

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1285690246466801671

I'm well aware of that but Trump voters okay anything and everything he says so there's zero reason to think that would impact them in any manner nor is it confirmation they're losing faith in him neither. It's purely theoretical. We are talking about the same people quiet on federal forces storming American cities after years of totalitarian government takeover theories. Hell, they were protesting masks as dictatorship just a few months ago. Why would anyone think that Trump saying that will result in them losing faith in him given the last, oh say, five years?

[Pissy F Benny]

America won't change unless there's a war or a cataclysmic event that forces change and given Coronavirus should have been that cataclysmic event that forces the country to work together, I think we are heading for war. In a few years time, its time scale increasingly dependent on the outcome of the 2020 election, there will be small scale level of violence where conservatives and those that disagree with them cross with each other. . So mostly suburbs. This doesn't mean all out war, but there will be small cases of violence. It'll probably take the assassination of a high key politician on a specific side for there to build into actual war.

ngl i was/still am half expecting the trump saga to end with him getting assassinated, and now the the q crowd are losing faith in him

If he gets assassinated then he becomes a Martyr and Trumpism lives on and will become more violent. It's the last thing you want. You want to defeat him legally through legal channels via voting or his movement will grow bigger.

What do you mean q crowd are losing faith in him? I don't follow them.

the swamp remains undrained, some of those people are catching on

i don't think trump being killed would be good at all, theres your civil war catalyst right there, but these are crazy times and america has a lot of lunatics with access to weapons

[Kara]

I was speaking of Q in particular. I'm sure they'll square the circle on that comment eventually, conspiracy theorists always do.

[Cindi Mayweather]

America won't change unless there's a war or a cataclysmic event that forces change and given Coronavirus should have been that cataclysmic event that forces the country to work together, I think we are heading for war. In a few years time, its time scale increasingly dependent on the outcome of the 2020 election, there will be small scale level of violence where conservatives and those that disagree with them cross with each other. . So mostly suburbs. This doesn't mean all out war, but there will be small cases of violence. It'll probably take the assassination of a high key politician on a specific side for there to build into actual war.

ngl i was/still am half expecting the trump saga to end with him getting assassinated, and now the the q crowd are losing faith in him

If he gets assassinated then he becomes a Martyr and Trumpism lives on and will become more violent. It's the last thing you want. You want to defeat him legally through legal channels via voting or his movement will grow bigger.

What do you mean q crowd are losing faith in him? I don't follow them.

the swamp remains undrained, some of those people are catching on

i don't think trump being killed would be good at all, theres your civil war catalyst right there, but these are crazy times and america has a lot of lunatics with access to weapons

Do you have any evidence they're losing faith in him besides anecdotes?

[VomKriege]

I don't think the Q people are really losing faith in him. They're getting more restless and impatient however. Most of them will do some Olympics level gymnastic to absolve him (especially if he is voted out) but they will lash out at something, the supposed cabal or the people who "failed" Trump.

I think the ramp up for violence was probably on its way, Trump or not. Some people were already way into delusional territory because of Obama existing. Trump certainly accelerated things.

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't think the Q people are really losing faith in him. They're getting more restless and impatient however. Most of them will do some Olympics level gymnastic to absolve him (especially if he is voted out) but they will lash out at something, the supposed cabal or the people who "failed" Trump.

I think the ramp up for violence was probably on its way, Trump or not. Some people were already way into delusional territory because of Obama existing. Trump certainly accelerated things.

I agree Trump pushed it full steam ahead and furthermore, I feel Covid accelerated violent culture war stuff by at least 5-10 years in a 5 month timespan.

[Kara]

Where's hungrynoob when you need him.

[Stro]

He's searching for the truth

[Nintex]

There was looting in Portland, shootings in New York are up dramatically and local authorities are really dropping the ball.
I also don't think sending Chad into Chicago is going to be much of an improvement. But what else are they going to do?
Those numbers are Trumps problem now. His opponent will hit him with those crime statistics.

As the White House people said: "no more woke shit from Jared"
Trump has no ideology himself so it all depends on who he is listening to at that particular point in time and we've come at a point that Hope Hicks and Mark Meadows seem to be giving him ideas.
Also don't forget that with Stone, Flynn etc. off the hook they're probably in close contact with Trump as well.

[shosta]

He's searching for the truth

like season 8 of x files

[Joe Molotov]

Where's hungrynoob when you need him.

I blame the cowardly Mandark.

http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=45708.msg2463139#msg2463139

[Stro]

There was looting in Portland, shootings in New York are up dramatically and local authorities are really dropping the ball.
I also don't think sending Chad into Chicago is going to be much of an improvement. But what else are they going to do?
Those numbers are Trumps problem now. His opponent will hit him with those crime statistics.

As the White House people said: "no more woke shit from Jared"
Trump has no ideology himself so it all depends on who he is listening to at that particular point in time and we've come at a point that Hope Hicks and Mark Meadows seem to be giving him ideas.
Also don't forget that with Stone, Flynn etc. off the hook they're probably in close contact with Trump as well.

