The only thing that's less important than BC is in-house software development

[AdmiralViscen]

Am I the only one who's wondering what MS is thinking with it's latest software strategy? No Crackdown 2 or PGR exclusivity, questionable Bungie exclusivity, no FASA.

They've got Rare, Ensemble, Lionhead, the Forza guys... what else?

This whole 'exclusive third party' thing has worked well this gen (until , Saints Row 2 Dead Rising 2, Lost Planet 2, etc invalidate it), with a console that edged out its competition by $200 and a full year of time. But is MS' current strategy really the best one going forward?

I'd have liked to see MS expanding its internal efforts, not reducing them. Sony's internal studios have grown by leaps and bounds over the last 10 years.

This is impossible to talk about at GAF.

[MrAngryFace]

BO BO BO BO

All I know is Nintendo soured me on First Party line-ups. First party always means 'same ol fukin mascots god damnit' Im kinda glad Halo is kinda done. I mean we got Halo Wars coming but while I love the games and the lore, im kinda done. THINGS NEED TO BE ALLOWED TO END

[AdmiralViscen]

ok

Internal devs can produce new shit. If Nintendo soured it, Sony proves it's still doable. If MS was moving towards rehashing, that should be a call to expand their studios, not shrink them.

[MCD]

The reason there is no Crackdown 2 is because the studio are already busy with 2 new projects or so i heard.

PGR is exclusive (IP owned by MS), it's just Bizarre will no longer work on it.

[BlueTsunami]

I think Internal software development is extremely important when it comes to really making a system shine as far as technical feats. Seeing as how lots of 3rd parties are taking a Multi Console approach this gen, I think 1st/2nd party dev houses will be real important when it comes to showcasing.

[MrAngryFace]

I dunno, I didnt find a whole lot of Sony's first-party shit that thrilling after Crash Team Racing. Most of the 60 or so ps2 games I own aren't internal. Then again im a jappy rpg guy.

[Smooth Groove]

I haven't played PGR4 yet but it looks excellent.  Most people also seem to love it so far but I don't think PGR sells enough copies for MS to make a large investment to keep it exclusive.  Same thing with Crackdown 2.  Crackdown 1 did very well but that was largely due to the lack of high quality sandbox games at the time.  MS is betting those games, regardless of their high quality, won't make a big difference in outselling Sony and they're probably right.  

[MrAngryFace]

I think Internal software development is extremely important when it comes to really making a system shine as far as technical feats. Seeing as how lots of 3rd parties are taking a Multi Console approach this gen, I think 1st/2nd party dev houses will be real important when it comes to showcasing.

Lol, that's what Capcom and Konami are for, Silly!

[MCD]

I haven't played PGR4 yet but it looks excellent.  Most people also seem to love it so far but I don't think PGR sells enough copies for MS to make a large investment to keep it exclusive.  Same thing with Crackdown 2.  Crackdown 1 did very well but that was largely due to the lack of high quality sandbox games at the time.  MS is betting those games, regardless of their high quality, won't make a big difference in outselling Sony and they're probably right. 

PGR series sells a lot more than Forza, series is aimed for the casuals, it's arcadey, thus sells more. 

and as i already said, PGR is exclusive.

[MrAngryFace]

Forza pissed me off, it made me question my ability to drive a car in real life. BALLS

[Smooth Groove]

I think Internal software development is extremely important when it comes to really making a system shine as far as technical feats. Seeing as how lots of 3rd parties are taking a Multi Console approach this gen, I think 1st/2nd party dev houses will be real important when it comes to showcasing.

I think that's just a GAF generalization that only exclusives matter.  Especially when the 3rd party games continue to shine on a platform that they don't support.  For example, Sony's own 1st party NBA game looks and plays like garbage compared to NBA live and 2k.  GRAW 2, R6:VEGAS are also some of the best looking games this gen despite being 3rd party.  

Forza pissed me off, it made me question my ability to drive a car in real life. BALLS

I have that same problem with Forza and Gran Turismo.   I know those games are not as realistic as those fanboys claimed because I can't even pull off the same turns that I can do in real life with the same freaking car. 

[AdmiralViscen]

The reason there is no Crackdown 2 is because the studio are already busy with 2 new projects or so i heard.

PGR is exclusive (IP owned by MS), it's just Bizarre will no longer work on it.

Right, but like any Halo FPS not made by Bungie, it's really not the same thing.

[MrAngryFace]

I dunno, you look at the sly cooper and ratchet and jak n daxter games, and those only lost direction with each release. R&C managed to get back on tract by copying the base gameplay of the original game (see R&C PSP).

