So my mom just gave me the birds and bees talk...

[Smooth Groove]

I've never read anything that's considered homosexuality as a developmental problem.  But I guess it's a possibility.  It's possible that some genes that control sexuality go through abnormal recombination, mutation, etc and therefore produce homosexuality.  This would mean that there're no really "gay genes" per se even though there would still be a genetic component to homosexuality.  But there really hasn't been enough research on such a theory. 

A disorder is not really negative if you know what it means.  In many ways, it's better than classifying a "problem" as something that is affected by choice.  That's the reason why Bill Clinton called himself a sex addict.  You can't really blame someone if it's a disease.  It's the same way with personality disorders.  You can't really blame someone for something if he's naturally predisposed to do it. 

[Phoenix Dark]

I have 4 gay friends, 3 of which are men if you must know; I'm also still in contact with a former teacher of mine who is gay. One of them essentially helped me understand the issue, while I didn't even know the other 2 guys were gay for some time lol. It was pretty weird because looking back the tell tell signs were there. 

TVC 15, Nick, etc., don't count, dumbass.

They aren't my friends. You said mention people in real life correct? But yes, I have 3 gay friends I know over the internet as well; I'm not including anyone from GAF/EB. All three are from my "home" message board, and I consider them friends. Sadly one is in the closet and doesn't know that I know he's gay. Eh I'm not gonna touch that issue though because I don't know how; eventually he'll do the right thing for himself

And yes, I've been outside of Michigan and the country before. And yes (I'm reading your mind): I've been out of state without my parents before. And yes (I'm reading it again): I've been outside the country without them as well.

[Ichirou]

That's not what you said last time we talked about this issue. Either you're lying now or you were lying then.  Either way, you're an untrustworthy liar.  But then, we already knew that.

[Phoenix Dark]

SIGH. Because we all know that we update each other on all our life events, daily

I've traveled alone during AAU tournaments to Ohio, Indiana, and Flordia. In July I took a bus to Canada with friends to visit the Underground Railroad.

So...what now

[Ichirou]

SIGH. Because we all know that we update each other on all our life events, daily

I've traveled alone during AAU tournaments to Ohio, Indiana, and Flordia. In July I took a bus to Canada with friends to visit the Underground Railroad.

So...what now

You could always kill yourself.

And lol at counting Canada as traveling outside the country.

[Phoenix Dark]

SIGH. Because we all know that we update each other on all our life events, daily

I've traveled alone during AAU tournaments to Ohio, Indiana, and Flordia. In July I took a bus to Canada with friends to visit the Underground Railroad.

So...what now

You could always kill yourself.

And lol at counting Canada as traveling outside the country.

"I probably would if I looked like you"
/Shake

Nah, I'm not too impressed with life, but not depressed enough to snuff myself. At least not until Graduation comes out

[Ichirou]

You're not too impressed with life because you live inside a fucking eggshell.

[Phoenix Dark]

Ain't nothin wrong with keeping one's own company. Luckily I do fun things with friends and have a good social life when I want to. But as MAF always says, sometimes you just want to entertain your own company by yourself

[Gay Boy]

Gay gene eh? I've always thought it was more of a mental predisposition. I don't want to use the word disorder for obvious reasons (it being offensive for one)

Eh, not always. I am a only child and yet if I was gay I highly doubt my parents would mind one bit. My mom said she always hung out with gay guys and always went on with them and partied with them when she was single lol.

[Junpei the Tracer!]

Ichirou and PD have to stop arguing.

[bud]

what is thing about junpei having sucked a cock? is this some in-joke or did it actually happen. i'd actually believe it junpei really sucked a man's hot rod.

[bagofeyes]

Im back visiting my parents at the moment, and I heard their bed creaking before for about 10 minutes  :'( :'(

[bud]

are they alright?

[bagofeyes]

they may have been murdered. or i have a new baby brother or sister.

[bud]

junpei explain

[Junpei the Tracer!]

Congratulations.

And stop talking about me doing "things",you're ruining my chances with Verboten.

Bud there is nothing explain.

[bagofeyes]

B====D~~ (:

[bud]

you actually did it, huh 

how/why did it happen

[Himu]

I walked out of my room while saying "NO" when my mother tried to give me the talk a few years ago. The only reason she tried to was because of some shit that she saw on Oprah.

God, fuck Oprah.

