Author Topic: I'd like to punch these Iraqi politicians in the face.....individually.....  (Read 4869 times)

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Tigerriot

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070801/ts_nm/iraq_dc


After 4 years of American troops giving their lives to try and turn this country around, these fucking Iraqi politicians are still fucking around and playing games with one another.  I seriously would like to know how fucking stupid they must be. 

Regardless of any of your opinions on the Iraq war, the fact is the Iraqi politicians are being given a chance to turn this country into something respectable, and they're fucking too stupid to realize it.  Many people believe that once these politicians settle the political disputes, and divide the oil revenues, that the majority of the country will be on the same page to get this country back in one piece.  Unfortunately these politicans are too busy fucking around, and taking month long vacations.  Yes, they just took a 5 week break from any activities!


Fuck all of them, and I hope to God they all realize that if they don't settle this shit soon, we're gonna leave their asses behind, and then they're gonna think their problems now look like fucking child's play compared to what's possible if we leave.

Prost

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lol what do we care, we get oil.  let them fight :)  let's pay for their vacation ;)
:-þ

Tigerriot

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lol what do we care, we get oil.  let them fight :)  let's pay for their vacation ;)

Iraq distributes their oil around the world.  It is not all being sent directly to America. 


I hope you reailze that if we leave Iraq and it turns into a complete nightmare of civil war and choas, you could see them stop exporting any oil for a while, and that would have major implications for the price of gas worldwide.  We will all be directly affected by this in the long run.  But you'd think the Iraqi politicians would have the biggest reasons to settle their disputes and move forward.  Instead these dumbfucks spend their days debating shit, and doing almost nothing about any of it.  We've been there for over 4 fucking years, and they're still arguing about how gets how much money.  Fucking pathetic.

MrAngryFace

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They've been doing this shit for hundreds if not thousands of years, I dunno why we thought they'd stop for us. It all comes down to us never going over there in the first place, but now that we ARE there, accountability becomes key. Its too bad accountability means more American's lives, but its not like anyone aside from bush and his supporters get any say in that.

That region will never be peaceful, ever.
o_0

AdmiralViscen

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I wish those dumb fucks wouldn't have overthrown Saddam. Now they have the nerve to do this?

Tigerriot

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I wish those dumb fucks wouldn't have overthrown Saddam. Now they have the nerve to do this?

What?  I don't think your witty reply made much sense.


Listen folks.  I already said it in the first post, I'm not asking anyone to debate the merits of the Iraq war.  The fact is, it happened!  It's already done, and now the Iraqi's have a chance to make something of it.  So I'm simply asking everyone to take a look at the Iraqi politicians and ask yourself "are they doing all they could to get things going in the right direction"?  The answer is clearly no, and I find that fucking pathetic.

They're simply being asked to come to an agreement on oil revenue sharing, and these stupid fucks can't get it done.  It's not like we're asking them to build a spaceship to take us to mars.  They've simply got to sit down and work this shit out, and yet they take a fucking 5 week vacation in the middle of all this turmoil.  Un-fucking-believable.

What's even more is these idiots see their felllow citizens dying by the day, as well as foreign troops who are only trying to do a job.  Yet they simply can't get it done.  I've never seen such a lack of sense in my life.  You'd think at some point that one side would just give in, and get a deal done, but no, they just keep on arguing about it. 

FlameOfCallandor

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This is the biggest problem with the whole damn war. To gain independence and democracy the people have to want it, you cant force it on them.

FlameOfCallandor

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That region will never be peaceful, ever.

How come when I say this, it's racist?

Tigerriot

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This is the biggest problem with the whole damn war. To gain independence and democracy the people have to want it, you cant force it on them.


I guess I would just assume at some point common sense would kick in for these politicians.  If I were in their shoes, and saw my country crumbling around me, I think I'd be pretty interested in making a deal with the other side, and move on with life. 

Howard Alan Treesong

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good thing this mess isn't America's fault! stupid Iraqi politicians.
乱学者

Tigerriot

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good thing this mess isn't America's fault! stupid Iraqi politicians.

