THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 04:48:59 PM

Title: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 04:48:59 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVpwL7hU4AAPwF4.png:large)

So do we still have to pretend that he isn't a complete shithead and the people who support him aren't racists?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Shadow Mod on December 07, 2015, 04:50:06 PM
I thought all of that was the attraction.  :doge
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 07, 2015, 04:52:30 PM
Yaeh, what's going on
Ah, what's going on
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
The thing is we probably need to round up the ones already here and put them in camps. Or maybe just have armed citizen militas in front of mosques to show them what time it is.

Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Phoenix Dark on December 07, 2015, 05:01:14 PM
leading GOP presidential candidate
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 05:03:13 PM
leading GOP presidential candidate

Do we also still have to pretend that one party in this country isn't completely insane and that the justifications made to vote for them are also insane at this point?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Shadow Mod on December 07, 2015, 05:06:07 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: studyguy on December 07, 2015, 05:11:08 PM
How does one classify a Muslim though according to Trump? Can't help but think it'll generally be brown skin people from in and around the middle east, even if they have no relation to Islam. This is how Sikh and stuff get shit on by mistake. smh
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 05:13:36 PM
How does one classify a Muslim though according to Trump?

Muslims have green blood.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: brawndolicious on December 07, 2015, 05:15:47 PM
I think he's just trying to radicalize his platform so he can justify why he has to break his pledge and run independent. He's not stupid enough to think this will help him in the general election, but I do think he has a big enough ego that if he loses to Hillary bug gets more votes than Rubio or whoever is Republican nominee, then he'll go around saying that he would have won if the media/establishment or whatever didn't conspire against him.

/wishfulthinking
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Rufus on December 07, 2015, 05:52:48 PM
These days I'm not surprised by politicians who hold radical positions. I'm more dismayed by the popular support they get. People vote for scumbags like these.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 05:54:58 PM
These days I'm not surprised by politicians who hold radical positions. I'm more dismayed by the popular support they get. People vote for scumbags like these.

The past year has reminded me of those years post 9/11 where a large percentage of the country got extra extra stupid.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Phoenix Dark on December 07, 2015, 06:25:32 PM
Kinda surprised the president or media hasn't already called this man a bigot.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 07, 2015, 06:31:08 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35035190

Soon after his statement was released, Mr Trump's Republican rival Ben Carson called on all visitors to the US to "register and be monitored" during their stay.

But his spokesman added: "We do not and would not advocate being selective on one's religion."

Another Republican presidential hopeful, Senator Lindsey Graham, urged all those running to condemn Mr Trump's remarks.

Jeb Bush, former Florida Governor, immediately obliged, calling Mr Trump "unhinged".


Seems like a working strategy to get the nomination. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 07, 2015, 06:42:44 PM
Kinda surprised the president or media hasn't already called this man a bigot.

The whole thing has been treated like a joke the entire time even though he is currently the most popular republican. Hell he hosted Saturday night live. Being a popular/leading presidential candidate and being considered a "joke" seems to give you cover from any hateful language you put out there.

He's still one of the more honest republicans out there. While his views are reprehensible at least he says them in a reprehensible manner so there is no confusion instead of the usual racist or prejudicial code words that instead are employed.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: studyguy on December 07, 2015, 07:05:56 PM
Listen , we're going to ban the mooslems, but really. They're going to come to us and say, okay, I get it. We're the good ones so it's okay, we're all really good friends with Mr. Trump. I know how this goes, trust me, I'm good with these people, we'll make America great again.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: tiesto on December 07, 2015, 08:15:59 PM
BTW, this guy's views are the most in-line with the majority of the modern Republican electorate:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/11/donald_trump_is_a_moderate_republican_that_s_why_he_s_winning.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/11/donald_trump_is_a_moderate_republican_that_s_why_he_s_winning.html)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: CajoleJuice on December 07, 2015, 08:20:15 PM
At least this would simplify who's moving where in my current long-distance relationship.  :-\
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: I'm a Puppy! on December 07, 2015, 08:35:03 PM
You know, it's kinda neat to see history repeating itself. Like I wonder if this "hijacked" feeling is what Germans felt when Hitler was running for power. :doge
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Barry Egan on December 07, 2015, 08:42:02 PM
http://time.com/4139975/trump-scheduled-rnc-fundraiser/

RNC just dropped trump from their fundraiser...
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: ToxicAdam on December 07, 2015, 08:54:31 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.

Gross.





Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: I'm a Puppy! on December 07, 2015, 09:05:09 PM
http://time.com/4139975/trump-scheduled-rnc-fundraiser/

RNC just dropped trump from their fundraiser...
To be fair, I believe it says "no presidential candidates" not just trump? :doge
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Barry Egan on December 07, 2015, 09:19:15 PM
I think he was the only one scheduled to go in the first place though.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: seagrams hotsauce on December 07, 2015, 09:39:32 PM
http://time.com/4139975/trump-scheduled-rnc-fundraiser/

RNC just dropped trump from their fundraiser...
To be fair, I believe it says "no presidential candidates" not just trump? :doge
nah he was gonna smooth it out with the establishment, but alas
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/donald-trump-rnc-fundraising-215164?cmpid=sf#ixzz3phIFfDhs
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: I'm a Puppy! on December 07, 2015, 09:42:45 PM
I just have a hard time seeing the RNC distancing itself from such a stance. I mean, let's be honest.  :yeshrug
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Phoenix Dark on December 07, 2015, 09:55:05 PM
Quote
"Well I think this whole notion that somehow we need to say no more Muslims and just ban a whole religion goes against everything we stand for and believe in. I mean religious freedom’s been a very important part of our, our history.”

