Author Topic: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?  (Read 3981 times)

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TVC15

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Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« on: November 10, 2007, 01:05:18 AM »
Hey folks,

Truth be told, DW Gundam is the first Musou game I have gotten into since either 3 or 4 (I forget which one I played a lot of--I think it was 3).  Although I have owned and played a bit of all the main series games (no Empires or XL or Samurai Warriors, just plain ol' DW), getting into 3 and playing it till my fingers went numb was enough Musou to last me for a long ass time.

Now, reviews are mostly bullshit because they are content to say SAME OL DW AGAIN when that is not quite the case.  True, the series gets tons of sequels, and naturally this means it doesn't have much time to evolve between iterations, but it is in error to say that the game has been the same every time.  The biggest improvement between the game I originally got into (I'm just going to say 3, because I think that was it) and the Musous I am playing now is that missle weapons have not only been de-emphasized, but you don't have to deal with a hideous first person mode at all (it's not present at all in Gundam, and I am fairly sure the same is true for Orochi).  Believe it or not, that's a major improvement.

That's the nature of the improvements.  Incremental improvements for a series with many sequels.  Graphics get a little better with each outing, and growth and customization options also improve with each iteration.

But yes, we have had this discussion before, about reviews for DW being bullshit.  As Prole will attest, there are legitimate complaints to be had with the series that Ziffies and GIers are apparently too distinguished mentally-challenged to recognize; things that are so obviously wrong and have had many opportunities to get corrected, but still sit kinda broken.  And that's what this thread is for.

1) The camera.  Easily the biggest offender.  Cameras in games have made strides over the years, but the DW camera is still stuck at the beginning of the 32 bit generation.  The camera is completely dumb and doesn't do anything on its own, except in cutscenes.  This is. . .really bad.  We are gaming in a time when there is no excuse to be hitting the camera recenter button ever 5 seconds.  Whether using the recenter button to implement a simple z-targeting system, or putting in a smart, predictive camera based on attack and combo patters, any attempted change would probably be seen as an improvement at this point. 

2) Level design.  Again, hasn't evolved since the very first game.  Outdoors, indoors, you basically get the thrilling room-corridor-room design recently ripped off by such brilliant games as Folklore.  Oh, and don't even think of environmental interaction.  No.  I said don't think about it.  So stop it.

3) Story/localization.  Two problems here, actually, but it's easier for me to roll them into one.  First of all, this one has gotten better over the past 2 years, but that may just be because we haven't gotten a vanilla DW game lately.  The stories. . .man, Koei, you GOTTA mix things up.  I understand that you are exploring new territory with stories with Orochi and Gundam and SW, but although they are different, they may as well be the same.  I have no idea if the stories are just incoherent, or if the localization is just that cheap, but I have no fucking clue what's going on in these things, and the cutscenes are typically so embarassing that my balls shrivel up inside me when I try to watch them.  The english VA is abominable.  The stories are dumb.  And I never want to hear the words "Yellow Turban" used in a videogame again, got it?

Let's hear you guys bitch some now.
serge

Smooth Groove

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 01:09:33 AM »
Why did you start another DW thread, taco? 

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 01:09:55 AM »
3 is a non-issue for me -- the games could be about smurfs beating up faeries and i'd still play it compulsively; that's just how gay i am for the mechanics in these games. besides, they aren't really supposed to be coherent -- they presume you are familiar with the source material. their biggest crime and their biggest appeal is that they are total fanservice. as a fanboy for the rot3k novels, i like seeing their reimagining of characters and events and battles. i assume the same is true for maf and gundam.

1, yeah, and the same for 2. supposedly, dw6 fixes these two things. well, it definitely fixes 2. 1 is up in the air. i'm so used to using the right stick to spin the camera that i honestly am not terribly bothered by it, although i don't disagree that it'd be nice to see it NOT give me a view of xiahou dun's ass when it hits a wall.
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 01:20:29 AM »
in fact, i don't think you've presented the real complaints fans might have with the series, which are:

1) bad off-screen combat resolution algorithms -- why can one peon wipe out your general and his full retinue? why has that not been fixed since dw5? you can go to the map to check on generals, but that really interrupts your groove.