No matter how many fucking times I say "this isn't a debate about the Iraq war", people will still make completely irrelevant comments like that.  ::)


Yes, the entire war starting was completely America's fault.  That does not excuse why these Iraq politicians cannot agree of anything after 3 years of talking about shit.  Try and seperate your thinking for a just a second.

Van Cruncheon

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That region will never be peaceful, ever.

How come when I say this, it's racist?

because you don't say it. maf isn't saying the problem is islam, or middle-eastern culture, or the general nature of the people in that region; he's simply making an observation, not drawing an erroneous and ill-informed conclusion. the region WILL never be peaceful, but not for the reasons you seem to favor, racist.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 12:51:48 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

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Religion has a lot to do with the turmoil there, but it's not just Islam. That religious dispute will never be settled by men.

Force feeding them democracy hasn't worked either, and I doubt it ever will in Iraq. At least not Iraq in its present construction; Biden's ideas about a three nation state are interesting to me, and I'd love to hear what you guy's think about it. It's just like with the furor over the cartoon of Mohammed: while we can sit around and give the "lol A-rabs n 'ligion hur hur hur" treatment, it's more interesting to think this through. Most of the people in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other repressive Middle Eastern nations have absolutely no understanding of what we consider "free speech". Likewise, the idea of democracy is equally foreign and dangerous to many of them; many middle eastern societies are very oppressive of females, so the idea of women having equal voting rights/worth is a no no. And that's just one example

Overall it's a complicated mess. On one hand we can't totally ignore the region because it effects us, yet on the other hand we can't meddle in their business to extreme degrees (you know, like invading their country for no reason).
010

Van Cruncheon

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good thing this mess isn't America's fault! stupid Iraqi politicians.

No matter how many fucking times I say "this isn't a debate about the Iraq war", people will still make completely irrelevant comments like that.  ::)


Yes, the entire war starting was completely America's fault.  That does not excuse why these Iraq politicians cannot agree of anything after 3 years of talking about shit.  Try and seperate your thinking for a just a second.

you can't separate the two, and it's unfair to point to the "Iraqi politicians" in a vaccuum. i could take your forum posts independent of your real world situation and say "look! what an ill-informed distinguished mentally-challenged fellow! why doesn't he try to think for a change!" -- would that be fair to you? we fucked up their country and created this situation; just because you, in your safe little white-bread world perched archly behind a computer screen in a sanitized little suburban neighborhood, announce you might have behaved with more decorum in the same situation doesn't really suggest a meaningful point even worth discussing. hurr, tigerriot thinks that people in a bad situation do bad things! hurr, all muslims are petty, venal and evil! hurr! the broader and more useful conversation that we can have -- why such a situation even exists -- implicitly indicts america's gross failure in the region.
duc

Van Cruncheon

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religion isn't the problem. the problem is widespread poverty due to a lack of diverse resources, and totalitarian oligarchic control of the few resources that do exist. poverty breeds angry people with seriously short-term thinking, which breeds killing, which in turns breeds a fanatical, polarized spin on the local culture and religion. you wanna make 'em behave? start getting the locals some food and some of that serious oil money. when they start to develop something to lose -- when they start to have a personal monetary stake in the development of their communities and country -- then maybe they'll start to say "hey, this shit ain't worth dyin' over" and turn the dial back on the fanaticism.

also, fuck the american religion of democracy.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 01:08:20 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

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poverty breeds angry people with seriously short-term thinking, which breeds killing, which in turns breeds a fanatical, polarized spin on the local culture and religion.

I can't argue with that. Impressive :bow
010

Van Cruncheon

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you can see it in america, duder. very few rich pentecostals, for sure!
duc

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you can see it in america, duder. very few rich baptists, for sure!

fixed. the ones i know can't pay their water bills
010

FlameOfCallandor

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[
because you don't say it. maf isn't saying the problem is islam, or middle-eastern culture, or the general nature of the people in that region; he's simply making an observation, not drawing an erroneous and ill-informed conclusion. the region WILL never be peaceful, but not for the reasons you seem to favor, racist.

