Author Topic: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...  (Read 4346 times)

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Phoenix Dark

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Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« on: November 21, 2007, 02:49:25 AM »
Cheebs let me borrow the DC, and I just reached the intermission. So far I'm impressed. Despite seeing the TC some months ago I was able to tell where new scenes had been added. While the TC starts with a confusing mess of scenes, the DC really weaves them together while adding material, thus making it more coherent. For instance, the added scenes that fully expound on the wife offer much insight into Bloom's character.

Another interesting note is that it seems like Scott hides Bloom through much of the film. He's not required to do much early on, and as the movie progresses his inability to show any type of emotional variation doesn't detract too much. Bloom has mastered a rather interesting sad puppy look which he uses no matter what's required in a particular scene. So far I can only remember a few scenes where he seemed to show any emotional vitality - perhaps the most overt example occurs when he first meets the king in Jerusalem and realizes he is a leper. The face he musters actually reminded me of a similar scene in Fellowship of the Ring when Legolas realizes a balrog has been awoken; as a fan of the book I always loved that small detail, but now I'm going on a tangent.

Another quick note: the writing is great. It's witty without betraying the time period in which the film occurs, and also saturated with theological references that manage to be thought provoking instead of preachy.

I'm going to eat some oatmeal and then put the second disk in
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 02:52:48 AM »
Directors Cut is almost a different movie. Count yourself lucky you saw it first.

Edit: Nevermind, I didnt read your post. I really dont read anyone's post. If I dont have a reply from reading the first sentence fuck it.
o_0

Himu

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 02:53:45 AM »
I saw the TC when it came out and it was meh. when I saw the DC I was amazed  how different it was. I mean, the TC was so forgettable...
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 02:54:35 AM »
The TC is like blacking out a lot
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 03:00:57 AM »
The Kingdom of Heaven director's cut is an amazing movie.  I enjoyed the theatrical cut, but you could tell SO MUCH was missing.  The only thing that detracts from it is Orlando Bloom and his inability to emote.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 04:39:01 AM »
Just finished it. I can honestly say this is one of the best films I've seen in a very long time. While some of the flaws that originally plagued the TC remain - such as a few weak performances - overall the film as a whole is simply stunning. It's simply epic

I won't fully review it right now because it's almost 4am, and because I'm feeling torn. I'm a LOTR fan boy to the bone...but after watching Kingdom of Heaven I'm kind of thinking that it's better. As a fan boy I've given each of the Rings movies perfect scores outside of the TTT, which I'd give a 9.5. And if Kingdom of Heaven is better...yeah. DECISIONS

And damn, this is the type of movie I REALLY want to see in HD.
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 01:43:07 PM »
I WANT to see the TC after reading about the differences.  It sounds like they cut out about a full third of like, the actual plot.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 04:10:29 PM »
The movie makes little sense in the TC :(
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 04:13:24 PM »
The movie makes little sense in the TC :(

Yeah, I know.  Reading the cuts in the Wiki, I was repeatedly saying stuff like, "How could they cut that?  That makes like a significant portion of the movie irrelevant!"
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 04:15:01 PM »
A lot of motivations are just left out so not only does it kill the soul of the movie, but it makes it confusing. Its funny, if you watch Scott at the beginning of KoH DC he's just fucking PUMPED to have it put together, but then you see some of his other 'extended cut releases' I think black hawk down was one of them..or some other movie, but he was like 'yeah some stuff was added...you might like it....uhh here you go'
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 04:21:52 PM »
Yeah, I think you said Gladiator was like that.
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2007, 04:28:51 PM »
Yeah! That's the one, I dunno if he had anything before the BHDown Dir Cut
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2007, 07:26:34 PM »
Do you guys like Gladiator? Some dude on GAF said it was the "worse" film to ever win best picture, which I thought was laughable. It's not a bad movie, but not amazing either.
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2007, 07:28:12 PM »
Do you guys like Gladiator? Some dude on GAF said it was the "worse" film to ever win best picture, which I thought was laughable. It's not a bad movie, but not amazing either.

