THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Himu on September 10, 2007, 07:23:39 PM
-
So I've been passing around my Clockwork Orange dvd to all my friends and now they all think I'm a sadistic freak. They all say the movie is too weird, didn't bother to finish because of the first half, and all agree that the movie just wasn't for them and question why I like and bought a movie such as that.
I'd love to see their expressions after viewing Videodrone, Crash, and Blue Velvet.
-
they would have probably preferred to read the book.
-
what do you expect man, it's florida.
:bow clockwork orange.
you should have them watch bully if they think clockwork is disturbing
-
I mean, I know the images in Clockwork Orange are pretty crazy stuff, but the movie clearly does them in such a cartoonish way that it's hard to take the movie seriously. Furthermore, the movie is obviously a story told through the eyes of Alex. Alex is clearly insane. Things like harassing homeless old men and raping women for fun would certainly look entertaining to an insane maniac.
What does this say about me if I like a movie like CO? Or does this merely prove how narrow minded most people are?
-
what do you expect man, it's florida.
:bow clockwork orange.
you should have them watch bully if they think clockwork is disturbing
Most of the people I hang out with aren't from Florida
-
then i think you said it best:
does this merely prove how narrow minded most people are?
*nods in agreement*
-
What does this say about me if I like a movie like CO? Or does this merely prove how narrow minded most people are?
I think it's clear that you've become Japanese on the inside. It's kinda scary that you will no longer be stimulated by consensual sex.
-
Smooth: When are we going to go out? I'll show how much I love consensual sex.
-
A. the book outright tells you he's insane.
B. the ending was taken out in the movie version.
-
Jesus Christ Nintendho. I clearly said they didn't bother watching the rest at the halfway point.
-
What does this say about me if I like a movie like CO? Or does this merely prove how narrow minded most people are?
Black people don't understand art.
-
Well, some of them weren't black.
-
Hispanics too.
-
Jesus Christ Nintendho. I clearly said they didn't bother watching the rest at the halfway point.
I know, I'm saying two things that make them misinterpret the movie.
-
I really like this movie... so your friends are probably in the right.
-
they are agreeing with the author of the book.
-
The movie doesn't say he's insane but it's quite obvious from his acts alone. If you need to be told Alex is insane, even after viewing the part where he get home and day dreams dreadful thoughts, then I don't know what to say
-
it's deeper than that. in the book you read his thought process and can tell more about what he's thinking. seeing a bunch of violence and weird slang isn't exactly mindblowing in a movie. I personally don't get the praise for the book's slang but it's obvious that the book told the story better.
-
B-B-But its kubrick, and has lots of gory sex and sexy violence.
-
Kubrick owns. stfu.
-
2001 was pretty awesome
-
Kubrick sounds like he's a fucking asshole (even if you liked his movies). Burgess said he sucked (even though he laid the blame on the missing ending on his american editors) and one of the CO actors said he was an asshole. FMJ was his only movie I saw and it wasn't anything special.
-
FMJ sucks Platoons gigantic penis.
-
FMJ = best Vietnam movie
-
Kubrick sounds like he's a fucking asshole (even if you liked his movies). Burgess said he sucked (even though he laid the blame on the missing ending on his american editors) and one of the CO actors said he was an asshole. FMJ was his only movie I saw and it wasn't anything special.
And where can I read about this?
I could care less about directors' personalities as long as they bring me good movies. David Lynch is insane, but he makes good movies.
-
FMJ was pretty emo gay
-
FMJ = best Vietnam movie
Half of FMJ isn't even about vietnam. The other half is boring.
-
The other half is awesome and you suck.
Me love you long time.
No more boom boom for this baby-san.
-
I agree with FoC. FMJ sucks, Platoon rox.
-
Full Metal Jacket is easily one of the worst Kubrick efforts. Very average.
However, Clockwork Orange is totally :bow :bow :bow
Thing is, it's really hard to sell Kubrick movies to the masses, especially younger people.
-
FMJ is one of his weaker efforts but nothing average. Tsk tsk.