— Dick Cheney, the former vice president, speaking to the conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt and referring to a proposal by Donald J. Trump to bar Muslims from entering the country.
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/12/07/verbatim-dick-cheney-criticizes-donald-trumps-muslim-policy/?smid=tw-nytpolitics&smtyp=cur

when you've lost Dick Cheney...
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Shadow Mod on December 07, 2015, 10:10:13 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.

Gross.

Sometimes there is no other side. :yeshrug
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: ToxicAdam on December 07, 2015, 10:23:18 PM
But what does that mean? If someone voices "a side" that has zero support, then .... ?

Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: seagrams hotsauce on December 07, 2015, 10:34:05 PM
https://twitter.com/hashtag/gottahearbothsides
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Rufus on December 07, 2015, 10:55:46 PM
But what does that mean? If someone voices "a side" that has zero support, then .... ?
They still get air time eye to eye with people that are to be taken seriously. That gives them more legitimacy than they actually have. I'm thinking of Alex Jones types, climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, etc.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: ToxicAdam on December 07, 2015, 11:13:20 PM
Maybe in an era of three broadcast stations that concern has some kind of merit, but when Youtube personalities get more eyeballs than a typical news program and anyone can create a platform of their own, it seems like an antiquated idea. Pandora's box is open and there is only one way to close it.

Plus, mainstream news knows that acrimony gets the most attention. I've seen them trawl Twitter or YouTube comments just to get a "counter point" on even the most benign topic. It appears to be human nature.
Title: We also need Bill Gates to close the Internet
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 08, 2015, 12:52:55 AM
Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on December 08, 2015, 02:45:49 AM
USA really is no different then Europe it seems.

This is exactly what has been going on here for the past 15 years.

You know, it's kinda neat to see history repeating itself. Like I wonder if this "hijacked" feeling is what Germans felt when Hitler was running for power. :doge

Hitler won with a national socialist agenda, antisemitism was a very small part of the whole thing, Trump is anything but national socialist
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: ToxicAdam on December 08, 2015, 09:00:08 AM
Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point

The internet is a series of tubes. You just block the bad tubes.

Title: Re: We also need Bill Gates to close the Internet
Post by: Rufus on December 08, 2015, 10:27:01 AM
Maybe in an era of three broadcast stations that concern has some kind of merit, but when Youtube personalities get more eyeballs than a typical news program and anyone can create a platform of their own, it seems like an antiquated idea. Pandora's box is open and there is only one way to close it.

Plus, mainstream news knows that acrimony gets the most attention. I've seen them trawl Twitter or YouTube comments just to get a "counter point" on even the most benign topic. It appears to be human nature.
And challenging those people on their tripe would be bad for business, I know. It's all stupid, someone hold me. :tocry

Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point
Bill fucking Gates will fix it (not sure what it even is), because that's a name everyone knows. :picard
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Joe Molotov on December 08, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point

The internet is a series of tubes. You just block the bad tubes.

Build a wall around the Internet, and we'll have a door, and the good ones, we'll let them back in.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Am_I_Anonymous on December 08, 2015, 10:33:28 AM
Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point

The internet is a series of tubes. You just block the bad tubes.

Build a wall around the Internet, and we'll have a door, and the good ones, we'll let them back in.

(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/kloRHIxhTOyTfVxy1LnOZg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztxPTg1O3c9NjUw/http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/en_us/Finance/US_AFTP_SILICONALLEY_H_LIVE/One_of_the_key_arguments-9c151420a5ed2d565cfb89e605d1a3f3)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: chronovore on December 08, 2015, 07:40:55 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.

Yeah, I remember in the run-up to the Gore/Bush election, everyone said, "There's no difference between which side you vote! They're all corrupt!"

Sure, maybe that's true, but can anyone say with any honesty that we would have gone back to Iraq if Gore had been in office? And that's eschewing discussion about the differences inherent between an environmentalist and an oil tycoon.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 08, 2015, 07:52:48 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.

Yeah, I remember in the run-up to the Gore/Bush election, everyone said, "There's no difference between which side you vote! They're all corrupt!"

Sure, maybe that's true, but can anyone say with any honesty that we would have gone back to Iraq if Gore had been in office? And that's eschewing discussion about the differences inherent between an environmentalist and an oil tycoon.

One my biggest pet peeves is the rise of that whole Douche/Turd Sandwich meme that rose from South Park that gave us this dumb-ass take on politics that both sides are equal and there is no meaningful difference between the two parties on major issues and how that effects the legislation that gets passed and a lot of other things. Its such an absolute asinine and simplistic way to view the world.

Which is not to say that either party is some perfect pure bastion of goodness. That is impossible in a political system period and especially in the limited 2 party system we have.

There is a part of me that hopes Trump gets the nomination so that it fundamentally breaks the republican party between economics and social conservatives.

If trumps gets the nomination, I also look forward to all the justifications on why voting for Trump isn't such a bad thing.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 08:01:23 PM
This is an interesting piece:

http://www.salon.com/2011/08/30/gore_president_iraq/

Quote
This explains why, during one inspection showdown in 1998, a Gallup poll found that nearly 70 percent of Americans wanted President Clinton to use airstrikes to target Hussein himself (instead of just his supposed weapons installations), and 60 percent wanted American ground forces to launch an invasion.

Damn, Americans are terrible.

Quote
. . .It should be noted that when he announced his opposition to Bush’s war push in the fall of ’02, Gore endorsed the basic goal of removing Hussein and securing his (supposed) WMD stockpiles. What he objected to was more the go-it-alone nature of Bush’s approach.

Fuck, this shitty world we live in was inevitable and our choices really are Turd Sandwich vs. a Giant Douche. 2008 was a once in a lifetime anomaly.   

