Jordan never had that "child molester" drop-off though, he was all upside.
Michael Jackson. Not everyone is into sports- Thriller was pretty much something you couldn't escape from, though.
Michael Jackson .
Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.
Michael Jackson .
8
Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet. American pop music on the other hand.
I didn't watch basketball when I was a kid, but I did watch Space Jam. :lawd
Michael Jackson is the 3rd most popular music act of all time.
Jordan is #1 in the second most popular sport in the world.
Depends on what your metrics are.
Very surprised by the results ???
I don't even really like Jackson but globally he was clearly a bigger star. Especially since you're going to older than 45, Jackson had a bigger impact for longer in that age range.
(http://www.adventuresinchinatravel.com/images/crazyformichael.JPG)
:hitler
ITT: AiA poses a question so he can argue he's right
Let's see, for the under 45 crowd I'll take the Internet as a barometer(http://i.imgur.com/NuRaPqw.gif)
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=Michael+Jackson&word2=Michael+Jordan+
No further comment
And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.
Let me preface this all by saying that I don't particularly care for Jackson, and generally prefer Jordan's 'work' in his "field".
Michael Jackson had an immense impact. Without even dabbling into music, what he did for dance was crazy. Every RnB performer since him has been doing imitations of his shit on stage. Usher, Chris Brown, Aaliyah, beyonce, Omarion, etc all have some of MJ's DNA as performers. You guys might not know this, but MJ's video and dance game was a global game changer too. After Thriller there was a total shift in the way dance and song numbers go in Bollywood. They went from slow sad affairs to dance and singing heavy affairs, and a lot of the industrys most popular actors cribbed his moves, like Amitabh.
Thriller represents a paradigm shift in music video making to me as well, they became less performance based and more cinematic from that point. If you're talking about marketing and demographic shifts, Thriller also changed things; first album with a worldwide debut for example.
And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.Quote"I remember taking a red-eye to New York and going to MTV [with] a rough cut of 'Billie Jean' and MTV declining the video," Weisner recalls. He walked from there to Epic headquarters. "I sat down with [CBS Records head] Walter Yetnikoff," he says. "We then went to [CBS head] Bill Paley, and he and Walter [told MTV], 'This video is on by the end of the day or [CBS Records] isn't doing business with MTV anymore.' The record company played hardball and that was the day that changed history. That was the video that broke the color barrier."
Only way you can pick Jordan is if you think sports > music. I don't go to that church.
Only way you can pick Jordan is if you think sports > music. I don't go to that church.
I don't see Jordan selling out international tours, breh.
And are we really going to gloss over the golf and baseball? :holeup
And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.
Uhh .. I guess Motown never existed?
MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)QuoteThe former president of CBS Records, Walter Yetnikoff, remembered with scorn that MTV would not play "Billie Jean" or "Beat It" because it billed itself as a rock station.
Looking back on that era, a 1991 Los Angeles Times article quoted MTV founder and then-CEO Robert Pittman as saying the channel's format didn't lend itself to other musical styles, including R&B and country. And Pittman accused his critics of attempting to impose their musical pluralism on the channel's die-hard rock fans.
But Yetnikoff said he threatened to pull videos of his other artists unless MTV played Jackson's videos.
Apart from that he was the first black artist or receive that sort of industry backing and packaging as a young star. Armstrong, motown, jazz etc were before, but Jackson was the first to get big boy treatment :yeshrug
Sammy Davis Jr. and Nat King Cole may have made a tv ripple before, but Michael Jackson was the wave.
It's like pointing out that there was tapping in Jazz in the 50's. Sure, but Van Halen made it matter. :yeshrug
And neither of you want to address how Jackson had an impact on dance or music videos :ufup that shit changed the game.
Such skills quickly translated into money and power in the world, of the late twentieth century. But Jordan was not just an athlete, he was an African-American athlete who earned $30 million a year for playing with the Bulls and twice that amount from his endorsements and personal businesses. Within his own lifetime, African-American athletes had been victimized and exploited—not made multimillionaires. They were also often condemned for choosing merely to dunk basketballs or catch footballs, rather than acting as role models for future doctors, lawyers, or business leaders. That Jordan became a hero for the many races in American society was thus somewhat surprising. That he could transform this role into becoming the most successful advertising figure in the world was historic. His success in good part can be traced back to his family and North Carolina background.