When I think of one of his worst, I think of Lolita and Eyes Wide Shut.
-
I'd take Eyes Wide Shut over FMJ. It's a narrow win, though. FMJ is half really really boring, and while I don't think EWS keeps my eyes glued open, it's at least consistent the whole way through.
-
I don't even remember what the fuck happened in Eyes Wide Shut, even at the time when I saw it, and I think I still liked it better than FMJ.
-
I think FMJ is pretty consistent. The second half isn't as good as the first, but it manages to stay interesting due to the dialogue and cool situations (the sniper!).
-
The sniper portion was about the only part that kept me attentive. Even the private pyle bullshit couldn't do that to me.
-
How could you not like Private Pyle portion? :(
I'd still rather watch FMJ than Barry Lyndon. I love Barry and it's better than FMJ, but it's not anything I could watch at any given moment. I could watch FMJ on most days no matter my mood because I find a lot of it to be hilarious.
-
Now you're just talking crazy.
-
Hell no. Barry Lyndon is quite long, and unlike 2001, the time doesn't fly by when watching it.
For 6 months this year I watched 2001 almost every weekend.
-
Barry Lyndon is long, but unlike Full Metal Jacket, it's a great movie.
-
And I said Barry's better too. But it really isn't anything I can pop in at anytime either.
-
I turned off ACO within the first 20 minutes. :-\
And I haven't seen FMJ. Platoon rocks though.
-
And where can I read about this?
I could care less about directors' personalities as long as they bring me good movies. David Lynch is insane, but he makes good movies.
read what?
and this is MEANT as a book. it could have been a lot better than it was as a movie though.
-
I remember when I first watched ACO with a friend of mine. During the opening scene I felt kind of appalled and disgusted and he was laughing uproariously.
We paused it for a bit after that scene and discussed it. My argument at the time was that that's kind of the point of the movie. Some people will find it appalling and others will find it hilarious. Its sort of a barometer of your own personal depravity.
I think its a good movie and I made it through the whole thing without getting sick or whatever.
A. the book outright tells you he's insane.
B. the ending was taken out in the movie version.
Which version of the book did you read? The original or the American? They end in different places.
We also read this book in my Arts and Letters class, but it was more for an analysis of dystopian future settings.
-
Which version of the book did you read? The original or the American? They end in different places.
We also read this book in my Arts and Letters class, but it was more for an analysis of dystopian future settings.
the re-released american version that had the missing chapter. in the beginning of it, burgess for about two pages says how the american editors fucked his book up and how the movie was based on that version.
-
Himmy - im sorry you know repressive people who would judge your personality or disposition because of media you may like to vide. I personally am bored of Clockwork ORange (my generation played it out big time), but I would be annoyed at some cunt thinking its outlandishly sadistic and a representation that im an anal date rapist/murdurer...
Now a days its the music I like - I really just never share anything about my personal preferences around professional peers....Just because I like Coil doesnt mean im an a egyptian rat fukker.
-
Himmy - im sorry you know repressive people who would judge your personality or disposition because of media you may like to vide. I personally am bored of Clockwork ORange (my generation played it out big time), but I would be annoyed at some cunt thinking its outlandishly sadistic and a representation that im an anal date rapist/murdurer...
You go on...anal dates?
-
lol, did I just see someone put Platoon in a sentence that could actually make the movie look good?
-
Clockwork Orange is fucking great.
-
And where can I read about this?
I could care less about directors' personalities as long as they bring me good movies. David Lynch is insane, but he makes good movies.
read what?
read about kubrick being a jackhole
-
barry lyndon is mad slept on. it doesn't even feel that long because it's so engaging. imo, kubrick's best film next to 2001.
fmj is fucking great you assholes. eyes wide shut is a masterpiece as well.
and yes, kubrick was a pain in the ass director, but that's what made his films so great --- he had a shit ton of control and was so anal about everything. the definition of auteur.
-
So I've been passing around my Clockwork Orange dvd to all my friends and now they all think I'm a sadistic freak. They all say the movie is too weird, didn't bother to finish because of the first half, and all agree that the movie just wasn't for them and question why I like and bought a movie such as that.
