THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 12:04:34 PM

Title: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 12:04:34 PM: Why do Republicans care if insurance companies can't compete with public options?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Bocsius on June 24, 2009, 12:23:49 PM: Because republicans receive support from insurance companies. Who's going to contribute more to your campaign fund? Medicare or Blue Cross?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Mr. Gundam on June 24, 2009, 12:40:01 PM: Get a job, hippie.

But seriously, politicians are in bed with the insurance companies.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: archie4208 on June 24, 2009, 12:42:31 PM: if the government takes over healthcare you won't have any CHOICES or FREEDOM. granted you could go bankrupt if, god forbid, you are in a car wreck but think about the FREEDOM
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 12:49:20 PM: Who gives a shit about choices? I just want to be insured!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Bocsius on June 24, 2009, 12:51:16 PM: If everybody has something, what's there to have? :smug
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 01:05:57 PM: You'd think they'd love the idea. Let the market prevail through competition!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 01:07:09 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 01:05:57 PM
You'd think they'd love the idea. Let the market prevail through competition!

DO WE REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT RUNNING OUR HEALTH INSURANCE, LIKE THEY DO FOR ALL SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN!? THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Kestastrophe on June 24, 2009, 01:09:31 PM: Quote from: Willco on June 24, 2009, 01:07:09 PM
DO WE REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT RUNNING OUR HEALTH INSURANCE, LIKE THEY DO FOR ALL SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN!? THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT!
JUST LOOK AT USPS :smug

*rewind 6 years*

THE WAR IN IRAQ IS GOING FINE, GOVERNMENT SUCKS AT EVERYTHING BUT MAKING WAR

*rewind 1 year*

THE SURGE IS WORKING

etc,.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: muckhole on June 24, 2009, 01:11:39 PM: One of my American customers had car trouble recently, and as I drove him to the shop to pick up his truck, he brought up the subject of his astronomical health insurance fees, complaining about how he's damned if he pays, and damned if he doesn't.

I cautiously asked him for his thoughts on a universal health care plan not unlike what we have in Canada (admitting that it's far from perfect) and he began to backpedal furiously, saying that a socialist plan may work fine here, but it would never work in the U.S., because doctors need to be able to make money and he' rather pay through the nose for himself and his family as opposed to folks who didn't "earn" it.

Why he, a body shop repair owner, felt he needed to defend doctor's bottom lines was beyond me, and I didn't press the matter, only mentioning casually that any doctors I know most definitely aren't hurting for cash. I guess the idea of paying for people who won't contribute as much overall is a pretty big sticking point for lots of people.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 01:14:29 PM: The only real "argument" I've heard from people against health care is that they "don't want to pay for someone else's heath care". That's pretty ridiculous - why pay for someone else's child's education? Or police? Emergency services?

Not to mention, we'll be paying for everyone else's astronomical health care costs once they get older; an entire generation without preventative health care bleeding Medicare dry with ailments that could've been treated if we had a public option.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: muckhole on June 24, 2009, 01:17:08 PM: Yeah, it was an odd moment. He really got worked up on that point, which is why I just let the matter drop. That's going to be a pretty tough perception to change for some, from the looks of it.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Kestastrophe on June 24, 2009, 01:19:59 PM: Quote from: Willco on June 24, 2009, 01:14:29 PM
The only real "argument" I've heard from people against health care is that they "don't want to pay for someone else's heath care". That's pretty ridiculous - why pay for someone else's child's education? Or police? Emergency services?

Not only that, but I would argue that most insured people are subsidizing other's care already. I would argue that frequently ill persons are the first to buy insurance, which presents adverse selection in the insured pool.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 01:22:49 PM: Yup exactly: we already pay for other people's care whether it's emergency visits or public schools.

This is like green eggs and ham. Once people realize "hey, this isn't bad afterall and my doctor friends aren't in soup lines afterall!" things will be fine. And assuming it cuts costs and doesn't bring forth the end of the western world as we know it, how to republicans handle the issue in the future? Are they stuck with it, like SS and medicare?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 01:55:38 PM: The Republican arguments against health care reform are ridiculous.

BUT PRIVATER INSURERS WON'T BE ABLE TO COMPETE!

So? They've been screwing over middle America for years!

BUT BIG GOVERNMENT CAN'T RUN ANYTHING, ITS BEST LEFT TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR!

Why did we vote you into office then? Also, how do you like your government health insurance?