While I know its impossible to drop popular licenses, I would at least like to see more variety.

[MCD]

Forza pissed me off, it made me question my ability to drive a car in real life. BALLS

Fucking Turn 10...

Also, i don't think MS need all these internal studios.

look at Gears for example, great game, great graphics, great sales.

basically MS needs to buy games instead of studios, like Gears as i already mentioned, Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey.

 

[AdmiralViscen]

I haven't played PGR4 yet but it looks excellent.  Most people also seem to love it so far but I don't think PGR sells enough copies for MS to make a large investment to keep it exclusive.  Same thing with Crackdown 2.  Crackdown 1 did very well but that was largely due to the lack of high quality sandbox games at the time.  MS is betting those games, regardless of their high quality, won't make a big difference in outselling Sony and they're probably right. 

But what are they replacing them with? Halo Wars annnnd.... A bunch of contracted exclusives. How much harder will those be to come by when PS3 becomes more viable? Devs might not be so willing to sign away their rights to port when PS3 has 10-20 million units under its belt, and is leading in Europe.

[brawndolicious]

you really need to wait until spring to judge what MS is going to do 2008 and beyond.

this haloday season MS probably kept a lot of OTHER shit under wraps.

[AdmiralViscen]

I dunno, you look at the sly cooper and ratchet and jak n daxter games, and those only lost direction with each release. R&C managed to get back on tract by copying the base gameplay of the original game (see R&C PSP).

While I know its impossible to drop popular licenses, I would at least like to see more variety.

But you're getting Resistance and Uncharted from those same studios.

And Ratchet 2 is better than 1, and 3 was not a disappointment even though it wasn't really in the same spirit as the others.

[AdmiralViscen]

you really need to wait until spring to judge what MS is going to do 2008 and beyond.

this haloday season MS probably kept a lot of OTHER shit under wraps.

I'm not dogging their 2008 lineup. But their 4 or so internal studios can't be working on too many surprises right now. And buying software on a game-by-game basis seems like a risky game to me.

[MrAngryFace]

I found Resistance to be kinda 'by the numbers', but I am excited about Uncharted. I think what im trying to say is that in the past I havent been impressed.

[Smooth Groove]

I haven't played PGR4 yet but it looks excellent.  Most people also seem to love it so far but I don't think PGR sells enough copies for MS to make a large investment to keep it exclusive.  Same thing with Crackdown 2.  Crackdown 1 did very well but that was largely due to the lack of high quality sandbox games at the time.  MS is betting those games, regardless of their high quality, won't make a big difference in outselling Sony and they're probably right. 

But what are they replacing them with? Halo Wars annnnd.... A bunch of contracted exclusives. How much harder will those be to come by when PS3 becomes more viable? Devs might not be so willing to sign away their rights to port when PS3 has 10-20 million units under its belt, and is leading in Europe.

There are reports that MS has been offered MGS and Final Fantasy but for a price.  Of course, MS's a little peeved about having to pay for the costs of PS3 development since Sony isn't paying a dime for those games to appear on a PS3.  However, MS might not have much choice if those Japanese companies continue to play hardball.  

[MrAngryFace]

you really need to wait until spring to judge what MS is going to do 2008 and beyond.

this haloday season MS probably kept a lot of OTHER shit under wraps.

I'm not dogging their 2008 lineup. But their 4 or so internal studios can't be working on too many surprises right now. And buying software on a game-by-game basis seems like a risky game to me.

Sony isn't in the best position to depend completely on a few software releases in 2008. PS3 as a console needs to offer something more. I mean they cant even back up their promise to create an online environment close to Live. I mean im one of those gamers who is tired of Final Fantasy and never liked MGS. Where does that leave me? The PSP is where it leaves me.

[Smooth Groove]

I found Resistance to be kinda 'by the numbers', but I am excited about Uncharted. I think what im trying to say is that in the past I havent been impressed.

Good thing you don't go to GAF anymore.  The Sony crazies at GAF are trying to convince people, almost by force, that Resistance is a better game than Halo 3.  

[MCD]

Well yeah, PGR5 might not be the same without Bizarre, but i doubt it will turn to shit.

we should wait before judging on that.

[MrAngryFace]

PS3 fans are going through what Nintendo fans have gone through for years, but without the legacy backing them.

[MrAngryFace]

Well yeah, PGR5 might not be the same without Bizarre, but i doubt it will turn to shit.

we should wait before judging on that.

Remember Amped 3? Ugh so bad. Amped 2 was godly.

