THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Mandark on June 11, 2009, 04:57:58 AM

Title: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 11, 2009, 04:57:58 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6476290.ece

Quote
The sun beat down, the temperature rose and bodies pressed together. A succession of speakers kept the faithful in a state of ferment. “Ahmadinejad for family values,” they chanted. “Ahmadinejad, you are the nation’s choice.”

...

“Ahmadinejad is brave. Every night he catches a thief,” the crowd roared back in unison.

...

It was 90 minutes before Mr Ahmadinejad ended. “Oh Great and Compassionate God, sit the Iranian nation on the roof of the world.” As one, the crowd responded: “Thank you, thank you, our President.”

Highlighted for the insane coordinated cheering.


I was gonna write something about the parallels between Ahmadinejad and Bush, but Laura Secor beat me to it (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=ae8cb182-5cd1-4918-b545-78b901223661).  Maziar Bahari did too (http://www.newsweek.com/id/200236).  The first article especially is a good read.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 11, 2009, 05:11:01 AM
So if Ahmadinejad wins...Obama's speech was a massive failure of appeasing proportions correct
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 11, 2009, 05:13:26 AM
The TNR article is very informative and very well written.

It's hilarious that the most liberal candidate in the election is a cleric.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: T-Short on June 11, 2009, 05:15:44 AM
Debate video with candidate Mousavi laying the smackdown on Ahmadinejad! (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=928_1244583488)
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 11, 2009, 06:35:55 AM
I fucking FINALLY found out where the Bay Area's election location is, was planning to start this thread then.  Anyways, I guess Mousavi isn't all THAT bad.  His platform is basically that he can't screw anything up worse than Ahmadinejad.  I was planning on doing a write-in vote for Ron Paul but the election's too close for that.

Also, these opinion polls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2009#Opinion_polls) don't make any sense.  They just bounce back and forth.  If they were rigged, you'd think that there would at least be some consistency.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: ToxicAdam on June 11, 2009, 07:33:25 AM
Why does Iran still matter? Aside from Bush elevating them to the status of national bogeyman, they're essentially irrelevant on the national scene.

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Veidt on June 11, 2009, 07:50:47 AM
@ToxicAdam

Bush might be gone, but Israel is still faced with a potential threat to their regional domination. Now, Obama is trying his best to handle it differently and put the needs of the US citizens above the wants of a few Israeli hardliners. Which is why you get reactions like these:

 http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/06/max-blumenthal-feeling-the-hate-in-jerusalem-on-eve-of-obamas-cairo-address.html
On his manner of engagement.

Anyway, I hope Ahmadinijad loses.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 11, 2009, 08:55:25 AM
Why does Iran still matter? Aside from Bush elevating them to the status of national bogeyman, they're essentially irrelevant on the national scene.



As long as we are involved in the middle east either in the microscopic level of being in Iraq and Afghanistan, or even at a higher level of the Israel/Palestinian conflict or our Israel policy in general, Iran will matter to some degree.

Now someone could argue the case that we shouldn't be so highly involved in either but that is a much larger debate on America's role as a superpower or as a sort of policemen of the world which neither party takes the anti position on outside of Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich types. Republicans nor Democrats in the mainstream are isolationists to use that potentially pejorative term.

As far as the actual election I hope Ahmadinejad loses simply because of a lot of his statements on the national stage, not that I suddenly think Mousavi will be some 180 degree flip on most international issues (especially since he won't dictate actual policy on most of these issues because of the structure of their government) but he couldn't be any worse I would think. I'm skeptical Ahmadinejad will lose though.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: ToxicAdam on June 11, 2009, 09:19:46 AM
Stoney, did you get banned again?

Nice to see you here.

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 11, 2009, 09:21:53 AM
Stoney, did you get banned again?

Yep. For two weeks.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Fragamemnon on June 11, 2009, 12:00:37 PM
I heard you went off on JayDubya's FoC-esque randroid douchebaggery. Good show.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 02:43:30 PM
Good blogging update site to get a sense of the action. Turnout was immense.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jun/12/iran-middleeast

Quote
6.35pm:
As night fell on Tehran the heavens opened with a deliciously cooling
downpour after a very long hot day, writes Ian Black in his final blog posting of the day.

Amazingly, polling stations are still open and heaving, with voting extended for a fourth extra hour to accommodate what by all accounts is a massive voter turnout that could even break the 1997 record.

Friends in the Mousavi camp can hardly contain their excitement at what they think is the likelihood of imminent victory. But they say they are worried about a last-minute hitch: the meaning of a reported shortage of ballot papers in some places, for example, and ominous predictions that the regime may lash out if Ahmadinejad does lose.

A Revolutionary Guard warning about not tolerating a "velvet revolution" by the Iranian "greens" has been noted with some alarm. The blocking of SMS messages throughout the day was almost certainly designed to disrupt contact between Mousavi supporters.

"We are all very excited," said a North Tehran photographer, "but we fear that we may have to pay for our empowerment."
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 12, 2009, 03:17:04 PM
The American media is going to give the credit to Obama's speech if Amiajdjjdajdjajdjadid goes down but he was way behind in the polls long before Obama's speech.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 03:31:05 PM
The American media is going to give the credit to Obama's speech if Amiajdjjdajdjajdjadid goes down but he was way behind in the polls long before Obama's speech.

Polling is notoriously difficult to do in societies like Iran and even less accurate because of the demographics of voting in that particular society.

Our media is dumb and awful as a general rule on anything that is beyond the simplest issues.

The reasons why these things happen are for a myriad of reasons, mostly specific to that society. Of course not having an openly antagonistic American president gives less chance for Ahmadinejad to demagogue and whip up the the pure Anti-American vote.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 12, 2009, 03:33:49 PM
I am not saying Obama himself and Obama's actions aren't a factor, they clearly are. It just it will be blown out of proportion here assuming the guy gets defeated. Not cause of any bias, more because it makes a good story.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: T-Short on June 12, 2009, 03:45:17 PM
some very nice pics here

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html)
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Brehvolution on June 12, 2009, 03:50:42 PM
some very nice pics here

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html)

Iranian women are hot and not fat. :drool
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Snuflupagulus on June 12, 2009, 04:43:20 PM
Seattle-bore should recognize this guy immediately.  Rick Steves did a pretty good travel documentary of Iran recently.  I'm not sure if it's on PBS's website, but it's on youtube.  Definitely worth a watch (if you can spare an hour):

[youtube=560,345]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmaoyR2sxSA&feature=related[/youtube]
Great interview of a young female student in the second video at 4:34.  Rick Steves  :pimp
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 05:09:10 PM
This is gonna be nasty.

Quote
Iran rivals both declare victory 
 
The two main candidates in Iran's presidential election have claimed victory, after extended voting as huge numbers of people turned out to vote.

Reformist challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi told a news conference that he had won by a substantial margin.

However, state media said incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won, and electoral officials said partial results put him ahead on 69%.

But Mr Mousavi has complained of some voting irregularities.

He said there had been a shortage of ballot papers and millions of people had been denied the right to vote.

His election monitors were not allowed enough access to polling stations, he added, saying he would deal seriously with any fraud.

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Tehran says that, with the count barely having begun, this could be a case of the two candidates just sending a warning.


 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8098305.stm
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Ganhyun on June 12, 2009, 05:13:25 PM
This is gonna be nasty.

Quote
Iran rivals both declare victory 
 
The two main candidates in Iran's presidential election have claimed victory, after extended voting as huge numbers of people turned out to vote.

Reformist challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi told a news conference that he had won by a substantial margin.

However, state media said incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had won, and electoral officials said partial results put him ahead on 69%.

But Mr Mousavi has complained of some voting irregularities.

He said there had been a shortage of ballot papers and millions of people had been denied the right to vote.

His election monitors were not allowed enough access to polling stations, he added, saying he would deal seriously with any fraud.

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Tehran says that, with the count barely having begun, this could be a case of the two candidates just sending a warning.


 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8098305.stm


oh boy. you are right about it likely getting nasty Stoney.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 12, 2009, 05:42:58 PM
It's Iran, a confusing unreliable election result is not that surprising to me.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 12, 2009, 06:00:14 PM
some very nice pics here

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html)

persian girls awwww yaaah
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on June 12, 2009, 06:07:00 PM
Quote
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei speaks live on television after casting his ballot in the Iranian presidential election in Tehran June 12, 2009. The post of Supreme Leader is Iran's highest ranking political and religious authority - higher than the office of the president - and is elected by Iran's 86-member Islamic "Assembly of Experts", not by popular vote.

What does the president do that's different from the supreme leader?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 06:20:50 PM
Quote
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei speaks live on television after casting his ballot in the Iranian presidential election in Tehran June 12, 2009. The post of Supreme Leader is Iran's highest ranking political and religious authority - higher than the office of the president - and is elected by Iran's 86-member Islamic "Assembly of Experts", not by popular vote.

What does the president do that's different from the supreme leader?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_of_Experts
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 12, 2009, 06:41:49 PM
FoC: uh you didn't answer my question
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Joe Molotov on June 12, 2009, 06:51:19 PM
Quote
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei speaks live on television after casting his ballot in the Iranian presidential election in Tehran June 12, 2009. The post of Supreme Leader is Iran's highest ranking political and religious authority - higher than the office of the president - and is elected by Iran's 86-member Islamic "Assembly of Experts", not by popular vote.

What does the president do that's different from the supreme leader?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Imam_Khomeini_-_has_exiled.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Grand_Ayatollah_Ali_Khamenei%2C.jpg/754px-Grand_Ayatollah_Ali_Khamenei%2C.jpg)

Only the Supreme Leader gets to have an enormous beard.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on June 12, 2009, 07:07:37 PM
FoC: uh you didn't answer my question

Watchu talkin about? What question?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 09:12:44 PM
Seems like the fix is in.

Quote
n Iran, first results give Ahmadinejad commanding lead
His challenger, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is claiming irregularities. Police moved quickly to quell small protests.

By Scott Peterson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

TEHRAN, IRAN - Electoral officials announced a strong lead for Iran's firebrand President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, even as his main challenger claimed irregularities and stated that he had won Friday's contest.

Results of 47.3 percent of the vote, announced at 2 a.m., gave Mr. Ahmadinejad 67 percent of the vote, compared with 30.34 percent for Mir Hossein Mousavi, whose "green wave" of supporters had sparked popular street demonstrations during the campaign.