IT COSTS TOO MUCH AND WE WILL HAVE TO RAISE TAXES!

So you'd rather just heap the costs of an entire generation without preventative health care on my generation?

... Seriously, what the fuck.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 01:56:41 PM: Also, Republicans claim they love small businesses, which get crippled with health care costs that they really can't afford. Letting their employees take a public option frees up a lot of cash.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Fragamemnon on June 24, 2009, 02:04:23 PM: It also removes a HUGE competitive disadvantage for recruiting talent that small businesses have compared to large ones. You can't recruit white collar, highly-educated professionals into a job without good health insurance, which is FAR more easier to obtain for large businesses instead of small ones.

If we had a robust public option in health care, there would be a big shift towards more entrepreneurs and small businesses in the American economy. Which would be very good, as that's the engine for economic innovation and non-shitty jobs in this country.

anyway http://moonshinepatriot.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-press-conference-june-23-2009.html

Quote
well fuck if they can't compete with the government who they say can't do anything right then maybe they fucking suck

That's pretty much Obama's argument. Insurance companies' position on health care sits on totally tortured logic.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 02:06:30 PM: I think, more than anything, I am pretty upset that these so-called Democrats are discounting a public option.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 24, 2009, 02:10:19 PM: Haven't alot of 500 CEO's backed or at least backed off opposing a more public health care plan (despite ingrained instincts to oppose it.) Cultural disposition only goes enough past the bottom line, and the same excesses that are making healthcare unfordable for millions is also impacting corporations bottom line.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Van Cruncheon on June 24, 2009, 02:12:54 PM: yeah, the democrats are being really two-faced and slimy on the whole health care issue. obama needs to man the fuck up and demand single-payer.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 24, 2009, 02:16:04 PM: I'm normally a fan of not letting perfect being an obstacle for good, but if they're gonna cunt out and knee-jerkingly oppose any progress, why not set the goal posts further?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: TakingBackSunday on June 24, 2009, 02:17:36 PM: I don't really know much about how the system works, but what would happen if health care was made into a state-by-state issue, much like education is for the most part now? Is that a little too complex a system to uphold, especially with how the nature of our culture is much more national and, to a lesser degree, international?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 24, 2009, 02:20:32 PM: Quote from: BrandNew on June 24, 2009, 02:17:36 PM
I don't really know much about how the system works, but what would happen if health care was made into a state-by-state issue, much like education is for the most part now? Is that a little too complex a system to uphold, especially with how the nature of our culture is much more national and, to a lesser degree, international?

I'd be happy for this, but I'd wonder again how much incentive there'd be to move to health-generous states at times of need (the benefits of establishing an effective healthcare system probably outweighs any of these problems, but it's a question still worth asking)
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 02:22:20 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on June 24, 2009, 02:12:54 PM
yeah, the democrats are being really two-faced on slimy on the whole health care issue. obama needs to man the fuck up and demand single-payer.

bu bu bu I don't want to pay for you to go to the E.R. every day with fake, mystery ailments just because you have health care!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Van Cruncheon on June 24, 2009, 02:24:39 PM: bububububu i'm gonna go anyway and since i can't pay you'll still get stuck with the bill AHUAHUA

CURSE YOU LUCKY DUCKY
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Akala on June 24, 2009, 02:26:00 PM: Personally, I kind of think this whole thing is destined to fail, but really hope I'm wrong.

I don't understand why anyone who has dealt with health insurance for any extended period of time would possibly argue the position of the insurance companies unless fox news told them so. The greedy fucks are in need of an overhaul, and/or competition from outside the industry.

I do wonder that if this ever goes through, is there a chance of back-door medical cost reform? Any new government agency will have an incredible amount of clout from the jump and I think an attempt at price fixing/standardization may follow.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 02:47:38 PM: Good article
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/opinion/22krugman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Tauntaun on June 24, 2009, 02:50:55 PM: Cause :smug
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 03:31:35 PM: Paul Krugman can eat my taint.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 04:30:56 PM: and then chuckle as his taxes pay for your emergency room visit!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Oblivion on June 24, 2009, 04:55:57 PM: Quote from: Willco on June 24, 2009, 03:31:35 PM
Paul Krugman can eat my taint.

