Why can't I have health care? Part Two.

[The Fake Shemp]

Why do Republicans care if insurance companies can't compete with public options?

[Bocsius]

Because republicans receive support from insurance companies. Who's going to contribute more to your campaign fund? Medicare or Blue Cross?

[Mr. Gundam]

Get a job, hippie.

But seriously, politicians are in bed with the insurance companies.

[archie4208]

if the government takes over healthcare you won't have any CHOICES or FREEDOM.  granted you could go bankrupt if, god forbid, you are in a car wreck but think about the FREEDOM

[The Fake Shemp]

Who gives a shit about choices?  I just want to be insured!

[Bocsius]

If everybody has something, what's there to have?

[Phoenix Dark]

You'd think they'd love the idea. Let the market prevail through competition!

[The Fake Shemp]

You'd think they'd love the idea. Let the market prevail through competition!

DO WE REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT RUNNING OUR HEALTH INSURANCE, LIKE THEY DO FOR ALL SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN!?  THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT!

[Kestastrophe]

DO WE REALLY WANT BIG GOVERNMENT RUNNING OUR HEALTH INSURANCE, LIKE THEY DO FOR ALL SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN!?  THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT!

JUST LOOK AT USPS

*rewind 6 years*

THE WAR IN IRAQ IS GOING FINE, GOVERNMENT SUCKS AT EVERYTHING BUT MAKING WAR

*rewind 1 year*

THE SURGE IS WORKING

etc,.

[muckhole]

One of my American customers had car trouble recently, and as I drove him to the shop to pick up his truck, he brought up the subject of his astronomical health insurance fees, complaining about how he's damned if he pays, and damned if he doesn't.

I cautiously asked him for his thoughts on a universal health care plan not unlike what we have in Canada (admitting that it's far from perfect) and he began to backpedal furiously, saying that a socialist plan may work fine here, but it would never work in the U.S., because doctors need to be able to make money and he' rather pay through the nose for himself and his family as opposed to folks who didn't "earn" it.

Why he, a body shop repair owner, felt he needed to defend doctor's bottom lines was beyond me, and I didn't press the matter, only mentioning casually that any doctors I know most definitely aren't hurting for cash. I guess the idea of paying for people who won't contribute as much overall is a pretty big sticking point for lots of people.

[The Fake Shemp]

The only real "argument" I've heard from people against health care is that they "don't want to pay for someone else's heath care".  That's pretty ridiculous - why pay for someone else's child's education?  Or police?  Emergency services?


Not to mention, we'll be paying for everyone else's astronomical health care costs once they get older; an entire generation without preventative health care bleeding Medicare dry with ailments that could've been treated if we had a public option.

[muckhole]

Yeah, it was an odd moment. He really got worked up on that point, which is why I just let the matter drop. That's going to be a pretty tough perception to change for some, from the looks of it.

[Kestastrophe]

The only real "argument" I've heard from people against health care is that they "don't want to pay for someone else's heath care".  That's pretty ridiculous - why pay for someone else's child's education?  Or police?  Emergency services?

Not only that, but I would argue that most insured people are subsidizing other's care already. I would argue that frequently ill persons are the first to buy insurance, which presents adverse selection in the insured pool.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yup exactly: we already pay for other people's care whether it's emergency visits or public schools.

This is like green eggs and ham. Once people realize "hey, this isn't bad afterall and my doctor friends aren't in soup lines afterall!" things will be fine. And assuming it cuts costs and doesn't bring forth the end of the western world as we know it, how to republicans handle the issue in the future? Are they stuck with it, like SS and medicare?

[The Fake Shemp]

The Republican arguments against health care reform are ridiculous.

BUT PRIVATER INSURERS WON'T BE ABLE TO COMPETE!

So?  They've been screwing over middle America for years!

BUT BIG GOVERNMENT CAN'T RUN ANYTHING, ITS BEST LEFT TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR!

Why did we vote you into office then?  Also, how do you like your government health insurance?

IT COSTS TOO MUCH AND WE WILL HAVE TO RAISE TAXES!

So you'd rather just heap the costs of an entire generation without preventative health care on my generation?

... Seriously, what the fuck.

[The Fake Shemp]

Also, Republicans claim they love small businesses, which get crippled with health care costs that they really can't afford.  Letting their employees take a public option frees up a lot of cash.

[Fragamemnon]

It also removes a HUGE competitive disadvantage for recruiting talent that small businesses have compared to large ones. You can't recruit white collar, highly-educated professionals into a job without good health insurance, which is FAR more easier to obtain for large businesses instead of small ones.

If we had a robust public option in health care, there would be a big shift towards more entrepreneurs and small businesses in the American economy. Which would be very good, as that's the engine for economic innovation and non-shitty jobs in this country.

anyway http://moonshinepatriot.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-press-conference-june-23-2009.html

well fuck if they can't compete with the government who they say can't do anything right then maybe they fucking suck

That's pretty much Obama's argument. Insurance companies' position on health care sits on totally tortured logic.

[The Fake Shemp]

I think, more than anything, I am pretty upset that these so-called Democrats are discounting a public option.

[Dickie Dee]

Haven't alot of 500 CEO's backed or at least backed off opposing a more public health care plan (despite ingrained instincts to oppose it.) Cultural disposition only goes enough past the bottom line, and the same excesses that are making healthcare unfordable for millions is also impacting corporations bottom line.

[Van Cruncheon]

yeah, the democrats are being really two-faced and slimy on the whole health care issue. obama needs to man the fuck up and demand single-payer.

[Dickie Dee]

I'm normally a fan of not letting perfect being an obstacle for good, but if they're gonna cunt out and knee-jerkingly oppose any progress, why not set the goal posts further?