2) bad or non-existent cancel mechanics for juggles, dw gundam excluded. getting caught in a series of boss juggles means game over.

3) orochi and sw2 in particular suffer from fixed scenario objectives that require trial-and-error to discover the proper sequence of events to trigger. dw gundam has a bit of this, but it also has the base-driven supply mechanics of dw5.

4) poor feedback on morale gain/loss and its effect on performance. in orochi, morale almost seems irrelevant, since fixed events totally change the flow of battle.

i say this, btw, having put more time into orochi warriors than any 360 game to date. i am a fucking WHORE for these games, and i love the tactical elements that these games offer (do i cap bases or do i chase down a general; do i pop an event or do i clear this area first; what is the optimal route in this battle), as well as the great clashes of generals on the harder difficulties.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 01:32:27 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

The Sceneman

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 01:26:32 AM »
Ive just been playing Warriors Orochi for the past few hours. (Orochi himself just handed my ass to me  :'() Im a relative musou n00b so my opinion is pretty much moot but I think the game would benefit from more variety of moves (zany grapples etc.) for each individual character and Tekken style button string combos.

Oh yeah and blood. And vehicles. And car stealing
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 01:28:24 AM »
blood WOULD be nice, but at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want and i'll keep buyin' 'em

also, MORE variety? the characters already have a good variety of useful moves! x-strings, with y-finishers for just about every situation, shoulder bumper specials, launchers and air combos, dashing and diving attacks, ranged attacks --what more do you need? this isn't a fighting game; it's about crowd control and tactical melee.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 01:30:11 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 01:29:03 AM »
Quote
2) bad or non-existent cancel mechanics for juggles. getting caught in a series of boss juggles means game over.

This is how Char killed me last time.  Since then, I got an item that prevents POWER DOWN though, so I can't get stunned anymore, which was also a big big problem.
serge

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 01:30:53 AM »
dw gundam has the boost cancel, though. orochi? nothing but PAIN.
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 01:39:15 AM »
the empires games are pretty big divergences in mechanics, as well. there are no fixed events or story -- in a battle, you have to make a supply line to the boss by capping a sequence of bases and hold it against a strict time limit. add in some decent strategic province management and army recruitment phases, and you have a really, REALLY good mix of the rot3k games and dw classic. it's very sandboxy.

dw3 was pretty simplistic compared to the latest iterations. the one big misstep the series made was the "duels" in 4 -- the generals got HUGE power and blocking ability boosts in 1-on-1 confrontations. on the other hand, 4 started the supply line mechanics that 5 refined. 5 also added proper branching event trees, codified charge attacks as finishers for attack strings (and added branching attack strings), and emphasized supply management moreso than morale.

lastly, the sw games tossed out base capping altogether and went with really strict branching event-driven battles. i'm not so fond of this, since it means a LOT of trial-and-error on difficult maps, although it keeps variety up. morale seems like a totally worthless metric in these games -- my morale can be almost zero, but if i kill the boss, i win anyway.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:11:46 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

Synbios459

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 01:40:39 AM »
Online co-op.
...

Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 01:46:43 AM »
i REALLY liked the "special" attacks introduced in SW 2, where each character had 2 semi-unique abilities that could be activated in about the length of time of a charge attack.  I also really dig the horse whistling of Orochi, those were some huge additions. 

Not having played DW 6 yet, (so if this is present then w00t im happy) i'd like to see more unique combo strings/character specific move sets, that actually get you playing each character in a different way, or at least a more significantly different way.

Juggle limit would be nice, but thats a double edged sword, and honestly, isnt the real solution to stop being a bitch and letting yourself get juggled?

More environmental interaction would be killer, i know 6 added swimming and ladder climbing, that can be HUGE depending on how they use it.

I'd like to see some combination of items and the skill system in the future.  It's fun to build up your character, but its also fun to get a running start when you already maxed out the last dude and wanna blow through another.  Orochi handled this alright with the pooled XP you could use on anyone, but i'd like items too.

I'm so behind on my musou, i dabble in about 4 of them at the moment, while i systematically clear DW5

-----to the people worried about removed characters in 6- wait till extreme legends


TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 01:46:58 AM »
dw gundam has the boost cancel, though. orochi? nothing but PAIN.

