THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Flannel Boy on January 16, 2009, 05:25:52 PM
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How could you let this happen Cajole?
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He became more feared the longer he was retired.
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Might as well put Joe Carter in the HoF
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Adam Dunn = HOFer
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Adam Dunn = HOFer
If he retired today. :o
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I still can't get over the "most feared hitter" bullshit. Why the fuck couldn't he even get 30% of the vote his first time on the ballot if he was so goddamn feared? Fucking morons. Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.
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Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.
For a three year stretch, he kinda was.
I've seen people frame this as a statheads vs. traditionalists issue, but I think it's more a longevity vs. excellence debate. There was a relatively short period where he was arguably the best hitter in the entire game. So does that count more or less than the kind of consistency that eventually nets you 3,000 hits?
For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter. Mattingly's a better comparison.
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At least they voted Ricky Henderson in. :-\
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For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter.
I was joking about Carter
edit2:
The Baseball HoF has tended to reward longevity and greatness maintained for long periods of time. Jim Rice was not a great hitter for a long enough period.
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Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.
For a three year stretch, he kinda was.
I've seen people frame this as a statheads vs. traditionalists issue, but I think it's more a longevity vs. excellence debate. There was a relatively short period where he was arguably the best hitter in the entire game. So does that count more or less than the kind of consistency that eventually nets you 3,000 hits?
For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter. Mattingly's a better comparison.
Then why doesn't anyone when they actually argue FOR HIM bring up the same point as you? It's not statheads vs. traditionalists. It's sensible people vs. morons.
Even though his three best years are still only equal to Manny's ENTIRE CAREER, that's still a better argument than every single other one I've read.
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At least they voted Ricky Henderson in. :-\
Ricky earned it. While he wasn't in his prime anymore, I loved watching him play for the M's in 2000.
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Ricky's a hall of famer. Ricky is great. Rick is awesome. Ricky is gonna talk about Ricky.
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Edgar Martinez in 2010!!
http://www.abarim.com/edgar.htm
Pretty please?
The strongest case we can make for Edgar's Hall candidacy is this: Only 15 individuals in the history of the game retired with a batting average above .300, an on-base percentage above .400, and a slugging percentage above .500. This group includes, among others, Ty Cobb (.366-.433-.512), Babe Ruth (.342-.474-.690), Lou Gehrig (.340-.447-.632) and Ted Williams (.344-.482-.634).
This group also includes Edgar Martinez, who retired following the 2004 season with a .312 batting average, a .418 on-base percentage and a .515 slugging percentage.
Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Hank Aaron isn't in it. Neither is Honus Wagner, Nap Lajoie, George Sisler, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, George Brett, Willie McCovey and Kirby Puckett.
EDGAR ESTA CALIENTE
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His acceptance speech is going to be AWESOME.
And yeah, Edgar > Rice. Dude's career OPS+ is 147. That is great.
Tim Raines better get in.
That club you posted, Jim Rice only BARELY makes the .500 SLG requirement. And that's playing his entire career in goddamn Fenway. :lol
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Shit, MLB even renamed the Designated Hitter Award the Edgar Martinez Award.
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Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Mickey Mantle
Well, a .298 average, but come on.
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Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Mickey Mantle
Well, a .298 average, but come on.
baseball is all about magic numbers
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I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.
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I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.
Mickey? yes. His liver? Fuck no!
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I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.
Mickey? yes. His liver? Fuck no!
His liver would want another liver to suffer, too. His liver was bitter--full of bile!
:tomato
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Well, yeah. I mean, he was a Yankee after all.
I don't care how annoying the Red Sox fans have become, it will always be FUCK THE YANKEES FOR LIFE
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Damn straight. I don't even follow baseball and I still say, "fuck the yankees."
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The worst thing about Jim Rice making it, is that it just makes Alan Trammell's snub even more ridiculous.
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The worst thing about Jim Rice making it, is that it just makes Alan Trammell's snub even more ridiculous.
I know he's a SS, a GG winning SS, but his numbers are very mediocre.
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Yes, but he was the "most feared" defender for three years.
