Poll

Bigger cultural Icon?

Michael Jackson
Michael Jordan

Author Topic: Which of these two was the bigger cultural Icon for people born after 1970?  (Read 11443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
The King of Pop versus the Goat....



vs



YMMV

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
MJ.
serge

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
Michael Jackson. Not everyone is into sports- Thriller was pretty much something you couldn't escape from, though.
yar

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
Jordan never had that "child molester" drop-off though, he was all upside.
©@©™

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Jordan never had that "child molester" drop-off though, he was all upside.

Indeed. He did have a messy divorce though. But that's par for the course now-a-days.

Michael Jackson. Not everyone is into sports- Thriller was pretty much something you couldn't escape from, though.

I hate that non-sports argument. There isn't anyone on Earth who doesn't know who Jordan was.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:44:02 PM by Am_I_Anonymous »
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Michael Jackson .

Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.

Yet Jordan's shoes sell in every continent on the planet.
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Michael Jackson .
8
Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet. American pop music on the other hand.

Again look at the age I'm looking at....over 45 ish...sure Michael Jackson. Under 45 and I'd be willing to bet more people know who Jordan was than MJ globally.

YMMV

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
I didn't watch basketball when I was a kid, but I did watch Space Jam. :lawd
©@©™

king of the internet

  • 🚽
  • Senior Member
Depends on the decade they grew up in. Jackson's biggest hits were in the 80's. Jordan's best run and his huge break out as a celebrity was in the 90's.

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
I didn't watch basketball when I was a kid, but I did watch Space Jam. :lawd

http://www2.warnerbros.com/spacejam/

:rejoice
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Michael Jackson is the 3rd most popular music act of all time.

Jordan is #1 in the second most popular sport in the world.

Depends on what your metrics are.

Edit: Unfair as MJ has been deceased for a while.

My metrics are if you went to say....Africa/India/China/Russia and showed a 10-40 year old a picture of michael jackson and a picture of michael jordan...who would he point at first?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 01:08:59 PM by Am_I_Anonymous »
YMMV

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
©ZH

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
MJ six titles....MJ six votes



Speak up, he can't hear you Esch :-)

YMMV

ToxicAdam

  • captain of my capsized ship
  • Senior Member
It was Jordan.  He was such a game-changing athlete in terms of marketing and branding that no one has really even come close to him. But his existence completely changed the fortunes of everyone that came after him.

MJ was already considered washed-up by the time 1991's Dangerous dropped. In fact, I would say that Madonna had more of a cultural impact than Jackson did. Pushing the boundaries out on female sexuality, social acceptance of gay males, fashion and trend making. So while Michael Jackson's music was clearly better, his cultural impact was overshadowed by her.

This is all from a North American perspective though. Maybe your opinion is vastly different if you live in Germany or Japan at the time.


Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Jordan. Insane impact on marketing/branding, saved the NBA, single highhandedly made basketball a major global sport, and still has major influence to this day from fashion to sports. He's the second most recognizable athlete of all time behind Ali.

Space Jam>Thriller.
010

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
Very surprised by the results  ???
I don't even really like Jackson but globally he was clearly a bigger star. Especially since you're going to older than 45, Jackson had a bigger impact for longer in that age range.

Oh younger than 45. My answer still stands. There's still kids today sayin Jackson is their inspiration, Russel Wilson even said he was the celebrity alive or dead he'd most like to meet on media day yesterday...

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Very surprised by the results  ???
I don't even really like Jackson but globally he was clearly a bigger star. Especially since you're going to older than 45, Jackson had a bigger impact for longer in that age range.

Younger than 45 bub and it isn't even close. Jordan owns Jackson post 1990.
YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
See edit.


CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
ITT: AiA poses a question so he can argue he's right

Joe Molotov

  • I'm much more humble than you would understand.
  • Administrator
©@©™

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
SpaceJam is canon.
©ZH

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
ITT: AiA poses a question so he can argue he's right

Nah, just exposing people who hate sports.

:hitler
YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
Let's see, for the under 45 crowd I'll take the Internet as a barometer

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=Michael+Jackson&word2=Michael+Jordan+

No further comment

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
I love Jackson, I grew up with his music. But to seriously think that a 20 year old in Greece could pick his picture out over Jordan's is silly.
YMMV

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
©ZH

ToxicAdam

  • captain of my capsized ship
  • Senior Member

And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.


Uhh .. I guess Motown never existed?


Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Let me preface this all by saying that I don't particularly care for Jackson, and generally prefer Jordan's 'work' in his "field".