Mr. Mousavi argued that he had won an outright victory. "In line with the information we have received, I am the winner of this election by a substantial margin," he stated late on Friday.

Mousavi asked Iran's supreme religious leader, Ayatollah Sayed Ali Khamenei, to intervene.

At least three pro-Mousavi websites were shut down on Friday – along with that of the candidate himself. The results came through uncommonly quickly overnight, far faster than all elections of previous years.

In a statement Friday night on Fars news agency, Ahmadinejad's campaign said that "a golden page in the glorious history of the Islamic revolution has been witnessed." It praised the Iranian people for showing that while "reaching toward justice and fighting oppression, they will not stand down, and they will go against any darkness and filth."

TEARS AND ANGER ON THE STREET

Mousavi's loyalists – who had expected a victory over the divisive incumbent – were not buying the results. Police placed concrete barriers and several rows of police cars to block access to the Ministry of Interior, where votes were being tabulated and announced.

Hundreds of Mousavi supporters, frustrated, angry, and some with tears in their eyes, gathered in the front of the campaign headquarters in a state of shock.

"If there is rigging, Iran will be like judgment day!" they chanted. "Mousavi: Congratulations on your presidency!"


On Friday night, the mostly young Iranians who had flooded the streets with such abandon and political brashness during Iran's electrifying three-week campaign, were being chased outside the campaign headquarters by small groups of police and other security elements wielding batons and kicking, pepper-spraying, and punching people.

One diminutive young woman walked away from the after-midnight melee clutching her belly, where she had been hit, and sobbing. One man had boot marks on his arm where he had been kicked; another showed graze marks from a baton.

"I think this is psychological warfare," said one Mousavi supporter. "They want to scare us and give us the idea that we are losing."

It may have been working, as more results began to come out that showed Ahmadinejad with a commanding lead. The tumultuous, mud-slinging campaign and ever-growing street protests had prompted many analysts to predict a first-round victory for Mousavi.

First-ever debates focused on accusations and countercharges of lying over even basic statistics like inflation and employment figures. Playing on the theme, one Mousavi supporter early Saturday morning was despondent.

He said: "If they can play around with statistics, they can play around with votes."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0613/p06s10-wome.html
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Ganhyun on June 12, 2009, 09:19:29 PM
So the real question is was there real tampering or not? If so, how far will the reactions go?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 09:23:06 PM
So the real question is was there real tampering or not? If so, how far will the reactions go?

In a society with that sort of leadership structure I doubt they will be very forthcoming on opening up the results of the election to outside scrutiny. Seems very surprising/unlikely that Ahmadinejad would be able to garner such a large win with such a large voting turnout without something fishy going on.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Ganhyun on June 12, 2009, 09:32:22 PM
So the real question is was there real tampering or not? If so, how far will the reactions go?

In a society with that sort of leadership structure I doubt they will be very forthcoming on opening up the results of the election to outside scrutiny. Seems very surprising/unlikely that Ahmadinejad would be able to garner such a large win with such a large voting turnout without something fishy going on.


I agree. I didnt specify enough with my comment though. I was thinking of the reactions of those inside Iran.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Crushed on June 12, 2009, 09:36:45 PM
Conservatism wins again in the Middle East.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 09:42:53 PM
I agree. I didnt specify enough with my comment though. I was thinking of the reactions of those inside Iran.

We'll see I guess. Although in societies without strong historical committments to Democracy and the different facets of freedom of speech it's hard to really imagine an effective or tangible reaction although occasionally it does happen in these sorts of societies of course.

Not conclusively saying Ahmadinejad didn't really win at this stage even without more info. I was always a bit skeptical of the some of the so called polling data that had Mousavi destroying him but like I said with this high level of turnout it strikes me as a bit dubious as an outsider looking in. If your vote counting process isn't open then there will always be doubts and questions.



Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. - Josef Stalin
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 12, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
the bore will comfort the despondent young Iranian women
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Brehvolution on June 12, 2009, 09:52:07 PM
the bore will comfort the despondent young Iranian women

:drool

spoiler (click to show/hide)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Hio5g1VPqRM/SCoFTxY9DlI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/nz9RdnqEu_w/s400/l_47fba69de43bc948a341155f316d19a2.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Ganhyun on June 12, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
:drool indeed
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: cool breeze on June 12, 2009, 09:59:22 PM
I can't find Iranian women attractive because they all remind me of my family  :'(
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 12, 2009, 10:22:54 PM
People like to overestimate how many Iranians want reform.  I remember the same thing happening last election.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 12, 2009, 10:25:23 PM
I can't find Iranian women attractive because they all remind me of my family  :'(


we will be the vienna in this persopolis
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 10:29:33 PM
People like to overestimate how many Iranians want reform.  I remember the same thing happening last election.

There is always a horserace model the media follows for these stories no matter what the country also which doesn't help. Couple that with poor or non-existent independent polling. And not exactly the most open and free society and you have a recipe for this sort of thing.

The only bright side is that like in nearly all countries the first results are from rural smaller areas which tend to favor the "conservative" or "traditional" candidates. It takes longer to count the larger urban areas and cities which tend to be more "liberal" so those get reported last. So you often have a pattern where a conservative leads a liberal early and then the race closes.  Still if those early vote totals are correct which is like half the vote so far it seems impossible for Mousavi to catch up unless he wins the last half in a commanding manner.

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 12, 2009, 10:35:31 PM
Wow, massive blow to the Obama administration
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 10:37:12 PM
Wow, massive blow to the Obama administration

This will be the next Hannity, Limbaugh, Gingrich, Drudge meme...
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 12, 2009, 10:45:30 PM
People like to overestimate how many Iranians want reform.  I remember the same thing happening last election.

There is always a horserace model the media follows for these stories no matter what the country also which doesn't help. Couple that with poor or non-existent independent polling. And not exactly the most open and free society and you have a recipe for this sort of thing.

The only bright side is that like in nearly all countries the first results are from rural smaller areas which tend to favor the "conservative" or "traditional" candidates. It takes longer to count the larger urban areas and cities which tend to be more "liberal" so those get reported last. So you often have a pattern where a conservative leads a liberal early and then the race closes.  Still if those early vote totals are correct which is like half the vote so far it seems impossible for Mousavi to catch up unless he wins the last half in a commanding manner.



I'm not saying the votes aren't manipulated or that Ahmadinejad has this in the bag yet but this time and the previous election, there were always stories of "Iran is headed towards reform and here's why..." and then the results turn out to be the opposite.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 10:53:27 PM
Just like America or any country there is a tendency to occasionally mistake the intensity of the opposition to tell a story related to the numbers of the opposition. See our country in 2004.

It's also probably a little unfair to sometimes gauge the citizens of a country when the deck is stacked so far to one side. It's probably much harder to be identified as in league with those who want reform in a society so stacked against reform or indeed any change from a leadership perspective.

The most puzzling part like I said is the very large turnout. It's hard to imagine that such a large turnout is simply a sign of how awesome Ahmadinejad is which leads to understandably casting a dubious eye on the voting results.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on June 12, 2009, 11:10:50 PM
Ahmadinejad apparently won the 2005 election 62-36, so this result doesn't seem all that far-fetched unless 2005 was also fixed (which seems prima facie unlikely to me since his opponent was Rafsanjani who is a powerful insider, but it's not like I know anything).
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 12, 2009, 11:13:56 PM
the percentage won't be as interesting as the totals will be

There is supposedly a larger turnout than previously. If the totals don't reflect that then it is suspect. Reportedly, the rural base for Ahmadinejad is 10-12 mill and if his totals are much higher than that then it is suspect.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 12, 2009, 11:58:16 PM
Quote
By early Saturday, Ahmadinejad had 65.2 percent and Mousavi had 31.8 percent with 77 percent of all votes counted, said Kamran Daneshjoo, a senior official with the Interior Ministry, which oversees the voting. 

Based on figures released by the ministry, around 75 percent of the 46.2 million eligible voters went to the polls.

There was no sign of increased security, but the warnings had already been issued.

The political chief of the powerful Revolutionary Guard cautioned Wednesday it would crush any "revolution" against the Islamic regime by Mousavi's "green movement." The interior ministry said all rallies or political gatherings would be banned until after the formal announcement of results later Saturday.

Mousavi, however, was equally harsh — accusing the Islamic establishment was "manipulating the people's vote" to keep Ahmadinejad in power.

"I'll pursue this. I won't give up. There is no way back," he said.


Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 13, 2009, 12:28:57 AM
My voting timeline..

2:30-Leave home.

3:20-Arrive at the one Bay Area voting location.  They ran out of votes about an hour before and somebody was driving up from LA with 600 more ballots.

4:50-Ballots arrive.  By now, there is probably around 500 voters in the Hilton's lobby.

5:40-They finally get everybody organized and give them a number between 1-600.  I'm number 357.

7:15-It's my turn to vote.

8:20-I finally arrive back home.

tl:dr I spent 6 hours to vote in a possibly rigged election.  It wouldn't surprise me that Ahmadinejad won since a lot of people I know said that they liked his platform (Iranians don't really like Israel).  I think the early polls were probably really inaccurate or something.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Barry Egan on June 13, 2009, 12:37:21 AM
Who did you vote for?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Brehvolution on June 13, 2009, 12:40:05 AM
I do not see how these election results mean Obama's speech failed.  ???
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 12:49:27 AM
Who did you vote for?

I hate when people ask people this. Just saying...
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 12:50:54 AM
I do not see how these election results mean Obama's speech failed.  ???


It doesn't. They aren't even connected. But you know some dumb talking head Republican on the radio, or in office will say it.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Barry Egan on June 13, 2009, 12:52:13 AM
yeah it's totally a rude question, but its the internet so y'know, whatever!  It's not like we're at a cocktail party and he's going to have to awkwardly segue his way out of answering
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 01:15:58 AM
Quote
Update V: At about 7:30am Tehran time, the U.S.-based Iranian academic writes, "I have been exchanging emails, phone calls, and been in touch with
young, old, men, women, ...and been in touch with people from inside
each campaign (AN and Mousavi). These numbers have surprised even the
supporters  of AN. What is more, the journalists are saying in the
Interior Ministry there has been no explanations, no interviews, just
reading the numbers to journalists. It is mind-boggling at this point.
It is not over by any means; unless reformers want to lay down and
play dead."