Bro, shut the fuck up

[VomKriege]

Also better accept now that if voted out, Trump will probably be richer, live to 104 and never ever shut the fuck up.

[Great Rumbler]

Where's hungrynoob when you need him.

Do we really, though?

[BisMarckie]

Where's hungrynoob when you need him.

Do we really, though?

Not if Molly‘s Fruit Loops was back 

[jakefromstatefarm]

late to the party on this one but critical support to comrade kara for coming out of occultation to smack benji for trying to smuggle in a nolan chart analysis when ostensibly just calling balls and strikes (mandark chipped in too) and also bismarckie, whose deutschchauvinismus has always been more annoying than anything any dutchman’s posted on this board. rip in power until next time the tax code comes up, breh

[Human Snorenado]

this was the most worthless discussion possible on this topic; good job all

The Benji Difference™

[curly]

Also the fascism thing is kinda sterile and academic. I get the impulse to be a pedant but can we all agree democratic checks and balance (among other things) eroded significantly under Trump ?

This topic tends towards inanity by virtue of the fact that it treats fascism as something begotten, not made, which is to say only reproducing itself in a like manner. Analyzing past fascist movements is instructive, but ignoring their developments since then is frankly not very dialectical. (This of course excludes the people who use such discussions to show off their latest strawmen for sale.) Consequently the definitions that get bandied about either come to resemble an amorphous blob (if evolutions are contemplated) or are hopelessly out of date.

My very rough way of thinking about it inspired mostly by reading Paxton is that there are the classical fascist states (Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy) who are clearly closely linked in the course of their development and how they were structured, are borne out of specific historical circumstances, and are far more similar to each other than any other historical example, and an attitudinal fascism embodied in thin blue line bumper stickers, MAGA hats, and immigrant bashing which can be found where ever your local petite-bourgeiosie congregate. 

[BisMarckie]

late to the party on this one but critical support to comrade kara for coming out of occultation to smack benji for trying to smuggle in a nolan chart analysis when ostensibly just calling balls and strikes (mandark chipped in too) and also bismarckie, whose deutschchauvinismus has always been more annoying than anything any dutchman’s posted on this board. rip in power until next time the tax code comes up, breh(Image removed from quote.)

Just where does that animosity come from?

[daemon]

From an outsider perspective: the whole country is a mess (which one isn't at this point in time) and it involves every party. Trump is the easy scapegoat because the guy can barely function on key moments.

And the alternative is a man that sniffs people like they're flowers.

edit: at this point I believe you're just voting to put the person who's gonna act like a fool on TV while shit keeps hitting the fan.

[OnlyRegret]

late to the party on this one but critical support to comrade kara for coming out of occultation to smack benji for trying to smuggle in a nolan chart analysis when ostensibly just calling balls and strikes (mandark chipped in too) and also bismarckie, whose deutschchauvinismus has always been more annoying than anything any dutchman’s posted on this board. rip in power until next time the tax code comes up, breh(Image removed from quote.)

Just where does that animosity come from?

Strange, normally it is just women who draw his ire!

[thisismyusername]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

MSNBC has been covering this for days, on every hour and show of the day 

The protests, maybe.

The kidnappings by the feds, lol no.

Oh wait, someone already pointed that out:

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

MSNBC has been covering this for days, on every hour and show of the day 

That doesn’t disprove TIMU’s assertion that the news isn’t covering the federal kidnappings

You

[Stro]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

MSNBC has been covering this for days, on every hour and show of the day 

The protests, maybe.

The kidnappings by the feds, lol no.

Oh wait, someone already pointed that out:

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

MSNBC has been covering this for days, on every hour and show of the day 

That doesn’t disprove TIMU’s assertion that the news isn’t covering the federal kidnappings

You

Yes, the kidnapping by feds and the goon squad without badges or ID and what departments they might or might not belong to and the legality of it all. They've been talking about it all week on both news and opinion shows. I've also seen it covered on CNN.

[Mandark]

There are stories referencing federal agents in Portland throwing people into unmarked vans from CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, NYT, ABC News, and CBS News.

[BisMarckie]

This of course excludes the people who use such discussions to show off their latest strawmen for sale.) Consequently the definitions that get bandied about either come to resemble an amorphous blob (if evolutions are contemplated) or are hopelessly out of date.

I am sometimes an overly dogmatic person, this comes with the territory of having gone to law school I guess and working in that sphere ever since. I found Ernst Fraenkel's "dual state" approach the most comprehensive in which he distinguishes two states within a fascist or more precisely the early national-socialistic (some later interpretations also applied this to the Soviet Union and its Satellite states) state: The Normative and the Prerogative State. The interdependancy of normative and prerogative state means that only productive members of society enjoy the protection of the law, who is or isn't productive is determined a priori by a Rousseauan concept of the common good. Non productive forces are outlaws fully exposed to the prerogative state, effectively eliminating ius cogens.
If you apply this to America, you come to the conclusion that America was either always fascist if you take the Native American genocide and/or racial segregation and slavery into account  or that the Trump administration hasn't tipped the scales in a meaningful way that you can call post 2017 America fascist, but can't feasibly apply that moniker to previous administrations.