Forrest Gump is worse!

I like Gladiator, but I do think it is somewhat light fare to win best anything.  Well, maybe a cinematography award.  I, for example, think Kingdom of Heaven DC is about 3 times the movie Gladiator is. 
serge

Smooth Groove

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2007, 07:46:14 PM »
I agree that Gladiator was overrated but I don't know if it's any worse than Titanic as a best picture winner.  Maybe my expectations were too high for Gladiator after hearing about how awesome it was, but it just didn't do anything for me, in terms of story or action. 

MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 07:47:32 PM »
Gladiator was a really good fun modern blockbuster, but its extended cut edition is yuk.
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CajoleJuice

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2007, 07:54:37 PM »
I love Gladiator. But some of that probably has to do with it being (I think) the first R-rated movie I saw in theaters. The 13 year old me was so blown away by the awesomeness. Still one of the best theater experiences I've ever had.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 09:35:29 PM by CajoleJuice »
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drozmight

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2007, 08:15:09 PM »
KoH DC  :bow
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2007, 09:33:28 PM »
Gladiator is a fun movie, just not particularly deep or anything.  Still exciting after all these years.
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2007, 09:34:45 PM »
I would get Gladiator in HD.
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 11:53:30 PM »
Gladiator was a really good fun modern blockbuster, but its extended cut edition is yuk.

For real?  I was thinking of getting it at some point.  Theatrical edition's the way to go, eh?
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2007, 02:49:37 AM »
iirc the stuff added in gladiator really didnt add a lot to the movie.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2007, 04:02:35 AM »
mini review..

At its heart Kingdom of Heaven is really a story of redemption. It's not a simple action flick with some nudity thrown in, which seems to be what Fox wanted (thus the TC). It is romantic and political, thrilling and thought provoking. Bloom's character Balian seeks to repent for his sins as well of those of his wife, who commits suicide - by becoming a holy knight. This goal is achieved rather quickly in the film after Balian's estranged father returns and takes him under his wing. It seems like Balain is taught a few things and BAM he's a knight, but as the film progresses it becomes clear that being a knight is far more than just being a good fighter. It is a spiritual and moral commitment, one of selflessness and honor. Interestingly many of the more tested knights in the film are devoid of these moral characteristics; they aren't interested in protecting the people or keeping any type of oath. Instead they demonstrate a level of religious fanaticism still seen today in many (but certainly not all) Christians and Muslims. It's fueled by a disturbing lack of understanding or respect for those of different viewpoints. This political drama between Balain and the lords of Jerusalem is absolutely engrossing, and perhaps more interesting than the action to me.

Along with redemption, compassion and understanding are major themes. I thought the film did a great job of having a social message without feeling preachy. In the film the area where Christ was killed is buried deep in the city, almost as an after thought compared to the larger bureaucratic structures littered throughout Jerusalem. I found it metaphorical, for the Church of the crusades wasn't concerned with anything that Christ preached, and instead was solely focused on senseless war carried out by selfish men. On the other hand Balain seeks to understand his enemies and treat them like humans. They may be of a different religion, but that does not determine whether they deserve to die. The film really reminded me of my problems with organized religion. In so many cases the organization becomes more important than the message. People wind up going to church three times a day and attempting to physically validate their own alleged righteousness thought works - totally oblivious to what the faith should actually be about.

Technically the film is pretty impressive. The environments seem visceral and authentic; CGI is used solely to compliment this feel, not to manufacture a period of time. And the cinematography brings everything to life beautifully. Battles are shot well overall, but there are instances where the editing confuses things a bit. I also noticed a mixture of sped up action and slow motion - somewhat like 300, but not nearly as stylized. While the action scenes are definitely superior to Gladiator in terms of "action", I'd say Gladiator's battles were shot better overall. They are definitely brutal, and more similar Braveheart than LOTR.

The score perfectly compliments the cinematography also. Once again, you get the feeling that it's realistic, perfectly fitting the period piece. There's definitely a lot of variation in it, for at times it feels almost operatic, while at other times subdued.