[AdmiralViscen]

I just don't see how this 'buy one game/IP at a time' policy is the most efficient or safe course to go. Why not just spend that money to buy or develop a studio full of internal talent? Then you don't have to worry about the fanbase abandoning PGR5 for being a farmed out piece of shit. Or Capcom not being interested in limiting potential sales of Dead Rising 2, or the Crackdown guys telling you they're too busy, etc. etc.

And looking even further ahead, if the next XBox doesn't have the benefit of a one-year lead, it'll probably be hard pressed to get exclusives on the level of LP/DR, or even Saints Row and stuff.

The whole strategy just seems really shortsighted to me.

[MrAngryFace]

Well I never said the money side of things was handled correctly, but its possible the strategy is based around how things are handled competitively through the whole company. Whether or not this pans out is up for debate.

The real question is if this strategy succeeds on merit, or because the PS3 shot itself in both feet and dragged itself into a furnace.

[MCD]

Well yeah, PGR5 might not be the same without Bizarre, but i doubt it will turn to shit.

we should wait before judging on that.

Remember Amped 3? Ugh so bad. Amped 2 was godly.

Amped 2: Developed by: Microsoft Game Studios

Amped 3: Developed by: Indie Built

who knew Microsoft Game Studios can make good games.

[AdmiralViscen]

Then there's the big tentpole games that MS is guaranteed to be buying/creating forever, like Gears and Mass Effect.

Where is the XBox1 MS, that brought me (shitty) games like Oddworld, Azurik, Blood Wake, and that stupid wizard game? None of them were really that good, but I appreciated the variety. Now it seems that MS has no interest in funding non-gruff games, when having the opportunity to cherrypick their exclusives by contract. A wide pool of in-house devs might be more free to pitch some new kinds of shit. Is MS now satisfied with Rare shitting out a colorful game every year or two? That's it?

[MCD]

What happened to Blue Dragon? Eternal Sonata? Beautiful Katamari? Naruto 360?

even VP: Party Animals isn't from Rare.

[MrAngryFace]

I think this stage of this generation kinda demands the swinging around and focus on the big names. Its not really anyone's fault cept our own. The bulk of the gaming public move to these licenses and the gaming selection suffers for it.

I think with the odd demographic Wii is happy to inhabit, the death of one of the other two consoles will give some room for invention.

While the market can support three consoles I don't think it inspires the kinda of competition healthy for gaming.

[AdmiralViscen]

What happened to Blue Dragon? Eternal Sonata? Beautiful Katamari? Naruto 360?

even VP: Party Animals isn't from Rare.

ES and BK aren't exclusive (or is BK?). Is Naruto?

Too many third party exclusives seem to be incidental, based on 360's early release and current market share lead. Doesn't seem very forward thinking on MS' part.

[Smooth Groove]

MS has plenty of money.   I think they're just more cautious about spending it now because they felt like they got burned by the Rare acquisition.    Also, like MAF says, Sony's mistakes is allowing MS to be much more patient.  Everyone keeps saying that MS needs to be more aggressive but there hasn't been a need so far.  For example, Lair and HS have not been as good as expected while Bioshock and Halo 3 have delivered.  MS probably feels like they can continue afford to react to Sony's moves as long as the 360 continue to have the better lineup.  

[AdmiralViscen]

MS has plenty of money.   I think they're just more cautious about spending it now because they felt like they got burned by the Rare acquisition.    Also, like MAF says, Sony's mistakes is allowing MS to be much more patient.  Everyone keeps saying that MS needs to be more aggressive but there hasn't been a need so far.  For example, Lair and HS have not been as good as expected while Bioshock and Halo 3 have delivered.  MS probably feels like they can continue afford to react to Sony's moves as long as the 360 continue to have the better lineup. 

Right, and I think that complacency is distinguished mentally-challenged.

PS2 didn't let itself get comfortable like this, neither did PS1.

[MrAngryFace]

As good a position as MS is in with the 360, relative to the Xbox, this hasnt really been a graceful generation for anyone. Even the Wii which sells really well is almost shameful because of the lack of reasons to actually own it. For some reason praying upon stupid consumers seems disappointing.

This isn't to say everyone who buys it is buying it just to buy it, but god damn with as many units sold as there have been, its gotta be mostly true.

[MrAngryFace]

MS has plenty of money.   I think they're just more cautious about spending it now because they felt like they got burned by the Rare acquisition.    Also, like MAF says, Sony's mistakes is allowing MS to be much more patient.  Everyone keeps saying that MS needs to be more aggressive but there hasn't been a need so far.  For example, Lair and HS have not been as good as expected while Bioshock and Halo 3 have delivered.  MS probably feels like they can continue afford to react to Sony's moves as long as the 360 continue to have the better lineup. 