And there are countless amounts of SS's that don't have huge numbers already in the HOF. He shouldn't be penalized because he played during Cal Ripken's time.
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I don't think you can say he was the most feared hitter on his team for a number of those years...
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edit2:
The Baseball HoF has tended to reward longevity and greatness maintained for long periods of time. Jim Rice was not a great hitter for a long enough period.
No, really?? I was unaware of this!
Are you actually endorsing an argument from precedent here or just citing it? Cause it would be out of character for you.
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Are you actually endorsing an argument from precedent here or just citing it? Cause it would be out of character for you.
I would personally rather have players in the Hall who managed greatness during a very short window rather than have the Hall full of guys who strung together 20 good years. But Rice's four great years were not thatgreat. And especially not great enough to mask his dozen mediocre to pretty good years. It's not as if he only had a short window of greatness because of injuries; he's no Koufax.
If Pujols retired today, for example, I think he'd deserve to be in Cooperstown. The difference? Stupid numbers for eight consecutive seasons with absolutely no drops. Eight HoF season out of eight. Rice, in contrast, is batting .250.
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You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.
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You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.
My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.
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Albert Belle > Jim Rice
this post by eznark over at GAF is awesome
I am sensing a new metric that will become popular when the Hall of Fame vote rolls around. VOJR. I can't wait.
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Albert Belle > Jim Rice
In their primes? No question.
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I keep mis-reading the thread title as Jim Rome was voted in the HoF
smh
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I keep mis-reading the thread title as Jim Rome was voted in the HoF
smh
leper/ban
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You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.
My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.
Fair enough. Rice probably shouldn't be in the Hall, but I like moving the criteria away from accumulating big career numbers and towards playing at a very high level during the prime years.
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You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.
My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.
Fair enough. Rice probably shouldn't be in the Hall, but I like moving the criteria away from accumulating big career numbers and towards playing at a very high level during the prime years.
Would you put Craig Biggio in the HoF? He's a first-ballot Hall of Famer based on precedent, especially because he was a second baseman.
He's a player who basically accumulated big numbers by playing very well over 20 seasons.
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Quick response? No.
On the other hand, I'd want to see how he compared to contemporary 2B's, which baseball-reference doesn't do. Comparing a 2B's batting stats against the lugs at 1B and LF is kind of unfair.
On the other other hand he was totally on steroids in his 30's, which is a whole nother can of beans.
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I'd probably vote him in. Bill James is actually a huge fan of him.
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Holy shit, I just picked up my Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract to look at his Biggio entry:
Anyway, Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, this being one of the reasons he has been tremendously underrated. If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has the hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times (34 to 1), and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average.
Perfect.
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Holy shit, I just picked up my Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract to look at his Biggio entry:
Anyway, Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, this being one of the reasons he has been tremendously underrated. If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has the hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times (34 to 1), and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average.
Perfect.
haha
I'd probably put Biggio in the Hall, too. Roberto Alomar will be voted on next year. He might not get in the first year because of character reasons, but he's an eventual lock; he should get in on his defense alone.
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Yeah, I'd definitely put Alomar in, even though he magically turned to shit when he came to the Mets. :'(
Jesus fucking Christ, he went from a 150 OPS+ to 89 OPS+ in one fucking season. What the FUCK. ARGHHHHHHHH
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roids?
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No excuse. Not even Lou Gehrig had a drop that precipitous.
Wait, nevermind. I was just really hoping he didn't. Damn.
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Yeah, I'd definitely put Alomar in, even though he magically turned to shit when he came to the Mets. :'(
Jesus fucking Christ, he went from a 150 OPS+ to 89 OPS+ in one fucking season. What the FUCK
:gloomy the Mets :gloomy
.
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No excuse. Not even Lou Gehrig had a drop that precipitous.
Wait, nevermind. I was just really hoping he didn't. Damn.
ya, 132 -> 10
lol
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It's okay .. we received Matt Lawton and Alex Escobar (who I think is still in the Yankee org) in exchange for Robbie Alomar. Fair trade in the end.
Shapiro almost robbed someone again.