Author Topic: Jim Rice was voted into the Hall of Fame? (Read 1851 times)

Flannel Boy · « **on:** January 16, 2009, 05:25:52 PM »

How could you let this happen Cajole?

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:30:35 PM »

He became more feared the longer he was retired.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:33:57 PM »

Might as well put Joe Carter in the HoF

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:35:37 PM »

Adam Dunn = HOFer

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:42:41 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 16, 2009, 05:35:37 PM

Adam Dunn = HOFer

If he retired today.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »

I still can't get over the "most feared hitter" bullshit. Why the fuck couldn't he even get 30% of the vote his first time on the ballot if he was so goddamn feared? Fucking morons. Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.

Mandark · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:44:29 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 16, 2009, 05:46:24 PM

Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.

For a three year stretch, he kinda was.

I've seen people frame this as a statheads vs. traditionalists issue, but I think it's more a longevity vs. excellence debate. There was a relatively short period where he was arguably the best hitter in the entire game. So does that count more or less than the kind of consistency that eventually nets you 3,000 hits?

For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter. Mattingly's a better comparison.

Guybrush Threepwood · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:21:01 AM »

At least they voted Ricky Henderson in. $:-\$

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:33:14 AM »

Quote from: Mandark on January 17, 2009, 11:44:29 PM

For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter.

I was joking about Carter

edit2:
The Baseball HoF has tended to reward longevity and greatness maintained for long periods of time. Jim Rice was not a great hitter for a long enough period.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:57:37 AM »

Quote from: Mandark on January 17, 2009, 11:44:29 PM

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 16, 2009, 05:46:24 PM
Jim Rice was not Manny Ramirez.

For a three year stretch, he kinda was.

I've seen people frame this as a statheads vs. traditionalists issue, but I think it's more a longevity vs. excellence debate. There was a relatively short period where he was arguably the best hitter in the entire game. So does that count more or less than the kind of consistency that eventually nets you 3,000 hits?

For the record, he was way better than Joe Carter. Mattingly's a better comparison.

Then why doesn't anyone when they actually argue FOR HIM bring up the same point as you? It's not statheads vs. traditionalists. It's sensible people vs. morons.

Even though his three best years are still only equal to Manny's ENTIRE CAREER, that's still a better argument than every single other one I've read.

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:00:18 AM »

Quote from: Guybrush Threepwood on January 18, 2009, 12:21:01 AM

At least they voted Ricky Henderson in. $:-\$

Ricky earned it. While he wasn't in his prime anymore, I loved watching him play for the M's in 2000.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:01:32 AM »

Ricky's a hall of famer. Ricky is great. Rick is awesome. Ricky is gonna talk about Ricky.

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:04:49 AM »

Edgar Martinez in 2010!!

http://www.abarim.com/edgar.htm

Pretty please?

Quote from: Seattle PI

The strongest case we can make for Edgar's Hall candidacy is this: Only 15 individuals in the history of the game retired with a batting average above .300, an on-base percentage above .400, and a slugging percentage above .500. This group includes, among others, Ty Cobb (.366-.433-.512), Babe Ruth (.342-.474-.690), Lou Gehrig (.340-.447-.632) and Ted Williams (.344-.482-.634).

This group also includes Edgar Martinez, who retired following the 2004 season with a .312 batting average, a .418 on-base percentage and a .515 slugging percentage.

Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Hank Aaron isn't in it. Neither is Honus Wagner, Nap Lajoie, George Sisler, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, George Brett, Willie McCovey and Kirby Puckett.

EDGAR ESTA CALIENTE

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:05:39 AM »

His acceptance speech is going to be AWESOME.

And yeah, Edgar > Rice. Dude's career OPS+ is 147. That is great.

Tim Raines better get in.

That club you posted, Jim Rice only BARELY makes the .500 SLG requirement. And that's playing his entire career in goddamn Fenway.

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:07:37 AM »

Shit, MLB even renamed the Designated Hitter Award the Edgar Martinez Award.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:09:27 AM »

Quote from: distantmantra on January 18, 2009, 01:04:49 AM

Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Mickey Mantle

Well, a .298 average, but come on.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:11:33 AM »

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 01:09:27 AM

Quote from: distantmantra on January 18, 2009, 01:04:49 AM

Remarkable about the .300.-.400-.500 club is who isn't in it. Mickey Mantle

Well, a .298 average, but come on.

baseball is all about magic numbers

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:14:58 AM »

I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:17:24 AM »

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 01:14:58 AM

I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.

Mickey? yes. His liver? Fuck no!

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:24:20 AM »

Quote from: distantmantra on January 18, 2009, 01:17:24 AM

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 01:14:58 AM
I'll have a drink for Mickey; it's what his liver would have wanted.
Mickey? yes. His liver? Fuck no!

His liver would want another liver to suffer, too. His liver was bitter--full of bile!

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:28:07 AM »

Well, yeah. I mean, he was a Yankee after all.

I don't care how annoying the Red Sox fans have become, it will always be FUCK THE YANKEES FOR LIFE

drozmight · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:56:52 AM »

Damn straight. I don't even follow baseball and I still say, "fuck the yankees."

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:38:40 AM »

The worst thing about Jim Rice making it, is that it just makes Alan Trammell's snub even more ridiculous.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:36:38 AM »

Quote from: ToxicAdam on January 18, 2009, 02:38:40 AM

The worst thing about Jim Rice making it, is that it just makes Alan Trammell's snub even more ridiculous.

I know he's a SS, a GG winning SS, but his numbers are very mediocre.

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #24 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:43:19 AM »

Yes, but he was the "most feared" defender for three years.

