Has anyone read "The Closing of the American Mind"

[FlameOfCallandor]

I am spending my exciting friday evening reading through wikipedia. I started the night off reading about civilization and how human society has been changing. I then made my way to Western Canon and read about the classics. There was a link to this book called "The Closing of the American Mind."  I was reading the wikipedia entry and it seems very interesting.

I know you guys think I am dumb and racist and whatnot, but I think Allen Bloom's book is pretty much what I have been trying to say around here the whole time. I haven't read it yet but I am going to get it tomorrow.

Some interesting bits about the book.

"Bloom argues that "openness" and absolute understanding undermines critical thinking and eliminates the "point of view" that defines cultures."

I. Openness of indifference - humbling of intellectual pride; be whatever you want to be.
A. Stunts students' desire for self-discovery by making all endeavors of equal value.
B. Leads to the abandonment of their requirements to take languages and study philosophy of science.
C. Activates their amour-propre - self-love or esteem based on others' opinions (polls).
D. Teaches them a loose interpretation of documents such as the Constitution, a waffling philosophy based on "it all depends".
E. Closes them to doubt about so many things impeding progress. (page 42)

II. Openness to the quest for knowledge and certitude - history and cultures as examples.
A. Encourages students to want to know what things from history and culture are good for them, what will make them happy.
B. Activates their amour-soi - natural and healthy self-love or esteem arising from within oneself independent of the opinions of others.
C. Teaches them a close interpretation of the Constitution - "government of laws"
D. Teaches them that a true openness means a closed-ness to all the charms that make us comfortable with the present.(page 42)

There exist in the world polar opposites. Bloom lists "reason-revelation, freedom-necessity, democracy-aristocracy, good-evil, body-soul, self-other, city-man, eternity-time, being-nothing." Serious thought requires recognition of the existence of these opposites and the choice of one over the other. "A serious life means being fully aware of the alternatives, thinking about them with all the intensity one brings to bear on life-and-death questions, in full recognition that every choice is a great risk with necessary consequences that are hard to bear," Bloom says.

He argues persuasively that the modern university does not force students to confront these alternatives at all, much less seriously think about them. Therefore, the modern university fails in its purpose, which is to create students aware of the vast array of possibilities that life offers and capable of choosing the good life.

Has anyone read the book? Shit I feel like I need to read so much more. My next wikipedia entry is "Plato's Cave"

[Van Cruncheon]

no; why would i read the work of a discredited cultural conservative? much as The Bell Curve uses faux-scientific hand-waving to justify institutional racism, this book uses non-falsifiable faux-academic strawmen to attack cultural relativism. reactionary jingoism wrapped in the elevated language of academia is still reactionary jingoism.

[FlameOfCallandor]

English please.

[Van Cruncheon]

irony

[FlameOfCallandor]

Explain how he is a "discredited cultural conservative."

Most of what I am reading is rather positive and say that he was neither conservative or liberal in terms of politics.

[Van Cruncheon]

he's one of leo strauss' banner bearers. strauss is one of the folks who spent the latter half of their academic careers railing against the hippies and how they supposedly fucked up public education. i'd love to see PRAISE for alan bloom from somewhere that isn't a shitheel conservative think tank or backwater college. strauss fell out of favor in political philosophy discourse when he went batshit roundabout 1973 or so.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Wikipedia for one is pretty generious towards him. Alot of his statements are rahter poignant.

  The failure of contemporary liberal education leads to the social and sexual habits of modern students, and their inability to fashion a life for themselves beyond the mundane offerings touted as success. Commercial pursuits had become more highly valued than the philosophic quest for truth or the civilized pursuits of honour and glory.

The public reception of Closing of the American Mind suggested that even liberals were uneasy about the consequences of the moral relativism they claimed as their own. Thus Norman Podhoretz in his review noted that the close mindness in the title alludes to the paradoxical consequence of the academic "open mind" found in liberal political thought. Namely "the narrow and intolerant dogmatism" that dismisses any attempt, by Plato or the Hebrew Bible for example, to provide a rational basis for moral judgments. Podhoretz continued, "Bloom goes on to charge liberalism with vulgarizing the noble ideals of freedom and equality, and he offers brilliantly acerbic descriptions of the sexual revolution and the feminist movement, which he sees as products of this process of vulgarization."