If I were to make any criticisms I'd start with some of the acting. As I said earlier Scott does a great job of hiding Bloom, not requiring him to emote too much. Yet it still seems odd that a character as emotionally complicated as Balian would be played by someone with such limited range. There are also some strange scenes with generally great actors like Jeremy Irons and Liam Neeson where their acting doesn't seem to match the physical state they're attempting to portray. Neeson especially: we're to believe he's mortally wounded and on the edge of death, his voice extremely weak...yet his face suggests he's simply got a bad cold or something. But that's nitpicking, for overall both performances are great. Edward Norton as the Christian king especially stands out despite him wearing a mask. His first scene is simply brilliant, in part due to some amazing writing; like Balian, Norton's character stresses understanding while constantly fighting against the religious fanaticism which grips his kingdom.

Overall the film is simply amazing. At more than 190 minutes it is a very, very long film, yet it doesn't really drag much; in fact, outside of the last few minutes which seem a bit repetitive there are no pacing issues.

9.5/10...

So yes, I WAS WRONG. I'm anticipating Nottingham now, hoping for lighting to strike twice (well three times) for Scott with epic historical period pieces. In the meantime, I owe Blade Runner a second chance...
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 01:43:47 PM by Phoenix Dark »
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2007, 04:10:41 AM »
It's probably one of my modern favorites.  The fucking elf is the only weak link, and like you said, they deal with him well.  He's really not even that bad.  It's not like he's a horrendous actor or anything, he just clearly doesn't have the experience or range to be dealing with such a role.  He's not terrible, he just doesn't fit well.
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2007, 05:35:38 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but apparently Scott wanted Paul Bettany for the lead but Fox wouldn't go for it, so he decided on Bloom, whom he'd worked with before on Black Hawk Down and who Fox thought was a marketable star in a big period epic.

The problem with Bloom is that he has no range.  All he can do is furrow his brow and look vaguely preoccupied by something and speak with a sense of urgency.  I didn't buy his grief for his wife at the beginning of the movie because he didn't really make me feel it.  He's definitely the weak link of the movie (though I'm not particularly fond of the score either), and it bothers me more every time I see it (going on 5 or 6 times already, and I saw the theatrical version twice in theaters).  Still a 9/10 film for me, definitely.  Scott's best movie since Gladiator, and obviously a personal project for him.  A sort of meditation on faith and God more than a historical picture.

BTW, lightning has already struck three times for Scott on historical pictures.  Please watch his first movie, The Duellists.  It is a perfect movie, and maybe my favorite of his.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 05:38:13 AM by Ichirou »
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2007, 05:48:09 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but apparently Scott wanted Paul Bettany for the lead but Fox wouldn't go for it, so he decided on Bloom, whom he'd worked with before on Black Hawk Down and who Fox thought was a marketable star in a big period epic.

The problem with Bloom is that he has no range.  All he can do is furrow his brow and look vaguely preoccupied by something and speak with a sense of urgency.  I didn't buy his grief for his wife at the beginning of the movie because he didn't really make me feel it.  He's definitely the weak link of the movie (though I'm not particularly fond of the score either), and it bothers me more every time I see it (going on 5 or 6 times already, and I saw the theatrical version twice in theaters).  Still a 9/10 film for me, definitely.  Scott's best movie since Gladiator, and obviously a personal project for him.  A sort of meditation on faith and God more than a historical picture.

BTW, lightning has already struck three times for Scott on historical pictures.  Please watch his first movie, The Duellists.  It is a perfect movie, and maybe my favorite of his.

I think it's his best since Alien.  Gladiator and Blade Runner are both good, great movies. but Gladiator doesn't have as much depth as the other two, and the DC of Blade Runner still feels somewhat disjointed.  Maybe the final cut will make me think differently, but I think I might just be programmed to like historical movies more than scifi, love of Dick notwithstanding.
serge

Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2007, 05:54:51 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but apparently Scott wanted Paul Bettany for the lead but Fox wouldn't go for it, so he decided on Bloom, whom he'd worked with before on Black Hawk Down and who Fox thought was a marketable star in a big period epic.