I'd love to see their expressions after viewing Videodrone, Crash, and Blue Velvet.
Clockwork Orange is not an easy movie for the average person to digest. It's easy to watch it and dismiss much of the first half as too violent, too sadistic, and simply too much; seems like some chicks would especially be turned off by some scenes.
I thought the film was brilliant. The violence is not to be taken solely on surface value or you won't get the theme of it.
-
Himuro, here's a lesson for college life.
Don't be the guy who pushes his "weird ass" movies on everyone else. Don't judge others for not liking said movies you push on everyone else.
You really don't want to be that guy. I almost became that guy, until my roommate knocked some sense into me.
-
what do you expect man, it's florida.
:bow clockwork orange.
you should have them watch bully if they think clockwork is disturbing
Most of the people I hang out with aren't from Florida
Nobody is from Florida. Florida is where the detritus of humanity collects en masse.
-
lol, did I just see someone put Platoon in a sentence that could actually make the movie look good?
It's more than good. It's the best Vietnam movie that's been made. Deservedly won best picture.
-
lol, did I just see someone put Platoon in a sentence that could actually make the movie look good?
It's more than good. It's the best Vietnam movie that's been made. Deservedly won best picture.
Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also
-
Apocalypse Now is great, but not really about vietnam.
-
oh and just out of curiosity, what's the point of fmj? that boot camp's hard? that being pinned down by a sniper in vietnam is hard? that paying a vietnamese whore $5 is hard?
read about kubrick being a jackhole
I saw it on clockwork orange's wikipedia.
-
Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also
did you watch redux (directors cut)? even better than the original, just the way copolla wanted it (despite the brando drama at the time).
-
Himmy - im sorry you know repressive people who would judge your personality or disposition because of media you may like to vide. I personally am bored of Clockwork ORange (my generation played it out big time), but I would be annoyed at some cunt thinking its outlandishly sadistic and a representation that im an anal date rapist/murdurer...
You go on...anal dates?
No - anal is added on to 'date rapist' to make it more severe...
Kind of like you can have a "mother fucker"
and then you can have a "cock swallowing shit sculpting goat fucking mother fucker"
Get it? anal was added on to supersize date rapist.
-
oh and just out of curiosity, what's the point of fmj? that boot camp's hard? that being pinned down by a sniper in vietnam is hard? that paying a vietnamese whore $5 is hard?
That becoming a soldier makes you lose your identity. It's about dehumanization. The entire movie they praise killing and "being born again hard" but when Joker finally makes his "war face" it shows that he has regressed, not evolved as a better human being. This is why at the end of the movie they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club anthem - a children's song.
Joker is the only character in the entire movie who retains a sense of self and has and identity. He discounts everything in a jokingly manner. "It's just business" But when he finally makes that kill, he still continues to try to stay himself and not become another pawn to CORPS. "I am in a world of shit, yes, but I am alive."
In my opinion, Joker at the end of Full Metal Jacket has totally succumbed to the destructive power of the "ritual" of Parris Island. Pyle, his individuality completely destroyed, shoots himself; Joker, his individuality destroyed, does not shoot himself, but he is effectively dead anyway. His ironic "rebirth" and growth takes on grotesque form ("born again hard") as he is indeed reborn into a new world ("Who's the leader of the club that's made for you and me?") which is marked not by growth, but by child-like and primitive regression ("M-I-C, K-E-Y, M-O-U-S-E.")
A philosopher colleague of thinks that the ending of Full Metal Jacket displays a more advanced state of mind than Clockwork, as if Kubrick has evolved to yet another level. He says that in Clockwork, Kubrick ends the film on a negative note, viewing mankind as stuck in his nihilistic, misanthropic nature; not only impermeable to a totalitarian government, but unable to progress past it. But in Full Metal Jacket, the ending shows Joker as a self-motivated autocrat, still acting of his free will and fighting against the forces trying to de-individualize him. Alex "was cured, all right," but even if the government couldn't "cure him" (i.e. imprint false morals), he never cured himself.