Michael Jackson had an immense impact. Without even dabbling into music, what he did for dance was crazy. Every RnB performer since him has been doing imitations of his shit on stage. Usher, Chris Brown, Aaliyah, beyonce, Omarion, etc all have some of MJ's DNA as performers. You guys might not know this, but MJ's video and dance game was a global game changer too. After Thriller there was a total shift in the way dance and song numbers go in Bollywood. They went from slow sad affairs to dance and singing heavy affairs, and a lot of the industrys most popular actors cribbed his moves, like Amitabh.


Thriller represents a paradigm shift in music video making to me as well, they became less performance based and more cinematic from that point. If you're talking about marketing and demographic shifts, Thriller also changed things; first album with a worldwide debut for example.


And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.

Quote
"I remember taking a red-eye to New York and going to MTV [with] a rough cut of 'Billie Jean' and MTV declining the video," Weisner recalls. He walked from there to Epic headquarters. "I sat down with [CBS Records head] Walter Yetnikoff," he says. "We then went to [CBS head] Bill Paley, and he and Walter [told MTV], 'This video is on by the end of the day or [CBS Records] isn't doing business with MTV anymore.' The record company played hardball and that was the day that changed history. That was the video that broke the color barrier."

Motown?

Chuck Berry?

James Brown?

YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
Only way you can pick Jordan is if you think sports > music. I don't go to that church.

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Only way you can pick Jordan is if you think sports > music. I don't go to that church.

Oh really? How much money do you think was generated by Jordan's clothing? His shoes?



I'm gonna bet you know somebody who own's Jordan Brand shoes/etc


YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
I don't see Jordan selling out international tours, breh.


And are we really going to gloss over the golf and baseball?  :holeup

ToxicAdam

  • captain of my capsized ship
  • Senior Member
Only way you can pick Jordan is if you think sports > music. I don't go to that church.

It's not even about that. If you just look at their effect on their respective entertainment industries, it's not close. But, if you have no appreciation or knowledge of sports it would be hard for you to do.


For Micheal Jackson to even compare, he would have to had the cultural influence of the Beatles, the musical influence of Chuck Berry and the legacy of Elvis Presley. He has none of those.





Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
I don't see Jordan selling out international tours, breh.


And are we really going to gloss over the golf and baseball?  :holeup

Are you telling me Jordan would have a problem assembling 50,000 people in China? Oh wait.....
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member

And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.


Uhh .. I guess Motown never existed?

MTV was largely segregated before Jackson. It was a rock station. They had to pretty much force the network to play his shit, and in turn opened the door for RnB and Rap nationally (and in turn globally with time)

Quote
The former president of CBS Records, Walter Yetnikoff, remembered with scorn that MTV would not play "Billie Jean" or "Beat It" because it billed itself as a rock station.
Looking back on that era, a 1991 Los Angeles Times article quoted MTV founder and then-CEO Robert Pittman as saying the channel's format didn't lend itself to other musical styles, including R&B and country. And Pittman accused his critics of attempting to impose their musical pluralism on the channel's die-hard rock fans.
But Yetnikoff said he threatened to pull videos of his other artists unless MTV played Jackson's videos.



Apart from that he was the first black artist or receive that sort of industry backing and packaging as a young star. Armstrong, motown, jazz etc were before, but Jackson was the first to get big boy treatment :yeshrug

Eh, so Sammy Davis Jr. didn't exist?

YMMV

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Jackson built on the interracial successes of past black artists and broke through the glass color ceiling, Esch is right about that. MTV didn't even play "black music" until he came around.
010

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Sammy Davis Jr. and Nat King Cole may have made a tv ripple before, but Michael Jackson was the wave.

It's like pointing out that there was tapping in Jazz in the 50's. Sure, but Van Halen made it matter.  :yeshrug

And neither of you want to address how Jackson had an impact on dance  or music videos :ufup that shit changed the game.

And likely you don't want to address how Michael Jordan single handily saved a multi-billion dollar industry either. Or how he has influenced multiple generations of children.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/l/lafeber-global.html

Quote
  Such skills quickly translated into money and power in the world, of the late twentieth century. But Jordan was not just an athlete, he was an African-American athlete who earned $30 million a year for playing with the Bulls and twice that amount from his endorsements and personal businesses. Within his own lifetime, African-American athletes had been victimized and exploited—not made multimillionaires. They were also often condemned for choosing merely to dunk basketballs or catch footballs, rather than acting as role models for future doctors, lawyers, or business leaders. That Jordan became a hero for the many races in American society was thus somewhat surprising. That he could transform this role into becoming the most successful advertising figure in the world was historic. His success in good part can be traced back to his family and North Carolina background.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 02:10:03 PM by Am_I_Anonymous »
YMMV

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
we gonna talk about Jackson's impact on the movement to emasculate the black man?
:hitler
010

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
However you church it up, all Jordan did was play exceptionally well... At one of three sports he tried :smug

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
However you church it up, all Jordan did was play exceptionally well... At one of three sports he tried :smug

So your entire argument is "I don't like sports so xxxx wins?" awesome.
YMMV

Himu

  • Senior Member
Jordan DID make it okay for men to go bald. :obama
IYKYK

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
More like American pop is more of a global phenomenon than American basketball. Seems you're just trying to defend your religion of the ball.


Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/19549/an-oral-history-mj-meets-mj-for-jam-video

Quote
THE ARRIVALS
Rose: When Michael Jackson arrived [to the set], he was very secretive. His bus pulls in and then it's tented between the bus and the building. The whole walkway is hidden. No one ever could see him. The police chief was just like, "I can't believe you didn't tell me it was Michael Jackson. This is crazy. We've got to get more police here. This could be a riot." I was like, "OK, I'm sorry, I'm sorry."

Michael was on the set probably about a couple of hours, and then Michael Jordan pulled in. And he just pulled in driving his BMW. He just drove up to the set and parked, got out. The police chief just looked at me like, "Are you f---ing kidding me?" [laughs] I said, "Well, it's actually Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson together." And he's like, "Oh my god." So they beefed up security. I think there was more security buzzing about Michael Jordan than they were about Michael Jackson

:hitler
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
More like American pop is more of a global phenomenon than American basketball. Seems you're just trying to defend your religion of the ball.

LOL at you saying basketball isn't a global phenomenon. This pretty much discredits you're entire viewpoint.

Watch the olympics do you breh?
YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
Don't strawman. I didn't say it wasn't, I said it was lesser to American pop.

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Don't strawman. I didn't say it wasn't, I said it was lesser to American pop.

But what you didn't say is why it is a global phenomenon.

American Music was popular around the world well before Michael Jackson came along.

Michael Jordan made basketball a global sport.  "Like Mike, if I could be Like Mike"
YMMV

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
More like American pop is more of a global phenomenon than American basketball. Seems you're just trying to defend your religion of the ball.

Basketball is America's most successful sporting product (and it will be the one that endures the most) breh, and MJ is the reason for that.  It's just facts.

Basketball will at least challenge soccer for popularity within the next 50 years globally. No other american sports product will ever say that.




He did that.

my nicca :tocry
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 02:26:00 PM by Am_I_Anonymous »
YMMV

Himu

  • Senior Member
Let me preface this all by saying that I don't particularly care for Jackson, and generally prefer Jordan's 'work' in his "field".

Michael Jackson had an immense impact. Without even dabbling into music, what he did for dance was crazy. Every RnB performer since him has been doing imitations of his shit on stage. Usher, Chris Brown, Aaliyah, beyonce, Omarion, etc all have some of MJ's DNA as performers. You guys might not know this, but MJ's video and dance game was a global game changer too. After Thriller there was a total shift in the way dance and song numbers go in Bollywood. They went from slow sad affairs to dance and singing heavy affairs, and a lot of the industrys most popular actors cribbed his moves, like Amitabh.


Thriller represents a paradigm shift in music video making to me as well, they became less performance based and more cinematic from that point. If you're talking about marketing and demographic shifts, Thriller also changed things; first album with a worldwide debut for example.


And you're all downplaying the effect Jackson had on the color barrier for black music and videos, globally.

Quote
"I remember taking a red-eye to New York and going to MTV [with] a rough cut of 'Billie Jean' and MTV declining the video," Weisner recalls. He walked from there to Epic headquarters. "I sat down with [CBS Records head] Walter Yetnikoff," he says. "We then went to [CBS head] Bill Paley, and he and Walter [told MTV], 'This video is on by the end of the day or [CBS Records] isn't doing business with MTV anymore.' The record company played hardball and that was the day that changed history. That was the video that broke the color barrier."

Motown?

Chuck Berry?

James Brown?

(Image removed from quote.)

Um.

Before Michael Jackson, there was a clear line in American music. Black music and white music. Most white people did not fuck with black music, and black music certainly never had an international advertisement. What MJ, Whitney, and Sade did for black musicians alone, and made it okay for them to be seen in the mainstream cannot be understated. MJ allowed a paradigm shift to happen. Before MJ, black musicians were NOT pop. They were r/b, disco, funk, soul, jazz. White dudes fought tooth and nail for disco to die, and blackness was a huge part of that. MJ literally opened the floodgates for black music artists to be recognized by the mainstream. Before then, white people occasionally fucked with black music, but black music was mostly in its own segregated place. I bet you without MJ, rap would have never been the global phenomenon it later became.