I said the whole region was a shit hole and everyone was like. "OMG!!! I cant BelieVE he said that!!!!"

Van Cruncheon

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don't be a revisionist, foc. nobody complained until you started riffing on islam.
duc

Tigerriot

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good thing this mess isn't America's fault! stupid Iraqi politicians.

No matter how many fucking times I say "this isn't a debate about the Iraq war", people will still make completely irrelevant comments like that.  ::)


Yes, the entire war starting was completely America's fault.  That does not excuse why these Iraq politicians cannot agree of anything after 3 years of talking about shit.  Try and seperate your thinking for a just a second.



you can't separate the two, and it's unfair to point to the "Iraqi politicians" in a vaccuum. i could take your forum posts independent of your real world situation and say "look! what an ill-informed distinguished mentally-challenged fellow! why doesn't he try to think for a change!" -- would that be fair to you? we fucked up their country and created this situation; just because you, in your safe little white-bread world perched archly behind a computer screen in a sanitized little suburban neighborhood, announce you might have behaved with more decorum in the same situation doesn't really suggest a meaningful point even worth discussing. hurr, tigerriot thinks that people in a bad situation do bad things! hurr, all muslims are petty, venal and evil! hurr! the broader and more useful conversation that we can have -- why such a situation even exists -- implicitly indicts america's gross failure in the region.


Wow, you just made so many leaps and assumptions in that reply, I'm nearly speechless.  


I never said a fucking thing about muslims jackass.  You can stop with your racism bullshit talk.  This isn't about race, or me thinking any group of people are more capable of doing bad things than other groups.  I think this war was a fucking mess from the start, but that still shouldn't excuse people who were elected by their own people, from coming to a simple agreement about how oil revenues get split up.  It's not like they haven't had enough time.  How long do you think it should take Einstein?  

Also, how do you explain a 5 week fucking vacation in the middle of all this?

I completely agree that we have created this awful enviornment in which to try and make things normal again, but the fact is real men have always persevered under very difficult circumstances throughout history, and real men should do the right thing and make compromises where needed.  These idiots have been talking for years now, and they simply refuse to compromise on this shit.  Meanwhile their OWN COUNTRY is falling apart, and they still refuse to compromise.  You can only blame the U.S for so long before you HAVE to turn your attention to the people who refuse to come to an agreement.  

Unfortuantely for many people they're just too caught up in this whole "George Bush is so dumb, OMG, I can't believe it" talk, that they're blind to everything else that is going on over there.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 01:34:15 PM by Tigerriot »

FlameOfCallandor

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don't be a revisionist, foc. nobody complained until you started riffing on islam.

If I could search for threads I would post it. It was the last big thread we had. I said the whole region is a shit hole and all you fegs starting got your panties in a budle. Im not revising my opinion of Islam. I still think its a shitty religion.

TVC15

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don't be a revisionist, foc. nobody complained until you started riffing on islam.

If I could search for threads I would post it. It was the last big thread we had. I said the whole region is a shit hole and all you fegs starting got your panties in a budle. Im not revising my opinion of Islam. I still think its a shitty religion.

I think you're a shitty religion.
serge

Van Cruncheon

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"a simple agreement about how oil revenues are split up"

:lol :lol :lol

dude, i never mentioned bush. i don't even think about bush these days; complaining about him serves no purpose. as for "real men" -- again, way to go with the whole moral clarity out of ignorance thing, Captain Suburbia! omg tigerriot woulda done the right thing in iraq is probably the most useless observation one could make with regards to this entire snafu.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 01:42:51 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

AdmiralViscen

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I wish those dumb fucks wouldn't have overthrown Saddam. Now they have the nerve to do this?

What?  I don't think your witty reply made much sense.