He later adds, "The loser either way is Khamenie (if there is a widespread belief that this was rigged). However, I cannot believe given the scope of participation that it would be such a blow out (even as the percentage of booths has nothing to do with the percentage of the vote give because the size of these booths are not the same). However, no one I know can believe these numbers. Something does not add up."

Another Washington-based Iran watcher said at about 11pm EST that Iranian-state-officials are claiming vote counts in the Iranian city of Isfahan show Ahmadinejad winning 3-1. Which would seem a bit absurd - or else a total contrary result from what pre-election reporting indicated. He said there seems to be a waiting for two things: what Mousavi says, and what Rafsanjani says.

Another nice live blogging update site.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/06/12/obama_on_the_iranian_elections
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 13, 2009, 01:17:50 AM
I voted for mousavi.  There's nothing competent about the now re-elected president but he does piss off Israel and Iranians don't want to send a mixed message on how they feel about that particular country.  I guess this election basically shows that if you question the holocaust, you don't need any other qualifications to become the president of Iran.  Especially considering the difference in maturity showed during the Mousavi-Ahmadinejad debate.

This election sort of reminds me of how Bush fucked up by starting the Iraq war and yet he got re-elected because some people didn't want to switch presidents in the middle of a war.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 01:20:39 AM
Ahmadinejad apparently won the 2005 election 62-36, so this result doesn't seem all that far-fetched unless 2005 was also fixed (which seems prima facie unlikely to me since his opponent was Rafsanjani who is a powerful insider, but it's not like I know anything).

I've read allegations that the first round results in 2005 were manipulated and Karroubi should have finished second rather than Ahmadinejad.  No idea if they're credible.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 13, 2009, 02:00:26 AM
The problem for Obama is that he's expected to give a response about the election but he's not allowed to question the honesty of it or else he'll piss off Ahmadinejad and possibly even Iranians.  Ahmadinejad I think could have won but the margin that he won by makes no sense.  Obama has to know how suspicious the results are and so it'll be interesting to see if he says what he's thinking or if he'll try to play nice with the "mad Mullah".
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: ToxicAdam on June 13, 2009, 02:36:01 AM
In a way, I think it's better for the US that Ahmadinejad wins. He's a known quantity and (if you believe people from the left) a lightening rod with little political power in actuality. Mousavi seems like a real unknown and unlikely to make any real drastic changes (for the positive) if he were elected.

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 02:39:21 AM
Ahmadinejad apparently won the 2005 election 62-36, so this result doesn't seem all that far-fetched unless 2005 was also fixed (which seems prima facie unlikely to me since his opponent was Rafsanjani who is a powerful insider, but it's not like I know anything).
The economy is a mess in Iran, Ahmadinejad has lost a lot of popularity. There is NO way he would have a bigger margin after that. It is obviously fixed. But like I said earlier, that doesn't surprise me in the least. It's Iran still.
Title: OH GOD SHUT UP CHEEBS
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 02:42:22 AM
In a way, I think it's better for the US that Ahmadinejad wins. He's a known quantity and (if you believe people from the left) a lightening rod with little political power in actuality. Mousavi seems like a real unknown and unlikely to make any real drastic changes (for the positive) if he were elected.

I wouldn't call Mousavi unknown.  He was prime minister of Iran almost all throughout the 80's and was a primary adviser/mentor to Khatami.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: ToxicAdam on June 13, 2009, 03:05:36 AM
From what I've read he has been completely out of politics since then. Not even commenting on or espousing other politicians since then.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on June 13, 2009, 03:45:25 AM
The more I think about it, the more it doesn't really make sense to me that they'd fix the elections.  We all know that in a sense the whole Iranian political system is itself fixed, but that's implemented as a wrapper around the elections, the pre-/post- hooks being the vetting of candidates by the Guardian Council and the presidents' lack of ultimate power.  With those in place, I don't see why they'd need to fix the election itself, especially since Mousavi doesn't seem to be outside the range of presidents they've let in in the past, and rigging things seems to run more risk of instability than giving people a moderate establishment outlet for their discontent would.  What am I missing?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 04:00:59 AM
TA:  He's definitely been in politics, but it's fair to say he's deliberately kept out of the public eye.  I think he's about as easy to get a read on as your next Iranian politican (that is to say very hard; I'm still not sure how much Ahmadinejad is a hawk and how much an opportunist).


tennin:  You're assuming a single, unitary Iranian elite which would choose whether or not to commit election fraud.

Iran's got a bunch of overlapping and competing institutions, factions, and power centers.  It's not hard to imagine a secretive effort to screw with some of the ballot-counting by, say, local political appointees who rely on the current spoils system or a cabal of Revolutionary Guard officers.

The dynamic you described, however, is a good reason not to think the Ayatollah got together with the Guardians Council and decided they would use the whole apparatus of state to fix the results.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on June 13, 2009, 04:11:22 AM
good point, it's been a while since I spent any time thinking seriously about politics & society and it shows.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 09:04:18 AM
Quote
Officials: Ahmadinejad on way to landslide win
Violence flares after Iran authorities are accused of 'manipulating' results

NBC News and news services
updated 4 minutes ago

TEHRAN, Iran - Anti-riot police guarded the offices overseeing Iran's disputed elections Saturday with the count pointing to a landslide victory by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his opponent denouncing the results as "treason" and threatening a challenge.

Many people opened shops and carried out errands, but the backdrop was far from normal: black-clad police gathering around key government buildings and mobile phone text messaging blocked in an apparent attempt to stifle one of the main communication tools by the pro-reform movement of Mir Hossein Mousavi.

NBC News reported "violent clashes" between rock-throwing protesters and riot police in the center of Tehran.

Earlier, a statement from Mousavi posted on his Web site urged his supporters to resist a "governance of lie and dictatorship."

Outside the Interior Ministry, which directed Friday's voting, security forces set up a cordon. The results had flowed quickly after polls closed showing the hard-line president with a comfortable lead — defying expectations of a nail-biter showdown following a month of fierce campaigning and bringing immediate charges of vote rigging by Mousavi.

But an expected announcement on the full outcome was temporarily put on hold. A reason for the delay was not made public, but it suggested intervention by Iran's Islamic authorities seeking to put the brakes on a potentially volatile showdown.

'I won't surrender'
Ahmadinejad had the apparent backing of the ruling theocracy, which holds near-total power and would have the ability to put the election results into a temporary limbo.

Mousavi, who became the hero of a powerful youth-driven movement, had not made a public address or issued messages since declaring himself the true victor moments after polls closed and accusing authorities of "manipulating" the vote.

"I'm warning that I won't surrender to this manipulation," said the Mousavi statement on the Web on Saturday. "The outcome of what we've seen from the performance of officials ... is nothing but shaking the pillars of the Islamic Republic of Iran sacred system and governance of lie and dictatorship."

He warned "people won't respect those who take power through fraud" and called the decision to announce Ahmadinejad winner of the election was a "treason to the votes of the people."

The headline on one of Mousavi's Web sites: "I wont give in to this dangerous manipulation." Mousavi and key aides could not be reached by phone.

Information clampdown?
It was even unclear how many Iranians were even aware of Mousavi's claims of fraud. Communications disruptions began in the later hours of voting Friday — suggesting an information clampdown. State television and radio only broadcast the Interior Ministry's vote count and not Mousavi's midnight press conference.

Nationwide, the text messaging system remained down Saturday and several pro-Mousavi Web sites were blocked or difficult to access. Text messaging is frequently used by many Iranians — especially young Mousavi supporters — to spread election news.

By Saturday morning, Iran's Interior Ministry said Ahmadinejad had 63.3 percent of the vote and Mousavi had 34.7 percent with about 85 percent of all votes counted. Based on ministry figures, around 75 percent of the country's 46.2 million eligible voters went to the polls, many of which were jammed packed Friday with people waiting several hours to cast their ballots.

At a press conference, Mousavi declared himself "definitely the winner" based on "all indications from all over Iran." He accused the government of "manipulating the people's vote" to keep Ahmadinejad in power and suggested the reformist camp would stand up to challenge the results.

"It is our duty to defend people's votes. There is no turning back," Mousavi said, alleging widespread irregularities.

Mousavi's backers were stunned at Interior Ministry's results after widespread predictions of a close race — or even a slight edge to Mousavi.

"Many Iranians went to the people because they wanted to bring change. Almost everybody I know voted for Mousavi but Ahmadinejad is being declared the winner. The government announcement is nothing but widespread fraud. It is very, very disappointing. I'll never ever again vote in Iran," said Mousavi supporter Nasser Amiri, a hospital clerk in Tehran.

Bringing any showdown into the streets would certainly face a swift backlash from security forces. The political chief of the powerful Revolutionary Guard cautioned Wednesday it would crush any "revolution" against the Islamic regime by Mousavi's "green movement" — the signature color of his campaign and the new banner for reformists seeking wider liberties at home and a gentler face for Iran abroad.

The Revolutionary Guard is the military wing directly under control of the ruling clerics and has vast influence in every corner of the country through a network of volunteer militias.

In Tehran, several Ahmadinejad supporters cruised the streets waving Iranian flags out of their car windows and shouting "Mousavi is dead!"

Mousavi appealed directly to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, to intervene and stop what he said were violations of the law. Khamenei holds ultimate political authority in Iran. "I hope the leader's foresight will bring this to a good end," Mousavi said.

Mousavi said some polling stations were closed early with people still waiting to vote, that voters were prevented from casting ballots and that his observers were expelled from some counting sites.

Iran does not allow international election monitors. During the 2005 election, when Ahmadinejad won the presidency, there were some allegations of vote rigging from losers, but the claims were never investigated.

'Robust debate'
The outcome will not sharply alter Iran's main policies or sway major decisions, such as possible talks with Washington or nuclear policies. Those crucial issues rest with the ruling clerics headed by the unelected Khamenei.

But the election focused on what the office can influence: boosting Iran's sinking economy, pressing for greater media and political freedoms, and being Iran's main envoy to the world.

Before the vote count, President Barack Obama said the "robust debate" during the campaign suggests a possibility of change in Iran, which is under intense international pressure over its nuclear program. There has been no comment from Washington since the results indicated re-election for Ahmadinejad.