And this is just talking about America.

Nevermind MJ's impact with dance and music video choreography with Billie Jean and Thriller. Before that, you had that, you had stuff like Pat Benatar Love Is A Battlefield, but it wasn't as huge a deal because MJ's dancing was such a huge step up.

If you look at music videos and pop music before Thriller, there's a distinct line and difference. After Thriller, he influenced not only music videos, but dance PERIOD.
IYKYK

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
No Queen, no.

White people loved motown, sammy davis Jr, etc. C'mon.

But yeah, he had a major impact on music for sure. He just didn't bring it to a new nation like MJ did basketball.

Again I love Michael Jackson. I just think Jordan has a bigger continuing impact then Jackson did. But that's like saying that jupiter is bigger than Saturn...who gives a fuck both are huge.
YMMV

Himu

  • Senior Member
Some white people loved motown, 'tis true. But fact of the matter is that black songs rarely charted at the top and rarely intersected into the mainstream (i.e. what whites pay attention) and not just the black bubble. There were very few racial crossover songs and lp's before Thriller. Facts only, and I have the data to back it up.
IYKYK

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
Some white people loved motown, 'tis true. But fact of the matter is that black songs rarely charted at the top and rarely intersected into the mainstream (i.e. what whites pay attention) and not just the black bubble. There were very few racial crossover songs and lp's before Thriller. Facts only, and I have the data to back it up.

But what I'm saying is it did happen before. Just not on Jackson's level.

Basketball overseas was niche before Jordan...now it is an Olympic sport. That that's also a fact.
YMMV

CatsCatsCats

  • 🤷‍♀️
  • Senior Member
When it comes down to it, they were both hugely impactful in their fields, and it's apples and oranges. So 9/10 for the topic, a good stir up :clap

You couldn't get away with brushing off either of them

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
It literally almost teared me up to think about the impact those two black men had. I was listening to that Like Mike video looking like :mjcry.

We certainly owe them the respect they were and are given.
YMMV

Himu

  • Senior Member
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.
IYKYK

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

There is more talent top to bottom now than in the 90's. Just sayin :yeshrug


And in terms of Jordan. everyone points to him for the global rise of basketball.
YMMV

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
Jordan could sink a basket in the clutch like nobody could or has.

Jackson could barely not drop a baby from a balcony.
©ZH

seagrams hotsauce

  • Senior Member
Michael Jackson .

Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.

Yet Jordan's shoes sell in every continent on the planet.

You can cop Thriller if you manage to get a cell connection in antarctica, but I'm guessing there isn't a foot locker in the region. Mike also sold out arenas in every market of the world for like fifteen years (sorry for the #actually)

It's a tough comparison. Professionally, they both had great early and mid careers before hitting stretches of mediocrity. Personality wise, everything I've heard about Jordan makes him out to be a dickhead, and what more needs to be said about Jackson?

Personally, I'd choose Jackson since Off The Wall still gets spins. Besides, he may or may not have touched kids, but at least he never cursed the world with team Jordans  :yuck

Himu

  • Senior Member
The thing about that is it's hard to know if the rise of the NBA internationally was just Jordan or the fact that 90's basketball fucking owned and was full of talent. It was called the Dream Team for a reason.

There is more talent top to bottom now than in the 90's. Just sayin :yeshrug

I'd disagree with that heavily. :yeshrug
IYKYK

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Let's see, for the under 45 crowd I'll take the Internet as a barometer

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=Michael+Jackson&word2=Michael+Jordan+

No further comment
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=michael%20jordan%2C%20michael%20jackson&cmpt=q&tz=

I wish Google Trends went back to the 90s. We'll have to revisit this when Jordan croaks.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Michael Jackson .

Basketball's global rise ain't fully here yet.

Yet Jordan's shoes sell in every continent on the planet.

You can cop Thriller if you manage to get a cell connection in antarctica, but I'm guessing there isn't a foot locker in the region. Mike also sold out arenas in every market of the world for like fifteen years (sorry for the #actually)

It's a tough comparison. Professionally, they both had great early and mid careers before hitting stretches of mediocrity. Personality wise, everything I've heard about Jordan makes him out to be a dickhead, and what more needs to be said about Jackson?

Personally, I'd choose Jackson since Off The Wall still gets spins. Besides, he may or may not have touched kids, but at least he never cursed the world with team Jordans  :yuck

Off The Wall the GOAT Jackson album :bow
IYKYK

Am_I_Anonymous

  • And I'm pretty sure fuck you (italics implied)
  • Senior Member
How exactly is being the billionaire owner of an NBA franchise (First black person to do so) mediocre in your book?
YMMV