[Van Cruncheon]

wikipedia is and has never been a credible source on anything academic, yokel. jesus. it's there as a starting point; it's not there to argue on your behalf.

oh jesus hell, the first quote is unsubstantiated emotional appeal grounded in ZERO science, and the second one quotes norman fucking podhoretz, one of the fathers of modern neo-conservatism! you're a total babe in the woods, pimple popper. spend a couple years reading and thinking and THEN come to the table.

[MrAngryFace]

If distinguished mentally-challenged fellows dont get to masturbate in public, you shouldn't get to express opinions, FoC.

[Van Cruncheon]

i can't imagine the selection of two LESS intellectually credible passages, for sure! i'm actually embarrassed for our little toenail chomping naiveline. :'(

[FlameOfCallandor]

wikipedia is and has never been a credible source on anything academic, yokel. jesus. it's there as a starting point; it's not there to argue on your behalf.

oh jesus hell, the first quote is unsubstantiated emotional appeal grounded in ZERO science, and the second one quotes norman fucking podhoretz, one of the fathers of modern neo-conservatism! you're a total babe in the woods, pimple popper. spend a couple years reading and thinking and THEN come to the table.

enlighten me

[Van Cruncheon]

READ the fucking passages -- where is the logic? the science? they're emotional appeals, rooted in strawmen and dogma. podhoretz suggests the fucking bible as a rational moral authority, for your savage god's sake!

[FlameOfCallandor]

Ok, I'll back up until I actually read the book. The main reason I came across his name was through the Western Canon entry.

"There has been an ongoing, intensely political debate over the nature and status of the canon since at least the 1960s. In the USA, in particular, it has been attacked as a compendium of books written mainly by "dead white European males", that thus do not represent the viewpoints of many others in contemporary societies around the world. Others, notably Allan Bloom in his 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind, have disagreed strongly."

For one, just because someone is dead white and European doesnt make their books any less influential or culturally valuable.

[MrAngryFace]

CHEW DEM TOENAILS

[FlameOfCallandor]

READ the fucking passages -- where is the logic? the science? they're emotional appeals, rooted in strawmen and dogma. podhoretz suggests the fucking bible as a rational moral authority, for your savage god's sake!

I came across this quote about his work. You would like.

" At one point he cites the Pythagorean theorem as an example of science. Bloom lumps Isaac Newton together with Locke and Descartes as a philosopher, as if he was not something very different, called a "scientist""

[Van Cruncheon]

the argument over the literary canon has existed before and after alan bloom, and he contributed very little to the debate except his predictably anti-hippie slant. it's a salvo in the "colonialist" versus "culturalist" war in mediocre collegiate english departments everywhere, and has very little to fucking do with your original argument: that The Closing of the American Mind is credible.

people are arguing evolution versus intelligent design as we speak; the fact that such a controversy exists doesn't make intelligent design any less specious or intellectually vapid. fuck off and read more, hillbilly!

[TVC15]

For one, just because someone is dead white and European doesnt make their books any less influential or culturally valuable.

The point is that the dead white European male viewpoint is (in the opinion of some) over-represented in the western canon.  Actually, it is probably more fair to say that other POVs are under-represented.

[FlameOfCallandor]

For one, just because someone is dead white and European doesnt make their books any less influential or culturally valuable.

The point is that the dead white European male viewpoint is (in the opinion of some) over-represented in the western canon.  Actually, it is probably more fair to say that other POVs are under-represented.

What other viewpoints should be included in western canon?

[Van Cruncheon]

american -- north, south, central, and native. pick up a map!

[TVC15]

american -- north, south, central, and native. pick up a map!

And women!

[Van Cruncheon]

" At one point he cites the Pythagorean theorem as an example of science. Bloom lumps Isaac Newton together with Locke and Descartes as a philosopher, as if he was not something very different, called a "scientist""

boy, you just love those bumper sticker text bites, don't you?

here's one YOU'D like, bumpkin: LET GO AND LET GOD

also WHAT WOULD JESUS DO

[Van Cruncheon]

american -- north, south, central, and native. pick up a map!

And women!

and living authors!

[FlameOfCallandor]

american -- north, south, central, and native. pick up a map!

What? Is this suposed to mean something? Yall get mad at me for my poor grammer but then reply with shit that isnt even a sentence.

[FlameOfCallandor]

" At one point he cites the Pythagorean theorem as an example of science. Bloom lumps Isaac Newton together with Locke and Descartes as a philosopher, as if he was not something very different, called a "scientist""

boy, you just love those bumper sticker text bites, don't you?

here's one YOU'D like, bumpkin: LET GO AND LET GOD

also WHAT WOULD JESUS DO

That quote was agreeing with you. I posted it because I thought you would ike it. 