The race will go to a runoff on June 19 if no candidate receives more than 50 percent of the vote. Two other candidates — conservative former Revolutionary Guard commander Mohsen Rezaei and moderate former parliament speaker Mahdi Karroubi — only got small fractions of the votes, according to the ministry.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31238321/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa//


Quote
Iran govt declared Ahmadinejad winner with 62 pct

20 minutes ago

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's government says incumbent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the winner of the election with a landslide 62.63 percent of the vote. Top opposition contender Mir Hossein Mousavi takes only 33.75 percent of vote in a result disputed by his supporters.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Anti-riot police guarded the offices overseeing Iran's disputed elections Saturday with the count pointing to a landslide victory by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad while his opponent denounced the results as "treason" and threatened a challenge.

The standoff left Tehran in tense anticipation. Many people opened shops and carried out errands, but the backdrop was far from normal: black-clad police gathering around key government buildings and mobile phone text messaging blocked in an apparent attempt to stifle one of the main communication tools of the pro-reform movement of Mir Hossein Mousavi.

A statement from Mousavi posted on his Web site urged his supporters to resist a "governance of lie and dictatorship."

Outside the Interior Ministry, which directed Friday's voting, security forces set up a cordon. The results had flowed quickly after polls closed showing the hard-line president with a comfortable lead — defying expectations of a nail-biter showdown following a month of fierce campaigning and bringing immediate charges of vote rigging by Mousavi.

But an expected announcement on the full outcome was temporarily put on hold. A reason for the delay was not made public, but it suggested intervention by Iran's Islamic authorities seeking to put the brakes on a potentially volatile showdown.

Ahmadinejad had the apparent backing of the ruling theocracy, which holds near-total power and would have the ability to put the election results on the slow track.

There were no immediate reports of serious clashes or mass protests, and the next step by Mousavi's backers were unclear. Mousavi, who became the hero of a powerful youth-driven movement, had not made a public address or issued messages since declaring himself the true victor moments after polls closed and accusing authorities of "manipulating" the vote.

Along Tehran's Vali Asr St. — where Mousavi supporters joined in a massive campaign rally earlier this week — an Associated Press photographer saw police clubbing and chasing people. The reasons for the action was unclear. There were no signs of a demonstration or green-colored banners and clothing — the color of Mousavi's "green" campaign following.

"I'm warning that I won't surrender to this manipulation," said the Mousavi statement Saturday. "The outcome of what we've seen from the performance of officials ... is nothing but shaking the pillars of the Islamic Republic of Iran sacred system and governance of lie and dictatorship."

He warned "people won't respect those who take power through fraud" and called the decision to announce Ahmadinejad winner of the election was a "treason to the votes of the people."

The headline on one of Mousavi's Web sites: "I wont give in to this dangerous manipulation." Mousavi and key aides could not be reached by phone.

It was even unclear how many Iranians were even aware of Mousavi's claims of fraud. Communications disruptions began in the later hours of voting Friday — suggesting an information clampdown. State television and radio only broadcast the Interior Ministry's vote count and not Mousavi's midnight press conference.

Nationwide, the text messaging system remained down Saturday and several pro-Mousavi Web sites were blocked or difficult to access. Text messaging is frequently used by many Iranians — especially young Mousavi supporters — to spread election news.

At Tehran University — the site of the last major anti-regime unrest in Tehran in 1999 — the academic year was winding down and there was no sign of pro-Mousavi crowds. But university exams, scheduled to begin Saturday, were postponed until next month around the country.

By Saturday afternoon, Iran's Interior Ministry said Ahmadinejad had about 63 percent of the vote and Mousavi had just under 35 percent with about 91 percent of all votes counted. The ministry also updated its voter turnout figures. Minister Sadeq Mahsouli said 85 percent of Iran's 46.2 million eligible voters went to the polls — setting a new record. On Friday, many polling stations were jammed packed with people waiting several hours to cast their ballots.

The state-run Islamic Republic News Agency reported that Ahmadinejad plans a public address on Sunday in Tehran.

At a press conference, Mousavi declared himself "definitely the winner" based on "all indications from all over Iran." He accused the government of "manipulating the people's vote" to keep Ahmadinejad in power and suggested the reformist camp would stand up to challenge the results.

"It is our duty to defend people's votes. There is no turning back," Mousavi said, alleging widespread irregularities.

Mousavi's backers were stunned at Interior Ministry's results after widespread predictions of a close race — or even a slight edge to Mousavi.

"Many Iranians went to the people because they wanted to bring change. Almost everybody I know voted for Mousavi but Ahmadinejad is being declared the winner. The government announcement is nothing but widespread fraud. It is very, very disappointing. I'll never ever again vote in Iran," said Mousavi supporter Nasser Amiri, a hospital clerk in Tehran.

Bringing any showdown into the streets would certainly face a swift backlash from security forces. The political chief of the powerful Revolutionary Guard cautioned Wednesday it would crush any "revolution" against the Islamic regime by Mousavi's "green movement," which seeks wider liberties at home and a gentler face for Iran abroad.

The Revolutionary Guard is the military wing directly under control of the ruling clerics and has vast influence in every corner of the country through a network of volunteer militias.

In Tehran, several Ahmadinejad supporters cruised the streets waving Iranian flags out of car windows and shouting "Mousavi is dead!"

Mousavi appealed directly to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, to intervene and stop what he said were violations of the law. Khamenei holds ultimate political authority in Iran. "I hope the leader's foresight will bring this to a good end," Mousavi said.

Iran does not allow international election monitors. During the 2005 election, when Ahmadinejad won the presidency, there were some allegations of vote rigging from losers, but the claims were never investigated.

The outcome will not sharply alter Iran's main policies or sway major decisions, such as possible talks with Washington or nuclear policies. Those crucial issues rest with the ruling clerics headed by the unelected Khamenei.

But the election focused on what the office can influence: boosting Iran's sinking economy, pressing for greater media and political freedoms, and being Iran's main envoy to the world.

Before the vote count, President Barack Obama said the "robust debate" during the campaign suggests a possibility of change in Iran, which is under intense international pressure over its nuclear program. There has been no comment from Washington since the results indicated re-election for Ahmadinejad.

The race will go to a runoff on June 19 if no candidate receives more than 50 percent of the vote. Two other candidates — conservative former Revolutionary Guard commander Mohsen Rezaei and moderate former parliament speaker Mahdi Karroubi — only got small fractions of the votes, according to the ministry.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jGSJEAPs_r2T2wxsL5G3t4z-jajQD98PP3OG1
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 09:31:03 AM
The more I think about it, the more it doesn't really make sense to me that they'd fix the elections.  We all know that in a sense the whole Iranian political system is itself fixed, but that's implemented as a wrapper around the elections, the pre-/post- hooks being the vetting of candidates by the Guardian Council and the presidents' lack of ultimate power.  With those in place, I don't see why they'd need to fix the election itself, especially since Mousavi doesn't seem to be outside the range of presidents they've let in in the past, and rigging things seems to run more risk of instability than giving people a moderate establishment outlet for their discontent would.  What am I missing?
Well the Supreme Leader made it clear he wanted  Ameejddidiidijdjajdad to be re-elected there could be that motivation.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 13, 2009, 11:14:13 AM
I'm not going to just automatically believe the votes were tampered with because some large groups of opposition appeared for rallies.

The fact that the margins were similar to 2005 makes me think that either the vote was rigged (but would be dumb to keep at the same percentages) or the same groups of people voted for the same types of candidates last time.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 11:27:43 AM
I'm not going to just automatically believe the votes were tampered with because some large groups of opposition appeared for rallies.

That's not the on;y thng that happened. Riot police started destroying their cars, the govt. shut off all their websites and closed down their cellphone accounts of the campaign so they can't contact anyone. That is fishy stuff.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 12:56:11 PM
To give the other side.

Quote
Wishful thinking from Tehran

Since the revolution, academics and pundits have predicted the collapse of the Iranian regime. This week, they did no better

I have been in Iran for exactly one week covering the 2009 Iranian election carnival. Since I arrived, few here doubted that the incumbent firebrand President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad would win. My airport cab driver reminded me that the president had visited every province twice in the last four years – "Iran isn't Tehran," he said. Even when I asked Mousavi supporters if their man could really carry more than capital, their responses were filled with an Obamasque provisional optimism – "Yes we can", "I hope so", "If you vote." So the question occupying the international media, "How did Mousavi lose?" seems to be less a problem of the Iranian election commission and more a matter of bad perception rooted in the stubborn refusal to understand the role of religion in Iran.

Of course, the rather real possibility of voter fraud exists and one must wait in the coming weeks to see how these allegations unfold. But one should recall that in three decades of presidential elections, the accusations of rigging have rarely been levied against the vote count. Elections here are typically controlled by banning candidates from the start or closing opposition newspapers in advance.

In this election moreover, there were two separate governmental election monitors in addition to observers from each camp to prevent mass voter fraud. The sentimental implausibility of Ahmedinejad's victory that Mousavi's supporters set forth as the evidence of state corruption must be met by the equal implausibility that such widespread corruption could take place under clear daylight. So, until hard evidence emerges that can substantiate the claims of the opposition camp we need to look to other reasons to explain why so many are stunned by the day's events.

As far as international media coverage is concerned, it seems that wishful thinking got the better of credible reporting. It is true that Mousavi supporters jammed Tehran traffic for hours every night over the last week, though it was rarely mentioned that they did so only in the northern well-to-do neighborhoods of the capital. Women did relax their head covers and young men did dance in the street.

On Monday night at least 100,000 of the former prime minister's supporters set up a human chain across Tehran. But, hours before I had attended a mass rally for the incumbent president that got little to no coverage in the western press because, on account of the crowds, he never made it inside the hall to give his speech. Minimal estimates from that gathering have been placed at 600,000 (enthusiasts say a million). From the roof I watched as the veiled women and bearded men of all ages poured like lava.

But the failure to properly gauge Iran's affairs is hardly a new phenomenon. When the 1979 revolution shattered the military dictatorship of America's strongest ally in the region few experts outside of the country suspected that the Islamic current would emerge as the leading party.

But in Iran, even the secular intellectual Jalal Al-e Ahmad, author of the infamous Occidentosis predicted the collapse of the regime at the hands of Islamic movement well over a decade before the fateful events of 1979. The maverick French philosopher, Michel Foucault, also made the right bet as he reported the events from the street – an insight that his many admirers still shy from. Since the revolution, academics, intellectuals and pundits have predicted the imminent collapse of the regime. As of today, they have done no better.