What's wrong with Krugman?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 24, 2009, 04:59:34 PM: He's like a real-life Mandark, but snarky. That sense of self-righteous indignation only works if you have some humility and can be self-deprecating from time to time.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 24, 2009, 05:05:44 PM: Waaah...he's right but makes me feel uncomfortable about being wrong :'( :'(

Come the fuck on
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 24, 2009, 05:55:44 PM: Mandark isn't snarky?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 24, 2009, 06:36:18 PM: Edit: Comment was unnecessary
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 10:43:16 AM: Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 12:21:04 AM
HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

We gettin ready for some hawt angry repub-democan't secks. :hump

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:tauntaun
[close]
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Ganhyun on June 26, 2009, 10:45:13 AM: Quote from: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 10:43:16 AM
Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 12:21:04 AM
HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

We gettin ready for some hawt angry repub-democan't secks. :hump

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:tauntaun
[close]

Oh? :-*
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 10:52:20 AM: Oh yeah, the tauntaun is always down for gettin down. :-*
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Ganhyun on June 26, 2009, 10:55:45 AM: Quote from: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 10:52:20 AM
Oh yeah, the tauntaun is always down for gettin down. :-*

mmmmmm :-*
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 11:20:06 AM: Wanna see my cum face? (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/SlinkyT82/muckhole.gif)

spoiler (click to show/hide)
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/SlinkyT82/blackgirlmyspacead.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Ganhyun on June 26, 2009, 11:27:40 AM: :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 12:48:38 PM: Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 12:21:04 AM
HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?
Combo Breaker!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 04:11:52 PM: Well, I guess the serious question (As I've avoided OT stuff and you'll no doubt be repeating yourself) is that with a public option (which for some reason I assume you're against), what's the downside to offering it?

If it's shit, then it'll flounder and go away. Only if it's good will it cause the other companies to step up their game.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 26, 2009, 04:12:35 PM: DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER - MASS HYSTERIA!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 04:25:04 PM: Double pay?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: brawndolicious on June 26, 2009, 04:25:50 PM: You see Willco? Double pay.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Mandark on June 26, 2009, 04:41:29 PM: Quote from: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 04:25:04 PM
Double pay?

It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8)!

OR

It's when you spend twice as much per capita as other developed countries on health care.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1439/877738792_0266349491_o.jpg)

Look at that market efficiency go!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Tauntaun on June 26, 2009, 04:43:00 PM: Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 12:48:38 PM
Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 12:21:04 AM
HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?
Combo Breaker!

Yeah, I didn't even have to say anything. My aura of awesome is that strong.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c252/Jaydubyadub/Gendoav.jpg)
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Rman on June 26, 2009, 04:43:24 PM: I would definitely prefer a better system than we have now. One that actually institutes cost controls. Atul Gawande's recent article in the New Yorker--Drinky made a thread about it--showed how inefficient the system can be. Other measures, like moving to electronic records, would save millions of dollars as well.

I think the Obama team is on the right track on going after rising costs and finding ways to slash them. My only concern with a broad national health care system would be rationing of services due to basic supply and demand.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 04:50:37 PM: Quote from: JayDubya on June 26, 2009, 04:42:19 PM
Quote from: M3wThr33 on June 26, 2009, 04:25:04 PM
Double pay?

Can I opt out of using this new service provider or do I have to pay for it regardless?

If I have to pay for it regardless, then contracting another service provider means I have to pay both of them.

Double pay.

Well I thought with public option it would be just that, an option for a publicly owned health care provider.

Although that happens with private school already and other things. (Went to private school until high school)
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: brawndolicious on June 26, 2009, 05:05:00 PM: The double pay argument would not really apply if the government run healthcare turned out to be more efficient the privatized option. As in the same quality of healthcare but cheaper.

You do have to consider that the government insurance provider would not need to generate any profit, but it would still have a large influence on the prices of hospital visits and pharmaceuticals.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 26, 2009, 05:17:00 PM: You pay for medicare anyway - even if you don't use it. The lack of insurance for individuals who will end up using medicare will result in skyrocketing costs that you will have to pay in the long run.

So the question is, do you wait until its broken or NOT?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 26, 2009, 05:19:41 PM: I love how the best legitimate argument is that a public option would be so efficient it'd price private providers out of the system :spin What a crazy world.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM: but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 26, 2009, 05:24:44 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Then you should tell which ever Congressman said that to dump his own, government-run insurance.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Dickie Dee on June 26, 2009, 05:30:37 PM: I don't want no bureaucRAT gettin' between me and my doctor.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:35:06 PM: Quote from: Willco on June 26, 2009, 05:24:44 PM
Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Then you should tell which ever Congressman said that to dump his own, government-run insurance.