[bud]

I walked out of my room while saying "NO" when my mother tried to give me the talk a few years ago. The only reason she tried to was because of some shit that she saw on Oprah.

God, fuck Oprah.

 

if it wasn't for oprah and dr. oz i would've never found out about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jala_neti

when there's nothing else on tv and oprah is on, i always end up watching it. <3 oprah

[Junpei the Tracer!]

Can Oprah,teach you how to woo a latina?

[Himu]

I walked out of my room while saying "NO" when my mother tried to give me the talk a few years ago. The only reason she tried to was because of some shit that she saw on Oprah.

God, fuck Oprah.

 

if it wasn't for oprah and dr. oz i would've never found out about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jala_neti

when there's nothing else on tv and oprah is on, i always end up watching it. <3 oprah

I just hate how the women watch Oprah and then they they're smart and knowledgable, when they forget they're WOMENZ lol and try to do every goddamn thing Oprah tells them to do when Oprah probably doesn't have experience in the subject at hand.

[bud]

so, like, ''fuck the women who watch oprah'' instead of ''fuck oprah.''

[Himu]

yep

[MrAngryFace]

Earlier today my mom called and said she was coming over and bringing an educational video on driving. State Farm has a program for young drivers in which the insurance is lowered if you watch a video, don't get in any accidents, etc. Well when I opened the front door an hour ago I was surprised to see she brought all three of my brothers. Once she walked in I knew something bad was about to happen. I figured this would devolve into another argument over educational goals, but instead she said she wanted to discuss the birds and the bees. Huh?

I'm twenty years old, have a semi relationship, and watch enough porn to know exactly what to do when that time comes. But alas I was subjected to 10 minutes of talk about "dating". My mom prefaced her speech by talking about the "new" stats that show that 80% of all women who have AIDS are black/latina. She wasn't amused by my solution to this dilemma ("just date white women"), and went on to discuss the politics of AIDS in the black world. Not surprisingly, it started with the down low brotha.

"A large portion of black males are incarcerated, and when they come out of jail many have AIDS. This is caused by the down low behavior: men who have sex with women, but have sex with men too"

*my brothers looked shocked at this revelation, I merely grimaced*

What struck me most was her attempt to put all the blame on the man, IE the homosexual man; there was no talk about personal responsibility among women, women having multiple babies with sorry men, etc. I didn't complain though, at least not until she brought up abstinence. On one hand I understood that yeah, when talking to say my 12 year old brother that may be a good move for a parent, but I had to argue. She claimed abstinence was the best plan, which on paper is true...but in practice, not so much. When I brought up condoms I was surprised she agreed a bit, but she said that having the "right" mindset is safer - whatever that means. The "right" mindset can also mean using a condom everytime. -_-

At the end of the day I'm shocked and a bit annoyed over this. It seems to me that she could have talked to my youngest brothers about this alone. She's VERY annoyed that I won't bring vamp girl over for dinner, and often she'll call asking whether I'm "with" anyone. She wants me to bring her to my parent's big Obama fundraiser/rally next week lol, and I've rejected the offer. I'll introduce them when I feel comfortable. Right now I don't want to give off false hints anyway

[Robo]

I walked out of my room while saying "NO" when my mother tried to give me the talk a few years ago. The only reason she tried to was because of some shit that she saw on Oprah.

God, fuck Oprah.

 

if it wasn't for oprah and dr. oz i would've never found out about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jala_neti

when there's nothing else on tv and oprah is on, i always end up watching it. <3 oprah

There's a dish used to clean out your nose?  Motherfucker, you just snort a pool of water and then rocket it out.  Don't be a pussy. 

Further reason to hate Oprah: turning perfectly good Die Hard-loving duders into total ceramic dish pussies. 

[Himu]

Further reason to hate Oprah: turning perfectly good Die Hard-loving duders into total ceramic dish pussies. 

Who?

[bud]

  :'(

bruce never came on oprah :'(

[Robo]

Further reason to hate Oprah: turning perfectly good Die Hard-loving duders into total ceramic dish pussies. 

Who?

bud.  Although he does like Aerosmith, so it may have been inevitable.

[bud]

Further reason to hate Oprah: turning perfectly good Die Hard-loving duders into total ceramic dish pussies. 

Who?

bud.  Although he does like Aerosmith, so it may have been inevitable.

bruce sacrificed himself to save us

i just like that one song though

[MrAngryFace]

[Robo]

Further reason to hate Oprah: turning perfectly good Die Hard-loving duders into total ceramic dish pussies. 