Such anomalies can only be explained by a longue duree. Iran is a deeply religious society. Of the Shah's mistakes nepotism, autocracy, and repression were fought by communists and liberals for decades with no success, but it was his attack on the religious establishment that led to his almost overnight demise.

Since then common Iranians have applied their ideals through the ballot box. In 1997 as the ashes of the Iran-Iraq war settled and the country saw a decade relative stability, voters came out in mass to support the former president-cleric Khatami against his rival, Natiq Nouri, a senior member of the establishment. Western reporters saw this in terms of a grand generational divide: young freedom loving liberals against elder conservative clerics. But it was really a vote for the ideal of honesty and piety against allegations of entrenched corruption. Many of those same Khatami supporters voted for Ahmedinejad yesterday, despite the fact that Khatami's face was on every one of Mousavi's campaign posters.

For over a week the same social impulses of anti-corruption, populism, and religious piety that led to the revolution have been on the streets available to anyone who wanted to report on them. Ahmedinejad, for most in the country, embodies those ideals. Since he came into office he has refused to wear a suit, refused to move out of the home he inherited from his father, and has refused to tone down the rhetoric he uses against those he accuses of betraying the nation. When he openly accused his towering rival, Ayatollah Hashemi Rafsanji, a lion of the revolution himself, of parasitical corruption and compared his betrayal to the alleged deception against the Prophet Muhammad that led to the Sunni-Shia split 1,400 years ago, he unleashed a popular impulse that has held the imagination of the masses here for generations. That Rafsanji defended himself through Mousavi's newspaper meant the end for the reformists.

In the last week Ahmedinejad turned the election into a referendum on the very project of Iran's Islamic revolution. Their street chants yelled "Death to all those against the Supreme Leader" followed by traditional Shia rituals and elegies. It was no match for the high-spirited fun-loving youth of northern Tehran who sang "Ahmedi-bye-bye, Ahmedi-bye-bye" or "ye hafte-do hafte, Mahmud hamum na-rafte" (One week, two weeks, Mahmoud hasn't taken a shower).

Perhaps from the start Mousavi was destined to fail as he hoped to combine the articulate energies of the liberal upper class with the business interests of the bazaar merchants. The Facebook campaigns and text-messaging were perfectly irrelevant for the rural and working classes who struggle to make a day's ends meet, much less have the time to review the week's blogs in an internet cafe. Although Mousavi tried to appeal to such classes by addressing the problems of inflation and poverty, they voted otherwise.

In the future, observers would do us a favour by taking a deeper look into Iranian society, giving us a more accurate picture of the very organic religious structures of the country, and dispensing with the narrative of liberal inevitability. It is the religious aspects of enigmatic Persia that helped put an 80-year-old exiled ascetic at the head of state 30 years ago, then the charismatic cleric Khatami in office 12 years ago, the honest son of a blacksmith – Ahmedinejad – four years ago, and the same yesterday.

• Abbas Barzegar is a PhD candidate in religious studies at Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/13/iranian-election
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 13, 2009, 01:15:34 PM
eh, fuck it
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 01:26:07 PM
American officials are on the media describing this as coup like and not a real democratic election. Things are getting a bit crazy. Sounds like America's official stance won't be to recognize the election results as legitimate.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 01:32:03 PM
American officials are on the media describing this as coup like and not a real democratic election. Things are getting a bit crazy. Sounds like America's official stance won't be to recognize the election results as legitimate.

Like I said I'm not very big on Iran when it comes to elections and fairness. It's a rigged system from the start and its not especially open so that doesn't give me very much confidence in the end results. If you cheat at the actual process I'm willing to entertain the idea that you're willing to cheat on the end results.

That being said, it's also hard for me to dismiss as an outsider the idea that perhaps Ahmadinejad symbolizes and represents what the mass of Iranian people want at this moment. Similar to the way as I keep bringing it up that George Bush represented what the American people wanted in 2004, however misguided or ignornant what we wanted at that time was.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 13, 2009, 02:23:59 PM
Quote
My airport cab driver reminded me that the president had visited every province twice in the last four years – "Iran isn't Tehran," he said.

Interesting. The articles posted a couple days ago said the rural areas featured more folks than the cities. Seems like the reports were correct about many people wanting change, they just didn't acknowledge than even more didn't want change.

We won't know whether there was vote tampering or not for a few days right, although the communications shutdown seems fishy as hell. I wonder if Mousavi knows whether this was a set up or not. Declaring the results to be false is just gonna throw things into turmoil.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 04:55:47 PM
Well the Iranian Electoral Commission is saying the entire election was a fraud and a set-up and says a re-vote needs to be taken place.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 13, 2009, 04:57:18 PM
Oh and Mousavi has been arrested
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 05:13:06 PM
I'm not going to just automatically believe the votes were tampered with because some large groups of opposition appeared for rallies.

Yep.  Losing coalitions in big countries can still put together big demonstrations, and visible enthusiasm doesn't always translate to raw numbers.  Ron Paul, anyone?

To give the other side.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/13/iranian-election

Good article, and a reminder that we tend to oversimplify foreign politics and shoehorn them into familiar narratives.*  For all the talk of Mousavi's base being in the cities, every member of Tehran's city council belongs to Ahmadinejad's political party.

So there's a dimension that more closely resembles old-style urban machine politics, or third-world patrimony, than it does a reformers vs. reactionaries fight.


Quote from: Cheebs
Well the Iranian Electoral Commission is saying the entire election was a fraud and a set-up and says a re-vote needs to be taken place.

Where you reading that?





*Yes I'm the guy who posted two "Ahmadinejad is Bush" stories.  I still think the TNR one is good and the similarities are pretty instructive.  Anyways, I contain multitudes.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on June 13, 2009, 05:16:07 PM
Did someone say Ron Paul?  :hyper

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I kid I kid
[close]

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 05:45:26 PM
This is gonna be nasty.

.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 05:58:17 PM
Some links.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/dreyfuss/443348
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/06/vote-iran
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/13/official-obama-administration-skeptical-irans-election-results/
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE55C1Z220090613?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124486223846612095.html#mod=rss_whats_news_us
http://niacblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/election-liveblogging-saturday/
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 06:51:11 PM
Juan Cole (http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html) argues that the election was probably stolen.

Cole carries a lot of weight with me but I'm not totally convinced.  I'd like to see the results broken down in detail along with the last couple elections to see if there are any wild disparities.

Of course Iran probably doesn't release anything like that (results by city are being reported but it seems really piecemeal) and I've just been spoiled by Nate Silver's spreadsheet porn.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 13, 2009, 06:57:59 PM
Juan Cole (http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html) argues that the election was probably stolen.

Cole carries a lot of weight with me but I'm not totally convinced.  I'd like to see the results broken down in detail along with the last couple elections to see if there are any wild disparities.

Of course Iran probably doesn't release anything like that (results by city are being reported but it seems really piecemeal) and I've just been spoiled by Nate Silver's spreadsheet porn.
That's ultimately the problem. That in a "vote" like this in society like that, its very hard to trust results because the governing powers cloak so much in mystery.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 13, 2009, 07:11:59 PM
Quote from: Cheebs
Well the Iranian Electoral Commission is saying the entire election was a fraud and a set-up and says a re-vote needs to be taken place.
Where you reading that?
yeah, is this even directly from the Electoral Commission or what?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 13, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
Okay, here is my current Official Stance on the issue.

It's totally plausible that Ahmadinejad would win as many votes as has been reported in the official totals.

It's totally plausible that fraud would be committed to benefit Ahmadinejad and the official totals are bogus.

There is nothing right now that is dispositive either way and there probably never will be.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 13, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
I don't know a whole lot about Iranian politics and whether Mousavi's urban base was as large as people were suggesting it was.  Same goes for underplaying Ahmadinejad in the cities as well.

I just know that, as I said before with the previous election, that Iranian reform seems to get overplayed.  Maybe it is because the west really hopes that Iran will reform so as a result, some of the coverage tends to exaggerate a bit that Iran is headed down that path.  Also, Ahmadinejad's economic decisions may not necessary cause votes for the opposition.  A lot of working and lower class families voted for Reagan in 1984 and Bush in 2004, despite arguments that can be made that their economic decisions made their lives harder in their first terms.

I'm just not convinced that Ahmadinejad stole the election.  It is unlikely though that we would ever get to the bottom of this, given how illiberal Iran tends to be.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 14, 2009, 12:25:45 AM
Quote
There can be no question that the June 12, 2009 Iranian presidential election was stolen. Dissident employees of the Interior Ministry, which is under the control of President Ahmadinejad and is responsible for the mechanics of the polling and counting of votes, have reportedly issued an open letter saying as much. Government polls (one conducted by the Revolutionary Guards, the other by the state broadcasting company) that were leaked to the campaigns allegedly showed ten- to twenty-point leads for Mousavi a week before the election; earlier polls had them neck and neck, with Mousavi leading by one per cent, and Karroubi just behind.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/06/laura-secor-irans-stolen-election.html

edit: also from TPM

Quote
Moreover, in a protest against election results Iran's Hashemi Rafsanjani resigned from his posts as the chairman of the Assembly of Experts and as head of the Expediency Discernment Council, the two most influential institutions in the country.

edit again

Quote
Iran expert Gary Sick has a new post up taking stock of what's happened over the last 48 hours and what decisions confront the key players in the drama. I won't try to summarize it. But in his reconstruction of events he does say (what I'd heard earlier but not in a way that seemed reliable) that the Mousavi campaign was apparently notified by election officials that they had won only to see Interior Ministry officials announce an Ahmadinejad victory just a short time later.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 14, 2009, 12:49:45 AM
Quote from: Laura Secor
If the current figures are to be believed, urban Iranians who voted for the reformist ex-president Mohammad Khatami in 1997 and 2001 have defected to Ahmadinejad in droves.

This is exactly what I was talking about.  She's trying to illustrate how improbable this shift would be when Khatami voters already defected to Ahmadinejad in 2005.

She's whittling away at the complexities of another countries politics until they fit into an easy, familiar shape.