[BIONIC]

Caca poopoo

[VomKriege]

There are stories referencing federal agents in Portland throwing people into unmarked vans from CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, NYT, ABC News, and CBS News.

More about that, for anyone interested :
https://m.soundcloud.com/trueanonpod/dh-ass

[BisMarckie]

Caca poopoo

Being called deutsch-chauvinist, even if done jokingly, hurt me more than I would care to admit

[VomKriege]

Calvinist-Chauvinists 

[Rufus]

Caca poopoo

Being called deutsch-chauvinist, even if done jokingly, hurt me more than I would care to admit

Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Google translate makes a hash of this, but it's pretty good.

[close]

[BisMarckie]

I will compensate for that by being overly Polish-chauvinist. That’s easier anyway. Just translate everything coming from the PIS party..

Probably no need to translate anyway, they need to get their message out to the Polonia voting bloc in the Anglosphere in some form.

[BisMarckie]

[

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Google translate makes a hash of this, but it's pretty good.

[close]

the world should recover from the german being

[VomKriege]

Aber warum auch nicht, alles ist heute spielerei.

[Cindi Mayweather]

I've been pretty out of things, what is it this time?

Federal Agents kidnapping protestors in Portland (and Seattle IIRC). I haven't been paying too much attention to it since the news is BARELY covering it, if ever.

Lmao if you read the news no fucking way, it's all over the internet and media coverage: either printed or online. If anything conservative media is the one that's quiet because they are more concerned with Cheney breaking rank. So are you admitting to being a Fox watcher?

[thisismyusername]

Lmao if you read the news no fucking way, it's all over the internet and media coverage: either printed or online. If anything conservative media is the one that's quiet because they are more concerned with Cheney breaking rank. So are you admitting to being a Fox watcher?

More like non-watcher.

Google News has nothing about the protests any time I check. Might be personalized, but even then the times I check is incognito/non-logged in. So 🤷‍♂️

[Mandark]

I just loaded Google News on an incognito window and Portland's on the main page twice, under Headlines and US.

[Tasty]

I honestly find it annoying how Google News prioritizes political news and COVID information. There's no way to opt out of seeing "Story #1: Trump (or Biden) does something else today" when opening the app every time.

I chose my topics, just show me those.

The web version lets you bookmark the "For You" tab at least...

Edit- "For You" on mobile has all that shit though.



Five stories about stupid bullshit I don't care about (and a nondismissable COVID banner linking me to other shit I don't care about) before I can get to my selected topics.

Edit 2- Also I somehow hadn't removed the New York Post from my possible news sources. Or Bloomberg. Fixed.

[Pissy F Benny]

having a news source other than the tweets filler posts on here

[Tasty]

having a news source other than the tweets filler posts on here

Pretty close to giving up on the news altogether.

[BIONIC]

Caca poopoo

Being called deutsch-chauvinist, even if done jokingly, hurt me more than I would care to admit

Have your feefees hurt by nerds who regularly jerk it to little anime girls brehs 

[Van Cruncheon]

double penetrationpost

fuck i'm senile, page lifealert

[Van Cruncheon]

there's fascist elements in modern american political discourse, but the actual tendency seems to be towards oligarchy and thus feudalism. from feudalism is capitalism born, and so it returns, now with technopriests. hell, there seems to be a desire among the peasants for a king, so maybe we'll get a monarchy out of it. democracy and the republic are rhetorical contrivances that gave us 200 years of ennobling sentiment to try and rally around, but murka was born from and with a love of feudalism, and that has slowly eroded our high-falutin' ideals.

capitalism, communism, libertarianism, fascism: all are too academic for the brood-creatures and mud-dwellers of the masses to internalize. nothing with any ideological complexity can form a legitimate tendency, despite all the clever rationales of the twitterati. so many words to paper over a nasty truth: people are, in aggregate, fucking tribal and stupid -- and the masses, even slightly freed from the cognitive terror of education, push for lords and zaddies to set and enforce comfortable norms. best you can hope for is a brief alignment between ideology and tribal pressures.

also, secret police forces are hardly the exclusive province of fascists. i mean, it's not like our own police forces didn't originate in the shadow patrols of the oligarchic, quasi-feudal south.

[TakingBackSunday]

that's a lot of twenty dollar words, drinky 

you just hate freedom

[Van Cruncheon]

i kinda do

[Van Cruncheon]

srsly, though, to be a fascist leader, trump would need to have a coherent nationalist epistemology to express it under. he can barely articulate his own name. but being a king just requires an assertion of droit de seigneur, which even his dumbass can do if he has the might to back it up.

dude's too stupid to be fascist. he just thinks he's supposed to rule, and he has just enough peasants, priests, soldiers, and mercantilists to back him up to make it happen.