Listen folks.  I already said it in the first post, I'm not asking anyone to debate the merits of the Iraq war.  The fact is, it happened!  It's already done, and now the Iraqi's have a chance to make something of it.  So I'm simply asking everyone to take a look at the Iraqi politicians and ask yourself "are they doing all they could to get things going in the right direction"?  The answer is clearly no, and I find that fucking pathetic.

They're simply being asked to come to an agreement on oil revenue sharing, and these stupid fucks can't get it done.  It's not like we're asking them to build a spaceship to take us to mars.  They've simply got to sit down and work this shit out, and yet they take a fucking 5 week vacation in the middle of all this turmoil.  Un-fucking-believable.

What's even more is these idiots see their felllow citizens dying by the day, as well as foreign troops who are only trying to do a job.  Yet they simply can't get it done.  I've never seen such a lack of sense in my life.  You'd think at some point that one side would just give in, and get a deal done, but no, they just keep on arguing about it. 

The point you're missing is that your whining is like me setting your house on fire and criticizing your ability to put it out. With the assumption that you've never used a hose or bucket before, no less.

It's not like our government is the pinnacle of efficiency and focus in the first place, so what are we really saying here?

TVC15

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"a simple agreement about how oil revenues are split up"

:lol :lol :lol

dude, i never mentioned bush. i don't even think about bush these days; complaining about him serves no purpose. as for "real men" -- again, way to go with the whole moral clarity out of ignorance thing, Captain Suburbia!

You just don't understand, Drinky.  The War in Iraq II is like a Saw movie.  The US is Jigsaw, and we put Iraq in our Trap so they can prove whether they deserve life or freedom, even though they didn't ask to be put in such a position.
serge

Van Cruncheon

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IRAQ IS SO FRUSTRATING. MAYBE IF THEY HAD JESUS.
duc

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FlameOfCallandor: July 3rd, 2007:

Quote from: FoC
Those people are terrorists too, but its hardly the same thing as blowing up shit in the Europe or America. Like I said before I really dont care what happens in the middle east. The place is a giant shithole.

If you can't see how that comment is vastly different from Prole's...wow. I prefer to refrain from insulting people over the internet now, but dude wtf
010

FlameOfCallandor

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Maf says "That region will never be peaceful, ever."
I say "The place is a shithole"

If its non stop war over there how can it not be a shithole. Seems like very similar comments, where one is worded a little nicer. 

Tigerriot

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"a simple agreement about how oil revenues are split up"

:lol :lol :lol

dude, i never mentioned bush. i don't even think about bush these days; complaining about him serves no purpose. as for "real men" -- again, way to go with the whole "moral clarity out of ignorance" thing, Captain Suburbia! omg tigerriot woulda done the right thing in iraq is probably the most useless observation one could make with regards to this entire snafu.


Yeah, way to focus on a word or two in an entire paragraph pointing out the ridiculous leaps you made in your earlier reply.  You did bring up muslims which I never brought up in this entire thread.  So how do you respond to that stupid comment?  


Yes, I fully realize I'm captain suburbia, but this is still not about me.  This is about people coming to an agreement.  I'm not claiming the Iraqi politicians need to make Iraq a peaceful place again.  I'm saying they simply need to work out an agreement for how the revenues will get split up around the country.  A lot of people think much of the strife around the country will ease once these agreements are in place, and money starts being distributed on a regular basis.  

Why don't you just once tell me how much time you think would be normal for this situation?  You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that these Iraqi politicians were ELECTED BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE to come to these types of agreements.  How about you comment on them taking a 5 week break in the midst of all this?  

Stop trying to turn this thead into a debate about me, and how white I am.  Your diversionary tactics are as clear as a glass of water right now.  It's not like I'm the first person on earth to stand up and ask "WTF is taking these people so long?".  Even people who are involved in the situation have expressed the same feeling I am.  

FlameOfCallandor

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I say fuck them, Iraq is non of our busniess. If they want to live in a shitty country let them. Bring the troops home and spend the money on things that actually help america. 

