Dyack Vs. Rein FIGHT

[TVC15]

Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.

considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....

ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?

Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."

ok, fine.

now how about come up with a game of the same "genre." resident evil, perhaps. yeah...

Metroid Prime came out that same year, and despite one being a FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE, I think they share pretty much the same strengths, and weaknesses, and they are similarly overrated.

[Van Cruncheon]

vagrant story!

[Eduardo24]

I know you people are just reading DD´s self-bloating.

Read the thing starting in page 25.  I haven´t read the entire document, but it seems Epic fucked up.  DD´s claims of "sabotage" are stupid, but I can understand why he is so pissed off.

[TVC15]

I know you people are just reading DD´s self-bloating.

Read the thing starting in page 25.  I haven´t read the entire document, but it seems Epic fucked up.  DD´s claims of "sabotage" are stupid, but I can understand why he is so pissed off.

There's nothing particularly damning in pages of 25 to 40, which is where I stopped reading.  These are the common complaints that everyone knows about it.

Denis just doesn't know shit about working with middleware, and it bit him in the ass.

[louegi]

Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.

considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....

ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?

Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."

ok, fine.

now how about come up with a game of the same "genre." resident evil, perhaps. yeah...

Metroid Prime came out that same year, and despite one being a FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE, I think they share pretty much the same strengths, and weaknesses, and they are similarly overrated.

first of all, MP was not really cinematic, not in the sense of storytelling/cutscenes. the graphics were impressive and the gameplay -- at times -- was pretty impressive. i thought all the backtracking and enemy respawning was tiresome though.

metroid prime is indeed overrated, but ED? not really, as seen by all the hate in this and other threads.

the strength of ED was found in its story and cinematics, coupled with all the innovative gameplay ideas (e.g., insanity effects, unique enemy targeting system, flawless camera, etc.).

metroid only had one half of what ED had to offer, in whole. the story for metroid just wasnt there. it was the missing cinematic link.

[louegi]

Silent Hill 2 came out before ED and had better graphics, story, presentation, and FEAR FACTOR

WHY AM I ARGUING WITH YOU

Yeah, but how was Silent Hill's camera and combat/gameplay?  GTA has better combat. 

Exactly.

ED married all of that and more.

[brawndolicious]

yeah, I don't know what to think about SK (not a huge fan but I don't think they're horrible) but it honestly doesn't look like it's hard to convince a judge that Epic has not done everything they agreed to and that SK could be given back their money.  The GoW profits thing will be thrown out as BS.

[trippingmartian]

Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.

considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....

ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?

Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."

Battlefield 1942 looks bad compared to ED. Even BF2 has terrible graphics by comparison. It was just a run-of-the-mill multi-player FPS. ED on the other hand,  introduced fresh gameplay mechanics, had an interesting narrative  and spared no attention to detail. It also did an admirable job of telling story from multiple perspectives in a way that hasn't been achieved since the days of Maniac Mansion/Day of the Tentacle.

And yes, Silent Hill is definitely in the same league as ED. SH had the edge in graphic design, but ED had far better voice acting and script.

As far as this court case goes, it sounds like they may have a case, but these technology cases can go either way. There are certainly are a lot of armchair experts on the subject. I'd be interested to know what credentials they have. Probably nothing more than a hard-on for Mark or Denis. Personally I think they've both been knobs in the past. I'm all for whichever outcome brings Too Human to store shelves the earliest.

[demi]

Rein unleashes a counter-attack

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=17095

Rein, however, insists that Epic has "done nothing wrong." He added, "We continue to be committed to fully defending against Silicon Knights' unfounded allegations."

Epic has filed a counterclaim in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina, which states that SK "decided to misappropriate Epic's licensed technology" and that their lawsuit "lacks factual or legal merit."

"Indeed, the plain language of the Silicon Knights' Complaint makes clear that Silicon Knights wants to take Epic's Licensed Technology, pay nothing for it, and use it any way it pleases," Epic said.

[Phoenix Dark]

After reading more of it, don´t you guys think SK actually has a case?

I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.

Not at all.  Unless they draw a judge that has no knowledge of the software industry, or if Epic has a poorly written licensing agreement (and since licensing has been one of Epic's main games for years, I bet they have a very tightly written one).

How can you say they have "no" case though? Too Human isn't the only UE3.0 game that's run into big delays, problems, and cancellations. Isn't GoW the only full UE3.0 game that's been released so far?

I don't know if Dyack is finished after this, but I'd imagine that Too Human won't be released this generation, at least not on the Xbox 360. Epic holds enough sway over MS to influence that kind of decision; there's already some tension between the two companies, and I doubt MS would even consider sitting back and allowing GoW2 to go multiplatinum.

[bud]

Epic Games' VP Mark Rein today sent select members of the media, including GameDaily BIZ, and update on the company's legal battle with developer Silicon Knights. Silicon Knights' President Denis Dyack believes that Epic kept a usable version of the Unreal Engine to itself for Gears of War development and provided Silicon Knights (SK) with the kit far too late. SK alleges that Epic harmed development of Too Human, as well as other Epic licensees.

Rein, however, insists that Epic has "done nothing wrong." He added, "We continue to be committed to fully defending against Silicon Knights' unfounded allegations."


Epic has filed a counterclaim in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina, which states that SK "decided to misappropriate Epic's licensed technology" and that their lawsuit "lacks factual or legal merit."


