Author Topic: Armenian Genocide Bill (meant to piss off Turkey?) (Read 2512 times)

brawndolicious · « **on:** October 14, 2007, 07:22:21 PM »

Recently, Pelosi has brought up a new house bill to label the 1915 killings of armenians by Turkey as a genocide saying that it's important to speak out against genocide even if it's this late because even right now there's a genocide in Darfur and recently there was one in Rwanda. It may also be a move to put political pressure on Turkey to stop support for the Iraq war. One thing to note is that Pelosi is from California where there's a lot of Armenians so it could be a favor for a political partner. In the past, this resolution passed by much larger margins (it was 27-21 now) because politicians knew republicans wouldn't let this come to the floor. As in, it's "for real" now.

As you all probably know, Turkey is a key ally in the Iraq war. Turkey said that if the killings of Armenians during WW1 is labeled as a genocide, they'll be very pissed off. They have already recalled their ambassador and threatened to cut logistical support for the US because of this so obviously, it is a bit serious.

The Bush administration said that damaging relations with a key ally would be a bad thing, but back in 2001 he made statements to members of the Armenian National Committee (ANC) reaffirming his campaign pledge to "ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people." but I guess he didn't plan going to war.

While I agree with calling it a genocide, the timing is definitely a bit underhanded.

The House will vote on it before Thanksgiving. Could it be an election issue for 08?

Gay Boy · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:24:27 PM »

There was a genocide, who cares if it pisses off Turkey. They should recognize they committed a holocaust.

BlueTsunami · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:26:26 PM »

I can't believe we need to pass a fucken bill to recognize something like this. SO.FUCKEN.STUPID

brawndolicious · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:26:53 PM »

I know, it's the reason that Pelosi's bringing it up NOW that could make large problems, particularly in Iraq.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »

Quote from: am nintenho on October 14, 2007, 07:26:53 PM

I know, it's the reason that Pelosi's bringing it up NOW that could make large problems, particularly in Iraq.

It really shows how clueless the democrats are. Yes there was genocide, but this is simply bad politics. Pissing off Turkey right now is not a great idea. No matter how bigoted and wrong they may be on this, it's not worth it. It'll look bad to the public, but who cares.

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:40:24 PM »

WWI was quite possibly the dumbest war of all wars

FlameOfCallandor · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:40:37 PM »

This shit happened 100 years ago. What a waste of taxpayer money.

brawndolicious · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:42:05 PM »

it's not that simple PD. they have to put pressure on the republicans and force out some of the bad shit they have done (not acknowledge this.) it's underhanded but currently, their main goal is to win the presidential election and then at that time they can figure out how to take care of the president's problems.

bdoughty · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:46:26 PM »

Quote from: FlameOfCallandor on October 14, 2007, 07:40:37 PM

What a waste of taxpayer money.

Something you will hear often if a Democrat wins the Presidency.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:47:18 PM »

Quote from: am nintenho on October 14, 2007, 07:42:05 PM

it's not that simple PD. they have to put pressure on the republicans and force out some of the bad shit they have done (not acknowledge this.) it's underhanded but currently, their main goal is to win the presidential election and then at that time they can figure out how to take care of the president's problems.

It's dirty politics that puts foreign policy at risk; all this does is make it look like they're more concerned with 2008 (as you point out) than the current Iraq situation. This bill serves absolutely no purpose but to start a meaningless battle on the hill while a real one goes on thousands of miles away.

I mean, would it have been good politics to point out Stalin's murderous history at Yalta, and declare him a genocidal maniac? Sometimes its best to take advantage of your situation the best you can, and worry about political correct-ness and image later

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:50:41 PM »

I think what it comes down to is that while the definition may be JUST, it may not be practical to saddle a completely different generation with crimes of the past.

brawndolicious · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:56:44 PM »

I'm wondering if this could vetoed? if it does, then that guarantees it would be an election issue but if it's passed, the republicans might be able to get little changes made to it (say it was possibly an accident, lower the number killed, etc.) and end up not having the Turks kick us out.