Eh, the boost cancel gets you into trouble a significant portion of the time.  You boost as you are falling, but you recover right into the path of the general that knocked you down in the first place, and everything happens so fast that the general is still in the middle of the same combo he originally knocked you down in.  So you boost, get knocked back down, sometimes boost again, sometimes get knocked down again.  It's not auto recover into ass kicking mode.  More often than not you seem to boost right into trouble.
serge

Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2007, 01:48:52 AM »
dw gundam has the boost cancel, though. orochi? nothing but PAIN.
nevermind misunderstood, is that the term for the air recovery?

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2007, 01:49:55 AM »
i think the class (PWR/TEC/SPD) just affects stat growth? i haven't noticed any significant speed increases with SPD class characters.
duc

Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2007, 01:51:35 AM »
i think the class (PWR/TEC/SPD) just affects stat growth? i haven't noticed any significant speed increases with SPD class characters.

it gives you a general idea of the attack patterns, and and it affects some other things too.  pwr dont get stunned by arrows and get thrown out of atttacks etc, like they were wearing musou armor iirc.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2007, 01:52:33 AM »
ah, okay. i never noticed, although i found the designations really arbitrary -- like why is a ninja like nene a PWR character?
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2007, 01:56:50 AM »


:bow :bow :heartbeat :heartbeat :bow :bow
duc

Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2007, 01:58:31 AM »
ah, okay. i never noticed, although i found the designations really arbitrary -- like why is a ninja like nene a PWR character?

Holy shit check your manual, theres a bunch of extra moves


speed guys get these extra attacks to chain combos, dash jumps, and aerial escapes mid combo

power gets hyper armor, and a special musou bar eating power attack

tech gets critical hits, counters, and the ability to enhance attacks with the r1 button mid combo, like some sort of crazy gunblade shit or something.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2007, 02:00:26 AM »
yeah, i knew about SPD and dash jumps (best way to cross a map) and the combo cancels. didn't know the rest. manuals are for chumps!

:heartbeat warriors orochi :heartbeat
duc

TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2007, 02:04:01 AM »
Can anyone tell me the difference between armor and defense in Gundam Musou? 

serge

TVC15

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serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 02:11:48 AM »
DW honestly perfectly captures the show. I was playing tonight and had to save someone from Haman but I had to race there from across screen. So I arrive on the scene and fire my blaster at Haman's back while she's fighting Kamielle and right before it hits her she thrust to the side and charges me. That was so cool. All the ace fights feel like the show, and the game is still kinda challenging even with a maxed out charaters cause some of the juiced up Ace fights demand complete control of your gundam. With practice you can boost out of any situation, but frantic boosting will get you killed pretty fast.

In short, my favorite DW ever I think.

Armor is health, defense is your defense rating. They should have called armor like...Systems or something I dunno.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 02:13:40 AM by Jim Shorts »
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2007, 02:14:18 AM »
so defense is basically, uh, armor -- i.e. the bit that reduces the damage taken?
duc

MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 02:15:10 AM »
Yeah. "armor" is your health gauge. Finally maxxed out Domon's gundam tonight, forgot just how much boost gauge that fucker has. With elite boost skilll equipped he'd be the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 02:16:46 AM »
well, it makes sense if i think of it in musou terms, where defense has always been the damage reduction modifier. duh.
duc

MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2007, 02:18:54 AM »
<a href="http://www.dw5xl.com/"><img src="http://www.koei.com/dw5xl/war/zhuge.jpg" alt="Dynasty Warriors 5 Xtreme Legends - ZHUGE LIANG" width="288" height="360" border="0"></a>
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2007, 02:19:53 AM »
Generally the failing of a Gundam comes down to its core systems tho.
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TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2007, 02:23:48 AM »
Thanks for the explanation.  I feel kind of dumb for not catching that, lol.
serge

Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2007, 02:26:09 AM »
<a href="http://www.dw5xl.com/"><img src="http://www.koei.com/dw5xl/war/lu_bu.jpg" alt="Dynasty Warriors 5 Xtreme Legends - LU BU" width="288" height="360" border="0"></a>


:O

TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2007, 02:28:43 AM »
BULLSHIT!  You tried to get Lu Bu!
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2007, 02:30:18 AM »
Thanks for the explanation.  I feel kind of dumb for not catching that, lol.