 :goty2
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 08, 2015, 08:13:21 PM
Keep in mind at that point America's most recent experience in the Middle East was the first Gulf war, which went pretty much like clockwork because we didn't have a lengthy occupation, so lazy, stupid Americans (arguably a majority of the country) probably thought any military action would be an equal cake walk. Derp.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 08:20:50 PM
That's exactly what the piece said. The point is that it's easy to look back from 2015 and see the huge divide between the left and right presently, but in 2000 the divide wasn't so great and Saddam Hussein was the most prominent cultural bogeyman. At that moment in time Pax Americana was at its peak and after 9/11 the US had a unique opportunity to reshape the world in its image with (some) justification.

Obviously that gamble was a huge failure that has spiraled completely out of control in ways no one could imagine, but it's only easy to see now with the benefit of hindsight.
Title: Re: We also need Bill Gates to close the Internet
Post by: Mr. Gundam on December 08, 2015, 09:32:28 PM
Quote
"We're losing a lot of people because of the internet," Trump said. "We have to see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them about, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/7/9869308/donald-trump-close-up-the-internet-bill-gates#show-last-Point

It's shit like this that makes me think Trump is trolling the right.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Great Rumbler on December 08, 2015, 09:46:55 PM
This is an interesting piece:

http://www.salon.com/2011/08/30/gore_president_iraq/

Quote
This explains why, during one inspection showdown in 1998, a Gallup poll found that nearly 70 percent of Americans wanted President Clinton to use airstrikes to target Hussein himself (instead of just his supposed weapons installations), and 60 percent wanted American ground forces to launch an invasion.

Damn, Americans are terrible.

Quote
. . .It should be noted that when he announced his opposition to Bush’s war push in the fall of ’02, Gore endorsed the basic goal of removing Hussein and securing his (supposed) WMD stockpiles. What he objected to was more the go-it-alone nature of Bush’s approach.

Fuck, this shitty world we live in was inevitable and our choices really are Turd Sandwich vs. a Giant Douche. 2008 was a once in a lifetime anomaly.   

 :goty2


Gore, I assume, wasn't privy at the time to the intelligence that the Bush administration had that showed nothing they were using as justification was true.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Am_I_Anonymous on December 08, 2015, 10:30:28 PM
That's exactly what the piece said. The point is that it's easy to look back from 2015 and see the huge divide between the left and right presently, but in 2000 the divide wasn't so great and Saddam Hussein was the most prominent cultural bogeyman. At that moment in time Pax Americana was at its peak and after 9/11 the US had a unique opportunity to reshape the world in its image with (some) justification.

Obviously that gamble was a huge failure that has spiraled completely out of control in ways no one could imagine, but it's only easy to see now with the benefit of hindsight.

Is it really though? While the world is distracted the biggest consumer of oil in the world per capita just cut off it's foot to fell a giant.

I'd say we are doing okay. It has a whole Japan 80's type of economic warfare vibe. You should probably cross check ISIS international activity to the price of oil....but I'm sure you have already :)

I mean if simple old me can see oil prices are imploding ISIS; can't we all? Obama is right, we got this. And I'm a conservative saying that.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 08, 2015, 10:41:05 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35047105

Quote
He defended the idea on Tuesday, comparing it to policies implemented by President Franklin Roosevelt during World War Two against Japanese, German and Italian people in the US.

SMFH

jesus.  Defend your position by comparing it to something which is universally considered unethical and ineffective.   

I can't image what this would be like hearing this and living in the middle east.  Actually I image its a lot like how American's act every time an Iranian politician says something against America to get power. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Am_I_Anonymous on December 08, 2015, 10:48:50 PM
We are utilizing a new method of warfare. Something tells me Trumph is helping us more than he even thinks
 Lord knows he won't sniff a presidency but it's kinda nice to make the world pay attention again for a second. If he has done anything he has made the world realize that we matter, again.

Not a fan of the dude but I'll take the rep his name is bringing us across the water
 And trust me, it is.

Just some real talk here. Fuck party lines.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mods Help on December 08, 2015, 10:53:29 PM
This is what happens when you let that "both sides" shit take hold.

Yeah, I remember in the run-up to the Gore/Bush election, everyone said, "There's no difference between which side you vote! They're all corrupt!"

Sure, maybe that's true, but can anyone say with any honesty that we would have gone back to Iraq if Gore had been in office? And that's eschewing discussion about the differences inherent between an environmentalist and an oil tycoon.

Don't be mistaken. He probably would have. I doubt they would have in such an illegal manner, though.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: chronovore on December 08, 2015, 10:55:50 PM
With all my heart, I believe that Gore would not have sent troops to Iraq or attempted an occupation.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mods Help on December 08, 2015, 11:03:28 PM
Maybe you're right.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 08, 2015, 11:19:09 PM
I think he would have sent troops, possibly toppled Saddam but would like to believe he would have been smart enough not to occupy at all or make the disastrous mistakes the Bush regime did in regards to the early stages of the occupation.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 11:20:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chhsUU1FSi8

This video is nuts
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 08, 2015, 11:26:34 PM
Going by the video title, guessing this is suppose to be controversal video (not that that this is why you are posting it).  Did they not have chemical weapons and a nuclear program before the first war?  Had in 1992 is different than had in 2001.

Had things been different I bet Afghanistan would have been done better before an invasion of Iraq.  There wasn't a lot of reason why Iraq couldn't have waited other than a fear that voters would loss their taste for war, in which case Gore would have been let off the hook. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 11:33:48 PM
It's just a shocking video for me because I became politically aware sometime in the early 2000s and it's so strange to hear Al Gore the hawk taking the (first) Bush Administration to task for being soft on Saddam, bringing up WMD (including nuclear) programs, talking about metal pipes, and linking Iraq to terrorism.

Switch some names around and it could be justification for the invasion being given in 2002 or it could be Ted Cruz attacking Obama for being soft on IS/Iran/etc. today.