Who?

bud.  Although he does like Aerosmith, so it may have been inevitable.

bruce sacrificed himself to save us

i just like that one song though

Bruce Willis even hates that movie.  And he passionately hates Michael Bay. 

RESPECT

[bud]

i know.

john mctiernan > michael bay

[Phoenix Dark]

Gay gene eh? I've always thought it was more of a mental predisposition. I don't want to use the word disorder for obvious reasons (it being offensive for one)

Eh, not always. I am a only child and yet if I was gay I highly doubt my parents would mind one bit. My mom said she always hung out with gay guys and always went on with them and partied with them when she was single lol.

No matter what she says there's a part of her that would be instinctively upset, especially since you're an only child. The "family line" would be weakened if you didn't have children

[Flannel Boy]

It's assumed that lots of gay men did indeed have kids.  Otherwise there won't be so many people with gay genes.  Unless there's really no genetic disposition to be homosexual, then it's an entirely different matter.

LATE

A possible 'gay gene' or 'gay genes' could be passed on by non-homosexuals the same way a color blindness gene can be passed down to a boy from a women who is not actually color blind herself. Or the way dwarfism can be passed on to a child from parents who are not dwarfs. So even if gays never procreate a possible gay gene(s) could nevertheless spread.

Though, homosexuals have and continue to have children.

At any rate, the prenatal environment seems like it is more important than genetics in determining a child’s sexuality.

[Smooth Groove]

It's assumed that lots of gay men did indeed have kids.  Otherwise there won't be so many people with gay genes.  Unless there's really no genetic disposition to be homosexual, then it's an entirely different matter.

LATE

A possible 'gay gene' or 'gay genes' could be passed on by non-homosexuals the same way a color blindness gene can be passed down to a boy from a women who is not actually color blind herself. Or the way dwarfism can be passed on to a child from parents who are not dwarfs. So even if gays never procreate a possible gay gene(s) could nevertheless spread.

Though, homosexuals have and continue to have children.

At any rate, the prenatal environment seems like it is more important than genetics in determining a child’s sexuality.

Yes, but genes that prevent procreation are usually eliminated by evolution.  Which is why you rarely see in today's world genetic diseases that kill children because most of those genes would not have been passed down.    Which is why I said that gay people probably had kids in the past.  Still, it's just a hypothesis.  No one has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that one's sexual nature is determined by genetic factors or not. 

[Phoenix Dark]

Philosophy vs Biology, FIGHT


Winner faces me

[TVC15]

Homosexuality is a recent development; see Queer Theory:

The Constructivists counter, that there is no natural, that all meaning is constructed through discourse and there is no other subject other than the creation of meaning for social theory. In a Constructivist perspective, it is not proper to take gay or lesbian as subjects with objective reality; but rather they must be understood in terms of their social context, in how genealogy creates these terms through history.

For example, as Foucault explains in his The History of Sexuality, 200 years ago there was no linguistic category for gay male. Instead, the term applied to sex between two men was sodomy. Over time, the homosexual was created through the discourses of medicine and especially psychiatry. What is conventionally understood to be the same practice was gradually transformed from a sinful lifestyle into an issue of sexual orientation. Foucault argues that prior to this discursive creation there was no such thing as a person who could think of himself as essentially gay.

[Smooth Groove]

Foucault could be right but I've to read more into his theory.  Anthropologists haven't always been judicious in the use of the scientific method.  In fact, much of the racism in the eugenics era was due to anthropologists that just made stuff up in their brains.  Foucault's Madness and Civilization was interesting to read though.  I'll check out The History of Sexuality when I have time. 

[Gay Boy]

Homosexuality is a recent development; see Queer Theory:

The Constructivists counter, that there is no natural, that all meaning is constructed through discourse and there is no other subject other than the creation of meaning for social theory. In a Constructivist perspective, it is not proper to take gay or lesbian as subjects with objective reality; but rather they must be understood in terms of their social context, in how genealogy creates these terms through history.