Cyanista

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religion isn't the problem. the problem is widespread poverty due to a lack of diverse resources, and totalitarian oligarchic control of the few resources that do exist. poverty breeds angry people with seriously short-term thinking, which breeds killing, which in turns breeds a fanatical, polarized spin on the local culture and religion. you wanna make 'em behave? start getting the locals some food and some of that serious oil money. when they start to develop something to lose -- when they start to have a personal monetary stake in the development of their communities and country -- then maybe they'll start to say "hey, this shit ain't worth dyin' over" and turn the dial back on the fanaticism.



:clap

except

Quote
also, fuck the american religion of democracy.
What in the hell does america know about democracy? 
omg

Phoenix Dark

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Maf says "That region will never be peaceful, ever."
I say "The place is a shithole"

If its non stop war over there how can it not be a shithole. Seems like very similar comments, where one is worded a little nicer. 

You really don't get it. I'm done

Anyone want to talk about The Shield?
010

FlameOfCallandor

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I do agree that religion isn't the reason the whole place is a third world country to most of the citizens. It's the fucking giant gapping whole that is the wealth distribution. The place should be filthy rich, but a handful control all of the wealth.

FlameOfCallandor

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You really don't get it. I'm done

Anyone want to talk about The Shield?

Get what?? What are you talking about?

Tigerriot

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I say fuck them, Iraq is non of our busniess. If they want to live in a shitty country let them. Bring the troops home and spend the money on things that actually help america. 

Well, and thats what I'm really saying here.  The clock is ticking on these Iraqi politicians, and yet they seem oblivious to it all.  As if they're not even looking at reality.  The U.S military is not going to stay there forever, and yet they take a 5 week fucking vacation in the middle of debating this oil revenue sharing.  Meanwhile their countrymen continue to die, as do American soldiers.  And people like Drinky want to debate who hates muslims, and who says they even know how to agree on things?


Reading some of the responses in this thread, I thought of this analogy.

The way some of you have responded to me in this thread, it's like you wake up at night and the house is on fire.  Some of you want to debate with me who started this house fire, and who didn't turn off the stove before bed.  I'm saying "Hey, let's just get these people out of the house", and you're saying "No, but we didn't want this fire in the first place, so who's going to put it out?".  Then I'm like "Who the fuck cares about the fire, let's get the fuck out of this house!".


FlameOfCallandor

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Not a very good analogy because there would be people arguing about who owns the house and what the house even means.

Van Cruncheon

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1. it's about large sums of money. nothing is ever simple about the distribution of large sums of money. never you mind that the us has a massively self-interested stake in these revenues, and are backing certain horses moreso than others.
2. it's a heavily polarized region, exacerbated well past the boiling point by the us intervention. it's not about being "big"; the politicians' constituents still demand revenge and retribution, and they want to see the other parties screwed and tattooed. in fact, right now, in the current climate, retribution is probably more important to them than stability.
3. observing that the character of a politician is petty and self-interested is like observing that a pig will shit in its own bed.

this is reality. we are dealing with a real situation, where ideals rarely manifest. idealism is the fantasy world of milkfat white guys with posh it jobs, and republican bureaucrats with very little understanding of middle-eastern culture but a mad desire to stay on message.

observations like "why can't they just get along" are pointless. the iraqi politico set will NOT get along. they will delay and backstab and attempt to fuck each other over, and the united states will continue to add its own smarmy shit to the pigpen. the real question is: knowing this, why do erstwhile commentators continue to talk in ideals instead of broaching the fucking reality?
duc

hyp

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you call those guys politicians?   :lol
pyh

FlameOfCallandor

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the real question is: knowing this, why do erstwhile commentators continue to talk in ideals instead of broaching the fucking reality?

Which would be...