This is where the "both sides are the same" Turd Sandwich meme came from and why it was more relevant 10 years ago than perhaps today.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 08, 2015, 11:39:22 PM
Well, in defense of Republicans there IS a black man in the White House, which I guess means you should freak out and become racist douchebags or whatever.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 11:43:15 PM
I honestly can't even imagine an Al Gore/Joe Lieberman presidency after hearing Gore talk like this.

And here's Joe Lieberman begging for more troops in Iraq/criticizing the withdrawal way back in 2006:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXyoyKGNZJg
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 08, 2015, 11:55:08 PM
Lieberman in 2006 parroting the GOP's victory (more troops)/defeat (leave) binary option emotional nonsense in Iraq and Chuck Hagel (RIP in peace :usacry) giving him a dose of real talk. This was going to be the voice in Gore's ear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUf7vbuzMxI

Sorry for hijacking your thread Stoney Mason, it's just interesting seeing this stuff now with the benefit of hindsight and how our narratives evolve.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 09, 2015, 12:04:49 AM
TBF I think its a lot different being a minor elected official to being a president/Defense Secretary in terms of what information you get which shapes your position.  If all you are hearing is the facts coming out of a Bush white house you might have the same opinion compared to if your the person who has to decide to trust the defense department on yellow cake or be the voice of the DD on yellow cake. 

I kind of feel like lots of politicians have to make statements to get in the game without actually being in positions which would make them knowledgeable enough to make real statements in the first place, especially on defense and security issues.  Kennedy's missle gap always comes to mind on this.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 12:13:18 AM
We are utilizing a new method of warfare. Something tells me Trumph is helping us more than he even thinks
 Lord knows he won't sniff a presidency but it's kinda nice to make the world pay attention again for a second. If he has done anything he has made the world realize that we matter, again.

Not a fan of the dude but I'll take the rep his name is bringing us across the water
 And trust me, it is.

Just some real talk here. Fuck party lines.
Read this as Triumph.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 12:13:34 AM
By 2006 Lieberman had become so hawkish that he lost to Ned Lamont in the Democratic primary and had to run as an independent to keep his seat.  He then campaigned for McCain in '08, and when the Democratic leadership let him keep his seniority/subcommittee chairmanship it was the first real episode of the "Obama's not a real liberal/is spineless" series of hot takes.

Also god damn you, making me frantically google Chuck Hagel to see if he'd died.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Brehvolution on December 09, 2015, 12:14:40 AM
Quote
)Obama is right, we got this. And I'm a conservative saying that.

Stop saying this. It's like the 'I'm gay and that's the reason I say this shit' dude. We need to come together and put this partisan shit in the dumpster.

Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 09, 2015, 12:16:36 AM
You're gay. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)
and I'm gay and that's the reason I say this shit
[close]
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 12:19:41 AM
I don't think anyone's brought it up in the thread, but before Trump spouted off, Rand Paul had already called for basically the same thing, only targeting immigrants from the Middle East rather than Muslims.

Presumably "Middle East" is excluding Israel in this case, so...
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 09, 2015, 12:28:13 AM
Israel is in the middel east? 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 09, 2015, 12:29:11 AM
I don't think anyone's brought it up in the thread, but before Trump spouted off, Rand Paul had already called for basically the same thing, only targeting immigrants from the Middle East rather than Muslims.

Presumably "Middle East" is excluding Israel in this case, so...

I don't know about that, this is Ron Paul's son so...
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 12:33:49 AM
Sorry for hijacking your thread Stoney Mason, it's just interesting seeing this stuff now with the benefit of hindsight and how our narratives evolve.
I'll bail you out by hijacking it worse:
You know, it's kinda neat to see history repeating itself. Like I wonder if this "hijacked" feeling is what Germans felt when Hitler was running for power. :doge
Here's the problem though, Hitler sent Germans all over the place to invite new immigrants into Germany and its sphere.

I prefer to think of past upstanding Americans:
Quote
As the former President of MIT has said:
Quote
He argued that the “indiscriminate hospitality” to more whose homes would be “filled by others as miserable as themselves” would not make up for any “permanent injury done to our republic,” and that with the success of the American “experiment” more would be done for the [home nations] than “allowing its city slums and its vast stagnant reservoirs of degraded peasantry to be drained off upon our soil.”
And Representative Johnson warns:
Quote
in a few years down the road without further restriction the currently despairing immigrants “will be pounding heavily at the very pillars of our government, where those who have come ahead of them a few years back with their socialism, their communism, their [revolutions], have merely gnawing like rats at our foundations.”
Representative Box of Texas has outlined our future:
Quote
if America destroyed the “work of our fathers” and became “another Europe or Asia” leaving a world that would “grow visibly darker, even to the people of foreign lands, and all that is worth living for will have been lost to us, whether we came recently or our fathers came long ago.”
Senator Heflin pointed out that in past wars we went:
Quote
“across the seas to defeat a foreign foe and prevent a foreign army from invading America” the current immigration laws were allowing “the enemy through loopholes … to come right into the American household.” Heflin asserted that if American troops had “fought to keep the enemy out, surely we can vote for a law that will keep out the dangerous and deadly enemies of the country
Republican Congressman Cable of Ohio:
Quote
called for the two parties to “unite in forming an ‘American bloc’ and that neither yield to the foreign influence,” declaring that “partisan politics have no place in this patriotic question.”
He also noted that in certain cities, illegal immigrants were being favored by local policy:
Quote
eighty percent of the city’s population was “foreign-stock” and that the vote displayed “the effect of the foreign born in the United States in attempting to dictate to Congress what laws should [be made].”
Representative Box was on point when he argued this isn't discrimination, instead that:
Quote
“America has the gift of citizenship, home and opportunity to bestow as she chooses upon the worthy alien people who she many select, no Government and no group … has the right to question the exercise of America’s discretion in making such a choice.”
He also pointed out of that many of these illegal immigrant groups are basically making the equivalent of a threat that:
Quote
“we already have admitted among us large, dangerous elements, and that we must admit more of them to keep them in a good and orderly humor.”
While Republican Bill Vaile has knocked down all the hooey about how important immigrants are to America:
Quote
“it seems rather illogical … to claim that those who have been for the shortest time in the process of assimilation and in the work of the Republic should have even greater or even equal consideration because of this very newness.” And that it was “a fact, not merely an argument, that this country was created, kept united and developed … almost entirely by people who came here from the countries of Northern and Western Europe.”