However you church it up, all Jordan did was play exceptionally well... At one of three sports he tried :smug
THE ARRIVALS
Rose: When Michael Jackson arrived [to the set], he was very secretive. His bus pulls in and then it's tented between the bus and the building. The whole walkway is hidden. No one ever could see him. The police chief was just like, "I can't believe you didn't tell me it was Michael Jackson. This is crazy. We've got to get more police here. This could be a riot." I was like, "OK, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."
Michael was on the set probably about a couple of hours, and then Michael Jordan pulled in. And he just pulled in driving his BMW. He just drove up to the set and parked, got out. The police chief just looked at me like, "Are you f---ing kidding me?" [laughs] I said, "Well, it's actually Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson together." And he's like, "Oh my god." So they beefed up security. I think there was more security buzzing about Michael Jordan than they were about Michael Jackson
More like American pop is more of a global phenomenon than American basketball. Seems you're just trying to defend your religion of the ball.
Don't strawman. I didn't say it wasn't, I said it was lesser to American pop.
More like American pop is more of a global phenomenon than American basketball. Seems you're just trying to defend your religion of the ball.
Basketball is America's most successful sporting product (and it will be the one that endures the most) breh, and MJ is the reason for that. It's just facts.
Let me preface this all by saying that I don't particularly care for Jackson, and generally prefer Jordan's 'work' in his "field".
Michael Jackson had an immense impact. Without even dabbling into music, what he did for dance was crazy. Every RnB performer since him has been doing imitations of his shit on stage. Usher, Chris Brown, Aaliyah, beyonce, Omarion, etc all have some of MJ's DNA as performers. You guys might not know this, but MJ's video and dance game was a global game changer too. After Thriller there was a total shift in the way dance and song numbers go in Bollywood. They went from slow sad affairs to dance and singing heavy affairs, and a lot of the industrys most popular actors cribbed his moves, like Amitabh.
Thriller represents a paradigm shift in music video making to me as well, they became less performance based and more cinematic from that point. If you're talking about marketing and demographic shifts, Thriller also changed things; first album with a worldwide debut for example.
And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.Quote"I remember taking a red-eye to New York and going to MTV [with] a rough cut of 'Billie Jean' and MTV declining the video," Weisner recalls. He walked from there to Epic headquarters. "I sat down with [CBS Records head] Walter Yetnikoff," he says. "We then went to [CBS head] Bill Paley, and he and Walter [told MTV], 'This video is on by the end of the day or [CBS Records] isn't doing business with MTV anymore.' The record company played hardball and that was the day that changed history. That was the video that broke the color barrier."
Motown?
Chuck Berry?
James Brown?
(http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/05/Michael-Jordan-GIF.gif)
Some white people loved motown, 'tis true. But fact of the matter is that black songs rarely charted at the top and rarely intersected into the mainstream (i.e. what whites pay attention) and not just the black bubble. There were very few racial crossover songs and lp's before Thriller. Facts only, and I have the data to back it up.
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
Michael Jackson .
Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.
Yet Jordan's shoes sell in every continent on the planet.
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
There is more talent top to bottom now than in the 90's. Just sayin :yeshrug
Let's see, for the under 45 crowd I'll take the Internet as a barometerhttp://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=michael%20jordan%2C%20michael%20jackson&cmpt=q&tz=
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=Michael+Jackson&word2=Michael+Jordan+
No further comment
Michael Jackson .
Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.
Yet Jordan's shoes sell in every continent on the planet.
You can cop Thriller if you manage to get a cell connection in antarctica, but I'm guessing there isn't a foot locker in the region. Mike also sold out arenas in every market of the world for like fifteen years (sorry for the #actually)
It's a tough comparison. Professionally, they both had great early and mid careers before hitting stretches of mediocrity. Personality wise, everything I've heard about Jordan makes him out to be a dickhead, and what more needs to be said about Jackson?