Well I HAVE spent 36 hours playing it lol
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TVC15

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2007, 02:47:24 AM »
I'm up to 6!  5 of those are from today!
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2007, 02:51:32 AM »
Nice, you learn fast!
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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2007, 05:06:27 AM »
BULLSHIT!  You tried to get Lu Bu!

no lies!

bork

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Re: Fine tuning Dynasty Warriors: What changes need to be made?
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2007, 08:48:59 AM »
Dynasty Warriors 6 is out here tomorrow, and is supposed to have a bunch of changes (including basic stuff like swimming and climbing ladders!  HOLY SHIT IT'S ABOUT TIME), with some of the combo system changes coming from DW Gundam.  Characters have also been overhauled and many have brand new weapons.  You can also do grab moves now.  It sounds like the game might be the first true step forward in a while.

EDIT: Wow, GameFAQs actually comes through, for once:

Quote
+For the first time, you are able to swim in water and climb latters. The actual usefulness in these features during battle, is unknown.

+Most characters are getting a weapon upgrade or change. Every character is getting new movesets and looks.

+Horses can be selected pre-battle, and have experience like in SW2.

+Combo system is totally changed. Basic attacks are now an infinite repeating combo - think Gundam Muso at a high level but never ending. The number of moves before the loop repeats is determined by the level of that new extra gauge, (from level 1 ro 3, then infinite).

+Charge moves, rather than changing depending on where the basic moves are interrupted, are now also just a different, stronger combo of moves which also adds extra moves as the guage increase.

+Pressing basic attack or charge while holding block does a new close "grab" style move.

+System of picking up items that increase defense, attack etc. perminantly by defeating bosses seems to be gone. Characters gain experiance in real-time and can level up during the battle.

+Equipping weapons remains, but not sure about items. Rather each character now has a complex skill tree with multiple branches from which different paths appear to be able to be selected / moved along.

+Rather than killing gate defenders most gates how have to be smashed through using attacks.

+Press down on the directional pad when on foot to call your horse over to you. From looking at your map your horse "teleports" in out of physical sight but nearby and then runs up.

+Enemies seem to drop less health.

+It seems all characters now attack on one side of the horse.

+Duels have returned. Instead of being isolated in a unknown place, like in DW4, you duel in the middle of battle with the officer while the troops create a circle around you.

+The Renbu System (See below)

The newly introduced combo system, Renbu, allows players to connect together an unlimited amount of attacks! Quick attacks, a powerful attack, and an avoiding attack. And with the cool kung-fu motions, the player can execute the attacks in many situations!

1. The gauge and rank.

The 2 above, the gauge and Renbu rank, are displayed in the bottom left corner. The gauge corresponds to the gauge itself. And the number corresponds with the gauge as well.

The Renbu ranks up when the gauge becomes full. How this is achieved is simply by attacking the enemies.


2. The relationship between the number of Renbu and the Renbu gauge itself.

The number which is displayed as uv is the number of Renbu. This number shows how many times the player has continously fought the opponents. Bearing in mind, the higher the number, the quicker it will rise. Making the number rank up even further.


3. The basic style of Renbu.

Attacking the player strongly, with a strong attack, makes the number reset. And will also make the gauge fall.

The recommended style of play is to attack the enemy without stopping. How you will do this is by forcing the enemy attacks to a halt and by using the avoiding technique, allowing you to progress without receiving damage.


4. Additional Information.

There is a limit at the start, and that is the number 2. The rank will rise as you progress through the game using that character. However, there is an item which allows the rank to rise up past the limit.


5. Individual character special skills.

By obtaining an item which appears during any battle, the player can use his or her special skill. Each character has his or her own unique move. It enables a stirring forceful attack which is different from normal attack and critical attacks.

2 of those characters as seen in the latest scan, Zhao Yun and Lu Xun, have these attacks:

Zhao Yun's is Shinsoku which means God speed. It enables him to dash for a certain amount of time. But that's not it! He can also use strong moves that can only be used during this dash!

Lu Xun's, Kakei, a fire stratagem, produces pillars of flaming fire for a limited amount of time on the battlefield!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 08:53:13 AM by lyte edge »
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