But Joker has cured himself -- he not only suffered through a Ludovico treatment of his own (boot camp, the Marine mentality), but he overcame it to find a reason to live, one that was based on self-actualization (spurred by the murder of the sniper and the death of Cowboy), and the theory that it IS better to be alive (the dead know only one thing:...), and that "I am alive, but I am not afraid." By overcoming his fear, he has accepted the utter meaninglessness of the world, but created his own reasons through combat and violence.
I don't know if I agree with this 'point of view', primarily because I think Joker has succumbed to the same primal, violent instincts Alex has, but also because I think Alex is acting on free will and a fighting stance against meaninglessness, only in his own, "amoral" way. But it made me think, and I wonder what others would say, considering this view -- in the overall context of Kubrick's body of work as a Nietzschean progression to the Overman (from say, 2001 to Full Metal Jacket).
FMJ isn't exactly a good movie to judge based on one viewing imo. It gets better after multiple viewings.
-
Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also
did you watch redux (directors cut)? even better than the original, just the way copolla wanted it (despite the brando drama at the time).
:wag
the redux made me fall asleep. the original cut is the best one, imo.
-
Never seen it. Dont care to. Burn
-
Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also
did you watch redux (directors cut)? even better than the original, just the way copolla wanted it (despite the brando drama at the time).
I've heard some bad things about the Redux. I'm gonna check it out asap
-
That becoming a soldier makes you lose your identity. It's about dehumanization. The entire movie they praise killing and "being born again hard" but when Joker finally makes his "war face" it shows that he has regressed, not evolved as a better human being. This is why at the end of the movie they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club anthem - a children's song.
Joker is the only character in the entire movie who retains a sense of self and has and identity. He discounts everything in a jokingly manner. "It's just business" But when he finally makes that kill, he still continues to try to stay himself and not become another pawn to CORPS. "I am in a world of shit, yes, but I am alive."
That's a lot to assume based on you know, what the movie actually tells you.
-
That becoming a soldier makes you lose your identity. It's about dehumanization. The entire movie they praise killing and "being born again hard" but when Joker finally makes his "war face" it shows that he has regressed, not evolved as a better human being. This is why at the end of the movie they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club anthem - a children's song.
Joker is the only character in the entire movie who retains a sense of self and has and identity. He discounts everything in a jokingly manner. "It's just business" But when he finally makes that kill, he still continues to try to stay himself and not become another pawn to CORPS. "I am in a world of shit, yes, but I am alive."
That's a lot to assume based on you know, what the movie actually tells you.
A lot of movies leave the theme up to the individual. That's what make them great.
-
Redux is awful. Only the scene with Willard & Friends happening upon the French family along the river and some of the ensuing dialogues adds anything to the film. As for the remaining additions, if they aren't totally warping the originals portrayal of Willard, they're superfluous and redundant -- and coupled with some of the pacing problems they present, merely extend the run-time to a nearly intolerable length.
I don't particularly care if it was Coppolla's true vision, it's inferior to the original theatrical version. I should add that, as a huge fan of the movie, I enjoy watching the additionally filmed segments (and they're all absolutely gorgeous), but within context of the film, they largely do nothing but hurt it.
-
A lot of movies leave the theme up to the individual. That's what make them great.
yeah but whether or not the person loses their identity is based on what kind of person they are and what they went through. that's not a theme that you can leave for people to figure out.
In platoon, there's internal dialogue and things to tell you what the character is thinking. while I hate oliver stone and don't think platoon was that good, it was more well-done than FMJ.
-
It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.
-
i liked the bootcamp part more than the part that took place in vietnam.
-
Bud what do you give FMJ i trust your judgement
-
i liked the bootcamp part more than the part that took place in vietnam.
So did I, but I think that they all compliment each other.
-
It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.
yeah it's obvious that's it's message but it doesn't do a good job as a movie.