Right, and I think that complacency is distinguished mentally-challenged.

PS2 didn't let itself get comfortable like this, neither did PS1.

I think whats funny is that the console wars mirror the format wars. Like the bluray/hddvd squabble, the console wars are largely uninteresting and as time goes by, seem less and less important.

[MCD]

What happened to Blue Dragon? Eternal Sonata? Beautiful Katamari? Naruto 360?

even VP: Party Animals isn't from Rare.

ES and BK aren't exclusive (or is BK?). Is Naruto?

Too many third party exclusives seem to be incidental, based on 360's early release and current market share lead. Doesn't seem very forward thinking on MS' part.

Admiral, this generation is all about multiplatform.

and going multi = getting more money.

especially from Namco, they stated how they must sell 500k for a game or no profit is gained.

[AdmiralViscen]

This gen sucks. MS was the great white hope to be the next (creative era) Sony, but they're happy to sit on their ass with limpwristed price drops and non-risky software. And internal software cutbacks.

[brawndolicious]

you really need to wait until spring to judge what MS is going to do 2008 and beyond.
this haloday season MS probably kept a lot of OTHER shit under wraps.

I'm not dogging their 2008 lineup. But their 4 or so internal studios can't be working on too many surprises right now. And buying software on a game-by-game basis seems like a risky game to me.

it's probably not those studios they'll rely on, most likely they'll keep getting timed exclusives or exclusive content on their versions of big multiplatform games so that they spend this generation correctly creating a good brand image instead of just being a halobox to the general public.

wii is a very good party system and it has a gay name and it's restricted to a wagglewand, MS did not have that option.

[AdmiralViscen]

What happened to Blue Dragon? Eternal Sonata? Beautiful Katamari? Naruto 360?

even VP: Party Animals isn't from Rare.

ES and BK aren't exclusive (or is BK?). Is Naruto?

Too many third party exclusives seem to be incidental, based on 360's early release and current market share lead. Doesn't seem very forward thinking on MS' part.

Admiral, this generation is all about multiplatform.

and going multi = getting more money.

especially from Namco, they stated how they must sell 500k for a game or no profit is gained.

Yes, I know this gen is all about multiplatform. That's why I made a thread about how MS should be expanding its first party pool. Otherwise 360 (going forward) and 720 (in the future) are at risk for being redundant to its Sony competitor outside of Halo spinoffs.

Hoping for third parties to continue to pigeonhole themselves on 360 in the face of an exploding Wii and a possibly resurgent PS3 is stupid and short sighted.

[MCD]

Well, i think we will see the answer next year, with Alan Wake, Banjo 3, Too Human and Lost Odyssey.

as for this year, MS are very happy with their current line up and i doubt they will unveil anything new till next year.

 

[MrAngryFace]

I guess I just cant see why they shouldn't be confident just better on 3rd party the way things stand now.

1.) Wii focuses on games and gamers that are nothing like what devs have been raised to focus on.
2.) PS3 is thus far a big ol load of crap, with most if not all ports or shared titles looking slightly worse or offering less online implementation.

Sure things could change next year, its just as possible as anything else.

[brawndolicious]

well so far MS has had the ability to be less aggressive since the average gamer doesn't have a reason to choose PS3 over 360, it costs more.  after the last price drop, MS could pull out a bunch of exclusives by next E3.  could be new franchises, "sony" games, or multiplatform franchises.  I mean, I'm sure the last price drop lit a fire under their ass.

[MrAngryFace]

PS3 has crap for games, take it from me, a PS3 owner.

[etiolate]

Strong first party and strong third party coexisting hasn't happened since the 16bit days.  Third parties want weak 1st party, because they are generally scared of competition. It's just hard as hell to go up against any strong publisher month in and month out.  If Squarenix was publishing monthly or every other month, you might see other third parties bail from the console Squareenix is pushing.  Big, well known titles vs You sucks for You, as a dev.  EA is a bit of a different beast, because they mainly produce two types of software: Sports and Fastfood Software.  Fastfood software lasts about a week, so it's not a big threat and sports is an oversized niche really. 

For Nintendo, they lost 3rd parties and their userbase lost faith in those third parties.  So when those companies came back, and some with weak efforts, they didn't gain back that trust.  Generally, you look a monthly release list and you know Nintendo generally delivers. Others are questionable.  Capcom is the only company that comes with effort on every console they develop for.

For MS, they'll live by 3rd party because it weakens Sony.