Sick's piece is a bit better but I don't think he's actually gotten any new information about Mousavi's campaign being told they won.  Looks like he's just repeating what we already heard, and some people attach more credibility to it because of his expertise.






edit:  It's getting to the point where the fraud itself will be a moot point.  Iran's been so heavy-handed in trying to squash any unrest that it's going to create the impression of fraud and things will go from there.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on June 14, 2009, 01:27:18 AM
Quote
The more I think about it, the more it doesn't really make sense to me that they'd fix the elections.  We all know that in a sense the whole Iranian political system is itself fixed, but that's implemented as a wrapper around the elections, the pre-/post- hooks being the vetting of candidates by the Guardian Council and the presidents' lack of ultimate power.  With those in place, I don't see why they'd need to fix the election itself, especially since Mousavi doesn't seem to be outside the range of presidents they've let in in the past, and rigging things seems to run more risk of instability than giving people a moderate establishment outlet for their discontent would.  What am I missing?

I have to say this argument has been pretty much refuted by events -- Mousavi's call for resistance (compare to, say, Gore), Mousavi's and Karoubi's house arrest, and Rafsanjani's resignation clearly indicate a serious rift within the Iranian elite.  I guess a substantial section of the elite came to the conclusion that the hard-line faction represented by Ahmadinejad was harmful to their interests and had to go (sort of like how business leaders, the press, etc. decided Bush had to go in 2006-8).  Ahmadenijad's faction may have decided to pre-empt them with a virtual coup.

(I know the US analogies are facile but uh mumble mumble mumble.  disclaimers about my not really knowing anything, etc. should be implicit by now)
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 14, 2009, 01:57:09 AM
Did someone say Ron Paul?  :hyper


His name is like the bat(shit insane) signal: it makes you appear every time.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 14, 2009, 02:07:49 AM
Ahmadinejad ran as an outsider in 2005 and his faction is generally composed of younger politicians who aren't clerics.  So he was seen as a challenge to the old order of revolution-era ayatollahs.

Khamenei almost certainly support Rafsanjani in 2005, and he criticized Ahmadinejad's firing of Ari Larijani as chief nuclear negotiator.  So the two are far from completely sympatico.

But Juan Cole says Khamenei and Mousavi have a going back to the 80's, and it's possible that the tenor of the campaign changed so much in the final weeks that people who chose not to block Mousavi's candidacy earlier changed their minds.

The communications shutdown, use of the IRGC and the proclamation from Khamenei show that there's a co-ordinated effort to establish control coming from the national level.  I wonder how much the IRGC leadership is involved, since I think they have a monopoly on providing cell phone service in Iran (their version of the Army Corps of Engineers is big into business and patronage).

Everything is so opaque and Iran's system is so peculiar.  This has to be what Kremlinology was like.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: ToxicAdam on June 14, 2009, 03:57:32 AM
Mousavi had the "hot chick" vote all wrapped up.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_presidential_election.html
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Fresh Prince on June 14, 2009, 09:17:26 AM
Hmm Persian women do seem on average quite good looking.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 14, 2009, 11:51:12 AM
I was watching Biden on Meet The Press. He clearly seems to think the election was a fraud but is trying to keep his mouth shut  for obvious reasons is just calling the results as "unlikely" and that he has doubts that it was a valid election.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 15, 2009, 08:36:25 AM
Well there is this at least. You have to of course be skeptical that this will simply be an attempt to whitewash any wrong doings and confirm the results rather than turn up actual fraud but I guess its better than nothing.

Quote
In about-face, Khamenei backs vote fraud probe
After initially welcoming results, Iran’s supreme leader orders investigation

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's state television said Monday that the supreme leader ordered an investigation into claims of fraud in last week's presidential election.

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei ordered the powerful Guardian Council to examine the allegations by pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, who has claimed widespread vote rigging in Friday's election. The government declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner in a landslide victory.

It was a stunning turnaround for Iran's most powerful figure, who previously welcomed the results.


The outcome of the election has disconcerted Western powers trying to induce the world's fifth-biggest oil exporter to curb its nuclear program. President Barack Obama had urged Iran's leadership "to unclench its fist" for a new start in ties.

Mousavi wrote an appeal Sunday to the Guardian Council, a powerful 12-member body that is a pillar of Iran's theocracy. Mousavi also met Sunday with Khamenei.

Vice President Joe Biden said Sunday that Obama's effort to engage Tehran after a nearly three-decade estrangement would continue, regardless of the election's result. Obama, shifting course from his predecessor, has said he wants to talk to the theocratic regime in Tehran, with the central goal of stopping it from producing a nuclear weapon. He has set a year-end deadline for a positive response to his overture.

Biden told NBC's "Meet the Press" that the administration was still examining whether Friday's vote in Iran accurately reflected a response to Obama's desire for engagement.

"That's the question," Biden said. "Is this the result of the Iranian people's wishes? The hope is that the Iranian people, all their votes have been counted, they've been counted fairly. But look, we just don't know enough."

He said the United States had no choice right now but to accept the outcome as announced, but, Biden said, "I have doubts" about its fairness.

Mousavi's backers have waged three days of street protests in Tehran.

Protest rally postponed in Tehran
The defeated candidate's supporters called off a planned protest rally in Tehran on Monday after the Interior Ministry declared it would be illegal and treated as sedition.

A Mousavi Web site said the gathering had been delayed after the Interior Ministry refused to authorize it.


The European Union urged Iran not to use violence against those protesting against the disputed election and urged the authorities to look into complaints of irregularities.

"I have thorough respect for all the Iranian citizens who have shown their discontent and have demonstrated peacefully," EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner told reporters in Luxembourg. "I do hope that the security forces will refrain from showing violence."

The Guardian Council, whose chairman, Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, endorsed Ahmadinejad before the vote, said it would rule within 10 days on two official complaints it had received from Mousavi and another losing candidate, Mohsen Rezaie.

"Mousavi and Rezaie appealed yesterday. After the official announcement (of the appeal) the Guardian Council has seven to 10 days to see if it was a healthy election or not," ISNA news agency quoted council spokesman Abbasali Kadkhodai as saying


Guardian council's role
The council vets election candidates and must formally approve results for the outcome to stand. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei earlier told Iranians to support Ahmadinejad.

On Sunday, Mousavi's supporters handed out leaflets calling for a rally in downtown Tehran on Monday afternoon. The protests over the last two days are the sharpest show of discontent against the Islamic Republic's leadership for years.

"The Interior Ministry issued a statement and said no permission had been issued for a rally ... The holding of such a gathering would be illegal," state radio said.

"Some seditious elements had planned to hold a rally and by fabrication said they had permission from the Interior Ministry. Any disrupter of public security would be dealt with according to the law," it said.

Mousavi urged Iranians on Sunday to keep up nationwide protests "in a peaceful and legal way."

Last week a senior Revolutionary Guard official vowed to foil what he called an attempt by Mousavi and his supporters in the streets to stage a "velvet revolution" — the name given to Czechoslovakia's non-violent 1989 revolution against communism.

Protests, clashes
Pro-Mousavi demonstrators threw stones at police at Tehran University on Sunday and clashed with Ahmadinejad supporters on a main avenue that was littered with broken glass and fires.

In the north of the capital, a stronghold of Mousavi backers, riot police patrolled after midnight. Garbage burned in the street, some cars had their windows broken, and police blocked access to roads.

After dusk, some Mousavi supporters took to rooftops across Tehran calling out "Allahu Akbar" (God is greatest), an echo of tactics by protesters in the 1979 Islamic revolution.

U.S. leaders have shown caution in their comments on the election so far, in the hope of keeping alive Obama's strategy of engagement with Iran, with tougher talk coming from Europe.

Germany, one of Iran's biggest trading partners and a negotiator in the West's nuclear talks with Tehran, said it had summoned the Iranian ambassador on Sunday.

"We are looking toward Tehran with great concern at the moment. There are a lot of reports about electoral fraud," Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told German ZDF TV.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31365097/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Cheebs on June 15, 2009, 10:13:53 AM
He is probably just saying it to shut people up and end the chaos, I doubt anything will come of it.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 15, 2009, 11:43:31 AM
Well they obviously need the 10 days to forger the votes but ultimately, they may throw Ahmadinejad under the bus and do a revote.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Beardo on June 15, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
A lot of people have been claiming that the American media hasn't been covering the elections. I just want to point out that Drudge.com has been showcasing the election extensively.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Stoney Mason on June 15, 2009, 01:56:45 PM
A lot of people have been claiming that the American media hasn't been covering the elections. I just want to point out that Drudge.com has been showcasing the election extensively.

Actually he was quite slow to cover it in comparison to some other sites and only shifted relatively recently. He's covered minor stories in the past a lot more than this and more quickly.

I've been checking the onlines sites quite a bit and initially noticed how relatively little coverage he gave the story in headlines form.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 15, 2009, 02:38:13 PM
Drudge's initial motive was to cover it as an embarrassment/failure to Obama, but now he's shifted attention because there's a bigger issue at hand there. Even now he's up to his old tricks, like the current "MOUSAVI SEEKS FATWA..." headline.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2009, 04:14:58 PM
cnn has had the most coverage from what i've seen
fox has been all over healthcare and palin
and the rest is pretty much E! network level stuff

the attention whoring of websites has kept me from botherin with them


Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mr. Gundam on June 15, 2009, 10:00:57 PM
BBC World News and News Hour with Jim Lehrer have been pretty damn incredible.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 16, 2009, 12:33:17 AM
Fraud or not, it's nice to see the protesters showing a bit of spine.  I hope the elites feel enough pressure that they decide to accommodate the reform movement rather than crack down on it.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on June 16, 2009, 12:52:29 AM
awesome pic

(http://6.media.tumblr.com/WS7ReC9ySorh66exlus4RBEPo1_500.jpg)

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: CurseoftheGods on June 16, 2009, 12:54:46 AM
awesome pic

http://6.media.tumblr.com/WS7ReC9ySorh66exlus4RBEPo1_500.jpg



:(
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on June 16, 2009, 12:57:15 AM
What do you mean :(?

Look at that smile. Despite all the shit she has to face simply because she's a woman, she still has the balls to go out there and fight for what she believes in.

That pic will be famous one day.

 
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: CurseoftheGods on June 16, 2009, 01:09:28 AM
Sorry, I feel bad seeing women with black eyes. Didn't know feeling that way was so wrong and unnatural.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on June 16, 2009, 01:15:18 AM
*sigh* whatever
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 16, 2009, 01:18:44 AM
Hmm Persian women do seem on average quite good looking.

