40 GB, PS2 BC-less PS3 unveiled by SCEE (Update White 40GB PS3 for Japan @ 39,980 Yen - 11.11.2007)

[brawndolicious]

they're saving $20!

[Smooth Groove]

concerning BC, maybe it's a good idea that such support was beginning to be discontinued, because it just wouldn't be possible in the next generation of systems

So?  It's possible now.  Stop apologizing for Sony. 

[Mondain]

A democratically-priced yet fully functional system trumps all. I barely ever used the Xbox emulation functions of the 360, and didn't use the PS2 emulation and upscaling functions of the PS3 for that many games.

Most people wouldn't perceive any difference with PS2 upscaling or don't have a big high-resolution HDTV that would allow them to appreciate the difference, it's almost strictly a matter of convenience. Their existing slimline PS2 doesn't take that much space in the TV stand, although you have the hassle of keeping it connected to the TV.

Again, most people don't own lots of games, it's not like hardcore gamers who often own dozens and dozens of PS2 titles, so this is practically a non-issue. Mostly it's flamebait fodder for the xbot contingent.

[Smooth Groove]

GTFO, Mondain.  No one on EB hyped up the PS3's ability to upscale PS2 games more than you.  And BC probably benefits most gamers more than Blu-ray playback. 

[Mondain]

lots of videophiles and hardcore forum users care about PS2 upscaling, but next to no casuals

Blu-Ray is a major asset, recent Blu-Ray movie releases are very compelling, and once people see videos in HD on their shiny new set via HDMI they are often reluctant to go back to DVDs

[ferrarimanf355]

Is it me, or are there a lot more bannings at GAF since this announcement?

I don't pay attention to the gaming side anymore really, but there were a lot more when everyone began to realize that the PS3 was not going to be a juggernaut.

Well, that's what you get when one of the mods uses the handle "sonycowboy"... 

[Smooth Groove]

I love HD movies, both HD-DVD and Blu-ray but the selections are still mostly shit.  Also, most people can't tell much difference between upscaled DVD and HD movies.  At least, not enough to spend twice as much on a BD instead of a DVD. 

[Phoenix Dark]

what happened to the "one sku" plan?

Sony lol

[brawndolicious]

that is a one SKU plan.

[Ichirou]

Sony sucks.

[huckleberry]

Is this new 40GB sku going to come with a big red stripe on it to let people know that Sony have abandoned backwards compatibility?

[AdmiralViscen]

I can't believe the defenders of no BC. So much for Nfans taking the cake on putting corporation before user.

[huckleberry]

Is there no way that Sony can add BC through software later?  I am a technical 'tard so I don't know the answer.  If not....it really sucks.  It sucked when MS did it and it sucks now that Sony is doing it.

[AdmiralViscen]

Is it likely that no BC will be the case for all PS3s worldwide going forward? Or is it just going to be for the Euro market? That sounds weird, but apparently they aren't getting the 80GB either, so...

I'd like to get a BC PS3 in 2 or 3 years when it's $200 or so.

[Smooth Groove]

Is there no way that Sony can add BC through software later?  I am a technical 'tard so I don't know the answer.  If not....it really sucks.  It sucked when MS did it and it sucks now that Sony is doing it.

They could.  The PS3 is so much more powerful than the PS2 and Sony has access to all the PS2 hardware secrets.  PS2 emulators don't work so well on PCs yet because the programmers have to rely on reverse-engineering.  Emulated PS2 on the PS3 should be just as smooth as PSX on the PSP if Sony decides to put in the effort.  

I think they're just not promising Software BC now because they don't think it's worth the trouble to guarantee BC with the cheaper SKUs.  I think the 80GB PS3 is basically the same as the 40GB one, except for the HD size,  and the 80GB version still has software BC.  

[Van Cruncheon]

me and the wife couldn't tell any significant improvement with blu-ray and hd-dvd over upscaled dvds with a good transfer at 1080i.

[Smooth Groove]

me and the wife couldn't tell any significant improvement with blu-ray and hd-dvd over upscaled dvds with a good transfer at 1080i.

Yeah, transfer quality is equally important as disc capacity.  Some HD movies look pretty disapointing while some DVDs look incredibly sharp when upscaled. 

[AdmiralViscen]

Is there no way that Sony can add BC through software later?  I am a technical 'tard so I don't know the answer.  If not....it really sucks.  It sucked when MS did it and it sucks now that Sony is doing it.

They could.  The PS3 is so much more powerful than the PS2 and Sony has access to all the PS2 hardware secrets.  PS2 emulators don't work so well on PCs yet because the programmers have to rely on reverse-engineering.  Emulated PS2 on the PS3 should be just as smooth as PSX on the PSP if Sony decides to put in the effort. 