-
no one ever said Clockwork Orange was any good
-
It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.
yeah it's obvious that's it's message but it doesn't do a good job as a movie.
what? all of this stuff is absolutely subtle
-
Bud what do you give FMJ i trust your judgement
it's been too long since i've seen it the last time, but you should definitely check it out if you haven't yet.
-
Clockwork Orange rocks, Oliver Stone is still balls.
Oliver Stone was pretty great up until 1994-95. After Natural Born Killers he lost it, though. Well, not that NBK is a great movie, either, but I think it's his last truly interesting movie.
Eh, Nixon isn't bad, either, but it's hard not to compare the movie to JFK, so it looks poor in comparison.
-
Full Metal Jacket is a great movie.
-
what? all of this stuff is absolutely subtle
if it was subtle then there'd be more chemistry between the characters to make you then interested in what's going to happen in the story. that's what I'm saying is missing from FMJ.
-
am nintenho, have you ever considered that you might not be cut out to appreciate the subtlety of master artists excelling at their craft? I mean, for chrissakes, you don't even understand Slaughterhouse-Five.
-
my point is that the reason that the vietnam war made soldiers feel like they had no identity was that holy fuck, there was a draft. the movie shows the drill instructor as the one taking away their identity which imo doesn't make sense. sorry if I didn't say that before.
-
the characters lack chemistry but that's the whole point. These are all guys doing their own thing and fighting for their own reasons. Animal Mother does not respect Joker, Cowboy, or Rafterman but he associates with Touchdown and considers him a good friend. This is why he always does shit to "tick" Touchdown off, like take the hooker from him and say nig.ger jokes. He knows that Touchdown is comfortable with it because he knows Mother's simply joking and busting his balls.
Joker and Cowboy are great friends. During the boot camp Joker says,"I'd like to stick my tubesteak into your sister." and Cowboy obliges, because he loves the guy. "What do ya got in return?"
Rafterman only fights because he's the type of drone who thinks that winning the war will give Vietnam "freedom" and pursues getting in the shit, even though he's only a fucking pogue who rarely goes into the action in the first place.
All of this dialogue appears in random places in the stor
y and most people who do not "get" FMJ simply look over them.
Character relationships does not take away from the fact that FMJ is about dehumanization and regression.
The thing I really think that sets FMJ -- and Kubrick's work in general -- apart, and also causes trouble with a lot of viewers, is his insistence on being true to a situation, and to complexityof character. As horrible as he is, given the situation there are a lot of valid reasons for Hartman to behave as he does; as much as they may seem awful, it's an awful situation. Similarly, Animal Mother's viciousness, Cowboy's inability, Joker's opportunism -- these are all extremely complex, contradictory characters, and they resist easy categories, easy good/bad descriptions: compare them to either of the Sgt's in Platoon, it's like night and day. Of course, not everyone likes complexity or not having things spelled out, and a lot of people can't get a handle on FMJ either.
Nintendho - read these links:
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0030.html
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0093.html
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0079.html
To me the unalterable distinction between Platoon and Full Metal Jacket is that Platoon tells you exactly how to feel about practically every minute of the film, and Full Metal Jacket about practically none of it. And to me one of those options is simply a better kind of art.
Again, I really think people have a very hard time seeing Full Metal Jacket if they concentrate on what it isn't -- i.e. on how they think a war movie ought to behave -- than on watching how it does behave. I think with an artist of Kubrick's stature one owes it to him to go in with an open mind and see what is happening. Most of the negative reactions to Full Metal Jacket -- Ebert included -- are full of frustrated expectations that they have brought to the experience.
:)
-
Character relationships does not take away from the fact that FMJ is about dehumanization and regression.
what my point was is that with the boot camp scene, it doesn't have anything to do with the message of the movie. I mean I understand the duality of the characters and how the movie is trying to show how they're all different and doesn't try to focus on it to let the viewer watch how they want, but imo it should've shown why there is a duality in the characters to be a more interesting movie. the movie tries to show everything in a balanced way by focusing on the guy who's job is to give a bias to the war. then why does it focus on ONE fucking scene that has anything to do with his fucking job?