Tigerriot

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1. it's about large sums of money. nothing is ever simple about the distribution of large sums of money. never you mind that the us has a massively self-interested stake in these revenues, and are backing certain horses moreso than others.
2. it's a heavily polarized region, exacerbated well past the boiling point by the us intervention. it's not about being "big"; the politicians' constituents still demand revenge and retribution, and they want to see the other parties screwed and tattooed. in fact, right now, in the current climate, retribution is probably more important to them than stability.
3. observing that the character of a politician is petty and self-interested is like observing that a pig will shit in its own bed.

this is reality. we are dealing with a real situation, where ideals rarely manifest. idealism is the fantasy world of milkfat white guys with posh it jobs, and republican bureaucrats with very little understanding of middle-eastern culture but a mad desire to stay on message.

observations like "why can't they just get along" are pointless. the iraqi politico set will NOT get along. they will delay and backstab and attempt to fuck each other over, and the united states will continue to add its own smarmy shit to the pigpen. the real question is: knowing this, why do erstwhile commentators continue to talk in ideals instead of broaching the fucking reality?


If what you said is true, and they're not interested in making a deal on the oil revenue.  Then we should just get the fuck out immediately.  If these people don't understand that now is the time to put shit aside, and get on with it, then fuck em.  

Please take my comments in the context of a U.S soldier who is giving up their life to help these people.  This isn't about George Bush, or anything he does.  I simply started this thread with the mindset of what I would feel like if I were a soldier sitting over there right now.  I read that article I gave a link for, and I felt disgusted thinking about the soldiers over there who are watching these morons debate this shit for years on end.  At this point I'd be fed up and ready to walk out on them.  

Van Cruncheon

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The way some of you have responded to me in this thread, it's like you wake up at night and the house is on fire.  Some of you want to debate with me who started this house fire, and who didn't turn off the stove before bed.  I'm saying "Hey, let's just get these people out of the house", and you're saying "No, but we didn't want this fire in the first place, so who's going to put it out?".  Then I'm like "Who the fuck cares about the fire, let's get the fuck out of this house!".



a. it's not my house. it's an apartment complex half a city over.
b. however, my rich elitist fucking neighbor is an arsonist who was spotted on the shitty side of the tracks with a bucket of naphtha and a cigarette lighter, and he left his brothers there to "help with cleanup." he claims the complex was owned by a crazy pedophile, and this was the best thing for all the tenants.
c. my other neighbor, a republican tool, suggests that i should be morally outraged on a messageboard when the members of the new tenancy board all make individual grabs for the tv sets in the building.
duc

Cyanista

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Tigerriot is like 14, isn't he?  :-\
omg

Tigerriot

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The way some of you have responded to me in this thread, it's like you wake up at night and the house is on fire.  Some of you want to debate with me who started this house fire, and who didn't turn off the stove before bed.  I'm saying "Hey, let's just get these people out of the house", and you're saying "No, but we didn't want this fire in the first place, so who's going to put it out?".  Then I'm like "Who the fuck cares about the fire, let's get the fuck out of this house!".



a. it's not my house. it's an apartment complex half a city over.
b. however, my rich elitist fucking neighbor is an arsonist who was spotted on the shitty side of the tracks with a bucket of naphtha and a cigarette lighter, and he left his brothers there to "help with cleanup." he claims the complex was owned by a crazy pedophile, and this was the best thing for all the tenants.
c. my other neighbor, a republican tool, suggests that i should be morally outraged on a messageboard when the members of the new tenancy board all make individual grabs for the tv sets in the building.


Boy, you're really big into the unsubstantiated claims.  Very nice.


Quote from: Cyanista
Tigerriot is like 14, isn't he? 

It's great when people who have made NO substantial contribution to a thread, decide to jump in and take a cheap potshot at one of the main participants of a thread.  Very mature, very mature.

Saint Cornelius

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Ooh shit, he pulled the "mature" card!!~
dap

Van Cruncheon

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the soldiers are doing their job. i remain impressed by their commitment as a collective (although i am disappointed by many of them as individuals). the army is a tool, and its function as a tool is not to question its purpose -- and with that in mind, i will never hold anything against them collectively. i do think they should be paid a fuckload better, though, and i think civilian leadership should treat them a LOT better, both abroad AND at home. i feel bad that many of them are probably disenchanted with their mission, but that's problem you need to bring to bear on our civilian leadership -- if we can't justify our purpose to them, and are instead just banging a hammer into an anthill because we can, then we, as civilians, need to call our leaders to account.

duc

Cyanista

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Ooh shit, he pulled the "mature" card!!~

Now I know he's a kid.  I don't even argue with adults that are so out of their element.