FlameOfCallandor · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:25:39 PM »

Quote from: Cocky Funny on October 14, 2007, 07:50:41 PM

I think what it comes down to is that while the definition may be JUST, it may not be practical to saddle a completely different generation with crimes of the past.

Holy shit!!!! Someone on Evilbore, actually said something that made sense!

Ichirou · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:29:04 PM »

MAF, nobody's saddling today's generation with crimes of the past. The problem is that Turkey denies there was a holocaust and actually jails people in Turkey who dare speak of it, charging them with insulting Turkey (which is actually a crime in that country).

As for myself, I wanted to wait until this bill passed to post a thread on it, just to rub it in Holocaust-denier Powerslave's face.

BTW, 40 states in the US have already recognized the Armenian genocide.

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:29:55 PM »

Im not saying its not a good idea, im just saying its a complicated choice beyond just feeling good about ourselves.

FlameOfCallandor · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:30:40 PM »

This is about as stupid as the freedom fries law circa 2003

brawndolicious · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:31:50 PM »

yeah ichirou, I felt it was important now because of the political consequences it could have.

Powerslave · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:43:31 PM »

Quote from: Ichirou on October 14, 2007, 08:29:04 PM

As for myself, I wanted to wait until this bill passed to post a thread on it, just to rub it in Holocaust-denier Powerslave's face.

I dont give a shit about this. You can go eat a dick for all I care.

brawndolicious · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:58:41 PM »

you see, I didn't want this to turn into a thread about eating dick.

Powerslave · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2007, 09:00:46 PM »

Quote from: am nintenho on October 14, 2007, 08:58:41 PM

you see, I didn't want this to turn into a thread about eating dick.

But we can't promise 'No Homo'

Ichirou · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2007, 09:30:10 PM »

Quote from: Powerslave on October 14, 2007, 08:43:31 PM

Quote from: Ichirou on October 14, 2007, 08:29:04 PM
As for myself, I wanted to wait until this bill passed to post a thread on it, just to rub it in Holocaust-denier Powerslave's face.

I dont give a shit about this. You can go eat a dick for all I care.

Of course you do.

I agree with MAF that this probably isn't the best time for this and is probably politically motivated. Then again, it's something that should have been done decades ago. It's hard not to sympathize with the marginalized Armenian community that's struggled with having this recognized for decades. It's gratifying to see them succeeding worldwide. I wish Turkey would just accept it so everybody could move on.

Mandark · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2007, 09:32:26 PM »

Good intentions, counterproductive, doesn't really change much.

What I don't get about this is why Turkey doesn't admit the Armenian genocide. It happened under the Ottomans, and Turkey's current government derives from the Kemalist movement that opposed the Ottomans, right?

Mushy feelings aside, they should be able to acknowledge the genocide for cynical propagandist reasons. "Yes, it was awful, and another reason why our glorious Turkish nation is better off without the yoke of the Ottomans etc."

Gay Boy · « **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:27:40 PM »

The issue SHOULD be why is Turkey refusing to admit it rather than not wanting to upset Turkey.

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #23 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:33:28 PM »

ideals and politics dont ACTUALLY go hand in hand

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:43:06 PM »

Quote from: Weighted Companion Cube on October 14, 2007, 11:33:28 PM

ideals and politics dont ACTUALLY go hand in hand

This cube's intelligence is off the charts.

btw, when is the US going to apologize for slavery?

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #25 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:46:57 PM »

When is PD going to apologize?

Ichirou · « **Reply #26 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:48:54 PM »

Yeah, I dunno, when IS PD going to apologize?

BTW, what happened to Father_Mike? I just noticed he hasn't been around in a while. Did he get banned again so he could concentrate on studying or something?

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:50:43 PM »

You guys have to apologize to me though, that's no fair :'(

Ichirou · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:51:33 PM »

Why do I have to apologize? None of my ancestors were involved in slavery at all.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:52:28 PM »

APOLOGIZE

Ichirou · « **Reply #30 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:56:40 PM »

Okay. I'm sorry none of my ancestors were in the slave trade, or I might have inherited millions of dollars and been a member of a wealthy patrician family, like Strom Thurmond's.

HAPPY NOW?!