Personally, I'd choose Jackson since Off The Wall still gets spins. Besides, he may or may not have touched kids, but at least he never cursed the world with team Jordans :yuck
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
There is more talent top to bottom now than in the 90's. Just sayin :yeshrug
I'd disagree with that heavily. :yeshrug
2007 Mavericks: Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Erick Dampier, Devin Harris, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, DeSagana Diop, Greg Buckner, Devean George.
2015 Warriors: Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes, David Lee, Andre Iguodala, Andrew Bogut, Marreese Speights, Shaun Livingston.
Are you kidding me???
Jordan's are ugly as fuck.
:larry
Basketball will at least challenge soccer for popularity within the next 50 years globally.
I think that's a long shot. And it would be pretty hard for it to happen, at least in any sort of meaningful sense unless
- FIFA doesn't develop the sport properly in the asian, african and north american conferences and continues to suck UEFA's dick. and I think they will, given recent overtures with the Goal Project.
- FIBA becomes a non-joke and other leagues in the world show signs of being at least decently consistent places for players to develop skills before they try their hand in the NBA. But as of right now... lol. Even with the right amount of investment and infrastructure building and skill development it's hard for a league to git gud.
Dunno, NFL coming to London, breh :teehee
UK has a growing NFL market.
What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA
Need Tupac added to the poll.
How exactly is being the billionaire owner of an NBA franchise (First black person to do so) mediocre in your book?
MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)
How exactly is being the billionaire owner of an NBA franchise (First black person to do so) mediocre in your book?
I was really just addressing his career as a player, but defend his career as an owner if you want (http://i.imgur.com/HcRGOtV.png)
What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA
Less players on a team. Arena's are already built. And I see the absurd salaries soccer players make (Doesn't Messi make like 2 million a match?)
So I really don't know babe.
MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)
Pre-1984, Mtv was a glorified college rock radio station. Cable television was a luxury item for the rich and some of the middle class. Of those scant few subscribers, some cable companies didn't even carry Mtv (That's why early Mtv would spam their network with "I want my Mtv" ads). It wasn't even that influential on the music industry yet. The explosion in pop music in 1984 (and government deregulation) changed all that.
So, it doesn't even make sense for Mtv to cater to an audience that didn't have access to their network or even scoffed at the idea of paying for television.
What do you think about my basketball expense post, AIA
Less players on a team. Arena's are already built. And I see the absurd salaries soccer players make (Doesn't Messi make like 2 million a match?)
So I really don't know babe.
I'm not talking about pro ball. I'm talking about kids. In soccer nations, those kids don't even need a goal to get good, or even play. They can just kick the ball around. Doesn't matter where: grass field, concrete street, whatever. Basketball, its only use is bouncing it on concrete/wood, and you need more than person to have fun with it. Poor nations, you'll have a field, the kids can play soccer on it. Basketball, they'll need two hoops, and tall ones in order to be good for an actual game. Soccer will always win because it requires far less to start a game.
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.
'Mediocre' is a relative term I guess. Those last couple seasons were by no means terrible, just him getting older and not being able to be as insanely athletic as he used to be. He didn't go out Kobe style.
I disagree about the last point. If your job as an owner is to turn a profit without concern to winning, sure, James Dolan is great at his job, and Jordan still sucks. Jordan isn't making those billions as an owner anyway though, he's making it from endorsements that net him thousands of dollars per second.
Another thought; no group of people will hate Jackson as passionately as 90s Knicks fans hate Jordan. I guess that actually kinda might push the needle in Jordans favor from a 'cultural impact' in a weird way.
I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.And even if you did you probably wouldn't recognize it or simply agree with it, because that's just the kind of creatures we are.The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.
Uh oh King of Pop taking back his throne
2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked upDidn't even vote. :win
Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
:obama
2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up:umad :yeshrug
Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan
2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up:umad :yeshrug
Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan
2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up
Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan
2 of the 5 of you nerds fucked up
Trent Dole, Rufus, Fifstar, Yeti, king of the internet, StealthFan
What does this even mean? Two of the five out of six people listed fucked up? What?