For example, as Foucault explains in his The History of Sexuality, 200 years ago there was no linguistic category for gay male. Instead, the term applied to sex between two men was sodomy. Over time, the homosexual was created through the discourses of medicine and especially psychiatry. What is conventionally understood to be the same practice was gradually transformed from a sinful lifestyle into an issue of sexual orientation. Foucault argues that prior to this discursive creation there was no such thing as a person who could think of himself as essentially gay.

how does this theory explain the occurrence of homosexual animals such as monkeys and penguins that show up? If homosexuality is a sin that got transformed via psychiatry and other such sources (and origins with "sin") that animals cant apply to.

[TVC15]

I think the logic is fairly sound.  If there wasn't a word for something, it likely didn't exist yet or else it would have been named.  "Homosexual" comes from the late 19th century, but the study of the phenomenon goes back another couple of decades.  There was always, say, the act of sodomy between men, but that was just an act, not a lifestyle.  The homosexual lifestyle, the orientation, did not exist until the 19th century.  It probably came into existence then because that is when governments started heavily legislating against sexuality.  It's about power and forbidden fruit and all that nonsense.  When the action you desire is forbidden, you might find yourself thinking about it more often and define yourself in relation to it.

how does this theory explain the occurrence of homosexual animals such as monkeys and penguins that show up? If homosexuality is a sin that got transformed via psychiatry and other such sources (and origins with "sin") that animals cant apply to.

Do these animals exclusively have same sex relations?  Separate the act from the lifestyle.

[Smooth Groove]

That's an interesting perspective, TVC.  I have to read up more on it.  I don't know if it's just a lifestyle though.  Because some men consider themselves to be gay despite having only straight lifestyles their whole lives. 

Philosophy vs Biology, FIGHT

Biology wins 99% of the time.  Most of Aristotle's scientific theories have been proven to be wrong.  Scientists from all fields still respect him though because he was one of the first people to really use his brain. 

[TVC15]

That's an interesting perspective, TVC.  I have to read up more on it.  I don't know if it's just a lifestyle though.  Because some men consider themselves to be gay despite having only straight lifestyles their whole lives.

Human or other animal, there are definitely other imperatives to the action other than sheer compulsion, whether nature or nurture; it's just that for whatever reason, legislation or not, it didn't develop into a lifestyle until the 19th century.

[Phoenix Dark]

I think the logic is fairly sound.  If there wasn't a word for something, it likely didn't exist yet or else it would have been named.  "Homosexual" comes from the late 19th century, but the study of the phenomenon goes back another couple of decades.  There was always, say, the act of sodomy between men, but that was just an act, not a lifestyle.  The homosexual lifestyle, the orientation, did not exist until the 19th century.  It probably came into existence then because that is when governments started heavily legislating against sexuality.  It's about power and forbidden fruit and all that nonsense.  When the action you desire is forbidden, you might find yourself thinking about it more often and define yourself in relation to it.

how does this theory explain the occurrence of homosexual animals such as monkeys and penguins that show up? If homosexuality is a sin that got transformed via psychiatry and other such sources (and origins with "sin") that animals cant apply to.

Do these animals exclusively have same sex relations?  Separate the act from the lifestyle.

With that wording it sounds more like a choice than anything natural though.

We know homosexual sex was rampant in Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc during their golden eras. But even then it seemed more like a sexual hobby, or escapade than an actual lifestyle. I'm sure some people solely practiced homosexual sex, but once again it wasn't what we consider the homosexual lifestyle. Hm

[Smooth Groove]

I know other gay men might feel diffently, but what do you think about your homosexuality, TVC?  How much of it was a choice for you?  

[TVC15]

I know other gay men might feel diffently, but what do you think about your homosexuality, TVC?  How much of it was a choice for you?  

Not a choice, despite what PD says.  Certainly there could have been environmental factors or non-genetic factors or something like that, but to say it is a choice, which implies a conscious decision, is silly.

I don't particularly care, I am what I am.

[Phoenix Dark]

I know other gay men might feel diffently, but what do you think about your homosexuality, TVC?  How much of it was a choice for you? 

Not a choice, despite what PD says.  Certainly there could have been environmental factors or non-genetic factors or something like that, but to say it is a choice, which implies a conscious decision, is silly.

I don't particularly care, I am what I am.

I never said it was a choice. I said that the wording in your post sounded more like "choice" than nature to me.

I think some people choose to be homosexuals, but I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that it's not also something people are born with.

[Smooth Groove]

I know other gay men might feel diffently, but what do you think about your homosexuality, TVC?  How much of it was a choice for you?  

Not a choice, despite what PD says.  Certainly there could have been environmental factors or non-genetic factors or something like that, but to say it is a choice, which implies a conscious decision, is silly.