So you're saying you don't remember Katrina then. Nazi
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 26, 2009, 05:42:35 PM: Quote from: Mamacint on June 26, 2009, 05:30:37 PM
I don't want no bureaucRAT gettin' between me and my doctor.

Yes, do it the American way - where an insurance company stands between you and your doctor!
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Brehvolution on June 26, 2009, 05:51:29 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Ganhyun on June 29, 2009, 12:34:07 PM: Quote from: Zero Hero on June 26, 2009, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?

Since when did Katrina hit Las Vegas?
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Brehvolution on June 29, 2009, 12:49:01 PM: Quote from: Ganhyun on June 29, 2009, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Zero Hero on June 26, 2009, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?

Since when did Katrina hit Las Vegas?
I never heard of Vegas being called Sin City, only New Orleans. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on June 29, 2009, 12:56:21 PM: Why can't someone else buy me lunch? Part Two.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 29, 2009, 12:58:32 PM: Why do I pay for someone else's education? Why do I pay for someone else's transportation? Why do I pay for basic services?

Dumbest argument ever, FoC.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on June 29, 2009, 01:03:03 PM: Quote
Why do I pay for someone else's education? Why do I pay for someone else's transportation? Why do I pay for basic services?

See, now you're getting it.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 29, 2009, 01:06:51 PM: The answer to all these questions is to create a healthy, educated country that contributes to society - helping make us prosperous and safe.

To say that basic services - education, health care, etc. - are not anyone's responsibility is incredibly short sighted and self centered. But we already know where you stand on that platform.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Brehvolution on June 29, 2009, 01:44:01 PM: Quote from: Green Man on June 29, 2009, 12:52:13 PM
Quote from: Zero Hero on June 29, 2009, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Ganhyun on June 29, 2009, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Zero Hero on June 26, 2009, 05:51:29 PM
Quote from: Phoenix Dark on June 26, 2009, 05:21:04 PM
but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?

Since when did Katrina hit Las Vegas?
I never heard of Vegas being called Sin City, only New Orleans. *shrugs*

Can I live under your rock when you're done with it?
If it's OK with your parents, sure.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: demi on June 29, 2009, 02:12:07 PM: wow, you didnt know sin city meant vegas? i have never heard of it as new orleans.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: demi on June 29, 2009, 02:12:48 PM: http://www.digitalcity.com/2008/09/06/sin-cities-new-orleans-vs-las-vegas/
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Brehvolution on June 29, 2009, 02:23:59 PM: I may have been confused, but my point still stands. The bush administration's reaction to katrina was terrible because they didn't care if New Orleans was destroyed.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: M3wThr33 on June 29, 2009, 02:25:02 PM: Vegas is the city that never sleeps (Due to the always running lights, lack of clocks and jet-lagged tourists from all over) and Sin City, due to all the fucking.

Any other answer for those two nicknames is wrong.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on June 29, 2009, 02:27:55 PM: Not to mention that there is no last call in Vegas. You can drink and party all night and all day. It truly is my favorite place on Earth.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Kara on June 29, 2009, 07:34:13 PM: Vegas sucks now that it is run by multinationals looking to wring every last dime out of everyone in town. Way better when the mob called the shots.
Title: Re: Why can't I have health care? Part Two.
Post by: Akala on June 29, 2009, 08:18:58 PM: Quote from: Willco on June 29, 2009, 02:27:55 PM
Not to mention that there is no last call in Vegas. You can drink and party all night and all day. It truly is my favorite place on Earth.

:bow Vegas

Quote from: Karakand on June 29, 2009, 07:34:13 PM
Vegas sucks now that it is run by multinationals looking to wring every last dime out of everyone in town. Way better when the mob called the shots.

Still awesome. Since the recession hit, they are back to being (more) generous. They give out loads of free shit lately, and you don't even have to play much. A few years ago, when they were targeting CA yuppies/trust fundies/people with more money than sense, it was too expensive...but that was all totally changed the last time I went there.

Rooms are cheap, many clubs have free cover (and they pass out drink coupons!), and restaurants have great specials. I saw an offer the other day where PH has $50 rooms with a free bottle of liquor a night. Sure, it's probably old crow, but come on.

If you aren't totally poor, Vegas hasn't been this good in years.