What's with all the death penalty supporters?

[Ruzbeh]

Here we are, in the 21st century, and there are still so many people (mostly dumbshit Americans) that are pro death penalty. It's extremely simple: The justice system is to protect the innocent. The death penalty kills innocent people. So the death penalty shouldn't be part of the justice system, because it does exactly the opposite of what the justice system is supposed to do. Apparantly, this logic, as well as so many other things (war in iraq lol) escapes the typical, stupid American thinking Americans are so renowned for.

I honestly don't understand the problem here.

[whiteACID]

Some people believe that if you kill someone that you to deserve to die, how hard is that to understand? I'm sure that innocent people are executed so it's a very touchy subject. But if someone killed your whole family what would you want to see happen to them?

[Mupepe]

I've got no problem with the death penalty for child molestors, murderers, rapists etc...


But like whiteacid said, some innocent people die and so i'm kinda torn.

oh well!  i'm an ass

[whiteACID]

Some people believe that if you kill someone that you to deserve to die, how hard is that to understand?

The justice system isn't there to satisfy people's sense of revenge.

The death penalty has nothing to do whether or not you want certain people to die. Especially Americans don't understand this. Some people say, killing is good because it says in the bible or whatever. And then other people say it's bad because the bible say thou shalt not kill or whatever the fuck. But that's completely fucking irrevelant when you get the wrong person. It is regrettable that you have to base law and regulation on the fact that there will always be a slight, slight chance the justice system will make mistakes (because humans make mistakes). The justice system must protect the innocent as good as it can, though.

I'm sure that innocent people are executed so it's a very touchy subject. But if someone killed your whole family what would you want to see happen to them?

I would want that person to be locked up forever, because I don't want that person to commit the same crime again and hurt innocent people again. It has nothing to do with how severe crimes are.

you wouldn't want some sort of revenge against that person? I don't really have a strong view on the subject because placed in that situation I'm not sure how I would feel. If someone killed my mother I would probably want to see them die.

I must note that some of the only countries in the world to still have the death penalty are: China, Iraq, Sudan and Iran. That's really a list that the US wants to be on.

[brawndolicious]

If the person admits to it or if there's evidence such as video or photos that they did it, then I support them getting no appeals and dieing within a year.  I don't support it because I believe there should be revenge but because prisons are overcrowded, so clear up the shit.

now the three strikes law, THAT is bullshit.

[Van Cruncheon]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

[TakingBackSunday]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

I think the problem I have with it is that it seems that society lowers itself to the pyschopaths' level when a death sentence is carried out.  Of course, society nowadays is in many ways just as bad as idealists fear it will become, so I guess it can't be something that is easily swayed.

I don't really believe in causing the death of anybody.  *shurgs*  No one truly deserves to have their life ended, no matter how awful they've been.  I might be wrong, I don't know, it just doesn't seem in good morals.

[Mupepe]

i'm an evil fuck and watching people fry makes me wet.

[Mupepe]

oh and btw, if some asshole touched my daughter or something along those lines, i'd not only be in support of him dying, i'd feel good if they let me carry it out.

call me barbaric or whatever, but that's truly how i feel.

[Mandark]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

That's why it should be there.  The real-life implementation, like the criminal justice system in general, is pretty flawed, and you get cases like Kenneth Foster.

I support the state's authority to do all sorts of things to its citizens in the name of society, but I do that knowing the state can seriously fuck up.  Killing an innocent person is a pretty huge thing, and one that can't be redressed.

[Candyflip]

oh and btw, if some asshole touched my daughter or something along those lines, i'd not only be in support of him dying, i'd feel good if they let me carry it out.

Hah. Reminds me of that Samuel L. Jackson movie where he takes out those rednecks that raped/abused/molested his 11 year old daughter in the courthouse. With a fucking AK no less. Savage.

Anyway, I think it differs from case to case. Personally I think the death penalty is something that should be reserved for only the lowest scum on this earth, IE serial killers, brutal rapists, etc.