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #31 on:** October 14, 2007, 11:59:23 PM »

Nah. Give me some reparations, preferably cash

Ichirou · « **Reply #32 on:** October 15, 2007, 12:12:02 AM »

Nah. You give me that stuff. $2.50.

Candyflip · « **Reply #33 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:15:10 AM »

Quote from: Gay Boy on October 14, 2007, 07:24:27 PM

There was a genocide, who cares if it pisses off Turkey. They should recognize they committed a holocaust.

.

I thought the USA as a whole recognized this as a genocide in the first place? I remember it being in one of my high school history books a couple years ago.

Quote from: Weighted Companion Cube on October 14, 2007, 07:50:41 PM

I think what it comes down to is that while the definition may be JUST, it may not be practical to saddle a completely different generation with crimes of the past.

If we're labeling events that happened over 100 years ago then it should not matter to Turkey in the slightest. Fuck those oversensitive pricks if they cease friendly relations over something so trivial. The only real reason to even call it a genocide is to preserve historical accuracy.

Ichirou · « **Reply #34 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:21:06 AM »

40 states have officially recognized it. I think the US pretty much acknowledges there was a genocide, there just hasn't been an official announcement regarding it.

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #35 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:29:04 AM »

Present-day Turks are not blameworthy for the atrocities Turkey committed eighty years ago. However present-day Turks (not all of them) are blameworthy for denying the atrocities of eighty years ago. Such a bill would be pointless only if Turkey acknowledged historical facts. It is only because Turkey denies the genocide that such a bill would even be considered. For instance, there is no need for a House Bill that names the killing of the Jews a Holocaust because Germany does not deny that it happened. In fact denying the Holocaust is a crime in Germany. The situation is upside down in Turkey where acknowledging the Armenian Holocaust is a crime.

(I don't think either should be a crime but I don't want to get on a tangent)

Quote from: FlameOfCallandor on October 14, 2007, 08:30:40 PM

This is about as stupid as the freedom fries law circa 2003

What law? While Republicans in charge (Bob Ney et al.) forced House cafeterias to rename French fries to freedom fries there was no law created.

Quote from: Mandark on October 14, 2007, 09:32:26 PM

What I don't get about this is why Turkey doesn't admit the Armenian genocide. It happened under the Ottomans, and Turkey's current government derives from the Kemalist movement that opposed the Ottomans, right?

A Jew who doesn't understand ethnic nepotism?

Ichirou · « **Reply #36 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:31:56 AM »

At this point, denying it has become so ingrained into the patriotic aspect of the culture that even turks who don't live in Turkey get offended when you mention the historical fact of the Armenian genocide (See: Powerslave).

Mandark · « **Reply #37 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:42:35 AM »

I get Turkey's ethnic/cultural identity dating back well before the national identity, like how Iranians consider themselves the heirs of pre-Muslim Persia. But at some point, the Turkish elites have to figure that denying the genocide doesn't really help them, and blaming the Ottomans (as contrasted with Attaturk) seems like a pretty convenient out.

Maybe there's a domestic political benefit, like conservatives in Japan or the US wanting to downplay the ugly parts in history textbooks. Or maybe it's a symbolic point in Turkish-Armenian relations, but as far as I know (not far) Turkey's attitude towards the genocide is the reason they're hostile in the first place, so that'd be pretty circular.

edit: Ichirou's explanation sounds super-plausible to me.

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #38 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:53:03 AM »

*gasp* dumb evil stuff in WWI?!?!

Flannel Boy · « **Reply #39 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:54:48 AM »

Quote from: Weighted Companion Cube on October 15, 2007, 02:53:03 AM

*gasp* dumb evil stuff in WWI?!?!

What's your point?

I don't see it.

MrAngryFace · « **Reply #40 on:** October 15, 2007, 02:55:50 AM »

SHUT UP SPHERE!

brawndolicious · « **Reply #41 on:** October 15, 2007, 04:25:13 AM »

well it's obvious that it's meant to piss off Turkey, I doubt Turkey would withdraw support though.

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Author Topic: Armenian Genocide Bill (meant to piss off Turkey?) (Read 2512 times)