[Van Cruncheon]

irony

[Van Cruncheon]

you wouldn't even know where to start when interpreting what i agree with, po'bucker. contradicting you doesn't mean i agree with the opposite of whatever you're spouting.

[TVC15]

People like this Allan Bloom bloke (who appears to be in the same camp as the unrelated Harold Bloom) think that the Western Canon froze in the early 20th century, and that nothing should generally be added to it again, ie, they were effectively saying that not much new would ever be written that was worthwhile, as conservative a viewpoint as they come. 

The concept of a Western Canon is mainly a dead one these days, at least as far as education goes. 

[FlameOfCallandor]

Is it impossible to put aside your personal feelings for a second and have a civil discussion.

Here I am clearly not as well educated on the subject as you, asking for insight. All you can do is berate me and take some elitist high road. I never did anything to you. What the hell.

[MrAngryFace]

Lol stupid Flame

[FlameOfCallandor]

People like this Allan Bloom bloke (who appears to be in the same camp as the unrelated Harold Bloom) think that the Western Canon froze in the early 20th century, and that nothing should generally be added to it again, ie, they were effectively saying that not much new would ever be written that was worthwhile, as conservative a viewpoint as they come. 

The Western Canon is mainly a dead concept these days, as far as education goes. 

Ok great some serious discussion.

I think that important works should be added throughout time, it's just that I can't imagine a book written in the past 20 years being compared to Dickens or Shakespeare. Is there some literature out there? I'm gonna head to the book store tomorrow and would like to pick some of it up.

[Van Cruncheon]

you started arguing without doing any homework, pimple popper. the wiki article got you all jonesed up to take issue with your attackers on this forum, and you figured that using the book as a buttress instead of your own education might let you weather our scorn a little longer and come out feeling self-satisfied for once. you failed!

also, i ain't gonna fuckin' write a review of a 400 or so page political argument i read less than two-thirds of ten fucking years ago just so someone who can't be bothered to seriously educate themselves on higher matters can feel like he scored a few points on a fucking small-time backwater internet forum. i'll make my point more efficiently -- as demonstrated -- fuck-you-very-much!

[FlameOfCallandor]

you started arguing without doing any homework, pimple popper. the wiki article got you all jonesed up to take issue with your attackers on this forum, and you figured that using the book as a buttress instead of your own education might let you weather our scorn a little longer and come out feeling self-satisfied for once. you failed!

also, i ain't gonna fuckin' write a review of a 400 or so page political argument i read less than two-thirds of ten fucking years ago just so someone who can't be bothered to seriously educate themselves on higher matters can feel like he scored a few points on a fucking small-time backwater internet forum. i'll make my point more efficiently -- as demonstrated -- fuck-you-very-much!

You are a very angry person.  :'(

[TVC15]

Yes.  There are great writers out there today, as good as ever.

Post-war greats include Vonnegut, Don Delillo, Cormac McCarthy (Harold Bloom picked Blood Meridian as the best book of the 20th century), Bret Easton Ellis, Pynchon. . .lots more that I really don't care to list because I want to drink.  As far as philosophy goes, there are enough interesting modernists and post-structuralists to pick from, Baudrillard, Foucault, Derrida, Lacan.  Poetry. . .well, I don't follow poetry that much, but I think Seamus Heany would make the list. . .check out his Beowulf translation.

[Van Cruncheon]

it's just that I can't imagine a book written in the past 20 years being compared to Dickens or Shakespeare. Is there some literature out there? I'm gonna head to the book store tomorrow and would like to pick some of it up.

it's official; you never went to college.

as for your question, look at some of tvc and ichirou's book lists in the various reading threads. check out gabriel garcia marquez, cormac mccarthy, philip roth, john updike, umberto eco.

[MrAngryFace]

Im thinking he should start with Curious George. The Man in the Yellow Hat could teach him a thing or two.

[Van Cruncheon]

that george is a VERY naughty monkey!

[TVC15]

Since I missed this thread I'll jump in late.  FoC do you realize that the literary canon as we know it (or at least as it was known pre 1970s) was buttressed by the arguments of a group of literary modernists in an act that reeked of a proto-fascism?  Or did you miss that part of school?

To be fair, it's not like the history of this stuff is taught in schools on a mandatory basis.  I'd be shocked if most people had access to proper information on the old debate at all.  Everything that's been written about it has been so slanted that it is difficult to find what appears to be a straight account.  Anyone interested enough in writing on the subject has an opinion on it.