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

Well yeah, but I'm sure a large amount of people don't view it in such a logical manner. They just want to see a guy forced to "pay" for his crime.

The death penalty is there there to ultimately keep society safe, but I can understand why some people have moral quandaries regarding it. Still, some people really are better off dead.

[brawndolicious]

I remember a story about how this one 70 year old priest was caught molesting a bunch of kids in his lifetime and was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole.  He was bunked with another lifer who couldn't get parole.

the other lifer killed him and I heard he did it by jumping on the priest when he was asleep until he broke every bone in his body (the guy was 70 so he got the bottom bunk) and then he smothered him to finish the job.

the thing is that it was in massachusets so there's no death penalty and they just gave the priest's cellmate another life sentence.  the guy would strut around and feel like a hero and I'm sure that that pedos more than anything else.  the way the priest was killed was very sick and sadistic but does anybody feel bad for him?  no, that's what I thought.

I don't think the legal system needs to make any real difference between life without parole and the death penalty because you are pure shit if you got either sentence.  it probably depends on your judge in most states which sentence you get.

Hah. Reminds me of that Samuel L. Jackson movie where he takes out those rednecks that raped/abused/molested his 11 year old daughter in the courthouse. With a fucking AK no less. Savage.

it was an M16.

[Candyflip]

it was an M16.

Point still stands. Samuel doesn't take shit from no one.

[brawndolicious]

Point still stands. Samuel doesn't take shit from no one.

it was kind of a mushy movie after that scene though.

[Mondain]

Why let all these odious persons cost millions of dollars individually to the government over the course of their sentences? Prisoner pruning has its advantages.

[Mupepe]

Why let all these odious persons cost millions of dollars individually to the government over the course of their sentences? Prisoner pruning has its advantages.

Applying the death penalty costs so, so, so, so much more than keeping them in prison for life.

fo real real

the cost of their court appeals alone is pretty ridiculous

[Mondain]

damn, even over the course of 40-50+ years of incarceration?

[Mupepe]

damn, even over the course of 40-50+ years of incarceration?

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html

ignore the alarmist bullshit towards the end.  but there are several facts backed up by sources near the top.

[Phoenix Dark]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

That's why it should be there.  The real-life implementation, like the criminal justice system in general, is pretty flawed, and you get cases like Kenneth Foster.

I support the state's authority to do all sorts of things to its citizens in the name of society, but I do that knowing the state can seriously fuck up.  Killing an innocent person is a pretty huge thing, and one that can't be redressed.

qft

It's the only issue I mix religion in. There's not a judge on earth who's all knowing, which should be the qualification for making such a monumental decision. One innocent person being executed is one too many

[brawndolicious]

that's why I approve no appeals for special cases.  and it does cost a lot for appeals but consider prisons are NOW at 200% and obviously more prisons and guards will cost a lot.

[Mupepe]

They should at least toke you up with some H before they fry, hang or inject you.  That would rock.

[Mupepe]

Ruzbeh, would you ever let me fellate you?  Maybe just the tip?

[Candyflip]

They should at least toke you up with some H before they fry, hang or inject you.  That would rock.

That would make for a nice last supper. "Can I have a steak with some heroin on the side?"

[Mupepe]

They should at least toke you up with some H before they fry, hang or inject you.  That would rock.

That would make for a nice last supper. "Can I have a steak with some heroin on the side?"

that shit would be awesome.

[Mupepe]

Ruzbeh, would you ever let me fellate you?  Maybe just the tip?

 :stfu

that's a yes, you fucking homophobe.

[Loki]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

Are you playing devil's advocate or have you done a complete 180 from a few years back?  I remember us discussing this (on opposite sides of the argument) pretty heatedly on GA.  This was basically my stance -- that the dispassionate, even-handed, and utilitarian application of the death penalty serves the best interests of society.  