Average?

I'm going to make several assumptions: Most photographers in Iran are male, and they are likely to take pictures of any photogenic women they can find among the crowds of voters. Then male publishers sift through these photos and publish pictures of the most beautiful Iranian women they can find. (Why else do so many Iranian-Canadian chicks look like amnintenho?)

Average nothing!
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2009, 02:19:30 AM
I dunno

My persian-american female friends are normally hawt.

Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 16, 2009, 02:32:38 AM
I dunno

My persian-american female friends are normally hawt.



1. that can't possibly be a very large sample
2. post pics or shut up.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 16, 2009, 02:40:55 AM
Malek is correct.  His name is arabic so he has some actual credibility on this.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 16, 2009, 03:04:26 AM
Malek is correct.  His name is arabic so he has some actual credibility on this.

But I'm not Arabic and neither are Iranians!
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2009, 03:13:02 AM
Yeah.... posting pics would be creepy.  And one of them is less a friend and more a chick I flirted with that turned out a bit crazy and might hunt me down if I posted pics.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 16, 2009, 03:18:09 AM
too bad Malek can't use his analytical knowledge to actually get a woman.  :)
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 16, 2009, 03:29:00 AM
Fraud or not, it's nice to see the protesters showing a bit of spine.  I hope the elites feel enough pressure that they decide to accommodate the reform movement rather than crack down on it.
what do you mean by accommodate?

Malek is correct.  His name is arabic so he has some actual credibility on this.

But I'm not Arabic and neither are Iranians!
Well they don't know that.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 16, 2009, 03:40:59 AM
am nintenho:  To treat the reformist movement as a group that needs to be co-opted or appeased, rather than something that can be stamped out.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2009, 03:45:40 AM
The question is what would appease them? If they don't trust the results, would they trust an investigation?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 16, 2009, 03:56:13 AM
I'm not talking about just the reaction to these specific events.

If the Iranian elites see the reform movement as tenuous enough that they can end it with more oppression, that's what they'll do.

If they see it as an intractable fact, they will have to tolerate some level of activity of liberal political parties and other aspects of a civil society.  Long term, that's the only way Iran moves towards freedom.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 16, 2009, 09:10:27 AM
I don't expect much from this.  Still, the fact that they are even addressing that there might be voter fraud I think goes a long way.

awesome pic

http://6.media.tumblr.com/WS7ReC9ySorh66exlus4RBEPo1_500.jpg



:(

Maybe she fell down a flight of stairs.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Tauntaun on June 16, 2009, 12:48:29 PM
awesome pic

(http://6.media.tumblr.com/WS7ReC9ySorh66exlus4RBEPo1_500.jpg)

Guess she's already been told once.  :smug

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:-\
[close]
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 16, 2009, 08:06:19 PM
am nintenho:  To treat the reformist movement as a group that needs to be co-opted or appeased, rather than something that can be stamped out.
The problem is that nobody can actually prove that there was ANY election fraud.  Who knows how accurate the "official" leaked numbers of Mousavi are?  In the future, people will question if the election was valid but Ahmadinejad will still be the president for another term.

Also, the idea that this will bring on any real secularization doesn't make any sense.  Both candidates firmly believe in the idea of an Islamic state.
Title: Sometimes I think y'all just tune me out.
Post by: Mandark on June 17, 2009, 01:35:02 AM
Argh, you're not even reading my posts.

My point was, "fraud or not", that the protests have a chance of creating an impression in the minds of Iranian leaders that there is a reform movement that is sufficiently large and uncowed to be able to make demands of the political system.

It has nothing to do with the actual results of the election, and very little to do with the government's actions in the immediate aftermath.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 17, 2009, 02:27:58 AM
It's pretty unfortunate that one of the features of a closed society is the lack of hard information for the opposition to latch onto. It seems like absent of that the opposition protests will be suppressd/dampened just long enough for them to fizzle out.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 17, 2009, 10:39:23 AM
Quote
How much attention do elections in Japan, India, Argentina, or any other country, get from the U.S. media?  How many Americans and American journalists even know who is in political office in other countries besides England, France, and Germany?  Who can name the political leaders of Switzerland, Holland, Brazil, Japan, or even China?

Yet, many know of Iran’s President Ahmadinejad.  The reason is obvious.  He is daily demonized in the U.S. media.

The U.S. media’s demonization of Ahmadinejad itself demonstrates American ignorance. The President of Iran is not the ruler.  He is not the commander-in-chief of the armed forces.  He cannot set policies outside the boundaries set by Iran’s rulers, the ayatollahs who are not willing for the Iranian Revolution to be overturned by American money in some color-coded “revolution.”

Iranians have a bitter experience with the United States government.  Their first democratic election, after emerging from occupied and colonized status in the 1950s, was overturned by the U.S. government.  The U.S. government installed in place of the elected candidate a dictator who tortured and murdered dissidents who thought Iran should be an independent country and not ruled by an American puppet.

The U.S. “superpower” has never forgiven the Iranian Islamic ayatollahs for the Iranian Revolution in the late 1970s, which overthrew the U.S. puppet government and held hostage U.S. embassy personnel, regarded as “a den of spies,” while Iranian students pieced together shredded embassy documents that proved America’s complicity in the destruction of Iranian democracy.

The government-controlled U.S. corporate media, a Ministry of Propaganda, has responded to the re-election of Ahmadinejad with non-stop reports of violent Iranians protests to a stolen election. A stolen election is presented as a fact, even thought there is no evidence for it whatsoever.  The U.S. media’s response to the documented stolen elections during the George W. Bush/Karl Rove era was to ignore the evidence of real stolen elections.

Leaders of the puppet states of Great Britain and Germany have fallen in line with the American psychological warfare operation.  The discredited British Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, expressed his “serioU.S. doubt” about Ahmadinejad’s victory to a meeting of European Union ministers in Luxembourg.  Miliband, of course, has no source of independent information.  He is simply following Washington’s instructions and relying on unsupported claims by the defeated candidate preferred by the U.S. Government.

Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany, had her arm twisted, too.  She called in the Iranian ambassador to demand “more transparency” on the elections.

Even the American left-wing has endorsed the U.S. government’s propaganda. Writing in The Nation, Robert Dreyfus’s presents the hysterical views of one Iranian dissident as if they are the definitive truth about “the illegitimate election,” terming it “a coup d’etat.”

What is the source of the information for the U.S. media and the American puppet states?

Nothing but the assertions of the defeated candidate, the one America prefers.

However, there is hard evidence to the contrary.  An independent, objective poll was conducted in Iran by American pollsters prior to the election. The pollsters, Ken Ballen of the nonprofit Center for Public Opinion and Patrick Doherty of the nonprofit New America Foundation, describe their poll results in the June 15 Washington Post.  The polling was funded by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and was conducted in Farsi “by a polling company whose work in the region for ABC News and the BBC has received an Emmy award.”*

The poll results, the only real information we have at this time, indicate that the election results reflect the will of the Iranian voters.  Among the extremely interesting information revealed by the poll is the following:

    “Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.

    “While Western news reports from Tehran in the days leading up to the voting portrayed an Iranian public enthusiastic about Ahmadinejad's principal opponent, Mir Hossein Moussavi, our scientific sampling from across all 30 of Iran's provinces showed Ahmadinejad well ahead.

    “The breadth of Ahmadinejad's support was apparent in our pre-election survey. During the campaign, for instance, Moussavi emphasized his identity as an Azeri, the second-largest ethnic group in Iran after Persians, to woo Azeri voters. Our survey indicated, though, that Azeris favored Ahmadinejad by 2 to 1 over MoU.S.avi.

    “Much commentary has portrayed Iranian youth and the Internet as harbingers of change in this election. But our poll found that only a third of Iranians even have access to the Internet, while 18-to-24-year-olds comprised the strongest voting bloc for Ahmadinejad of all age groups.

    “The only demographic groups in which our survey found Moussavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. When our poll was taken, almost a third of Iranians were also still undecided. Yet the baseline distributions we found then mirror the results reported by the Iranian authorities, indicating the possibility that the vote is not the product of widespread fraud.”

There have been numerous news reports that the U.S. government has implemented a program to destabilize Iran.  There have been reports that the U.S. government has financed bombings and assassinations within Iran. The U.S. media treats these reports in a braggadocio manner as illustrations of the American Superpower’s ability to bring dissenting countries to heel, while some foreign media see these reports as evidence of the U.S. government’s inherent immorality.

Pakistan’s former military chief, General Mirza Aslam Beig, said on Pashto Radio on Monday, June 15, that undisputed intelligence proves the U.S. interfered in the Iranian election. “The documents prove that the CIA spent 400 million dollars inside Iran to prop up a colorful but hollow revolution following the election.”

The success of the U.S. government in financing color revolutions in former Soviet Georgia and Ukraine and in other parts of the former Soviet empire have been widely reported and discussed, with the U.S. media treating it as an indication of U.S. omnipotence and natural right and some foreign media as a sign of U.S. interference in the internal affairs of other countries.  It is certainly within the realm of possibility that Mir Hossein Moussavi is a bought and paid for operative of the U.S. government.
We know for a fact that the U.S. government has psychological warfare operations that target both Americans and foreigners through the U.S. and foreign media.  Many articles have been published on this subject. 

Think about the Iranian election from a common sense standpoint.  Neither myself nor the vast majority of readers are Iranian experts.  But from a common sense standpoint, if your country was under constant threat of attack, even nuclear attack, from two countries with much more powerful military establishments, as is Iran from the U.S. and Israel, would you desert your country’s best defender and elect the preferred candidate of the U.S. and Israel?

Do you believe that the Iranian people would have voted to become an American puppet state?

Iran is an ancient and sophisticated society.  Much of the intellectual class is secularized.  A significant, but small, percentage of the youth has fallen in thrall to Western devotion to personal pleasure, and to self-absorption. These people are easily organized with American money to give their government and Islamic constraints on personal behavior the bird. 

The U.S. government is taking advantage of these westernized Iranians to create a basis for discrediting the Iranian election and the Iranian government.

On June 14, the McClatchy Washington Bureau, which sometimes attempts to report the real news, acquiesced to Washington’s psychological warfare and declared: “Iran election result makes Obama’s outreach efforts harder.” What we see here is the raising of the ugly head of the excuse for “diplomatic failure,” leaving only a military solution.