But it's Democrat Stengle of New York who might best sum up the importance of borders, language, culture:
Quote
“many of the inhabitants of these cities appear to be tied up to foreign countries by their sympathies, customs, interests, and aspirations, and apparently but little interested in the future welfare of their adopted country.” 

From the Congressional (and selected media) debates over:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
Quote
it severely restricted the immigration of Africans and outright banned the immigration of Arabs and Asians

Earlier act we could just dust off and get things about right with a few additions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1917
(dat map)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 09, 2015, 12:33:51 AM
Quote
Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia,Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen, and the Palestinian Territories.

Rand's amendment was rejected last week but Cruz voted for it. I don't think they all hate Muslims but it's pretty obvious they are all willing to throw them under the bus to win (save maybe Jeb.)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: drew on December 09, 2015, 12:51:03 AM
This will kill Trump's campaign no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 12:55:07 AM
This will kill Trump's campaign no doubt about it.
https://twitter.com/philipaklein/status/673995262767927297
Quote
Philip KleinVerified account
‏@philipaklein

. @realDonaldTrump will get days of coverage in which GOP rivals, Obama, Clinton, media, will all sound same. This is bad for him how?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: thisismyusername on December 09, 2015, 01:05:34 AM
This will kill Trump's campaign no doubt about it.

Not really. Did you see the Daily Show with Trevor Noah bit with the supporters he has?

*dude looks around like it's just him and the reporter* "Yes, I support him banning all Muslims."

Trevor: "Dude, your secret is safe with her and the Central News Network."  :doge

(Oh and he did a bit about how Trump totally wants to fuck his daughter which was pretty :holeup )
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 01:07:36 AM
Quote
Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Egypt, Eritrea, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia,Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen, and the Palestinian Territories.

Rand's amendment was rejected last week but Cruz voted for it. I don't think they all hate Muslims but it's pretty obvious they are all willing to throw them under the bus to win (save maybe Jeb.)
He forgot India. (#3 in Muslims.)

And Malaysia, Ethiopia, Russia, Niger, Tanzania, Senegal, and Mali? (#20-26 in number of Muslims...and all with 15-20x the number of Muslims as Bahrain. Also, greater % of the population except Russia.)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 01:08:40 AM
(Oh and he did a bit about how Trump totally wants to fuck his daughter which was pretty :holeup )
I knew this years ago from watching the inferior The Apprentice. He sorta feels the same way about Donald Jr.

But not Eric. Nobody cares about Eric.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 01:35:48 AM
Rand's amendment was rejected last week but Cruz voted for it. I don't think they all hate Muslims but it's pretty obvious they are all willing to throw them under the bus to win (save maybe Jeb.)

Yes.

The problem isn't Trump himself, it's the racism and xenophobia that are deep and broad enough that he's been able to maintain a high level of support months into the campaign.  I still don't think he's getting anywhere close to the nomination, but if/when his polling numbers finally crash it will be too late to say it was because people were repulsed by his views.  Those voters will still be a key part of any Republican victory scenario, and the candidates know they have to placate that crowd, though in a more respectable way.

Seen a few Republicans suggest, with varying degrees of seriousness, that Trump is really a mole sent by the Clintons to make the Republican party look bad.  "Help, he tricked us into being racist by saying racist things and getting us to applaud!"  If it is a long con, it ain't exactly The Sting.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 01:50:03 AM
It's been a self-reinforcing cycle where things have swung into Trump's wheelhouse. I think what Trump refuses to say/qualify/etc. has helped him as much if not more as the things he actually says.

From that CNN NH poll:
Quote
The recent terrorist attacks in Paris and San Bernardino have redefined this race as one about foreign policy. Half (50%) of Republican Primary voters cite foreign policy or national security, including terrorism, as the most important in deciding to vote in the presidential primary. This represents a 29 percentage popint increase since September. Eighteen percent (18%) of likely Republican Primary voters cite jobs or the economy, 12% cite immigration, 4% cite the budget or national debt, 4% cite health care, 1% cite social issues, 1% cite taxes and 1% cite education.

...

When asked who could best manage government spending 42% chose Trump, 10% chose Bush, 9% chose Kasich and 8% were unsure.

A third of likely voters (33%) chose Trump as the best to handle ISIS, 11% chose Bush, 9% chose Christie and 15% were unsure.

Forty-five percent (45%) chose Trump as the best to handle illegal immigration, 14% chose Rubio, 11% chose Bush and 9% unsure.

Thirty-six percent (36%) chose Trump as the best to handle taxation, 10% chose Bush, 8% chose Kasich and 14% were unsure.

From CNN's Iowa poll:
Quote
Candidate would do the best job handling:
The economy: Trump 52%, Carson 10%, Cruz 10%
Illegal Immigration: Trump 49%, Cruz 16%, Rubio 11%
Foreign Policy: Trump 30%, Cruz 21%, Rubio 13%
ISIS: Trump 41%, Cruz 18%, Bush/Rubio 9%

Has best chance of winning the general: Trump 42%, Cruz 17%, Carson/Rubio 11%

Most important issue
GOP: 29% economy, 27% terrorism, 13% foreign policy, 10% illegal immigration
DEM: 38% economy, 22% health care, 13% terrorism, 10% foreign policy
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: chronovore on December 09, 2015, 01:50:24 AM
(Oh and he did a bit about how Trump totally wants to fuck his daughter which was pretty :holeup )

To be fair, I'd kinda like to nail his daughter, too. She has fantastic annunciation. I can only imagine the dirty talk...