IGNORE ME
omg

MrAngryFace

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haha, I wish I knew the grand inquisitor in real life :(
o_0

Van Cruncheon

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the real question is: knowing this, why do erstwhile commentators continue to talk in ideals instead of broaching the fucking reality?

Which would be...

not being surprised, for starters, and factoring these expectations into their plans. fuck, i could have seen the delays and argumentation happening miles away. what distinguished mentally-challenged fellow thought they'd play nice? someone who thinks democracy is a good fit for the region, perhaps?

you don't think in terms of ideals with iraq. you take a long, hard, deep look at the reality, and you evolve your plans for the region from facts and real-world observations, not from college republican think tank inanity. we have to accept that we were the bad guy, and that to fix the region in the long term were are going to have to be an even badder guy -- we don't let them decide for themselves, because there isn't an iraqi capable of long-term and atruistic leadership in this time and place. we abandon democracy, parcel up the region with what force we can muster, and start propping up local leaders. we will never have the iraq we want in the short term, and we will never stop feeling the international ramifications for our actions. our kids' kids' KIDS will be dealing with the shit we did there. we need to face up to this and start taking some of the serious hurt onto ourselves, which includes humbling ourselves as well as facing the wrath of turkey and pakistan when we are forced to create a kurdistan. after that, we get the fuck out and damage control like motherfuckers.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 02:24:09 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

Tigerriot

  • Member
Drinky,

Why don't you just come clean, and admit that you came into this thread with an agenda.  You made claims and references to things I never said, and then convieniently ignored my questions about your statements.  I think you're still bitter about the creation/science thread after my final reply.

Then you referred to me as a "republican tool" when I never said a single thing to draw someone to that conclusion.  In fact, I made a lot of statements about what a mess it was going into Iraq.  You made some comment just now about "college republican think tanks", as if I have some perfect visions of how this Iraqi oil dispute should have worked itself out in 6 months.  I've never suggested anything of the sort.  I'm just acknowledging that at some point, people have got to demand that adults act like adults, and do what is best for their country as whole.  If that means compromising, then so be it.  Of course you keep ignoring those points as well.


For a lefty liberal you sure do seem to be against reconcilliation.  I guess you thought Nelson Mandela's plan for peace in Africa was just fucking insane.  That motherfucker should have been ready to settle scores, and stab some people.  What sense could he have had for wanting to move on with things, and make the country better?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 02:39:39 PM by Tigerriot »

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Drinky always has an agenda.

Mandark

  • Icon
Oh, FFS.

The Sunni bloc is quitting Maliki's government because they feel they're being shut out of important processes, especially security.  That means Maliki is going soft on partisan militias infiltrating the official state military.  Which he's doing because Dawa, SCIRI (or whatever they're being called now), and Al-Sadr's bloc are all part of his coalition.

As fucked up as this is, it's actually how a parliamentary democracy is meant to work.  If no one party has a majority, they stitch together a coalition.  The biggest bloc (in this case the UIA) primarily sets the agenda, but has to make concessions to its partners.  A group with a large minority stake wanted concessions that parts of the majority were unwilling to give it.

The part where it falls apart is that in a functioning democracy, a new coalition would be formed, and the most pressing issues would be settled legislatively, if by thin margins.

That won't happen here, because it relies on politicians feeling pressure from the electorate, and seeing the parliament as the only way to advance their agenda, or acquire power.  In Iraq, there's almost no functioning civil society, and security forces are split among local tribal forces, religious/partisan militias, a weak state army that's heavily infiltrated by those militias, and an occupying foreign army with lots of firepower but that doesn't speak the language much.

I'm sure that 99% of the Iraqi parliament would want peace, in a general sense.  A vast majority would probably be willing to compromise on important issues if they thought that would actually bring peace.