[TakingBackSunday]

I don't really know much about how the system works, but what would happen if health care was made into a state-by-state issue, much like education is for the most part now?  Is that a little too complex a system to uphold, especially with how the nature of our culture is much more national and, to a lesser degree, international?

[Dickie Dee]

I don't really know much about how the system works, but what would happen if health care was made into a state-by-state issue, much like education is for the most part now?  Is that a little too complex a system to uphold, especially with how the nature of our culture is much more national and, to a lesser degree, international?

I'd be happy for this, but I'd wonder again how much incentive there'd be to move to health-generous states at times of need (the benefits of establishing an effective healthcare system probably outweighs any of these problems, but it's a question still worth asking)

[The Fake Shemp]

yeah, the democrats are being really two-faced on slimy on the whole health care issue. obama needs to man the fuck up and demand single-payer.

bu bu bu I don't want to pay for you to go to the E.R. every day with fake, mystery ailments just because you have health care!

[Van Cruncheon]

bububububu i'm gonna go anyway and since i can't pay you'll still get stuck with the bill AHUAHUA

CURSE YOU LUCKY DUCKY

[Akala]

Personally, I kind of think this whole thing is destined to fail, but really hope I'm wrong.

I don't understand why anyone who has dealt with health insurance for any extended period of time would possibly argue the position of the insurance companies unless fox news told them so. The greedy fucks are in need of an overhaul, and/or competition from outside the industry.

I do wonder that if this ever goes through, is there a chance of back-door medical cost reform? Any new government agency will have an incredible amount of clout from the jump and I think an attempt at price fixing/standardization may follow.

[Phoenix Dark]

Good article
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/opinion/22krugman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

[Tauntaun]

Cause

[The Fake Shemp]

Paul Krugman can eat my taint.

[Phoenix Dark]

and then chuckle as his taxes pay for your emergency room visit!

[Oblivion]

Paul Krugman can eat my taint.

What's wrong with Krugman?

[The Fake Shemp]

He's like a real-life Mandark, but snarky.  That sense of self-righteous indignation only works if you have some humility and can be self-deprecating from time to time.

[Dickie Dee]

Waaah...he's right but makes me feel uncomfortable about being wrong  :'(  :'(

Come the fuck on

[Phoenix Dark]

Mandark isn't snarky?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Edit: Comment was unnecessary

[Tauntaun]

HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

We gettin ready for some hawt angry repub-democan't secks. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Ganhyun]

HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

We gettin ready for some hawt angry repub-democan't secks. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

Oh? 

[Tauntaun]

Oh yeah, the tauntaun is always down for gettin down. 

[Ganhyun]

Oh yeah, the tauntaun is always down for gettin down. 

mmmmmm 

[Tauntaun]

Wanna see my cum face? 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Ganhyun]

 

[M3wThr33]

HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

Combo Breaker!

[M3wThr33]

Well, I guess the serious question (As I've avoided OT stuff and you'll no doubt be repeating yourself) is that with a public option (which for some reason I assume you're against), what's the downside to offering it?

If it's shit, then it'll flounder and go away. Only if it's good will it cause the other companies to step up their game.

[The Fake Shemp]

DOGS AND CATS LIVING TOGETHER - MASS HYSTERIA!

[M3wThr33]

Double pay?

[brawndolicious]

You see Willco?  Double pay.

[Mandark]

Double pay?

It's what you oughtn't to do but you do anyway!


OR


It's when you spend twice as much per capita as other developed countries on health care.




Look at that market efficiency go!

[Tauntaun]

HEY GUYZ WUZ GON ON IN TIHS THRED?

Combo Breaker!

Yeah, I didn't even have to say anything.  My aura of awesome is that strong.

[Rman]

I would definitely prefer a better system than we have now.  One that actually institutes cost controls.  Atul Gawande's recent article in the New Yorker--Drinky made a thread about it--showed how inefficient the system can be.  Other measures, like moving to electronic records, would save millions of dollars as well.  

I think the Obama team is on the right track on going after rising costs and finding ways to slash them.  My only concern with a broad national health care system would be rationing of services due to basic supply and demand.  

[M3wThr33]

Double pay?

Can I opt out of using this new service provider or do I have to pay for it regardless?

If I have to pay for it regardless, then contracting another service provider means I have to pay both of them.

Double pay.

Well I thought with public option it would be just that, an option for a publicly owned health care provider.

Although that happens with private school already and other things. (Went to private school until high school)

[brawndolicious]

The double pay argument would not really apply if the government run healthcare turned out to be more efficient the privatized option.  As in the same quality of healthcare but cheaper.

You do have to consider that the government insurance provider would not need to generate any profit, but it would still have a large influence on the prices of hospital visits and pharmaceuticals.

[The Fake Shemp]

You pay for medicare anyway - even if you don't use it.  The lack of insurance for individuals who will end up using medicare will result in skyrocketing costs that you will have to pay in the long run.

So the question is, do you wait until its broken or NOT?

[Dickie Dee]

I love how the best legitimate argument is that a public option would be so efficient it'd price private providers out of the system What a crazy world.

[Phoenix Dark]

but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

[The Fake Shemp]

but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Then you should tell which ever Congressman said that to dump his own, government-run insurance.

[Dickie Dee]

I don't want no bureaucRAT gettin' between me and my doctor.

[Phoenix Dark]

but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Then you should tell which ever Congressman said that to dump his own, government-run insurance.

So you're saying you don't remember Katrina then. Nazi

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't want no bureaucRAT gettin' between me and my doctor.

Yes, do it the American way - where an insurance company stands between you and your doctor!

[Brehvolution]

but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?

[Ganhyun]

but the government can't do anything right! Remember Katrina?

Why would a bible beating administration want to save "Sin City"?

Since when did Katrina hit Las Vegas?