For Sony, they tried to be Nintendo without being as strong software wise as Nintendo.

Though, if you're going to challenge a strong 1st party you got to be smart with releases.  Too often I see companies release their big titles right next to major 1st party releases and then watch as it gets overlooked. For the Wii, October was pretty wide open for a 3rd party to take the gut of sales. Granted, Halo 3 is the big release of the general time frame, but the Halo audience and Wii audience may not really steal from each other.  The only company taking advantage of this is Rockstar with Table Tennis and Manhunt both in October.  Capcom is releasing Zack n Wiki in October, which is mart considering its niche factor, but a game like Umbrella Chronicles could have really shone in October.  Instead, Capcom is releasing it right after Mario Galaxy, which is going to devour sales.

[BlueTsunami]

I think Sony has the right idea with the whole Edge thing they've got going with the PS3 (Sharing technical information mined form their 1st party Dev houses to 3rd party developers on the PS3). Though, I think thats more of a response to developers having issue coping with PS3 development than them actually trying to bring together developers on the PS3.

[Oblivion]

I just don't see how this 'buy one game/IP at a time' policy is the most efficient or safe course to go. Why not just spend that money to buy or develop a studio full of internal talent? Then you don't have to worry about the fanbase abandoning PGR5 for being a farmed out piece of shit. Or Capcom not being interested in limiting potential sales of Dead Rising 2, or the Crackdown guys telling you they're too busy, etc. etc.

And looking even further ahead, if the next XBox doesn't have the benefit of a one-year lead, it'll probably be hard pressed to get exclusives on the level of LP/DR, or even Saints Row and stuff.

The whole strategy just seems really shortsighted to me.

I agree with this quite a bit. MS and Sony are doing this gen. what Nintendo was mainly doing last gen.- paying third parties to make them games. Unfortunately, most of those games Nintendo paid for were garbage, unlike what most of the games MS (and to a lesser extent Sony) got. I always thought it would be a better idea for a hardware manufacturer to simply buy a company. The only additional cost would be paying for overhead (which I don't think is taken care of in a regular publishing deal, is it?).

Strong first party and strong third party coexisting hasn't happened since the 16bit days.  Third parties want weak 1st party, because they are generally scared of competition.

Er.. can't say I agree. That may be the excuse that quite a few publishers make -especially in relation to Nintendo- but it has no grounds in reality. Afterall, it's not like even Nintendo, who've for the past 2 years or so suddenly came out with hit after hit (units wise), don't release those games every month or something.

[Smooth Groove]

PS3 has crap for games, take it from me, a PS3 owner.

You'll enjoy your PS3 a lot more if you go to GAF.  Apparently, GT5 now looks like real life, Resistance is better than Halo (all 3) and the PS3 already has the best lineup ever in 2008.  If you disagree at all, then you're a troll that hates Sony. 

[Rman]

I think Sony's approach has been very healthy but now they are becoming more Nintendo, in that they are much more reliant on their 1st parties than ever before.  Most Sony fans mention first parties in list wars for the PS3 offerings.  I do like Sony's focus on creating new high profile IPs, though.  And this is Nintendo weakness.  Nintendo has created many new IPs, (Wario Ware, Brain Age games, Wii Sports, Play, Fit, Music, Chibi-Robo) but not much of those have appealed to the hardcore gamer.

From Sony we have seen LOLair, Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, Folklore, White Knight Story, although it was developed by L5.  Price, however, as we all know, is killing the PS3.

I love the 360 but I know many people who are turned off by it due to its "Halobox" image.  I find that funny since this fall we already have Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, and Lost Odyssey in the winter. 

[Mr. Gundam]

PS3 has crap for games, take it from me, a PS3 owner.

You'll enjoy your PS3 a lot more if you go to GAF.  Apparently, GT5 now looks like real life, Resistance is better than Halo (all 3) and the PS3 already has the best lineup ever in 2008.  If you disagree at all, then you're a troll that hates Sony. 

I'm not saying that the PS3 is without some big flaws, but the Evilbore groupthink concerning it isn't any better.

[demi]

PS3 has crap for games, take it from me, a PS3 owner.

You'll enjoy your PS3 a lot more if you go to GAF.  Apparently, GT5 now looks like real life, Resistance is better than Halo (all 3) and the PS3 already has the best lineup ever in 2008.  If you disagree at all, then you're a troll that hates Sony. 

I'm not saying that the PS3 is without some big flaws, but the Evilbore groupthink concerning it isn't any better.

Well, I'm sorry you disagree with our groupthink... enjoy your ban... FOREVER