The problem with Bloom is that he has no range.  All he can do is furrow his brow and look vaguely preoccupied by something and speak with a sense of urgency.  I didn't buy his grief for his wife at the beginning of the movie because he didn't really make me feel it.  He's definitely the weak link of the movie (though I'm not particularly fond of the score either), and it bothers me more every time I see it (going on 5 or 6 times already, and I saw the theatrical version twice in theaters).  Still a 9/10 film for me, definitely.  Scott's best movie since Gladiator, and obviously a personal project for him.  A sort of meditation on faith and God more than a historical picture.

BTW, lightning has already struck three times for Scott on historical pictures.  Please watch his first movie, The Duellists.  It is a perfect movie, and maybe my favorite of his.

I think it's his best since Alien.  Gladiator and Blade Runner are both good, great movies. but Gladiator doesn't have as much depth as the other two, and the DC of Blade Runner still feels somewhat disjointed.  Maybe the final cut will make me think differently, but I think I might just be programmed to like historical movies more than scifi, love of Dick notwithstanding.

 :-*

Have you seen The Duellists, TVC?  I think you would love that.  Based on a short story by Joseph Conrad, takes place during the Napoleonic era, and is about two French officers who have a personal feud and end up dueling numerous times throughout their lives.
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2007, 05:57:15 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but apparently Scott wanted Paul Bettany for the lead but Fox wouldn't go for it, so he decided on Bloom, whom he'd worked with before on Black Hawk Down and who Fox thought was a marketable star in a big period epic.

The problem with Bloom is that he has no range.  All he can do is furrow his brow and look vaguely preoccupied by something and speak with a sense of urgency.  I didn't buy his grief for his wife at the beginning of the movie because he didn't really make me feel it.  He's definitely the weak link of the movie (though I'm not particularly fond of the score either), and it bothers me more every time I see it (going on 5 or 6 times already, and I saw the theatrical version twice in theaters).  Still a 9/10 film for me, definitely.  Scott's best movie since Gladiator, and obviously a personal project for him.  A sort of meditation on faith and God more than a historical picture.

BTW, lightning has already struck three times for Scott on historical pictures.  Please watch his first movie, The Duellists.  It is a perfect movie, and maybe my favorite of his.

I think it's his best since Alien.  Gladiator and Blade Runner are both good, great movies. but Gladiator doesn't have as much depth as the other two, and the DC of Blade Runner still feels somewhat disjointed.  Maybe the final cut will make me think differently, but I think I might just be programmed to like historical movies more than scifi, love of Dick notwithstanding.

 :-*

Have you seen The Duellists, TVC?  I think you would love that.  Based on a short story by Joseph Conrad, takes place during the Napoleonic era, and is about two French officers who have a personal feud and end up dueling numerous times throughout their lives.

No, but the whole setup sounds intriguing.  It sounds like the movie was made for me.  I love historical movies.  I love France.  I hate America. I love Joseph Conrad. And I love Ridley Scott.

EDIT:  AND IT HAS HARVEY KEITEL?  DOES HE SHOW HIS DONG!!!???
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2007, 06:18:40 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but apparently Scott wanted Paul Bettany for the lead but Fox wouldn't go for it, so he decided on Bloom, whom he'd worked with before on Black Hawk Down and who Fox thought was a marketable star in a big period epic.

The problem with Bloom is that he has no range.  All he can do is furrow his brow and look vaguely preoccupied by something and speak with a sense of urgency.  I didn't buy his grief for his wife at the beginning of the movie because he didn't really make me feel it.  He's definitely the weak link of the movie (though I'm not particularly fond of the score either), and it bothers me more every time I see it (going on 5 or 6 times already, and I saw the theatrical version twice in theaters).  Still a 9/10 film for me, definitely.  Scott's best movie since Gladiator, and obviously a personal project for him.  A sort of meditation on faith and God more than a historical picture.