:lawd
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 01:53:57 AM
It's been a self-reinforcing cycle where things have swung into Trump's wheelhouse.

Sure, but the fact that scary brown people are his "wheelhouse" is kinda the problem.

Would like to see how those cross-tabs change after he loses his massive advantage in media coverage.  Will he get slammed on a couple particular issues, or will those numbers fall more or less uniformly?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 09, 2015, 02:09:26 AM
I have plenty of liberal friends that believe the "Trump is a Clinton ploy" thing, or that SOMEONE out there is pulling his strings.

I'm still a firm believer in Occam's razor, though, and until someone can offer me a better explanation than "Blowhard egomaniac that happens to be Worthington's Law made flesh with long history of saying stupid shit says more stupid shit," I think that's the most plausible scenario.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: jakefromstatefarm on December 09, 2015, 02:11:43 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1917
these were passed during the height of the eugenics movement in America, you can see it reflected in some of the language:
Quote
Sec. 9. That it shall be unlawful for any person, including any transportation company other than railway lines entering the United States from foreign contiguous territory, or the owner, master, agent, or consignee of any vessel to bring to the United States either from a foreign country or any insular possession of the United States any alien afflicted with idiocy, insanity, imbecility, feeble-mindedness, epilepsy, constitutional psychopathic inferiority, chronic alcoholism, tuberculosis in any form, or a loathsome or dangerous contagious disease, and if it shall appear to the satisfaction of the Secretary of Labor that any alien so brought to the United States was afflicted with any of the said diseases or disabilities at the time of foreign embarkation, and that the existence of such disease of disability might have been detected by means of a competent medical examination at such time, such person or transportation company, or the master, agent, owner, or consignee of any such vessel shall pay to the collector of customs of the customs district in which the port of arrival is located the sum of $1,000, and in addition a sum equal to that paid by such alien for his transportation from the initial point of departure, indicated in his ticket, to the port of arrival for each and every violation of the provisions of this section, such latter sum to be delivered by the collector of customs to the alien on whose account assessed. It shall also be unlawful for any such person to bring to any port of the United States any alien afflicted with any mental defect other than those above specifically named, or physical defect of a nature which may affect his ability to earn a living, as contemplated in section 3 of this Act, and if it shall appear to the satisfaction of the Secretary of Labor that any alien so brought to the United States was so afflicted at the time of foreign embarkation, and that the existence of such mental or physical defect might have been detected by means of a competent medical examination at such time, such person shall pay to the collector of customs of the customs district in which the port of arrival is located the sum of $250, and in addition a sum equal to that paid by such alien for his transportation from the initial point of departure, indicated in his ticket, to the port of arrival, for each and every violation of this provision such latter sum to be delivered by the collector of customs of the alien for whose account assessed.
legislation nominally targeted at people with revolutionary ideology or a (perceived) inability to labor within a market capitalist economy enabled by racist pseudo-science. when you see it euphemized as 'designed to preserve American homogeneity', that's what that means.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 02:19:59 AM
Scary brown people are a key issue for the GOP.  Trump's just the most-willing salesman. Since his ego is too big to ever admit wrongs it makes him look tough and the others like they're backing down to the lieberal media.

The racist mobs taking over colleges and kicking out white people, expansion of ISIS and the recent terrorism were all opportunities for other candidates to use those issues, but his unwavering rock solid image has made him now an expert on all those issues too, while the others continue to seem like politicians. Even attacking Trump re-enforces this cycle. He had already picked up the jobs and economy ones just from talking about his great deals and negotiating ability and being a businessman.

Carson was largely immune because he was in a similar position, but then he got overtaken by events right as his image was getting battered.

If Trump drops, I think Cruz is the largest beneficiary. They agree on the key scary brown people issues, and unlike Rubio, Cruz has never tried to sell out America to the Forces of Shamnesty.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 02:21:07 AM
these were passed during the height of the eugenics movement in America, you can see it reflected in some of the language

legislation nominally targeted at people with revolutionary ideology or a (perceived) inability to labor within a market capitalist economy enabled by racist pseudo-science. when you see it euphemized as 'designed to preserve American homogeneity', that's what that means.
It can't happen here.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on December 09, 2015, 06:18:07 AM
I think trump might go all the way if muslin fear and hate is as strong in the us as in the eu

Right wing anti immigrant and muslim parties have won everywhere here
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 09, 2015, 07:33:49 AM
I think trump might go all the way if muslin fear and hate is as strong in the us as in the eu

Right wing anti immigrant and muslim parties have won everywhere here

I never put anything beyond the dumbness of average people. And as pointed out earlier, its not like the rest of the republicans have been much better than Trump. He's just the one willing to say the most insane shit out loud instead of just using the general fear/hate mongering toward arabs. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 07:56:07 AM
I think that's where a lot of the shock value of Trump is coming from. He's not a politician, he also gives no fucks, so he has no problem with letting his rhetoric get impolitic as he runs with the crowd.

His actual policy isn't some extremist right-wing of the GOP, if anything he's probably in the "middle" of the field. If you were to stick Pataki on one wing and Cruz on the other.

The exception is obviously immigration. But there, Trump is in line with the base voter of the party. It's the establishment and their politicians far out of step because they're drooling at the idea that some kind of amnesty will win the party the hispanic vote. Everybody was muddling up their immigration positions, including the ones who were closer to Trump, and it left the massive opening for Trump to jabber on about Mexicans and suddenly seize the issue and put it on the forefront, and send the former anti-immigrant candidates to scramble back and even the shamnesty ones like Rubio and Jeb? to start trying harder to mask it.