I think they're just not promising Software BC now because they don't think it's worth the trouble to guarantee BC with the cheaper SKUs.  I think the 80GB PS3 is basically the same as the 40GB one, except for the HD size,  and the 80GB version still has software BC. 

80GB still has the PS2 GPU, unlike the 40GB.

I really doubt Sony is going to bother setting up two versions of every game (for 80GB and 40GB owners). They'll just stick with what they already developed for the 80GB people. I just hope this BC drop isn't going to go across the line, that'd be totally gimped.

me and the wife couldn't tell any significant improvement with blu-ray and hd-dvd over upscaled dvds with a good transfer at 1080i.

Yea, I watched Gladiator on a 1080i TV (on my 360) and it looked fucking awesome, way better than most of my DVDs and just as good as Blu Ray IMO.

My Blu Ray owning friend tells me that Blu Rays with a bad transfer can look worse than that, so fuck it.

[etiolate]

Sony has gotten into the practice of making a gajillion SKUs for one product.  You every try to nail down the main Sony mp3 player? Theres tons of different models, with slightly different model numbers and slightly different looks, but no single mainstay or platform base.  Every Sony failure ends in Skumultiplicity. They need just one damned SKU and to stick with it. It would be different if they are upgrades, but these aren't upgrades, just variations. 

[Smooth Groove]

Sony has gotten into the practice of making a gajillion SKUs for one product.  You every try to nail down the main Sony mp3 player? Theres tons of different models, with slightly different model numbers and slightly different looks, but no single mainstay or platform base.  Every Sony failure ends in Skumultiplicity. They need just one damned SKU and to stick with it. It would be different if they are upgrades, but these aren't upgrades, just variations. 

In Sony's defense, the 360's multiple SKUs have been just as confusing and yet it's selling very well.  However, Sony needs to do a even better job than MS of informing its customers about the current models' BC capabilities or lack thereof.    With the 360, at least everyone knows that the BC is not very reliable.  In Sony's case, many new customers could possibly be pissed off when their PS2 games won't play on their PS3s because their friends' PS3s could do so perfectly.   

[cubicle47b]

Some movies like the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven look incredible upscaled to the native resolution of the TV.  I can still see a difference between the best DVD transfers and HD-DVDs, though, and sitting on the couch directly in front of the TV (6 feet from a 46" screen, we have two rows of couches with the back row on cement blocks - don't ask) can make most DVDs painful to look at.  My Happiness DVD with its non-anamorphic widescreen transfer makes me sad.

720p PS2 games was probably the most appealing thing about the PS3 for me.  Oh well.

[Smooth Groove]

Some movies like the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven look incredible upscaled to the native resolution of the TV.  I can still see a difference between the best DVD transfers and HD-DVDs, though, and sitting on the couch directly in front of the TV (6 feet from a 46" screen, we have two rows of couches with the back row on cement blocks - don't ask) can make most DVDs painful to look at.  My Happiness DVD with its non-anamorphic widescreen transfer makes me sad.

720p PS2 games was probably the most appealing thing about the PS3 for me.  Oh well.

The good thing is that many of the later "big" PS2 titles have native 480p rendering, which looks even better than upscaled 720p/1080P PS2 games on the PS3.  So those 480P supporting PS2 titles are better played on a PS2 anyways. 

Some of the HD transfers have been kinda disappointing for me.  I think it's a bigger problem with the older movies.  For example, Hot Fuzz in HD looked amazing while The Mummy barely looked much better than an upscaled DVD. 

[bork]

me and the wife couldn't tell any significant improvement with blu-ray and hd-dvd over upscaled dvds with a good transfer at 1080i.

You see the difference at 1080p. 

I didn't really see much of an improvement with blu-rays movies versus DVD movies at all on my 20 inch 1080i Bravia, but at on my in-laws' 46 inch 1080p Aquos, it was pretty obvious.

Oh, and maybe it's just the TV, but on the same Aquos, the PS3 looked *AWFUL* in 1080i on a big screen before changing it to 1080p.  I couldn't believe the difference.

[Oblivion]

Backwards compatibility is last gen. -Kaz Hirai


Seriously, it's dang frightening to see some of the people on GAF support this decision, with stuff like 'this is the best decision Sony has ever made' and whatnot. Not to mention the sudden reversal of the same people who bitched about sales age being the same ones now endorsing this.

[bork]

If the PS3 hadn't been BC from the beginning, this wouldn't even be an issue.  But anyone supporting the removal of a major feature from the system has lost their marbles.

[Ichirou]

Something funny.  Look at this moron's blog:

http://realdealgaming.blogspot.com/2007/08/ps3-has-no-games-putting-end-to-myth.html

"PS3 has no games?  Bitch, please!  With backwards compatibility, you can play all these awesome PSX and upscaled PS2 games! PS3 has a library of great stuff already built-in!"