Also, to elaborate for the sake of others who have not heard my views on this before, I only support the DP in cases where there is an overwhelming abundance of evidence (e.g., multiple eyewitnesses plus circumstantial evidence plus DNA/video etc.; the ideal case would be a hostage situation that ends badly for the victims).  I would not under any circumstance endorse the DP for weakly supported murder cases, however egregious the act was.  It should be noted that I am also perfectly fine with life imprisonment instead of the DP, as possible recidivism is ultimately what I'm concerned about.  


For those serving a life term, I believe that prison life should be minimalist (which it currently is not).  One can argue that something a cut above subsistence level would be fine for those convicted of lesser offenses, as you don't want them to become unduly hardened upon their eventual release, since this might contribute to recidivism.  I do believe in things like education and vocational programs for inmates who are not serving life terms.  

[Robo]

Loki

[Mupepe]

Loki and I once played "just the tip".  it was awesome.

[Loki]

Oh brother.

There truly is no hope for the Americans.

Yeah man, I'm hopeless...

[Candyflip]

I only support the DP in cases where there is an overwhelming abundance of evidence

Oh brother.

There truly is no hope for the Americans.

You provide such a convincing counter argument.

[Van Cruncheon]

you lack the moral clarity of the autistic social distinguished mentally-challenged fellow, loki!

[Mupepe]

I only support the DP in cases where there is an overwhelming abundance of evidence

Oh brother.

There truly is no hope for the Americans.

There's no hope for the autistic

[Van Cruncheon]

loki, honestly, i go both ways on it. i am aware of the failings of human justice, but i also fear recidivism and the waste of resources on incarceration and correction that may change absolutely nothing. given a time of day, i could loosely side with either view. that's fine, because i view very few things as black-and-white -- fortunately, i wasn't born autistic!

[Loki]

You provide such a convincing counter argument.

Mind you, I didn't even lay out any sort of pro-DP argument; I explained what my views are, not why they are.

Regardless, I'm irredeemably lost.  So says Ruzbeh.

[Loki]

So let's just take something random and say it's one innocent person in a million. Why do you consider that worth it? Why do you want the death penalty so badly? What the hell is wrong with you?

Nothing at all:

It should be noted that I am also perfectly fine with life imprisonment instead of the DP, as possible recidivism is ultimately what I'm concerned about.

Never let it be said that I'm not reasonable.  


Also, there is no absolutely no chance that the person is innocent in my hypothetical hostage standoff example.  You're being querulous.

[max_cool]

Awww fuck I couldn't get past the first few posts.

The justice system is there to protect innocent people??? Since when?

The justice system is there to determine innocence or guilt, not to protect the innocent!

Fucking shit man, don't you know anything? The only thing it protects is due process of law and persons right to a fair trial. Outside of that there is nothing to protect the innocent.

And don't even give me that "innocent until proven guilty" bullshit. That doesn't protect the innocent that protects the guilty.

[Gay Boy]

If I was faced with a choice of sitting in prison for the rest of my life or getting injected and getting it over with I'd take the needle personally.

Rotting in jail for 30-50 years? Not my idea of fun. Getting the death penalty is the easy way out.

[max_cool]

it's not there to satisfy revenge. it's there to remove dangerous elements -- specifically psychopaths and extreme sociopaths -- from society. why should society support an element that seeks to take individual lives without conscience?

Are you playing devil's advocate or have you done a complete 180 from a few years back?   I remember us discussing this (on opposite sides of the argument) pretty heatedly on GA.  This was basically my stance -- that the dispassionate, even-handed, and utilitarian application of the death penalty serves the best interests of society.

sorry to spoil your party there Loki, but I think you mean retributive application of the death penalty. Utilitarian approach believes that punishment is evil and that it should only serve to prevent further evil. The descriptive adjectives you used before "utilitarian" leads me to beleive you were not actually espousing a utilitarian view.

[max_cool]

Awww fuck I couldn't get past the first few posts.

The justice system is there to protect innocent people??? Since when?

The justice system is there to determine innocence or guilt, not to protect the innocent!