BTW, lightning has already struck three times for Scott on historical pictures.  Please watch his first movie, The Duellists.  It is a perfect movie, and maybe my favorite of his.

I agree; as I said earlier. There are a couple scenes where he's supposed to be grieving his wife - one where he's just sitting in his dark house, and another where he's at her grave. In both cases he has this distant, blank look. That might work for a serial killer, but it certainly doesn't portray the emotion of a man who lost his child and wife in the same week. And you're spot on with respect to him having an "urgent" face at times.

He's certainly not a horrible actor, and while I have criticized his role in this movie it's not like Reeves in Dracula or something. Bloom is best when he's in a supportive role; part of POTC III's failure is that it focuses far too much on Bloom's character, and he just isn't compelling enough.

Outside of Bloom the cast is spectacular. I am a huge sucker for films in medieval and/or fantasy settings. Hell, I actually sat down and watched Prince Valliant on AMC for a considerable amount of time yesterday; it was extremely cheesy and laughable, but I couldn't tear myself away. And I was surprised there was dialogue in the film; I half expected a 2 hour film with Morgan Freeman or someone narrating.

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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2007, 06:26:16 AM »
Yeah, I don't even think Bloom deserves the pretty boy hate that he gets.  Yeah, he's a pretty boy now, but despite being outclassed, he didn't ruin Kingdom of Heaven.  He still held his own, sort of. That's still saying something.  Maybe when he gets older, he'll mature into a good actor, and we'll all look back at KoH as a stage of his evolution.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2007, 06:31:48 AM »
It certainly helps that the film was saturated with veteran actors. Bloom has worked with some heavy weights in a very short period of time. Ian McKellen, Jeremy Irons, Liam Neesen, etc etc etc. Plus he's worked with Ridley Scott and Peter Jackson. He'll get better no doubt

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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2007, 06:34:01 AM »
KoH is a KILLER HD movie, too, btw.  It's a gorgeous looking movie.  That's probably what kick-started my whole history phase.
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Takuan

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2007, 10:40:21 AM »
mini review..

At its heart Kingdom of Heart...
Stopped reading there. Your initial post has convinced me to see the movie, though.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2007, 01:44:11 PM »
mini review..

At its heart Kingdom of Heart...
Stopped reading there. Your initial post has convinced me to see the movie, though.


I wrote that at like 4am :lol
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bud

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2007, 01:50:08 PM »
before i saw the movie, i didn't even know norton was in it, so it was a nice surprise to see him play the king. norton :bow

i saw the tc, btw, and it wasn't that bad, really. i hated it the first time i saw it--i was expecting a gladiator-like movie lol--but it was ok the second time through. i'll still definitely watch the dc, though, someday--probably on blu-ray.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2007, 02:32:57 AM »
Yeah this movie really made me wish I had an HD-DVD player.
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2007, 05:31:12 AM »
No Harvey Keitel dong in The Duellists, unfortunately.  Great movie nevertheless!
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TVC15

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2007, 05:46:45 AM »
No Harvey Keitel dong in The Duellists, unfortunately.  Great movie nevertheless!

Well, you're going to hate me, but you know I'm good for it.  I just DLed it.  I will watch it tonite or tomorrow.  When a good release is available, I will purchase it.
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Ichirou

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2007, 05:57:39 AM »
The DVD is actually a really good release and has a bunch of extras (including a director's commentary, an interview with Ridley Scott by the director of The Count of Monte Cristo and Kevin Costner's Robin Hood, and a student film by Scott), but I don't care whether you buy it as long as you watch it and like it. :D
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brawndolicious

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2007, 11:32:10 PM »
I would get Gladiator in HD.
pretty much every ridley scott movie would look better in HD.

BlueTsunami

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Re: Looks like I was wrong about Kingdom of Heaven...
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2007, 02:42:28 AM »
KoH is a KILLER HD movie, too, btw.  It's a gorgeous looking movie.  That's probably what kick-started my whole history phase.

I came into this thread thinking about KoH in HD. I may rent it tomorrow and watch it after some of the Football games.
:9