Then, when the BC-less PS3 gets announced...

http://realdealgaming.blogspot.com/2007/10/40-gb-ps3-will-no-backwards.html

"PS3 with no backwards compatibility?  This is the greatest idea Sony has ever had!  You probably already have a PS2 anyway!"

lol fanboys

[drohne]

uh, wouldn't bc in combination with a reasonable price be a good way to draw in ps2 owners? and how much money does this really save them? it isn't even worth trying to understand sony's decisions

[Smooth Groove]

He changed his mind in two months?     Is it Kittonwy's blog?  He was talking about how rumble was useless until the new PS3 controller got announced,. 

[Ichirou]

I dunno who it is, it was posted on GAF by some guy praising his logic regarding the new BC-less PS3.

[Oblivion]

I dunno who it is, it was posted on GAF by some guy praising his logic regarding the new BC-less PS3.

Was it that justjohn guy? I think he said something like 'I wish this guy posted here' or something to that effect.

[Ichirou]

Yeah, pretty sure that was it.

[Himu]

I WAS GOING TO GET IT BUT IT HAS NO PS2 BC.

IT'S A NO SALE

[Synbios459]

Sony's new slogan should be "We finally did something right."

SO TRUE!!!!!

[TVC15]

To be honest, PS2 BC isn't really a huge feature for folks with HDTVs.  Upscaled PS2 is mostly not so hot, and everybody already has a PS2 anyway.

[Smooth Groove]

I don't think that many gamers really care that much about BC.  Granted, the majority of forum gamers would care a lot about playing their old games but most casual gamers just want to play a few games a year on their new system. 

With regards to PS3's upscaling abilities, I think I've mentioned before that PS2 games with native 480p support look nicer anyways without the upscaling.  Also, regardless of how you upscale a PS2 game, it will still look pretty bad on a HDTV. 

[Synbios459]

I've only bought & played one PS2 game since the PS3 came out (Odin Sphere), which looked OK on the PS3, so I agree it's not a big deal, but saying that, the component slots on my TV are all taken up now, so if I wanted to play PS2, I'd either have to change the cables or make do with shitty S-video or RCA. Also, this is more of a big deal for filthy poors who want to trade in their PS2 and get a cheap PS3. I agree with drohne - the people they are targetting with the price drop are the people who need the BC most. People who can afford to keep a PS2 on hand can afford a PS3 at full price.

.......Or buy a $20 component switcher.

[Smooth Groove]

.......Or buy a $20 component switcher.

Problems with that idea:
1. Japanese component uses D-connectors, not RCA plugs
2. Component switcher for $20?
3. They're ugly as fuck
4. What about the optical audio that goes to my amp?

There are optical audio switchers.  I don't think they're too expensive.  Also, it is possible to find a component switcher for $20.  You can even use one of those RCA (red, yellow, white) switchers with no problems. 

[MCD]

Optical selectors: http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-4685600-3154367?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=optical+selector&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

that's what i have:
http://www.amazon.com/Radio-Shack-15-1586-Digital-Selector/dp/B000MKG98K/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-4685600-3154367?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1191899020&sr=8-2

10 usd new under sellers.

[bork]

Groo lives in Japan, where it is NOT possible to find a D-Terminal component switcher for $20. 

Mine cost me a whopping 6000 yen, although Groo being the hardcore gamer that he is, this price shouldn't be stopping him; just buy one and stop complaining already dude!   

It's the HDMI switchers that are fucking outrageous.  I don't need one now, but I saw one for sale for around 20,000 yen.  WHAT.  THE.  FUCK.

If I end up moving back to the States next year, is it ever going to suck having to rebuy all the component cables again.  :/

[MCD]

Can't order online?

if he can't...goddammit, shit is really expensive over there.

[Smooth Groove]

How much is 20,000 yen in US dollars?  Not everyone here is/was a Japafag.  If you need a HDMI switcher someday, Patel recommended a website that sold one for $20.  Mupepe got one and said that it worked fine.  

[Ichirou]

About $160.

[Smooth Groove]

About $160.

To be fair, many retail stores in the US sell HDMI switchers for not much less.  But it's much easier to find cheaper ones online.  How are the internet stores in Japan? 

[bork]

Can't order online?

if he can't...goddammit, shit is really expensive over there.

For the third time: He needs a D-Terminal component switcher, which correct me if I'm wrong, is only used in Japan.  It's a different kind of connection; the picture is the same as component, but the cable is completely different.

The prices of electronics in Japan, "the home country" for a lot of this stuff, is insanely high sometimes. 

To be fair, many retail stores in the US sell HDMI switchers for not much less.  But it's much easier to find cheaper ones online.  How are the internet stores in Japan? 

I never see much of a savings, if any.

[MCD]

Ah, sorry lyte, i didn't understand the situation correctly.