I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.
1994
I'd disagree with that heavily. :yeshrugyeah that isn't true
I'd disagree with that heavily. :yeshrugyeah that isn't true
The growth the sport's seen in the past 20-25 years is a direct result of the NBA's penetration (:teehee) into the global market. That growth (along with the rise of 24/7 media coverage) has caused a massive shift in the scope of investment. And that's top down. Eligible draftees jump earlier and earlier to the NBA because a contract right now is a smarter career choice than amateur (:teehee) development that may or may not pay off. High-major programs feature revolving door line-ups because the Association voraciously consumes young talent. 8th-12th graders are herded into shoe and agent camps like cattle. All of this happens at a way higher register than what it looked like pre-(or even during) Jordan. Accessing, investing in, and filtering talent has never been more centralized or voluminous, and we have the financial growth of the NBA (of which Jordan is most responsible, if we have to pin it down to one player) to thank for that.
Tbt I'd vote for Jackson, for no other reason than American pop >>>>>>> American sport in terms of permeation. Oddly, both arguments hinge on the same thing, that sport is the only product that American industry doesn't have a global cultural hegemony on.
I voted for Jackson but damn, I could go either way really.The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
You could say the same thing about Jackson, too. 1984 was a crazy year for American music. MJ exploded in January, Madonna released Like a Virgin, Prince released Purple Rain and Bruce Springsteen releasing Born in the USA. All within like an 8 month period.
It's a shame that I'll never experience a year like that in terms of good pop music being released.
1994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1994
Good point. I still like 1984 better but 1994 wasn't half bad.
What's not true?that the talent in the NBA 20 years ago >> the talent in the NBA today. it's WAY deeper right now and that's with 3 additional franchises
I wonder if we'll have basketball academies in 40 years. probably not. the USA loves watching amateur (:teehee) sports :hitlerbreh, the American public buys the Student-Athlete IntegrityTM narrative hook line and fucking sinker. I think it's so bizarre how American sports fans have this infatuation with the corporate virginity model of the sports-education complex despite the fact they skew conservative. Meanwhile in Socialist dystopia Europe, entertainment talent is farmed in a system that looks like it's straight out of Ayn Rand's wet dream.
Uh oh King of Pop taking back his throne
But he ain't got this duuuuuuuudddeeeee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxBBN3ZnYeU
basketball is overly star oriented to a stupid level, but
I would blame the perceived prevalence/dominance of iso play on how players are raised/trained , not NBA corporate or fan culture.
Back then, you would have to have built your craft in college basketball. These days, a lot of ball players jump in without forming pro skills. The talent pool has suffered as a result, and the league's lack of talent has spread many teams thin. Back in the 90's, not all teams were championship material, but they still brought it and it was much better balanced.I mean, what are pro skills? Here are the rosters of Vancouver (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/VAN/1996.html#roster::none)and Philadelphia (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1996.html#roster::none)in the 1996 season. Here's Boston (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1997.html#roster::none)in 1997. The draft has always been a crap-shoot, that hasn't changed. The most poorly managed teams invariably achieve the worst records year in and year out (sometimes intentionally), then turnover happens which may or may not affect the franchises 'culture,' that hasn't changed either. Teams don't take young talent in an effort to find a new Jordan, they take them because they're way cheaper than signing free agents for ever more expensive veteran minimums (thank you based collective bargaining agreement). I totally agree though, the Stern administration is at least as responsible as Jordan is for the landscape of basketball today. I'd say you really can't understand one without the other.
I would argue that Jordan ruined basketball because now the NBA - Stern in particular, when he was in charge - is obsessed with creating a new Jordan and deifying basketball stars rather than teams.
on something that should be illegal I totally agree though, the Stern administration is at least as responsible as Jordan is for the landscape of basketball today. I'd say you really can't understand one without the other.
is Elvis that big outside of the u.s.? I'd have to think that mj's popularity easily eclipses his.
is Elvis that big outside of the u.s.? I'd have to think that mj's popularity easily eclipses his.