I don't particularly care, I am what I am.

Sorry if it sounded like I consider homosexuality to be affected by choice.  It was a bad leading question, I should have worded it more carefully.  I was just curious to know what you personally thought about choice vs nature. 

[brawndolicious]

I remember reading how the church was lax on prostitution around 300 years ago to try discourage men from having homosexual relationships but I don't remember how effective it was.  it apparently was one of the things that pissed off pilgrims enough to come to america.  it would be HARD to find any evidence of an actual lifestyle of homosexuality hundreds of years ago and even then it could be something where the person is in denial to themselves.  There's definitely been some homosexual and hermaphrodite rulers in history though and most of the evidence is in their beliefs and orders.

[TVC15]

it would be HARD to find any evidence of an actual lifestyle of homosexuality hundreds of years ago and even then it could be something where the person is in denial to themselves. 

Not really.  If it existed, there would have been a word for it in western civilization.  We're good at naming things.  Heck, we sometimes name things that don't even exist.

[bagofeyes]

zing

[Flannel Boy]

Yes, but genes that prevent procreation are usually eliminated by evolution. 

You missed my point. A person could carry a gene without a phenotypic expression of that gene. So a person could carry a 'gay gene' while still being straight and procreating. Thus the gene doesn't necessarily prevent procreation.

IN FACT, one theory posited is that the same gene(s) that contribute to homosexuality in men actually help women (who carry the gene(s)) produce more children. Whether this is true or not is another story. The point is, even if homosexuals never had children this theory shows how such genes could nevertheless spread.




20th century French philosophers. Le sigh. The term 'heterosexuality' was created in the 19th century thus I can only assume that heterosexuality did not exist prior to the 19th century. Sure, the homosexual lifestyle is a modern cultural creation. However homosexuality is not.

[Smooth Groove]

Yes, but genes that prevent procreation are usually eliminated by evolution. 

You missed my point. A person could carry a gene without a phenotypic expression of that gene. So a person could carry a 'gay gene' while still being straight and procreating. Thus the gene doesn't necessarily prevent procreation.

IN FACT, one theory posited is that the same gene(s) that contribute to homosexuality in men actually help women (who carry the gene(s)) produce more children. Whether this is true or not is another story. The point is, even if homosexuals never had children this theory shows how such genes could nevertheless spread.




20th century French philosophers. Le sigh. The term 'heterosexuality' was created in the 19th century thus I can only assume that heterosexuality did not exist prior to the 19th century. Sure, the homosexual lifestyle is a modern cultural creation. However homosexuality is not.

I know what you're saying.  I just didn't think the homosexual allele frequency would be as small as it would be in your scenario.   There are so many gay people today that it was hard to believe that those gay alleles could have been carried blindly for so long.  However, your theory or something similar to it, could be correct if there are multiple genes that work together to determine sexuality, which is also very likely.  Knowing what we know today, it's very likely that sexual identity is a multiple-gene trait.  But still, we're just making blind assumptions.  It's hard to make any solid argument without even preliminary genetic data to rely on.   

Your 2nd point is interesting because I remember another famous philsopher that stated the same pt you did.  Which is that something exists even if you didn't have a name for it.  Did I understand correctly what you're saying?

[Flannel Boy]

Your 2nd point is interesting because I remember another famous philsopher that stated the same pt you did.  Which is that something exists even if you didn't have a name for it.  Did I understand correctly what you're saying?

This does not strike me as a contentious point. Sex, for instance, existed long before humans had a name for it -- or even had the capacity to name it. Though, we certainly had the capacity to name male homosexuality long before we actually did*.

If there was no category for male homosexual until the 19th century that might be because Carolus Linnaeus was not born sooner. That is, his system of scientific taxonomy influenced others to classify and categorize things that weren't previously classified or categorized -- like homosexuality.

*male homosexuals were often referred to as sodomites. Though, obviously, the term was also applied to males who had anal sex with women. However, I'm guessing the term had different connotations depending on who the term was applied to. 

[TVC15]

Heterosexuality was the status quo, and it thus didn't really require to be distinguished from anything else.

[brawndolicious]

homosexuality definitely existed though because people had cultural beliefs that involved homosexual relationships.  did abrahamic religions make the number of people with these beliefs lessen, doubtful.

[TVC15]

If you say so.