"Indeed, the plain language of the Silicon Knights' Complaint makes clear that Silicon Knights wants to take Epic's Licensed Technology, pay nothing for it, and use it any way it pleases," Epic said.


In the counterclaim, Epic outlined that it's "setting forth claims for copyright infringement, breach of contract, misappropriation of trade secrets, and for the imposition of a constructive trust, results from Silicon Knights' wrongful conduct, which is continuing... Epic seeks injunctive relief, compensatory and punitive damages, the destruction of infringing goods, including infringing computer code, and attorney's fees and costs."


[UPDATE] We're still combing through several super long legal documents that were provided to us. Some other important points in the counterclaim include the fact that Silicon Knights actually received a "substantial discount" on Unreal Engine 3 because it promised to use the engine on all of its upcoming 360, PS3 and PC titles. Also, Epic says that SK knew when it signed on that Epic was still working on certain features of Unreal Engine 3 and that features would continue to be developed and added as Epic completed Gears of War. As such, Epic claims that "SK knew when it committed to the licensing agreement that Unreal Engine 3 may not meet its requirements and may not be modified to meet them."


Furthermore, Epic said that SK admitted to developing a competing engine, "Silicon Knights Engine," as early as May 2006, and that this engine incorporates Epic's Licensed Technology, including code from Unreal Engine 3. Therefore, Epic is claiming that SK has "made unauthorized use of Epic's Licensed Technology and has infringed and otherwise violated Epic's intellectual property rights, including Epic's copyrighted works, trade secrets, know how and 'Confidential Information' as defined in the License Agreement."

[TVC15]

After reading more of it, don´t you guys think SK actually has a case?

I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.

Not at all.  Unless they draw a judge that has no knowledge of the software industry, or if Epic has a poorly written licensing agreement (and since licensing has been one of Epic's main games for years, I bet they have a very tightly written one).

How can you say they have "no" case though? Too Human isn't the only UE3.0 game that's run into big delays, problems, and cancellations. Isn't GoW the only full UE3.0 game that's been released so far?

If they draw a judge that knows anything about the software industry, they have no case.  Just about everything I remember of Dyack's original document is par for the course for the software industry.  Shit gets delayed, but people don't sue over it.  It's the nature of the biz.

I don't know if Dyack is finished after this, but I'd imagine that Too Human won't be released this generation, at least not on the Xbox 360. Epic holds enough sway over MS to influence that kind of decision; there's already some tension between the two companies, and I doubt MS would even consider sitting back and allowing GoW2 to go multiplatinum.

I don't think TH will be released on any predictable schedule now.  They'll run out of money soon, and MS has been known to put lagging developers like Doublefine to the curb before, even when close to releasing a product.

[bud]

the games are pretty expensive. i think it was $80mln for the entire trilogy lol.

[Phoenix Dark]

It doesn't seem like he's upset solely about the delays. He's saying Epic knowingly deceived them, giving them faulty software after taking their money. A court will decide what's what of course, but right now it seems to me like he's not pulling tapeworms out his ass here. But you and Drinky definitely know more about software than I do.

Good point on Doublefine. Dyack's interesting comments about working with Nintendo came after this lawsuit. I think it's very likely that MS won't be publishing any SK game's soon. Dyack made a huge fuss about Nintendo's current direction, and his urge to work with actual next gen tech. Now that he's proven he can't even do that, will he attempt to fall back to the Wii? If so I doubt Nintendo will provide much support.

And where is Sega in all of this? SK is developing a game for them.

[TVC15]

It doesn't seem like he's upset solely about the delays. He's saying Epic knowingly deceived them, giving them faulty software after taking their money. A court will decide what's what of course, but right now it seems to me like he's not pulling tapeworms out his ass here. But you and Drinky definitely know more about software than I do.

Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous.  Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game?  That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.

And where is Sega in all of this? SK is developing a game for them.

Heh. <zips lip>

[Phoenix Dark]

Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous.  Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game?  That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.

They probably weren't worried about the game, but perhaps they simply didn't follow through on their obligations with their partners. Like I said, TH isn't the only game using this engine that's run into heavy problems. If this goes to court expect people from Namco to be called by the defense to discuss Frame City Killer, as well as other developers.

Heh. <zips lip>

OMG TELL ME. Well strike that: is the game still in existence, and if so is the development going ok? You don't have to name the game/break NDAs you probably haven't signed anyway

[TVC15]

Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous.  Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game?  That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.

They probably weren't worried about the game, but perhaps they simply didn't follow through on their obligations with their partners. Like I said, TH isn't the only game using this engine that's run into heavy problems.

We can't know what was in the writing SK and Epic signed, but we *do* know that in the lawsuit, SK did make ridiculous claims about Epic trying to SABOTAGE their game.  Only one side here (so far) is making patently ridiculous statements in legal documents.

If this goes to court expect people from Namco to be called by the defense to discuss Frame City Killer, as well as other developers.

It's a lawsuit.  Third parties don't really get called to the stand unless they want to be.

[Phoenix Dark]

I want to know more about this Sega issue!

[y2kev]

holy crap, me too, PD. White Man, tell us about how much shit Phantasy Star V is in.

[Phoenix Dark]

I think we have to offer our virgin asses to him before getting the info. IS IT A GROUP QUEST?