[drohne]

monoprice sells cheap pushbutton hdmi switchers that do the job perfectly -- digital signal and all. with component switchers, you have to spend some money if you don't want picture degradation

[Mondain]

pictures of the little marvel








And Sony explains why they strategically decided to focus their ressources on PS3 features instead:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/customer-service/sony-could-run-bc-on-40gb-ps3s-they-just-dont-want-to-308467.php

The 40GB model, to be launched in Europe on 10th October, is a new model and is not equipped with any of the semi conductors from the PS2, and backwards compatibility would therefore have to be achieved by software emulation alone. The sheer numbers of PS2 titles available, together with the increased complexity of using a software only solution for each and every title means that to ensure accurate software emulation for the majority would be technically challenging, time consuming and costly. As we have mentioned on several occasions, our engineering resources are now focused on developing new and innovative features and services for the PS3 and, as a result the 40GB model does not have backwards compatibility with PS2 titles.

The current PS3 system software and future updates will continue to support backwards compatibility for the current 60GB and 80GB models, and publishers can check their new PS2 titles to ensure they play on the 60GB and 80GB models.

Keen gamers, for whom backwards compatibility is important, can still purchase the existing 60GB PS3 Starter Pack which contains an extra SIXAXIS controller, two first party titles and has extensive backwards compatibility with PS2 titles.

We've all seen how 360-emulated Xbox games are full of imperfections, bugs and small blemishes, and how it seems incredibly hard to take care of the whole back catalog. Now imagine with a colossal library like the PS2's. Considering that just about everyone owns a PS2 now and simply claimed for a cheaper PS3 for months on the Internet and elsewhere, this move seems very sound.

[Vizzys]

"little marvel"

anyway BC is a big deal imo

shame to see sony strip it

[Ichirou]

So that's what a complete rip-off looks like.  Good to know.

[MCD]

I see less front vents.

[bork]

I think if I lived in Europe I'd be fucking importing EVERYTHING.  Damn they got it bad.

[MCD]

Actually about that 360 emulation part, Xbox video card is Nvidia, while 360 is ATI.

different shit, not to mention MS did not bother to license the original Xbox hardware or some shit.

while Sony on the other hand have the license and the same video card company, Nvidia.

[Smooth Groove]

Mondain is hilarious.  He used to claim that upscaled PS2 games was God's gift to earth but now he thinks it makes sense to remove BC completely. What does the 360's crappy BC have to do with Sony's decision?  Sony claimed for a long time that BC was a major advantage that the PS3 had over the 360.  Now none of that "colossal" PS2 library can be played on the PS3.  
  
Also, why's it a little marvel?  Did they shrink the size?  I thought that they just removed some ports.  It actually would be kinda cool if removal of BC allowed them to shrink the PS2 by 25% or so but I haven't heard anything about it.  If Sony did that, the lack of BC would be a worthwhile tradeoff.  I actually like the look of the PS3.  It's a little bulky but the overall design looks nice. 

[Mondain]

it's a marvel because it puts the PS3 on the verge of a democratically-accessible pricing level

and Sony's japanese engineers are already planning a slim, fanless PS3, set to be released in a few years, they disclosed it in an interview done about PS3 firmware upgrades

this is BY FAR Sony's biggest asset for this generation, a cheap, Blu-Ray drive-equipped PS3 with a slim and sleek design to rivalize with the Wii and sell astounding amounts of copies to casuals

smallness and sleekness are part of an enormous fashion in electronics nowadays, much more than some 7-8 years ago, as proven by the continued success of Wii and slim PS2 hardware

this is much bigger than the combined might of Gran Turismo 5/Final Fantasy XIII/Metal Gear Solid 4/Singstar and others

[MCD]

Shit can't even read SACD!

[Mondain]

What. Games will always be the deciding factor. That's why PS1 killed the Saturn and PS2 won last gen.

Sadly, no, there are no Wii games. Sleek, tiny Ipod-looking hardware mattered far more than the inexistent quality software library.

[MCD]

What. Games will always be the deciding factor. That's why PS1 killed the Saturn and PS2 won last gen.

Sadly, no, there are no Wii games. Sleek, tiny Ipod-looking hardware mattered far more than the inexistent quality software library.

You do realize Wii is not only selling for that sleek ipod look, but for the Wiimote and it's mini games, right?

[brawndolicious]

yeah sony probably has a lot in warehouses from everybody waiting for the dualshock3.

[Mondain]

You do realize Wii is not only selling for that sleek ipod look, but for the Wiimote and it's mini games, right?

A trendy, small design is a huge asset these years regardlessly, and it affects the amount of media hype and free publicity that your product will get.

[bork]

No pack-in Dual Shock is NOT a surprise for Japan.

Is this PS3 gimped like the Euro version?