As a person who has seen it all from inside the U.S. government, I believe that the purpose of the U.S. government’s manipulation of the American and puppet government media is to discredit the Iranian government by portraying the Iranian government as an oppressor of the Iranian people and a frustrater of the Iranian people’s will.  This is how the U.S. government is setting up Iran for military attack. 

With the help of Moussavi, the U.S. government is creating another “oppressed people,” like Iraqis under Saddam Hussein, who require American lives and money  to liberate.  Has Moussavi, the American candidate in the Iranian election who was roundly trounced, been chosen by Washington to become the American puppet ruler of Iran? 

The great macho superpower is eager to restore its hegemony over the Iranian people, thus settling the score with the ayatollahs who overthrew American rule of Iran in 1978.
That is the script.  You are watching it every minute on U.S. television.

There is no end of “experts” to support the script.  For one example among hundreds, we have Gary Sick, who formerly served on the National Security Council and currently teaches at Columbia University:

"If they'd been a little more modest and said Ahmadinejad had won by 51 percent," Sick said, Iranians might have been dubious but more accepting. But the government's assertion that Ahmadinejad won with 62.6 percent of the vote, "is not credible."

"I think,” continued Sick,  “it does mark a real transition point in the Iranian Revolution, from a position of claiming to have its legitimacy based on the support of the population, to a position that has increasingly relied on repression. The voice of the people is ignored."

The only hard information available is the poll referenced above.  The poll found that Ahmadinejad was the favored candidate by a margin of two to one.

But as in everything else having to do with American hegemony over other peoples, facts and truth play no part.  Lies and propaganda rule.

Consumed by its passion for hegemony, America is driven prevail over others, morality and justice be damned. This world-threatening script will play until America bankrupts itself and has so alienated the rest of the world that it is isolated and universally despised.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts06162009.html (http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts06162009.html)

I know Paul Craig Roberts is a money guy but he raises good points about why anyone even cares about the elections in Iran. I don't necessarily agree with him on every point but he does have alot to say.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 17, 2009, 04:26:46 PM
Quote from: Paul Craig Roberts
A significant, but small, percentage of the youth has fallen in thrall to Western devotion to personal pleasure, and to self-absorption. These people are easily organized with American money to give their government and Islamic constraints on personal behavior the bird.

Roberts is just as invested in a pre-existing narrative as the people he's criticizing.  There's absolutely no evidence that US funding and support is behind the current protests.

It's the anti-imperialist left against the freedom-supporting liberals again.  We get to relive the pointless screaming matches over Reading Lolita In Tehran!  Wheeeeee!
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 17, 2009, 08:33:29 PM
I take it your not a fan of the anti-imperialist left?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:smug
[close]
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Veidt on June 17, 2009, 08:39:50 PM
Why is the world so interested in Iran all of a sudden? ???
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: etiolate on June 17, 2009, 08:57:52 PM
nuclear power + bloody images posted to web = interest
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Veidt on June 17, 2009, 08:58:51 PM
I like it. Simple and effective.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 17, 2009, 11:21:28 PM
Why is the world so interested in Iran all of a sudden? ???

I thought we were going to bring the light of liberty to N Korea first....guess I thought wrong.


Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 18, 2009, 02:38:22 AM
I take it your not a fan of the anti-imperialist left?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:smug
[close]

Actually, I sympathize with them more than the Samantha Powers interventionist left.  The instinct for the US not to get involved in other people's politics is a good one.

It's just that some very vocal, confrontational people on both sides tend to shoehorn everything into their preferred narratives.  For the interventionists it's about oppressed good guys and the dictators who will curbstomp them in the abscence of American peacekeeping forces.  For the Counterpunch crowd, it's about legitimate foreign governments being threatened by the imperialist kings of capital and their minions. 

But goddam, read that thing you posted.  "The puppet states of Great Britain and Germany"?  Really?

I do have to take back the bit about Roberts being on the left, though.  A quick check shows that he regularly appears on LewRockwell (!) and VDARE (!!!).  Oh, and he's a Troofer to boot.  A real Renaissance man.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 18, 2009, 11:35:01 AM
Regardless of his "Renaissance Man" status, which I agree goes a little too far... his statements about why the sudden interest in foreign elections for the usually flaccid American media still stands.


The sudden interest in the internal affairs of the Iranian political system from the media in this country - and their hard hitting in depth coverage smacks of the same great reporting concerning the internal affairs of Venezuela. I am not claiming that the opposition in Iran has no grievance - I am only agreeing with Roberts in that the way in which the media has filtered this down to bite sized right versus wrong.

Maybe their was fraud in the election.  I am not, and will not, claim otherwise.  But the absolute acceptance from our media that their just had to be fraud for the outcome to be what it was is way to simplistic.  Sure people yearn to be free - just look at our elections in 2000 and 2004....
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 18, 2009, 01:19:27 PM
The American media demonizes Ahmadinejad? He does a pretty good job of demonizing himself
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 18, 2009, 01:23:19 PM
separating rhetoric from real threats should be the job for the media, no?


...thats not to say that Ahmadinejad helps his cause...of course, I doubt some of the more callous statements are for our audience at all.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 18, 2009, 05:02:22 PM
Arde0:  The mainstream media's coverage has oversimplified things badly, but Roberts goes only "a little too far"?  Really?  Let's recap his thesis:

1)  The current US political elite is bent on an invasion to topple Iran's government, as revenge for ousting the Shah.

2)  This elite directly controls the media and is using coverage to prep the public for the invasion.

3)  They also control the "puppet state" of Great Britain.

4)  They also control the "puppet state" of Germany (so leaving them out of the Coalition of the Willing was a real clever double-reverse or something).

5)  They also control the Iranian opposition movement.


He's wrong on so many levels.  Is there any reason to take this guy more seriously than, say, Bill Kristol?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on June 18, 2009, 05:06:37 PM
Quote

4)  They also control the "puppet state" of Germany (so leaving them out of the Coalition of the Willing was a real clever double-reverse or something).

I guess you could say this resulted from a fissure within said elite that was healed (or resolved) with the election of Obama.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: huckleberry on June 18, 2009, 06:10:43 PM
Mandar - ok, now I understand where you are coming from.  I am not trying to defend the article, and will not.  I only posted it because of his touching on the media handling of the election.  Maybe I should have posted these, more relevant and cogent, articles. 

The "Bomb Iran" contingent's newfound concern for The Iranian People (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/16/iran/index.html)
The Iranian Elections and the Faith Based-Media (http://www.counterpunch.org/dimaggio06182009.html)

I think you have me confused with someone who wants to go to bat for someone else's opinion or statements.  That is not what I want to do here.  Just presenting the idea that some people believe this whole thing to be way more interesting to Americans, and American media, than is credible to believe.

I see from your post why you wouldn't like the article based on the amount of sheer leftist rhetoric that he writes.  This does not represent my viewpoint...I hope you know that.  I am not a person who lives and dies on rhetoric from anyone. On the contrary, I value hard facts - which is something that is just absolutely not present in the current reporting on the Iranian situation in general, and the election in particular.  Hopefully the articles I posted above will better illustrate that.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 18, 2009, 09:13:03 PM
(http://news.gooya.com/columnists/images/Ariya_melaat.jpg)

lol because the West should really intervene and force some more democracy.  Also, is it just me or do the Basiji's look like stereotypical nazi-literature jews?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 19, 2009, 04:31:01 AM
Arde0: Point taken.  Facts are being distorted all over, however.  Both Counterpunch pieces cite the Ballen/Doherty poll that had Ahmedinejad ahead of Mousavi 2 to 1, without mentioning that undecideds and supporters of other candidates totaled about 60%.

Anyway, the media here is covering it more because it's an event with a lot of conflict, good visuals, and an established starlet.

Ahmedinejad and Chavez gets coverage disproportionate to their actual power, and a lot of the blame should lie with editors, as well as hawkish pundits who are looking for villains.  But they've gone out of their way to position themselves as national and regional icons in the struggle against aggressive American hegemony.  The extra attention and outrage is something they've deliberately cultivated.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 19, 2009, 01:29:41 PM
wtf
Quote
WASHINGTON (AP) -- In the strongest message yet from the U.S. government, the House voted 405-1 Friday to condemn Tehran's crackdown on demonstrators and the government's interference with Internet and cell phone communications.

Quote
Rep. Ron Paul, a Texas libertarian, cast the sole opposing vote.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_US_IRAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-06-19-11-23-59
FoC redeemed :bow
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: AdmiralViscen on June 19, 2009, 06:02:51 PM
What's Paul's justification for that?!
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Flannel Boy on June 19, 2009, 06:16:05 PM
What's Paul's justification for that?!
Many libertarians have a need to maintain ideological purity. Since he's clearly against foreign interventionism, he can't support a simple condemnation, believing it's a form of intervention.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: brawndolicious on June 19, 2009, 06:57:08 PM
Well doing nothing for no reason is the price he has to pay for free publicity.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Crushed on June 19, 2009, 11:01:41 PM
world famous VAGINA-DOCTOR NO takes a stand for what's right. take that, filthy foreigners.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 20, 2009, 06:24:01 PM
19 people died in unrest Saturday in Tehran, hospital sources said. Unconfirmed reports put the death toll at 150.

Holy shit.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Mandark on June 20, 2009, 09:39:22 PM
If the protests continue, there's a good chance that number will seem very small.

I don't want to see them cowed into silence, but I don't see the regime letting this continue much further without violently squashing that.
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: CurseoftheGods on June 21, 2009, 02:13:13 AM
warning: very graphic

:nsfw

http://www.chillnite.com/young-iranian-protestor-is-shot-dead-in-tehran-very-graphic
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: Kestastrophe on June 21, 2009, 02:16:48 AM
 :'(

That's awful. Do you know where she was shot?
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: demi on June 21, 2009, 02:18:09 AM
I cant believe that's even on YouTube
Title: Re: It's the official Iranian election thread!
Post by: CurseoftheGods on June 21, 2009, 02:20:59 AM
:'(

That's awful. Do you know where she was shot?

A friend of mine just sent me this link:

http://primarysources.newsvine.com/_news/2009/06/20/2951910-her-name-was-neda

All the info that's known about her right now.