I mean, is Trump wanting to ban Islamic immigrants for a period a worse or better position than wrecking up the Middle East constantly like some "sane" candidates (Rubio, Christie, Graham, Jeb, etc.) advocate on the regular? I'm not sure if presented with the false choice I wouldn't prefer Trump's ban, especially if it could be sunsetted in the law. (And knowing the ban on American citizens returning would never hold up in court. Along with who knows how much else of it would get chopped up.)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 08:04:45 AM
It's the establishment and their politicians far out of step because they're drooling at the idea that some kind of amnesty will win the party the hispanic vote.

You really gotta stop reading Mickey Kaus, man.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Stoney Mason on December 09, 2015, 08:05:31 AM
I mean, is Trump wanting to ban Islamic immigrants for a period a worse or better position than wrecking up the Middle East constantly like some "sane" candidates (Rubio, Christie, Graham, Jeb, etc.) advocate on the regular? I'm not sure if presented with the false choice I wouldn't prefer Trump's ban, especially if it could be sunsetted in the law. (And knowing the ban on American citizens returning would never hold up in court. Along with who knows how much else of it would get chopped up.)

The thing is I'm even going to parse it. All their policies are a mix of either being morally disgusting or completely ineffective and not understanding the larger problems that are going on in the middle east and where isil/isis fit into those issues. There are the same people who can't understand that going into iraq was a large ingredient that caused this situation so the fact that they want to repeat the same mistakes again isn't remotely surprising. Our policy has either been misguided or manipulative in the middle east for decades and it doesn't look to change any time soon. 

The fact that saying the most disgusting things has put him at the top of the polls should be a wake up call for America. But nothing ever functions that way in this society. It's been a hilarious goof to people this whole time.  It's why that whole armed people going to mosques thing pissed me off. The fact that shit like that is happening but people aren't talking about it says leagues to me mixed in with his position.

As much as I disagree with Ron Paul on economic issues where is the Republican saying any of this. Certainly not his idiotic son. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQrwKr_b4Lg
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 08:20:19 AM
You really gotta stop reading Mickey Kaus, man.
I haven't in forever, his site became just a republishing of his twitter feed. :-\

But that notion goes back a ways and beyond Kaus, it was a major reason Turd Blossom pushed so hard for W. and the GOP to use political capital on "comprehensive immigration reform" during 2005-2007. And it has been simmering every since from my trolling of conservative circles for a decade plus.

I may have overstated with "win the hispanic vote" rather than "make it competitive."

I just learned this from visiting Kaus though: That Quinnipiac poll had Ted Cruz with a better favorability among Hispanics (-8) than Rubio (-20).

As much as I disagree with Ron Paul on economic issues where is the Republican saying any of this. Certainly not his idiotic son.
As disappointing as Rand has been, this is one area he hasn't been that bad on chasing votes he'll never get thankfully.

Debate clips in spoiler:
spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7rntFsL1mE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUK9KHva1MM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9exfIk8bOGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6PeLaW11fI
[close]
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 09, 2015, 08:30:46 AM
I forgot, but Rand was talking some serious bullshit after the Charlie Hebdo shooting, too.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: benjipwns on December 09, 2015, 08:46:20 AM
He's stuck well to his core foreign policy/marijuana/criminal justice reform, but he's been all over the map on the national security apparatus and immigration especially.

I knew he was going to be socially conservative pandering, but was hoping he didn't go too far on immigration and other stuff. I guess Trump and whatever's going on with his dad's people has really got them shook. Probably will still toss him a primary vote if I remember and are out and about on primary day. If only to claim I'm actually just checking out the turnout and voting so nobody thinks I'm weird(er).

Or Sanders if he's still in.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 09, 2015, 09:15:50 AM
Banned from GAF, Banned from America.

I have no home.

Want to become a gay ocean pirate with me?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Joe Molotov on December 09, 2015, 10:18:41 AM
Banned from GAF, Banned from America.

I have no home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFAUq9cqC9k
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: ToxicAdam on December 09, 2015, 12:06:21 PM


Want to become a gay ocean pirate with me?

The lack of punctuation leads me to believe that there is a gay ocean somewhere.

All aboard, amirite?



Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 09, 2015, 12:08:17 PM
Just don't swallow the salt water
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 10, 2015, 12:51:36 AM
(http://www.motherjones.com/files/blog_ppp_north_carolina_islam_illegal.jpg)

 :beli
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: jakefromstatefarm on December 10, 2015, 01:01:00 AM
the not sures are just as :beli tbh
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: brawndolicious on December 10, 2015, 01:10:46 AM
I'm just hoping people in those surveys don't take their own opinion on American politics seriously. Herd mentality.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mandark on December 10, 2015, 02:02:17 AM
Disclaimers: it's PPP, which is a liberal-leaning pollster, so there's some incentive to bait conservative voters into crazy answers.  Also, questions like this (and the Obama birth stuff) get symbolic answers, where people are mostly just signalling approval or disapproval of some group or person.  There's no substantial, organized, active lobby trying to shut down mosques.

Still, though.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Steve Contra on December 10, 2015, 12:33:33 PM
I don't Mandark, have you been down to the South recently?  people will insert the craziest sounding shit into conversations like it's accepted knowledge.  I have no doubt those numbers are fairly accurate.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Great Rumbler on December 10, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
And in other "Old white people having 'scust views on race" news, this time from Supreme Court:

Quote
Nevertheless, Chief Justice John Roberts seemed to question why diversity in the classroom was important to a university.

"What unique perspective does a minority student bring to a physics class?" he asked Gregory Garre, the attorney representing the University of Texas.

Quote
Alito argued the system was based on “terrible stereotyping" because it suggested minorities coming through the top 10 program weren't good enough.