The problem is that for any individual politician or party, there is no guarantee that compromising, or even playing by the rules, will pay off.  You need mutual trust, where each side thinks it can put down its gun for a moment without the other side pressing the advantage and shooting them in the face.

Right now, there are big incentives to work outside the government (read: violence) to create more favorable conditions for whatever your side in the civil war is, and hold off on a political solution until the facts on the ground make your victory inevitable.  That's why the Kurds kept stalling on a census of Kirkuk as the PKK evicted Arabs and brought in Kurdish residents by the truckload.

Maybe if enough Iraqis wanted peace, then a new, dovish grassroots movement would replace the current politicians, right?  Except that's next to impossible, because IRAQ HAS NO CIVIL SOCIETY, AND LOCAL AND REGIONAL SECURITY IS DEPENDENT UPON PARTISAN MILITIAS.

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
I love it when you talk, Mandark.  I wish you were queer.
serge

nufaust

  • Junior Member
1-during the bush era american foreign policy has been run by industrial/military complex who care nothing but their power and control.

2- this industrial/military complex(or big money and deep government coalition in simpler terms) tightly controls US media and information outlets to make sure average american hears what their "commander in chiefs" at dc wants them to hear about these international conflicts. vietnam war was not really about "spreading democracy" neither is the iraqi one.

3- middle east is not a mess just because of the religion and or the backwardness of the people it's because 70% of oil (the most precious resourse in the world atm) is there. since 19th century all the international players in the world want a piece of it and they will do anything (promote inter communal/religious conflicts, spread propaganda, finance and setup terrorist organizations...list goes on) to get a slice of that "control". the current situation of middle is a western creation as much as the failure of the arab elite.

4-It's laughable for a right wing american to critisize arabs for killing each other since that's precisly what cia wants. most "analyst" in the white house would have heart attacks if arabs decided to really unite and control their resouces the way that they see fit one day.(then for example israel's existence would be threatened and their puppet saudi regime would fall)

5-US has a dirty history in the middle east (organizing a coup against democratically elelected leader of iran, supporting and financing dictators such as saddam, cia organizing and fiancing mujahhaddeen groups(that became taliban after fall of ussr), setting up/supporting puppet regimes such as saudi arabia, absolute support of israel under every condition..etc) but instead of coming clean and coming to an understanding of the situation at hand, it spreads these laughable radical right wing "these evildoers hate us because they hate freedom & democracy" and "islam is a historically violent barbaric religion" propaganda and closes its doors to actual resolution by refusing to talk to regional players.

6-it's funny to see avarage american still getting pissed of at "these backward muslims who can't get their shit together" instead of accepting the fact that their president LIED to his people and to the world, their industrial/military complex created a war that seriously distrupted/radicalized the world politics and their short sighted self centric plans forced a county into chaos and civil war. hundred thousands of innocent iraqi people(i'm not talking about the resistance here) has died and continue to die everyday but let's not talk about that human tragedy , let's talk about how muslims treat their women wrong ok mr. murdoch what ever you say :)


« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 06:19:30 PM by nufaust »

TVC15

  • Laugh when you can, it’s cheap medicine -LB
  • Senior Member
Eisenhower warned us, we did not listen.

[youtube=425,350]qdrGKwkmxAU[/youtube]

The country has fallen directly into the trap he described.  The man called it; gotta give him credit.
serge

Tigerriot

  • Member
So let me get this staight fellas.  This thread is now about the military industrial complex, and not about the Iraqi politicians who refuse to come to an agreement on oil revenues?


Just checking.  Keep me updated on what is the latest excuse for why they took the 5 week vacation last week, and why they refuse to compromise with one another.


spoiler (click to show/hide)
I agree the military industrial complex had a lot to do with this war starting, but that really doesn't have much to do with why these Iraqi politicians can't agree on oil revenue sharing.  But whatever!
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« Last Edit: August 01, 2007, 06:53:59 PM by Tigerriot »