Fucking shit man, don't you know anything? The only thing it protects is due process of law and persons right to a fair trial. Outside of that there is nothing to protect the innocent.

And don't even give me that "innocent until proven guilty" bullshit. That doesn't protect the innocent that protects the guilty.

 

seriously! show me where the justice system is set up to protect the innocent.

The justice system is set up so that if you are innocent you will not be punished, it is not set up to protect the innocent.

It is set up to make sure a guilty party is in fact guilty, not that an innocent party is in fact innocent.

[brawndolicious]

I know Texas has a system where if there were two or more eyewitnesses that say they saw you do the murder, you get no appeals and go directly to execution.  I support a system like that but with video/DNA evidence as well.

[Loki]

sorry to spoil your party there Loki, but I think you mean retributive application of the death penalty. Utilitarian approach believes that punishment is evil and that it should only serve to prevent further evil. The descriptive adjectives you used before "utilitarian" leads me to beleive you were not actually espousing a utilitarian view.

That's exactly the sense I was using it in, though.  Note: small utilitarian, not big Utilitarian, in case you're confused.  Perhaps it was awkwardly worded, but that's what I meant.  "Utilitarian," as distinct from -- and opposed to -- retributive, as you noted.  Which is why I said "dispassionate" and "even-handed," to distinguish it from something baser like retributive or punitory bloodlust.

[Mandark]

The death penalty gets a lot of play because it's a dramatic, visceral issue, and gets used as political shorthand for Nurturing, Bleeding Heart Liberal vs. Law and Order Conservative.

I think the prison system in the US has a lot more impact on society outside the death row cases.  Institutionalized rape, gangs, privatized incarceration, the war on drugs, the whole shebang.  It would probably be a lot more constructive for us as a society to focus on the bigger picture issues, but that's not gonna happen.

[MrAngryFace]

we need to keep a few crazies alive in prisons to deal with the pedophiles we send to jail.

[Loki]

Utilitarian approach believes that punishment is evil and that it should only serve to prevent further evil.

While Utilitarianism (capital "U") is certainly concerned with maximizing the social benefit of public policy, I think it is incorrect to attribute to it (as traditionally conceived of by Bentham and Mill, at least -- I don't keep up with contemporary Utilitarian literature) a distaste for punitive measures in principle.  One can easily envisage a culture wherein the "greatest happiness principle" would be satisfied by handing out public beatings (and indeed such cultures have existed, with some still extant).  Consequentialist ethical systems are notorious for being easily manipulable based on the social milieu, and Utilitarianism is no different in that regard.

[Mupepe]

can i kill someone now?  hell, i think i'm going to quit my job and go work for Huntsville so I can watch someone fry or beat the crap out of them with a stick.

[huckleberry]

Just a personal note...a few years ago I had a woman who worked for me that use to have correspond with death row inmates.  She was really quiet and I thought maybe it was like some kind of sicko desire to get it on with a "dead man walking" kind of thing.  It turns out that she had an uncle who was executed in Alabama a decade ago or so.  Her uncle was one of the Vietnam veterans that fell through the cracks and had true mental problems....didn't matter during the trial though, the killed his ass anyway. 

People that support the death penalty shit should remember one thing...nothing will bring the victim back...nothing.

[Mupepe]

nothing will bring back the hot chick i nailed 5 years ago.  but i can spank it to thoughts of her anyways.

[brawndolicious]

Just a personal note...a few years ago I had a woman who worked for me that use to have correspond with death row inmates.  She was really quiet and I thought maybe it was like some kind of sicko desire to get it on with a "dead man walking" kind of thing.  It turns out that she had an uncle who was executed in Alabama a decade ago or so.  Her uncle was one of the Vietnam veterans that fell through the cracks and had true mental problems....didn't matter during the trial though, the killed his ass anyway. 
People that support the death penalty shit should remember one thing...nothing will bring the victim back...nothing.

I agree, but I only support this happening to sociopaths with significant evidence against them.

[Oblivion]

Mupepe