“It's kind of the assumption that if the—if a student—if a black student or a Hispanic student is admitted as part of the top 10-percent plan, it has to be because that student didn't have to compete against very many whites and— and Asians,” he said.

Quote
“Grutter said that we did not expect these sort of programs to be around in 25 years, and that was 12 years ago,” Roberts said, referring to the 2003 Supreme Court decision that upheld affirmative action. “Are we going to hit the deadline? Is this going to be done on—in your view in 12 years?

In response, Garre pointed to the systemic issues that the affirmative action policy sought to address, like the racial test score gap. But Roberts insisted that the program needed to be temporary and asked Garre: "When do you think your program will be done?”

Quote
Justice Antonin Scalia argued that affirmative action programs were hurting black students by sending them to schools that were too advanced for them.

He pointed to those who "contend it does not benefit African-Americans to—to get them into the University of Texas where they do not do well, as opposed to having them go to a less-advanced school, a less—a slower-track school where they do well."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/fisher-case-scotus-arguments

:beli
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Human Snorenado on December 10, 2015, 01:01:58 PM
I don't Mandark, have you been down to the South recently?  people will insert the craziest sounding shit into conversations like it's accepted knowledge.  I have no doubt those numbers are fairly accurate.

I live in the South and can confirm this
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 10, 2015, 01:08:16 PM
TBH the unique perspective argument russles my jimmies too when it comes to science and maths.  I think its pretty condescending too, like minorities need something unique to be able to compete instead of being just being able to compete in the same as a white dude as is. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Mupepe on December 10, 2015, 01:21:37 PM
TBH the unique perspective argument russles my jimmies too when it comes to science and maths.  I think its pretty condescending too like minorities need something unique to be able to compete instead of being just being able to compete in the same as a white dude.
Unique?  Like sports?
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Steve Contra on December 10, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
TBH the unique perspective argument russles my jimmies too when it comes to science and maths.  I think its pretty condescending too like minorities need something unique to be able to compete instead of being just being able to compete in the same as a white dude.
:picard
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Phoenix Dark on December 10, 2015, 02:13:44 PM
I don't Mandark, have you been down to the South recently?  people will insert the craziest sounding shit into conversations like it's accepted knowledge.  I have no doubt those numbers are fairly accurate.

I live in the the South and am a Baby Boomer and can confirm this

fixed
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: brawndolicious on December 10, 2015, 02:15:19 PM
I think not growing up with parents who are familiar with the college process is something that sets you back regardless of which field you're interested in. If you come from a lower socioeconomic background where not a lot of relatives went to college/speak English well then that's going to give you less resources as far as knowing what to expect in college. There's a reason why so many students drop out in their freshman year and of the struggling students I tutored, none of them were dumb or slow but instead seemed flustered by the way college works.

Pretty much everyone I knew in my teens though had college educated parents so I'm just making a reasonable assumption about how that shapes your views on what to expect.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Madrun Badrun on December 10, 2015, 02:29:59 PM
TBH the unique perspective argument russles my jimmies too when it comes to science and maths.  I think its pretty condescending too like minorities need something unique to be able to compete instead of being just being able to compete in the same as a white dude.
:picard

Don't know why I got picarded for this.  Its an argument used a lot to argue for more women in tech as well, like women are some how have better capacity to create user interfaces or some shit.  I'm all for more minorities in class rooms and more women in tech, I just don't like this line of argument for it. 
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Steve Contra on December 10, 2015, 03:18:46 PM
TBH the unique perspective argument russles my jimmies too when it comes to science and maths.  I think its pretty condescending too like minorities need something unique to be able to compete instead of being just being able to compete in the same as a white dude.
:picard

Don't know why I got picarded for this.  Its an argument used a lot to argue for more women in tech as well, like women are some how have better capacity to create user interfaces or some shit.  I'm all for more minorities in class rooms and more women in tech, I just don't like this line of argument for it.
Science isn't some pure pursuit with limitless resources.  There's all kinds of priorities, politics, budgets etc. that go into it, and when you just have white dudes in the field  :doge
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: octopushover on December 10, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
letting women into labs is how we found out that squirters were just peeing. thanks, unique perspectives.  :goty2
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Phoenix Dark on December 10, 2015, 05:14:52 PM
I don't think the alleged uniqueness that minorities can allegedly bring to a math class matters. The bigger, important issue is making sure the resources and options are in place for minorities (especially lower income minorities) to enter those classes and fields at higher rates than they are now. It shouldn't be stunning that whites, Indians, and Asians who attend better schools end up going further in hard sciences than blacks - or that boys might do better than girls in those classes given the differences in expectations/stereotypes/ways teachers handle them.

We might not be having this conversation if so many black kids weren't trapped in bad schools with stressed teachers who don't give a fuck after 3-5 years. This doesn't mean just dumping money into school districts every 4 to 8 years btw. There seems to be enough evidence that doesn't really work. Ultimately this is a pretty large socioeconomic issue about tax bases as well as how state spending is delegated. If you live in a state with a republican governor like Michigan you can simply look at the budget and see inner cities get fucked in terms of where state money goes with respect to school funding.

In short it's hard to compete when the playing field isn't even.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Shadow Mod on December 10, 2015, 05:21:08 PM
Other people from different socioeonomic and cultural backgrounds do bring different perspectives and modes of thinking but yes this shouldn't be the catalyst to actually give a fuck about other demographics and helping them succeed. It's quite patronizing really.
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Samson Manhug on December 11, 2015, 04:17:29 AM
Front page of the Toronto Star today:

(http://i.imgur.com/mJiVMSq.jpg)
Title: Re: Welcome to America: Ban all the Muslims
Post by: Brehvolution on December 11, 2015, 09:14:05 AM
How un-christian of them.