And there are countless amounts of SS's that don't have huge numbers already in the HOF. He shouldn't be penalized because he played during Cal Ripken's time.

y2kev · « **Reply #25 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:11:43 AM »

I don't think you can say he was the most feared hitter on his team for a number of those years...

Mandark · « **Reply #26 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:58:38 AM »

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 12:33:14 AM

edit2:
The Baseball HoF has tended to reward longevity and greatness maintained for long periods of time. Jim Rice was not a great hitter for a long enough period.

No, really?? I was unaware of this!

Are you actually endorsing an argument from precedent here or just citing it? Cause it would be out of character for you.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Mandark on January 18, 2009, 11:58:38 AM

Are you actually endorsing an argument from precedent here or just citing it? Cause it would be out of character for you.

I would personally rather have players in the Hall who managed greatness during a very short window rather than have the Hall full of guys who strung together 20 good years. But Rice's four great years were not thatgreat. And especially not great enough to mask his dozen mediocre to pretty good years. It's not as if he only had a short window of greatness because of injuries; he's no Koufax.

If Pujols retired today, for example, I think he'd deserve to be in Cooperstown. The difference? Stupid numbers for eight consecutive seasons with absolutely no drops. Eight HoF season out of eight. Rice, in contrast, is batting .250.

Mandark · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:25:17 PM »

You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:28:53 PM »

Quote from: Mandark on January 18, 2009, 12:25:17 PM

You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.

My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #30 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:32:23 PM »

Albert Belle > Jim Rice

this post by eznark over at GAF is awesome

Quote

I am sensing a new metric that will become popular when the Hall of Fame vote rolls around. VOJR. I can't wait.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:34:16 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 18, 2009, 12:32:23 PM

Albert Belle > Jim Rice

In their primes? No question.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #32 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:06:27 PM »

I keep mis-reading the thread title as Jim Rome was voted in the HoF

smh

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:06:57 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 18, 2009, 01:06:27 PM

I keep mis-reading the thread title as Jim Rome was voted in the HoF

smh

leper/ban

Mandark · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:18:56 PM »

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 12:28:53 PM

Quote from: Mandark on January 18, 2009, 12:25:17 PM
You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.

My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.

Fair enough. Rice probably shouldn't be in the Hall, but I like moving the criteria away from accumulating big career numbers and towards playing at a very high level during the prime years.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #35 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:26:11 PM »

Quote from: Mandark on January 18, 2009, 01:18:56 PM

Quote from: Night Man on January 18, 2009, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: Mandark on January 18, 2009, 12:25:17 PM
You start using Pujols as the yardstick, and it's going to be a Walk-in Closet of Fame.

My point is that if you're going to put a guy in the Hall for a few great years, those years better be stupid.

Fair enough. Rice probably shouldn't be in the Hall, but I like moving the criteria away from accumulating big career numbers and towards playing at a very high level during the prime years.

Would you put Craig Biggio in the HoF? He's a first-ballot Hall of Famer based on precedent, especially because he was a second baseman.

He's a player who basically accumulated big numbers by playing very well over 20 seasons.

Mandark · « **Reply #36 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:36:16 PM »

Quick response? No.

On the other hand, I'd want to see how he compared to contemporary 2B's, which baseball-reference doesn't do. Comparing a 2B's batting stats against the lugs at 1B and LF is kind of unfair.

On the other other hand he was totally on steroids in his 30's, which is a whole nother can of beans.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #37 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:40:39 PM »

I'd probably vote him in. Bill James is actually a huge fan of him.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #38 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:48:32 PM »

Holy shit, I just picked up my Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract to look at his Biggio entry:

Quote

Anyway, Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, this being one of the reasons he has been tremendously underrated. If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has the hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times (34 to 1), and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average.

Perfect.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #39 on:** January 18, 2009, 01:54:04 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 18, 2009, 01:48:32 PM

Holy shit, I just picked up my Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract to look at his Biggio entry:

Quote
Anyway, Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, this being one of the reasons he has been tremendously underrated. If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has the hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times (34 to 1), and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average.

Perfect.

haha

I'd probably put Biggio in the Hall, too. Roberto Alomar will be voted on next year. He might not get in the first year because of character reasons, but he's an eventual lock; he should get in on his defense alone.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #40 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:01:39 PM »

Yeah, I'd definitely put Alomar in, even though he magically turned to shit when he came to the Mets. :'(

Jesus fucking Christ, he went from a 150 OPS+ to 89 OPS+ in one fucking season. What the FUCK. ARGHHHHHHHH

y2kev · « **Reply #41 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:03:13 PM »

roids?

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #42 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:04:16 PM »

No excuse. Not even Lou Gehrig had a drop that precipitous.

Wait, nevermind. I was just really hoping he didn't. Damn.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #43 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:04:45 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 18, 2009, 02:01:39 PM

Yeah, I'd definitely put Alomar in, even though he magically turned to shit when he came to the Mets. :'(

Jesus fucking Christ, he went from a 150 OPS+ to 89 OPS+ in one fucking season. What the FUCK

the Mets

.

y2kev · « **Reply #44 on:** January 18, 2009, 02:23:25 PM »

Quote from: CajoleJuice on January 18, 2009, 02:04:16 PM

No excuse. Not even Lou Gehrig had a drop that precipitous.

Wait, nevermind. I was just really hoping he didn't. Damn.

ya, 132 -> 10
lol

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #45 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:20:03 PM »

It's okay .. we received Matt Lawton and Alex Escobar (who I think is still in the Yankee org) in exchange for Robbie Alomar. Fair trade in the end.

Shapiro almost robbed someone again.

News:

Author Topic: Jim Rice was voted into the Hall of Fame? (Read 1851 times)