What the hell. Do you have to be a normal person to not like Clockwork Orange?

[bud]

Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also

did you watch redux (directors cut)?  even better than the original, just the way copolla wanted it (despite the brando drama at the time).

the redux made me fall asleep. the original cut is the best one, imo.

[MrAngryFace]

Never seen it. Dont care to. Burn

[Phoenix Dark]

Apocalypse Now is my favorite Vietnam film, although I've heard some people say it's not a Vietnam film. I really like Platoon also

did you watch redux (directors cut)?  even better than the original, just the way copolla wanted it (despite the brando drama at the time).

I've heard some bad things about the Redux. I'm gonna check it out asap

[brawndolicious]

That becoming a soldier makes you lose your identity. It's about dehumanization. The entire movie they praise killing and "being born again hard" but when Joker finally makes his "war face" it shows that he has regressed, not evolved as a better human being. This is why at the end of the movie they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club anthem - a children's song.
Joker is the only character in the entire movie who retains a sense of self and has and identity.  He discounts everything in a jokingly manner. "It's just business" But when he finally makes that kill, he still continues to try to stay himself and not become another pawn to CORPS. "I am in a world of shit, yes, but I am alive."

That's a lot to assume based on you know, what the movie actually tells you.

[Stocky]

That becoming a soldier makes you lose your identity. It's about dehumanization. The entire movie they praise killing and "being born again hard" but when Joker finally makes his "war face" it shows that he has regressed, not evolved as a better human being. This is why at the end of the movie they are singing the Mickey Mouse Club anthem - a children's song.
Joker is the only character in the entire movie who retains a sense of self and has and identity.  He discounts everything in a jokingly manner. "It's just business" But when he finally makes that kill, he still continues to try to stay himself and not become another pawn to CORPS. "I am in a world of shit, yes, but I am alive."

That's a lot to assume based on you know, what the movie actually tells you.

A lot of movies leave the theme up to the individual. That's what make them great.

[Robo]

Redux is awful.  Only the scene with Willard & Friends happening upon the French family along the river and some of the ensuing dialogues adds anything to the film.  As for the remaining additions, if they aren't totally warping the originals portrayal of Willard, they're superfluous and redundant -- and coupled with some of the pacing problems they present, merely extend the run-time to a nearly intolerable length.

I don't particularly care if it was Coppolla's true vision, it's inferior to the original theatrical version.  I should add that, as a huge fan of the movie, I enjoy watching the additionally filmed segments (and they're all absolutely gorgeous), but within context of the film, they largely do nothing but hurt it.

[brawndolicious]

A lot of movies leave the theme up to the individual. That's what make them great.

yeah but whether or not the person loses their identity is based on what kind of person they are and what they went through.  that's not a theme that you can leave for people to figure out.

In platoon, there's internal dialogue and things to tell you what the character is thinking.  while I hate oliver stone and don't think platoon was that good, it was more well-done than FMJ.

[Himu]

It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.

[bud]

i liked the bootcamp part more than the part that took place in vietnam.

[Phoenix Dark]

Bud what do you give FMJ i trust your judgement

[Himu]

i liked the bootcamp part more than the part that took place in vietnam.

So did I, but I think that they all compliment each other.

[brawndolicious]

It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.

yeah it's obvious that's it's message but it doesn't do a good job as a movie.

[The Sceneman]

no one ever said Clockwork Orange was any good

[Himu]

It's pretty obvious FMJ is about dehumanization through the boot camp segment alone. The boot camp segment is there to support the rest of the movie and Joker's development.

yeah it's obvious that's it's message but it doesn't do a good job as a movie.

what? all of this stuff is absolutely subtle

[bud]

Bud what do you give FMJ i trust your judgement

it's been too long since i've seen it the last time, but you should definitely check it out if you haven't yet.

[TVC15]

Clockwork Orange rocks, Oliver Stone is still balls.

Oliver Stone was pretty great up until 1994-95.  After Natural Born Killers he lost it, though.  Well, not that NBK is a great movie, either, but I think it's his last truly interesting movie.

Eh, Nixon isn't bad, either, but it's hard not to compare the movie to JFK, so it looks poor in comparison.

[Ichirou]

Full Metal Jacket is a great movie.

[brawndolicious]

what? all of this stuff is absolutely subtle

if it was subtle then there'd be more chemistry between the characters to make you then interested in what's going to happen in the story.  that's what I'm saying is missing from FMJ.

[Ichirou]

am nintenho, have you ever considered that you might not be cut out to appreciate the subtlety of master artists excelling at their craft?  I mean, for chrissakes, you don't even understand Slaughterhouse-Five.

[brawndolicious]

my point is that the reason that the vietnam war made soldiers feel like they had no identity was that holy fuck, there was a draft.  the movie shows the drill instructor as the one taking away their identity which imo doesn't make sense.  sorry if I didn't say that before.

[Himu]

the characters lack chemistry but that's the whole point. These are all guys doing their own thing and fighting for their own reasons. Animal Mother does not respect Joker, Cowboy, or Rafterman but he associates with Touchdown and considers him a good friend. This is why he always does shit to "tick" Touchdown off, like take the hooker from him and say nig.ger jokes. He knows that Touchdown is comfortable with it because he knows Mother's simply joking and busting his balls.

Joker and Cowboy are great friends. During the boot camp Joker says,"I'd like to stick my tubesteak into your sister." and Cowboy obliges, because he loves the guy. "What do ya got in return?"

Rafterman only fights because he's the type of drone who thinks that winning the war will give Vietnam "freedom" and pursues getting in the shit, even though he's only a fucking pogue who rarely goes into the action in the first place.

All of this dialogue appears in random places in the stor
y and most people who do not "get" FMJ simply look over them.

Character relationships does not take away from the fact that FMJ is about dehumanization and regression.

The thing I really think that sets FMJ -- and Kubrick's work in general -- apart, and also causes trouble with a lot of viewers, is his insistence on being true to a situation, and to complexityof character. As horrible as he is, given the situation there are a lot of valid reasons for Hartman to behave as he does; as much as they may seem awful, it's an awful situation. Similarly, Animal Mother's viciousness, Cowboy's inability, Joker's opportunism -- these are all extremely complex, contradictory characters, and they resist easy categories, easy good/bad descriptions: compare them to either of the Sgt's in Platoon, it's like night and day. Of course, not everyone likes complexity or not having things spelled out, and a lot of people can't get a handle on FMJ either.

Nintendho - read these links:

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0030.html

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0093.html

http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0079.html

To me the unalterable distinction between Platoon and Full Metal Jacket is that Platoon tells you exactly how to feel about practically every minute of the film, and Full Metal Jacket about practically none of it. And to me one of those options is simply a better kind of art.

Again, I really think people have a very hard time seeing Full Metal Jacket if they concentrate on what it isn't -- i.e. on how they think a war movie ought to behave -- than on watching how it does behave. I think with an artist of Kubrick's stature one owes it to him to go in with an open mind and see what is happening. Most of the negative reactions to Full Metal Jacket -- Ebert included -- are full of frustrated expectations that they have brought to the experience.

[brawndolicious]

Character relationships does not take away from the fact that FMJ is about dehumanization and regression.

what my point was is that with the boot camp scene, it doesn't have anything to do with the message of the movie.  I mean I understand the duality of the characters and how the movie is trying to show how they're all different and doesn't try to focus on it to let the viewer watch how they want, but imo it should've shown why there is a duality in the characters to be a more interesting movie.  the movie tries to show everything in a balanced way by focusing on the guy who's job is to give a bias to the war.  then why does it focus on ONE fucking scene that has anything to do with his fucking job?